Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:05 pm

I just can't see Super Saiyan Blue boosting their power from a 6 to a 7. It's such a pitiful boost for a form.

I'd say it at least doubled their power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:17 pm

Bullza wrote:I just can't see Super Saiyan Blue boosting their power from a 6 to a 7. It's such a pitiful boost for a form.

I'd say it at least doubled their power.
Look at Super Saiyan Grades 2 & 3, which are weaker than Super Saiyan 2 that gives a x2 boost. Super Saiyan Blue isn't even supposed to be an entirely new form, it's a new upgraded version of regular Super Saiyan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:26 pm

But a 10-20% boost? It's paltry, especially considering Frieza knew that Goku was holding back, his unnerved and surprised reaction to when Goku turned into a SSJB and then him acting so cocky around Vegeta until he turned into a SSJB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:32 pm

Bullza wrote:But a 10-20% boost? It's paltry, especially considering Freeza knew that Goku was holding back, his unnerved and surprised reaction to when Goku turned into a SSJB and then him acting so cocky around Vegeta until he turned into a SSJB.
Not paltry for DB where a minuscule difference in power lets you bitch slap around your opponent with complete ease.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by saunasolmu » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:36 pm

Maybe it's that the higher the power level, the harder it is to make the same relative gains.

A regular guy who runs 100 meter in 20 seconds can easily cut 10% of his time with some training. A professional sprinter who runs it in 10 seconds can never hope to achieve 10% improvement, that'd completely crush the world record.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:51 pm

Not paltry for DB where a minuscule difference in power lets you bitch slap around your opponent with complete ease.
I don't place any importance on that kind of thing. People always mention Vegeta and Cui or Dodoria but there's been greater differences between characters and they've still been more evenly matched.

I've seen people say that SSJB Goku or Vegeta can't be lower than 7 because they're supposed to be able to match Beerus.

Yet Goku and Piccolo had a power level a third of Raditz' and they still beat him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:07 pm

Bullza wrote:I don't place any importance on that kind of thing. People always mention Vegeta and Cui or Dodoria but there's been greater differences between characters and they've still been more evenly matched.
Not if you only go with the manga numbers.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:55 pm

Bullza wrote:
Not paltry for DB where a minuscule difference in power lets you bitch slap around your opponent with complete ease.
I don't place any importance on that kind of thing. People always mention Vegeta and Cui or Dodoria but there's been greater differences between characters and they've still been more evenly matched.

I've seen people say that SSJB Goku or Vegeta can't be lower than 7 because they're supposed to be able to match Beerus.

Yet Goku and Piccolo had a power level a third of Raditz' and they still beat him.
But with Raditz there are also a lot of circumstances for how they beat him: Gohan interfering, Raditz's obvious tail weakness, Piccolo's powerful Makankosapo. When they fought him hand to hand they stood no chance, but still manged to come out on top due to stuff neither side where really taking into account at first (Gohan being so powerful and stopping Raditz from killing Goku, Piccolo using his trump card and especially Goku DYING)

Vegeta vs Cui or Dodoria or Zarbon are different, since even though the gap was small, they stood no chance, as if they might as well have been in the hundreds' number wise.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:30 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Not if you only go with the manga numbers.
Dodoria doesn't have any manga numbers. Most characters don't.

When it comes to comparing close PL numbers, all the manga really offers is Kaio-Ken Goku versus Vegeta, and Vegeta versus Kwi. Both of which have substantially more than just "A > B" going on with them, so they're hardly proof of any idea or approach about comparing powers.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:35 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
  • Base Goku managed to destroy the huge energy ball from the merged ki blasts from SS Goku & Beerus with a punch, while he could barely hold it as a Super Saiyan (who was as strong as Super Saiyan God).
  • Base Goku & Vegeta survived hits from Beerus at full power.
  • Beerus was interested in fighting base Goku & Vegeta after seeing that they have gotten stronger than they were before.
  • In the manga, base Goku survived a ki blast in the face from SSB Vegeta.
Most of these situations were obviously miracles, unless you think Base Goku is stronger than SS Goku. Heck, in the 3rd, Beerus is aware they can transform and become stronger as Super Saiyans, but even so Goku discards the idea. As far as I've seen, Goku doesn't know Beerus was lying when they fought.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:38 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Not if you only go with the manga numbers.
You don't consider Daizenshuu numbers?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:56 pm

Here's a simple question for you all because I'm curious.

Who here thinks current base Goku is equal to (or stronger than) SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. What reason do you have to believe that?

