Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:50 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
Piccolo is not one to purposely have his opponent use lesser strength. He knows he's in trouble, and so he asks if he can go easy on him. Frost says he need not worry since he's so worn out. His legs were even trembling after he fought Goku.
They were not shaking at all in his fight with piccolo he moved quick enough to blow a hole through piccolo's chest. Everything in the fight suggests that Piccolo is close to frost. He said they were underestimating him , he dodged easily, only got hit when he wanted too, charging while blocking with 1 hand , a grip that frost could not break out of, the Special Beam Cannon itself which destroyed the dome with Champa being skocked and Frost having to cheat to win. He would not cheat again unless he had too, as he could get caught like he did. How much more evidence do you people need to prove how strong he is!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:54 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
Piccolo is not one to purposely have his opponent use lesser strength. He knows he's in trouble, and so he asks if he can go easy on him. Frost says he need not worry since he's so worn out. His legs were even trembling after he fought Goku.
They were not shaking at all in his fight with piccolo he moved quick enough to blow a hole through piccolo's chest. Everything in the fight suggests that piccolo is close to frost. He said they were underestimating him , he dodged easily, only got hit when he wanted too, charging while blocking with 1 hand , a grip that frost could not break out of, the Special Beam Cannon itself which destroyed the dome with Champa being skocked and Frost having to cheat to win. He would not cheat again unless he had too, as he could get caught like he did. How much more evidence do you people need to prove how strong he is!
They were shaking at the end of Goku's fight. The whole point of the fight was Piccolo being the underdog, fighting Frost who is much stronger. That's why he asked Frost to weaken himself for him. It wasn't some kind of trick. Luckily for him, Frost was drained from his fight with Goku, which Frost himself said he was. If they were really on par, Piccolo would not be avoiding contact with Frost as much as possible and charging his best attack immediately. He'd be fighting head on like Goku was. They'd have an actual bout, and not a game of keep away. He immediately went to charge his best attack, because it's the only way he could beat Frost. Without it, he's completely sunk. He knows if he comes to blows with Frost, he would lose. Hence the title, bet everything on the Makankosappo and not, a even brawl. It's just like with Raditz. The only way Piccolo can win is with his best attack.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:30 pm

dbzfan7 wrote: They were shaking at the end of Goku's fight. The whole point of the fight was Piccolo being the underdog, fighting Frost who is much stronger. That's why he asked Frost to weaken himself for him. It wasn't some kind of trick. Luckily for him, Frost was drained from his fight with Goku, which Frost himself said he was. If they were really on par, Piccolo would not be avoiding contact with Frost as much as possible and charging his best attack immediately. He'd be fighting head on like Goku was. They'd have an actual bout, and not a game of keep away. He immediately went to charge his best attack, because it's the only way he could beat Frost. Without it, he's completely sunk. He knows if he comes to blows with Frost, he would lose. Hence the title, bet everything on the Makankosappo and not, a even brawl. It's just like with Raditz. The only way Piccolo can win is with his best attack.
This is quite the wrong assumption. He said it himself that the charging was a distraction and his plan to defeat Frost. You are also taking Frost words way out of context. He said that wouldn't be able to kill Piccolo accidentally. This means that he still had enough power to kill Piccolo which he did try. With that said you can see that Piccolo still manage to lock Frost down hard enough that he need to resort to cheating again.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Khin » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:35 pm

I don't think locking down someone means anything.Goku locked down Raditz despite being way weaker than him.The same thing can be said about Android 16 against Perfect Cell.But Goku said that while Piccolo got no chance,he at least can make him tired enough for Vegeta.So i think the gap between the two should't be that very high.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:41 pm

fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: They were shaking at the end of Goku's fight. The whole point of the fight was Piccolo being the underdog, fighting Frost who is much stronger. That's why he asked Frost to weaken himself for him. It wasn't some kind of trick. Luckily for him, Frost was drained from his fight with Goku, which Frost himself said he was. If they were really on par, Piccolo would not be avoiding contact with Frost as much as possible and charging his best attack immediately. He'd be fighting head on like Goku was. They'd have an actual bout, and not a game of keep away. He immediately went to charge his best attack, because it's the only way he could beat Frost. Without it, he's completely sunk. He knows if he comes to blows with Frost, he would lose. Hence the title, bet everything on the Makankosappo and not, a even brawl. It's just like with Raditz. The only way Piccolo can win is with his best attack.
This is quite the wrong assumption. He said it himself that the charging was a distraction and his plan to defeat Frost. You are also taking Frost words way out of context. He said that wouldn't be able to kill Piccolo accidentally. This means that he still had enough power to kill Piccolo which he did try. With that said you can see that Piccolo still manage to lock Frost down hard enough that he need to resort to cheating again.
Yes a weary Frost who trembled at the end of his fight with Goku. In a bout where Piccolo had to use his best technique and avoid all confrontation to use his attack. If I recall he let himself get hit to distract Frost so he could grab him. In a fight where not one single person went "Wow Piccolo you're a lot more powerful than I thought". Even Piccolo doubted himself, hence asking Frost to weaken himself. So hell he's even included among the people who doubted him.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:51 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
fexus wrote: This is quite the wrong assumption. He said it himself that the charging was a distraction and his plan to defeat Frost. You are also taking Frost words way out of context. He said that wouldn't be able to kill Piccolo accidentally. This means that he still had enough power to kill Piccolo which he did try. With that said you can see that Piccolo still manage to lock Frost down hard enough that he need to resort to cheating again.
Yes a weary Frost who trembled at the end of his fight with Goku. In a bout where Piccolo had to use his best technique and avoid all confrontation to use his attack. If I recall he let himself get hit to distract Frost so he could grab him. In a fight where not one single person went "Wow Piccolo you're a lot more powerful than I thought". Even Piccolo doubted himself, hence asking Frost to weaken himself. So hell he's even included among the people who doubted him.
Did you ignore half of what I said. Frost himself said that he only doesn't have enough power to ACCIDENTALLY kill Piccolo. It's not just about getting hit in the leg the whole charging thing was a distraction and a set up for the whole arm trap. If it wasn't the whole charging thing would be obsolete when his concentration is gone. Again you don't need people to shout wow Piccolo gotten so strong to see that he got strong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:59 pm

fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
fexus wrote: This is quite the wrong assumption. He said it himself that the charging was a distraction and his plan to defeat Frost. You are also taking Frost words way out of context. He said that wouldn't be able to kill Piccolo accidentally. This means that he still had enough power to kill Piccolo which he did try. With that said you can see that Piccolo still manage to lock Frost down hard enough that he need to resort to cheating again.
Yes a weary Frost who trembled at the end of his fight with Goku. In a bout where Piccolo had to use his best technique and avoid all confrontation to use his attack. If I recall he let himself get hit to distract Frost so he could grab him. In a fight where not one single person went "Wow Piccolo you're a lot more powerful than I thought". Even Piccolo doubted himself, hence asking Frost to weaken himself. So hell he's even included among the people who doubted him.
Did you ignore half of what I said. Frost himself said that he only doesn't have enough power to ACCIDENTALLY kill Piccolo. It's not just about getting hit in the leg the whole charging thing was a distraction and a set up for the whole arm trap. If it wasn't the whole charging thing would be obsolete when his concentration is gone. Again you don't need people to shout wow Piccolo gotten so strong to see that he got strong.
No need to be rude. I disagree. Piccolo himself asked for Frost to weaken himself and restrict his power to another form. Why bother asking that if he was on par with his final form anyways. It's not like Piccolo to ask someone to get weaker. Not only that but accidentally or not, he is weakened. At the end of Goku's fight, his legs are trembling. He's hurt. Every other time Piccolo has got stronger, someone has commented. Literally every time. Now all the sudden no one has nothing to say, and when they do it's "Nah you don't have a chance." Nobody has a damn thing to say about Piccolo getting so strong? Piccolo supposedly pulls a Freeza, and not one person has anything to say about it? The episodes title further points to Piccolo has to rely on the Makankosappo as he can't win without it. It's called bet everything on the Makankosappo for a reason. If he was truly on par with a fully powered fresh frost, he wouldn't need to rely on his best attack immediately. It'd be like if Goku just charged a Kamehameha and used Shunkan Ido the whole time in a bout, til it's powerful enough to do some damage. Piccolo himself was running the entire fight, so he could charge the attack, but also get a good enough opening to use it. An attack which Krillin even points out is beyond his limits. Piccolo also says his victory has nothing to do with power, but his fighting style. His strategy. Strategy is what Piccolo had, and not raw power. That's what made the bout so refreshing.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:I don't think locking down someone means anything.Goku locked down Raditz despite being way weaker than him.The same thing can be said about Android 16 against Perfect Cell.But Goku said that while Piccolo got no chance,he at least can make him tired enough for Vegeta.So i think the gap between the two should't be that very high.
Exactly. 16 held down Cell and a shattered ribs Goku held Raditz. Piccolo got stronger for sure, but if he was on par with a fully powered Frost, they'd have an actual fight more like Goku vs Frost. Piccolo didn't bother getting into a fist fight with Frost, because he knew it'd be a bad idea. He asked for Frost to weaken himself, because he also knew he couldn't beat a fully powered Frost, so Frost reassured he wasn't at his best. People say everyone underestimated Piccolo, but even Piccolo underestimated himself too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:41 pm