And who thinks current base Goku is comfortably weaker than SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. Again what makes you think that?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:44 pm

Kaboom wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Not if you only go with the manga numbers.
Dodoria doesn't have any manga numbers. Most characters don't.

When it comes to comparing close PL numbers, all the manga really offers is Kaio-Ken Goku versus Vegeta, and Vegeta versus Kwi. Both of which have substantially more than just "A > B" going on with them, so they're hardly proof of any idea or approach about comparing powers.
Wow, I thought that Zarbon's & Dodoria's numbers came from the manga for some reason. My bad.
Hugo Boss wrote:Most of these situations were obviously miracles, unless you think Base Goku is stronger than SS Goku.
Of course base Goku isn't stronger than SS Goku, but his feat shows that base Goku can't be significantly weaker than SS Goku.
Hugo Boss wrote:Heck, in the 3rd, Beerus is aware they can transform and become stronger as Super Saiyans, but even so Goku discards the idea. As far as I've seen, Goku doesn't know Beerus was lying when they fought.
It was the power that Goku & Vegeta showed at that moment in their base form that made Beerus wanting to fight them though.
Noah wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Not if you only go with the manga numbers.
You don't consider Daizenshuu numbers?
I do, unless if I feel that they are contradictory. Nappa's 4000 for example is impossible to be true IMO.
Bullza wrote:Who here thinks current base Goku is equal to (or stronger than) SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. What reason do you have to believe that?
In BoG, Beerus says that Goku's power didn't decrease significantly after he lost SSG, and made no mention of any power boost about his SS form. Base Goku also fought as good, if not better, than SSG Goku did at full power against Beerus. In the FnF manga, we see SSG Goku behind base Goku when he attacks Whis, which implies IMO that base Goku is as strong as a Super Saiyan God. Dragon Ball Heroes also calls the powered-up base Goku from FnF a Saiyan that has surpassed God.

As I mentioned before, Super has even more indications that this is the case:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
  • Base Goku managed to destroy the huge energy ball from the merged ki blasts from SS Goku & Beerus with a punch, while he could barely hold it as a Super Saiyan (who was as strong as Super Saiyan God).
  • Base Goku & Vegeta survived hits from Beerus at full power.
  • Beerus was interested in fighting base Goku & Vegeta after seeing that they have gotten stronger than they were before.
  • In the manga, base Goku survived a ki blast in the face from SSB Vegeta.
The only things against this idea is base Goku almost dying from Beerus' full power ki blast (which should be perfectly possible even if Goku is a 6 & Beerus is a 10, based on what we've seen in the manga), Whis' tree comparison (which doesn't have to be taken that literally IMO), and Super Saiyan being stated to be useful enough to keep them from not dying during Whis' training (but we aren't told exactly how useful it would have been). The last two also come from Super only, so they can be ignored IMO if they seem too contradictory since they are not Toriyama's.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:19 am

Well we know base Goku is Incredibly powerful but I wouldn't say all those things necessarily mean he's as strong as he was as a SSJG.

We've got Goku questioning if Vegeta was stronger than himself after he'd trained for 6 months. So Vegeta would have gone from a 1 to a 6 in 6 months but then with another 4 months of training and him obtaining a new form he then only went from a 6 to a 7.

There's Whis' comparison of them to Beerus.

Like I said earlier, Frieza knew Goku was holding back and yet still acted unnerved when Goku turned into a SSJB.

There's a weakened Golden Frieza who couldn't even hurt SSJB Goku being confident that base Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance.

Then the idea of this new SSJB form giving the most pathetic boost in power of all time and that surely not being the intention.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:41 am

Bullza wrote:Well we know base Goku is Incredibly powerful but I wouldn't say all those things necessarily mean he's as strong as he was as a SSJG.

We've got Goku questioning if Vegeta was stronger than himself after he'd trained for 6 months. So Vegeta would have gone from a 1 to a 6 in 6 months but then with another 4 months of training and him obtaining a new form he then only went from a 6 to a 7.

There's Whis' comparison of them to Beerus.

Like I said earlier, Freeza knew Goku was holding back and yet still acted unnerved when Goku turned into a SSJB.

There's a weakened Golden Freeza who couldn't even hurt SSJB Goku being confident that base Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance.