dbzfan7 wrote: No need to be rude. I disagree. Piccolo himself asked for Frost to weaken himself and restrict his power to another form. Why bother asking that if he was on par with his final form anyways. It's not like Piccolo to ask someone to get weaker. Not only that but accidentally or not, he is weakened. At the end of Goku's fight, his legs are trembling. He's hurt. Every other time Piccolo has got stronger, someone has commented. Literally every time. Now all the sudden no one has nothing to say, and when they do it's "Nah you don't have a chance." Nobody has a damn thing to say about Piccolo getting so strong? Piccolo supposedly pulls a Freeza, and not one person has anything to say about it? The episodes title further points to Piccolo has to rely on the Makankosappo as he can't win without it. It's called bet everything on the Makankosappo for a reason. If he was truly on par with a fully powered fresh frost, he wouldn't need to rely on his best attack immediately. It'd be like if Goku just charged a Kamehameha and used Shunkan Ido the whole time in a bout, til it's powerful enough to do some damage. Piccolo himself was running the entire fight, so he could charge the attack, but also get a good enough opening to use it. An attack which Krillin even points out is beyond his limits. Piccolo also says his victory has nothing to do with power, but his fighting style. His strategy. Strategy is what Piccolo had, and not raw power. That's what made the bout so refreshing.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:I don't think locking down someone means anything.Goku locked down Raditz despite being way weaker than him.The same thing can be said about Android 16 against Perfect Cell.But Goku said that while Piccolo got no chance,he at least can make him tired enough for Vegeta.So i think the gap between the two should't be that very high.
Exactly. 16 held down Cell and a shattered ribs Goku held Raditz. Piccolo got stronger for sure, but if he was on par with a fully powered Frost, they'd have an actual fight more like Goku vs Frost. Piccolo didn't bother getting into a fist fight with Frost, because he knew it'd be a bad idea. He asked for Frost to weaken himself, because he also knew he couldn't beat a fully powered Frost, so Frost reassured he wasn't at his best. People say everyone underestimated Piccolo, but even Piccolo underestimated himself too.
Is it rude when I pointed out you literally ignored the accidental part of the conversation? I really don't think so. The accidental part shows that Frost would actually need to try to kill Piccolo. Which again he did try. Yes, Piccolo is not as strong as Final Form Frost but he is at least on par with the weakened Frost after Goku fought him or at least a little bit weaker. Piccolo ask him because he saw the fight with Goku and thought that he wouldn't be able to catch up which is wrong as shown. This is getting pretty ridiculous now. When Cell said that he can destroy the Solar System and he didn't show it people don't believe him but now because nobody said how strong Piccolo is but Piccolo shows him people still can't believe it. Piccolo also never use Antenna beam and stretchy arms in such a long time, so this does make it a weird battle after all. Now I need you to try to remember what Makankosappo is. It is a charging attack that needs to charge and he can't lose his concentration. Did he lose his concentration? Yes he did. He freaking lost it. After that the arm trap and then charge again for about 10 sec. The charge that takes 10 sec can and will be able to defeat Frost as Frost said himself. There's no denying this. Next episode also shows that Vegeta is going to fight Frost again which will show that Frost still have the stamina.
For the lock down part by weaker opponents. The weaker opponents need to use all of their power to lock down the stronger person. Piccolo not only lock him down while injured but also manage to charge his Makankosappo enough to actually defeat Frost. If you want to compare with Raditz, this is like Piccolo himself lock Raditz down and charge his beam while at it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:58 pm

fexus wrote:Is it rude when I pointed out you literally ignored the accidental part of the conversation? I really don't think so. The accidental part shows that Frost would actually need to try to kill Piccolo. Which again he did try. Yes, Piccolo is not as strong as Final Form Frost but he is at least on par with the weakened Frost after Goku fought him or at least a little bit weaker. Piccolo ask him because he saw the fight with Goku and thought that he wouldn't be able to catch up which is wrong as shown. This is getting pretty ridiculous now. When Cell said that he can destroy the Solar System and he didn't show it people don't believe him but now because nobody said how strong Piccolo is but Piccolo shows him people still can't believe it. Piccolo also never use Antenna beam and stretchy arms in such a long time, so this does make it a weird battle after all. Now I need you to try to remember what Makankosappo is. It is a charging attack that needs to charge and he can't lose his concentration. Did he lose his concentration? Yes he did. He freaking lost it. After that the arm trap and then charge again for about 10 sec. The charge that takes 10 sec can and will be able to defeat Frost as Frost said himself. There's no denying this. Next episode also shows that Vegeta is going to fight Frost again which will show that Frost still have the stamina.
For the lock down part by weaker opponents. The weaker opponents need to use all of their power to lock down the stronger person. Piccolo not only lock him down while injured but also manage to charge his Makankosappo enough to actually defeat Frost. If you want to compare with Raditz, this is like Piccolo himself lock Raditz down and charge his beam while at it.
I didn't. That was just your conjecture. It's rude to insinuate I ignored you because I disagree. I disagree with you. If you don't like that my opinion differs, then there's no point in having this conversation.

No I believe the accidental part means he won't easily kill Piccolo. Hence Piccolo said everyone is mocking him. It was an insult. I wouldn't say he's on par or he'd you know, actually fight Frost instead of purposely avoiding him as much as possible. He is more than a little weaker. He's not leagues below a weakened Frost, but if he was on par, he would not need to resort to avoiding tactics and using his one move.

With Cell they at least SAID how strong he is. With Piccolo not a god damn person says a thing. He's commented on the saiyan arc. When fighting Freeza they say something. When fighting Gero they say something. When fighting 17 they say something. When leaving the ROSAT they say something. They say nothing in the Boo arc because he didn't make a big significant difference. So Goku is just a moron who can't sense ki and tell Piccolo is way stronger than he thought? He has to bet everything on the Makankosappo. If they were on par, he would not have to. You're completely disregarding this point because you don't like it. It's a fair point. You can disagree with it though.

And again, why ask Frost to weaken himself, if he's already on par with Frost? When does Piccolo ever want an opponent who is on his level, to purposely weaken themselves for him so he can win? Did Piccolo become a wimp all of the sudden? Why resort to one risky strategy instead of just fighting him if he's on par with him? Why resort to one attack if you can already fight on par with your enemy. Why risk yourself leaving many openings, if you can fight like Goku did?

Piccolo was avoiding Frost the entire time, much to Champa's annoyance. He did this because charging his one attack was a much better idea than actually fighting Frost head to head. Why would that be? Because fighting head to head was considered a worse approach to the fight. So he tried to power up a ranged attack. The point was to power up a powerful attack, and hit him. That was Piccolo's best bet to win. You think if Piccolo just went head to head with Frost, he'd come up on top?

Why did the Makankosappo get all the strength comments, but not Piccolo? They say the technique takes time. They say it brings Piccolo beyond his limits. A comment how it shatters the roof. A comment about how it stores ki, etc. Why does the one move get everyone's attention, but not a single person can just say "Wow Piccolo really did some serious training. He's amazing."
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:09 pm

fexus, I don't think dbzfan7 is ignoring your points, just adressing what he finds relevant to discuss. Pointing that out to him may sound a little rude, even if it wasn't your intention.

For what is being debated, I think the point of contention is about none commenting on Piccolo's power increase, which I suppose everyone was expecting last week, since Dragon Ball do that every time power is on the agenda. That didn't happen. The focus is on how makkankosappo is a technique which makes Piccolo go beyond limits. If he were that close to Frost like some people are suggesting, he wouldn't need to come up with such complicated strategy just to connect his attack. Good thing that he managed to cover the flaws of makkankosappo, so that should count as a improvement.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:15 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:fexus, I don't think dbzfan7 is ignoring your points, just adressing what he finds relevant to discuss. Pointing that out to him may sound a little rude, even if it wasn't your intention.