Then the idea of this new SSJB form giving the most pathetic boost in power of all time and that surely not being the intention.
Trust me, a 25% difference is HUGE. Way larger than you'd think! Remember this is the Godly Ki world where 25% can equal hundreds of billions/trillions on the power level scale. Trust me. All the things stated by the guy above me is true. There's more evidence to suggest that Base Goku is as strong as SSJG then he is not.
Well for what it's worth.
I've got 1% Beerus>Super Vegito (Buu Arc) now if we go by that. (And assuming it's true ofcourse) then 15% of Beerus means over 15 Super Vegito's Difference! Between SSJG Goku (60%) and SSGSS Goku (75%)
And we all know how high Super Vegito's Power Level is..
Obviously in the HIGH Billions at the least! And that's at least 15 times as much as a difference.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:35 am

Hugo Boss wrote:I think Piccolo and Gohan are too far from Shisami and close to Tagoma on your list. Can't you consider something around 60,000?

Any reason for not following the official Super Saiyan multiplier?
There wasn't anything shisami could do to non powered-up gohan.
.
.



As for super saiyan multiplier , gohan can just not follow it, as SS is just a way to bring him closer to his ultimate self. His super saiyan form didn't seem to be even around 7-8x , let alone 20x or 50x.

Goku & vegeta used SSB, which was a huge boost, so their multiplier is larger
Chillekasper wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:Shisami - 40,000
Tagoma - 100,000
Ginyu - 120,000
Piccolo - 80,000
Gohan - 80,000, SS 400,000 , FP - 500,000 (ultimate/mystic)
Freeza - 530,000
Final form freeza - 4 Million
Golden freeza - 120,000,000
Base god goku - 5 Million
SSB goku - 100,000,000 (20x)
Krillin / ten - 15,000
Roshi - 2000


Scale : Freeza FP = 120 million
And Gotenks? 100.000?
Gotenks is definitely above ginyu, around 200,000 seems fine. He can't be very far off gohan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:42 am

Bullza wrote:Here's a simple question for you all because I'm curious.

Who here thinks current base Goku is equal to (or stronger than) SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. What reason do you have to believe that?

And who thinks current base Goku is comfortably weaker than SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. Again what makes you think that?
Base goku is between SS BoG goku & SSG BoG goku. His ki was said to be bigger than ever in the fight vs freeza.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:05 am

Bullza wrote:Well we know base Goku is Incredibly powerful but I wouldn't say all those things necessarily mean he's as strong as he was as a SSJG.
But these feats & statements place him really close to SSG, if not above it by the time FnF happened.
We've got Goku questioning if Vegeta was stronger than himself after he'd trained for 6 months. So Vegeta would have gone from a 1 to a 6 in 6 months but then with another 4 months of training and him obtaining a new form he then only went from a 6 to a 7.
Vegeta didn't make normal gains, he drew out his dormant SSG powers, that's why he got so powerful all of a sudden.
There's Whis' comparison of them to Beerus.
Which doesn't say much, other than Beerus been much stronger than Goku & Vegeta.
Like I said earlier, Freeza knew Goku was holding back and yet still acted unnerved when Goku turned into a SSJB.
Of course he did, it's a big increase in power.
There's a weakened Golden Freeza who couldn't even hurt SSJB Goku being confident that base Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance.
Freeza wasn't that confident, he was nervous when saying these things. Base Vegeta was also able to hit Freeza's full-power ki blast (according to the script) & change its direction to his own liking without any effort. I believe that base Vegeta was still weaker than Freeza, but not extremely weaker.
Then the idea of this new SSJB form giving the most pathetic boost in power of all time and that surely not being the intention.
Now you just don't like the boost. Vegeta used SSB with a surprise attack against base Goku, and Goku survived the ki blast in his face without any scratch. Vegeta was most likely not using his full power, but it still says a lot.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Khin » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:12 am

apex_pretador wrote:
Bullza wrote:Here's a simple question for you all because I'm curious.

Who here thinks current base Goku is equal to (or stronger than) SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. What reason do you have to believe that?

And who thinks current base Goku is comfortably weaker than SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. Again what makes you think that?
Base goku is between SS BoG goku & SSG BoG goku. His ki was said to be bigger than ever in the fight vs freeza.
Post God SSj Goku and SSjG Goku are equals.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:31 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
Bullza wrote:Here's a simple question for you all because I'm curious.

Who here thinks current base Goku is equal to (or stronger than) SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. What reason do you have to believe that?

And who thinks current base Goku is comfortably weaker than SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. Again what makes you think that?
Base goku is between SS BoG goku & SSG BoG goku. His ki was said to be bigger than ever in the fight vs freeza.
Post God SSj Goku and SSjG Goku are equals.
the difference between Base beyond god goku & gold freeza was implied to be HUUUUUUUUUGE by everyone who can sense ki.
Even goku & vegeta were really worried.
SSG must be at least around half of beerus to give him a fight & entertain him. Simply put, SSB must be atleast 2x SBG , for obvious reasons, but it can't be anywhere near beerus.
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