For what is being debated, I think the point of contention is about none commenting on Piccolo's power increase, which I suppose everyone was expecting last week, since Dragon Ball do that every time power is on the agenda. That didn't happen. The focus is on how makkankosappo is a technique which makes Piccolo go beyond limits. If he were that close to Frost like some people are suggesting, he wouldn't need to come up with such complicated strategy just to connect his attack. Good thing that he managed to cover the flaws of makkankosappo, so that should count as a improvement.
Thank you. You understand entirely. If there's a point to address, I'll take a look at it. If I missed a good point I'm sorry. But that's not the impression I get. I get this isn't being taken as a fun discussion, but a "No I'm right" "Nuh uh I'm right" debate. That's not what I'm here to do. I'm discussing viewpoints. I don't really consider anyone right or wrong since Super is incredibly messed up with levels. If this is just a discussion to tell people they're wrong, I'm not interested. That's what made power level discussions toxic to me. They stopped becoming fun speculation, but a way for people to tell someone else their opinion is wrong, while their own opinion is clearly the only right one.

I think Kaboom said it best.
Kaboom wrote:People are free to theorize however they want and devise whatever explanation they think makes the most sense without being put down for it. Especially since Super has done so little to actually explain anything to begin with. There is no one "correct" outlook on this stuff until we're officially given one.

Exactly. The Makankossapo gets more attention than Piccolo himself. Krillin actually makes a comment on how it takes Piccolo beyond his limits. They'll make that strength comment, but no one will just flat out say Piccolo got really strong? Why is the Makankosappo getting all the praise, but not Piccolo himself?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:27 pm

I don't think I'm quite following what was the fuss about Piccolo and Frost in the latest pages:

- Frost was weakened and still had more than enough energy to kill Piccolo. This puts Frost at 100% >>> Piccolo, just like what dbzfan7 rightly said; Piccolo's "you are underestimating me"... which happens after "you can't beat this guy", is more or less akin to "you think I don't have a chance, but I do have a way to beat this guy (so you are all underestimating me)".
Piccolo is again inferior to the weakened Frost, and we can deduce this not only in light of Goku's comments - again, Piccolo never strictly says Goku is wrong in saying he is weaker than Frost, just implies that he is wrong in saying he has no chance - because he immediately avoids a physical confrontation and resorts to what is arguably his strongest attack (hint: an attack which he used to beat people stronger than him in the past).

- The binding technique is no different than what happened with Raditz, actually it's a picture-perfect example proving that Piccolo doesn't have to be stronger than Frost to bind him. Remember that even Raditz was damaged by Gohan's rage outburst.

So, what do we have? It's as linear as it gets and it's this:
Piccolo with his Makankosappo << Weakened Frost << Piccolo in reality (possibly) << Piccolo according to Goku

What we don't know is just if the Makankosappo could kill a 100% Frost (the one who faced Super Saiyan Goku), or if the Makankosappo could kill Super Saiyan Goku. Everything else is supported by the narration.

- I still have to understand how Piccolo training with a weak Gohan on his own and getting results 100x better than Goku training with Whis would amount to:

A. Good writing, especially in light of how anime and manga go out of their way to portray Good Buu as a force to reckon with compared to Piccolo.
B. Something that ever happened on such a massive scale in the anime/manga before (and no, it didnt': the closest we'd have would be having Namek Saga Vegeta and Piccolo sparring together for six months and get to Perfect Cell level).

Honestly, I understand some you may be eager to make Piccolo relevant again: I think we all do in some way or another, but this is a matter of jumping to the conclusions or not.
The whole "Goku turning Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan Blue" means something people are free to interpret as they want and they do not necessarily mean "Piccolo is God tier now because he is apparently stronger than the Base Goku we see now" - who has never been seen exerting himself anyway or raising his ki anyway, so we know for certain he didn't quite fight as during the Freeza fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:35 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:I still have to understand how Piccolo training with a weak Gohan on his own and getting results 100x better than Goku training with Whis would amount to.

Honestly, I understand some you may be eager to make Piccolo relevant again: I think we all do in some way or another, but this is a matter of jumping to the conclusions or not.
The whole "Goku turning Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan Blue" means something people are free to interpret as they want and they do not necessarily mean "Piccolo is God tier now because he is apparently stronger than the Base Goku we see now" - who has never been seen exerting himself anyway or raising his ki anyway, so we know for certain he didn't quite fight as during the Freeza fight.
Another thing that bothers me. Piccolo somehow has a better training regiment than Whis does? A training regiment that was literally teaching Gohan the basics again? What basics did Gohan learn, the basics of getting uber powerful real fast? Gohan and Piccolo were what I call on par. They actually traded blows and fought each other. Heck I suppose I could say Super Saiyan Gohan must be Super powerful now right if his base form is on par with the almighty Piccolo huh? Maybe Goku should just go learn from Piccolo then if Piccolo knows such an amazing training regiment.

I like Piccolo. I want him to be stronger and relevant, but not if it doesn't make sense. I'd happily accept it if it were the case. I'd hate how little his training was fleshed out, but love if he was really that good. I simply just don't see anything concrete yet. People seem offended that we don't agree he is god tier.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:45 pm

This is unfortunately an inherent issue concerning discussions between masses in general - which the internet makes more apparent (or, like you say, toxic) than in real life.
There are people who'll always interpret something opinable as a fact and people who'll intepret some facts as opinable. Than, of course, the more people who will discuss? The more it'll become a mess.

Here, the matter is reaching a consensus: are we talking about facts (or "supposed facts": as in "the Super Saiyan is a *50 multiplier because X or Y says so) or opinions? I think we have already plenty established that there is room to either:

* Talk about a debatable - if anthing, lopsided - narrative structure if Piccolo - and/or Gohan - really reached the realm of Gods in what we would have to think as a nigh-impossible fashion, at least according to the universe internal set of rules (I think that if the fanbase didn't already go into "berserk GT mode" is only because nobody acts like Piccolo is God-tier) which we've accepted so far.

* Doubt the aforementioned claim not only because of the universe's set of rules, but at the very least partially because of the general progression of the story too, actively - see issues presented with Mr. Buu and Gohan - and retroactively (I mean, for one the Buu saga would become even more of a mess, if it was a matter of Piccolo taking things into his own hands).

Then if people think this is not the case and it's fine and those who disagree are wrong, it's all right.
Saying we'd be talking "out of our ass" or "not using facts" or "not being intellectually honest", however, it's more than a little beyond what should be respectable and acceptable in light of what we have been shown, I think.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:51 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:This is unfortunately an inherent issue concerning discussions between masses in general - which the internet makes more apparent (or, like you say, toxic) than in real life.
There are people who'll always interpret something opinable as a fact and people who'll intepret some facts as opinable.

Here, the matter is reaching a consensus: are we talking about facts (or "supposed facts": as in "the Super Saiyan is a *50 multiplier because X or Y says so) or opinions? I think we have already plenty established that there is room to either:

* Talk about a debatable - if anthing, lopsided - narrative structure if Piccolo - and/or Gohan - really reached the realm of Gods in what we would have to think as a nigh-impossible fashion, at least according to the universe internal set of rules (I think that if the fanbase didn't already go into "berserk GT mode" is only because nobody acts like Piccolo is God-tier) which we've accepted so far.

* Doubt the aforementioned claim not only because of the universe' set of rules, but at the very least partially because of the general progression of the story too, actively - see issues presented with Mr. Buu and Gohan - and retroactively (I mean, for one the Buu saga would become even more of a mess, if it was a matter of Piccolo taking things into his own hands).

Then if people think this is not the case and it's fine and those who disagree are wrong, it's all right.
Saying we'd be talking "out of our ass" or "not using facts" however it's more than a little beyond what should be respectable and acceptable, I think.
If Piccolo in like 8 month's could do such a thing, why not just step inside the ROSAT himself and beat the crap out of Super Boo. He personally said only the boys (Before knowing fusion) were the only hope of earth, after he believed Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were gone. Was Piccolo just too lazy to do anything? Did he get really bored that day? Did he discover what Freeza did off screen? If I had to lay out the points it'd be.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:56 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:This is unfortunately an inherent issue concerning discussions between masses in general - which the internet makes more apparent (or, like you say, toxic) than in real life.
There are people who'll always interpret something opinable as a fact and people who'll intepret some facts as opinable.

Here, the matter is reaching a consensus: are we talking about facts (or "supposed facts": as in "the Super Saiyan is a *50 multiplier because X or Y says so) or opinions? I think we have already plenty established that there is room to either:

* Talk about a debatable - if anthing, lopsided - narrative structure if Piccolo - and/or Gohan - really reached the realm of Gods in what we would have to think as a nigh-impossible fashion, at least according to the universe internal set of rules (I think that if the fanbase didn't already go into "berserk GT mode" is only because nobody acts like Piccolo is God-tier) which we've accepted so far.

* Doubt the aforementioned claim not only because of the universe' set of rules, but at the very least partially because of the general progression of the story too, actively - see issues presented with Mr. Buu and Gohan - and retroactively (I mean, for one the Buu saga would become even more of a mess, if it was a matter of Piccolo taking things into his own hands).

Then if people think this is not the case and it's fine and those who disagree are wrong, it's all right.
Saying we'd be talking "out of our ass" or "not using facts" however it's more than a little beyond what should be respectable and acceptable, I think.
If Piccolo in like 8 month's could do such a thing, why not just step inside the ROSAT himself and beat the crap out of Super Boo. He personally said only the boys (Before knowing fusion) were the only hope of earth, after he believed Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were gone. Was Piccolo just too lazy to do anything? Did he get really bored that day? Did he discover what Freeza did off screen?
Yeah, that's more or less the point.
We'd need a plot-device of the sort (Freeza had it); it'd simply be "Storytelling 101". That's why, like a lot of us are saying, "there is room to doubt the claim".

So far, eh.
Maybe Piccolo really became God tier and we'll have to accept it because we'll have a direct comparison. Will it be "bad writing"? Most likely, because we'll again most likely won't know exactly why or how Piccolo became this strong (and why or how he didn't solve the Buu conflict by himself). But hey, at least we'll have a conclusion.

If Piccolo is God tier, it'd be great if it is made know how he did it and if it equals to a good plot-device.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:00 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:This is unfortunately an inherent issue concerning discussions between masses in general - which the internet makes more apparent (or, like you say, toxic) than in real life.
There are people who'll always interpret something opinable as a fact and people who'll intepret some facts as opinable.

Here, the matter is reaching a consensus: are we talking about facts (or "supposed facts": as in "the Super Saiyan is a *50 multiplier because X or Y says so) or opinions? I think we have already plenty established that there is room to either:

* Talk about a debatable - if anthing, lopsided - narrative structure if Piccolo - and/or Gohan - really reached the realm of Gods in what we would have to think as a nigh-impossible fashion, at least according to the universe internal set of rules (I think that if the fanbase didn't already go into "berserk GT mode" is only because nobody acts like Piccolo is God-tier) which we've accepted so far.

* Doubt the aforementioned claim not only because of the universe' set of rules, but at the very least partially because of the general progression of the story too, actively - see issues presented with Mr. Buu and Gohan - and retroactively (I mean, for one the Buu saga would become even more of a mess, if it was a matter of Piccolo taking things into his own hands).

Then if people think this is not the case and it's fine and those who disagree are wrong, it's all right.
Saying we'd be talking "out of our ass" or "not using facts" however it's more than a little beyond what should be respectable and acceptable, I think.
If Piccolo in like 8 month's could do such a thing, why not just step inside the ROSAT himself and beat the crap out of Super Boo. He personally said only the boys (Before knowing fusion) were the only hope of earth, after he believed Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were gone. Was Piccolo just too lazy to do anything? Did he get really bored that day? Did he discover what Freeza did off screen?
Yeah, that's more or less the point.
We'd need a plot-device of the sort (Freeza had it); it'd simply be "Storytelling 101". That's why, like a lot of us are saying, "there is room to doubt the claim".

So far, eh.
Maybe Piccolo really became God tier and we'll have to accept it because we'll have a direct comparison. Will it be "bad writing"? Most likely, because we'll again most likely won't know exactly why or how Piccolo became this strong (and why or how he didn't solve the Buu conflict by himself). But hey, at least we'll have a conclusion.

If Piccolo is God tier, it'd be great if it is made know how he did it and if it equals to a good plot-device.
If he is god tier, then I'll still call it dumb. I accept Freeza and Vegeta's bullcrap as at least they had an explanation. They are both lacking and stupid, but the show told us something. I'll like that Piccolo is awesome, but I just won't like how he got there. I can enjoy Piccolo being awesome if he gets tons more action though.

This I think was all of our complaints.

-How come Piccolo can't just straight up fight Frost instead of resorting to one attack?
-Why use one attack that leaves him open if he could just wear down Frost normally if he's on par with him, and then use his attack?
-If Piccolo could be this good, how come he couldn't just do that in the ROSAT and punch out Super Boo?
-Why does nobody comment on him being miraculously stronger?
-Why does the Makankosappo get all the discussion of how awesome (or bad in Vegeta's case) it is, and not one mention about Piccolo's power.
-Why can't Goku sense Piccolo and see he's way more powerful than he's giving him credit for?
-Why ask Frost to weaken himself even further than he currently is if Piccolo is already on par?
-Why does everyone feel Boo is such a bad loss if he's the weakest link by a giant margin?
-When they go to see Piccolo they also don't seem to sense he's anything huge after fighting Gohan? That's the best time to get a reading, and yet nothing.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:02 am

dbzfan7 wrote:If Piccolo in like 8 month's could do such a thing, why not just step inside the ROSAT himself and beat the crap out of Super Boo. He personally said only the boys (Before knowing fusion) were the only hope of earth, after he believed Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were gone. Was Piccolo just too lazy to do anything? Did he get really bored that day? Did he discover what Freeza did off screen?
Dragon Ball is progressive, once you have a character reach a certain plateau the others can reach it too(if they can't they get left behind). For example Piccolo training with Goku before the Androids. He got close to a SSJ level because he trained with a SSJ. That's why a possible Piccolo upgrade(beyond Super Boo) is not forced if Gohan recovered his Mystic powers, besides the extra that Piccolo is a prodigy on his own.

Now if both Piccolo and Gohan got to God tier, that's bad writing and inconsistent with the story, if there's no mention of special methods.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:04 am

dbzfan7 wrote: I didn't. That was just your conjecture. It's rude to insinuate I ignored you because I disagree. I disagree with you. If you don't like that my opinion differs, then there's no point in having this conversation.

No I believe the accidental part means he won't easily kill Piccolo. Hence Piccolo said everyone is mocking him. It was an insult. I wouldn't say he's on par or he'd you know, actually fight Frost instead of purposely avoiding him as much as possible. He is more than a little weaker. He's not leagues below a weakened Frost, but if he was on par, he would not need to resort to avoiding tactics and using his one move.

With Cell they at least SAID how strong he is. With Piccolo not a god damn person says a thing. He's commented on the saiyan arc. When fighting Freeza they say something. When fighting Gero they say something. When fighting 17 they say something. When leaving the ROSAT they say something. They say nothing in the Boo arc because he didn't make a big significant difference. So Goku is just a moron who can't sense ki and tell Piccolo is way stronger than he thought? He has to bet everything on the Makankosappo. If they were on par, he would not have to. You're completely disregarding this point because you don't like it. It's a fair point. You can disagree with it though.

And again, why ask Frost to weaken himself, if he's already on par with Frost? When does Piccolo ever want an opponent who is on his level, to purposely weaken themselves for him so he can win? Did Piccolo become a wimp all of the sudden? Why resort to one risky strategy instead of just fighting him if he's on par with him? Why resort to one attack if you can already fight on par with your enemy. Why risk yourself leaving many openings, if you can fight like Goku did?

Piccolo was avoiding Frost the entire time, much to Champa's annoyance. He did this because charging his one attack was a much better idea than actually fighting Frost head to head. Why would that be? Because fighting head to head was considered a worse approach to the fight. So he tried to power up a ranged attack. The point was to power up a powerful attack, and hit him. That was Piccolo's best bet to win. You think if Piccolo just went head to head with Frost, he'd come up on top?

Why did the Makankosappo get all the strength comments, but not Piccolo? They say the technique takes time. They say it brings Piccolo beyond his limits. A comment how it shatters the roof. A comment about how it stores ki, etc. Why does the one move get everyone's attention, but not a single person can just say "Wow Piccolo really did some serious training. He's amazing."
Using a strategy doesn't mean they are weak and fighting head on doesn't mean they are strong. That's just a misconception rather than a stated fact. In fact, Piccolo also had fought opponent head on that is stronger than him. You may disagree but that was what stated in the episode itself. Maybe you think it wasn't related to the discussion but it is because it shows how much of a power difference there is. And lastly, the technique itself if were used by a so much weaker opponent need a lot more of charging time. And we see that the long charging time was interrupted. You need to accept this. The charging time was interrupted. Than came the hold which I already state that weaker opponents need to use their whole strength to lock down the stronger opponent which Piccolo doesn't do. People always have bias when it comes to things like this. They always want more than what is necessary to break their bias. I don't really care about the whole power debate but seeing people severely downsizing Piccolo and state it like it is a fact is really depressing me. It's like asking people that ask that the background characters to gain more power suddenly doesn't want it because it doesn't conform to their way of what a power increase should be.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:06 am

This I think was all of our complaints.
You could possibly add "why won't Goku immediately bring Gohan aboard with them if he's equal or able to spar with a God tier Piccolo (or even if he is Ultimate tier) to leave a place for Good Buu, who would be the weakest link by a gigantic margin (compared to both a God tier and an Ultimate tier)".

Even it it's not directly related to Piccolo's own gains, it again stresses that both Gohan and Piccolo's training still in all likelihood didn't make them more useful to them than Good Buu.

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