Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:13 am

LightBing wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:If Piccolo in like 8 month's could do such a thing, why not just step inside the ROSAT himself and beat the crap out of Super Boo. He personally said only the boys (Before knowing fusion) were the only hope of earth, after he believed Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were gone. Was Piccolo just too lazy to do anything? Did he get really bored that day? Did he discover what Freeza did off screen?
Dragon Ball is progressive, once you have a character reach a certain plateau the others can reach it too(if they can't they get left behind). For example Piccolo training with Goku before the Androids. He got close to a SSJ level because he trained with a SSJ. That's why a possible Piccolo upgrade(beyond Super Boo) is not forced if Gohan recovered his Mystic powers, besides the extra that Piccolo is a prodigy on his own.

Now if both Piccolo and Gohan got to God tier, that's bad writing and inconsistent with the story, if there's no mention of special methods.
I ain't denying that he can't have gotten a lot stronger by training with Gohan. I deny because there isn't a single explanation for it. Not one comment about it. Krillin back then commented Piccolo is so strong and he isn't even a Super Saiyan. That is something. Also considering how the series has been bringing back SSJ constantly, I don't think Gohan has his Ultimate state. Goku and Vegeta are using SSJ again, and I think they're having Gohan stick with it too. Maybe he will have it back, I don't know. Even then training with Gohan would not be enough to get that good, unless you go by Base Goku is not that special. If they had Piccolo train with Goku and Vegeta, then I'd at least buy it that way. If he was that good, then why not just have him train with Goku and Vegeta?
Using a strategy doesn't mean they are weak and fighting head on doesn't mean they are strong. That's just a misconception rather than a stated fact. In fact, Piccolo also had fought opponent head on that is stronger than him. You may disagree but that was what stated in the episode itself. Maybe you think it wasn't related to the discussion but it is because it shows how much of a power difference there is. And lastly, the technique itself if were used by a so much weaker opponent need a lot more of charging time. And we see that the long charging time was interrupted. You need to accept this. The charging time was interrupted. Than came the hold which I already state that weaker opponents need to use their whole strength to lock down the stronger opponent which Piccolo doesn't do. People always have bias when it comes to things like this. They always want more than what is necessary to break their bias. I don't really care about the whole power debate but seeing people severely downsizing Piccolo and state it like it is a fact is really depressing me. It's like asking people that ask that the background characters to gain more power suddenly doesn't want it because it doesn't conform to their way of what a power increase should be.
It means that fighting head on was not a good idea. Otherwise the fight would be more like Gohan vs Piccolo was. Piccolo would not use such a strategy that leaves him open for attacks if he could just fight on par with Frost. He could weaken Frost by pummeling him, and then when he's weary use his special move. Instead he bets the entire fight on a special move and believes that is much better than the hand to hand combat approach. The whole audience comments on Piccolo's technique but not on him. They point out the flaws in his approach which he had to take because as a fighter, it was the better option. It was the superior option to risk the battle on powering up one attack, then to fight Frost head on and weaken him that way before using his attack. I'm sorry if it depresses you that I just don't see it. If you are right then we'll see later that you are, so you don't need to get your point across as the right one if in later time it will be. This is my opinion. If I am wrong, I will be proven wrong when the episode itself convinces me of it. I am not telling other people they are wrong. If I come off that way I apologize. I just don't believe it yet. I speak of my impressions on the show. It's not over yet so I could be wrong, or you could be. We'll see. There is no need to get upset. This is supposed to be fun.
LowRyder2005 wrote:
This I think was all of our complaints.
You could possibly add "why won't Goku immediately bring Gohan aboard with them if he's equal or able to spar with a God tier Piccolo (or even if he is Ultimate tier) to leave a place for Good Buu, who would be the weakest link by a gigantic margin (compared to both a God tier and an Ultimate tier)".

Even it it's not directly related to Piccolo's own gains, it again stresses that both Gohan and Piccolo's training still in all likelihood didn't make them more useful to them than Good Buu.
Gohan has a conference so he wasn't coming no matter what. I just added that Piccolo and Gohan have a big brawl, but even there no one has anything to say. Not a "Wow Gohan you really have been training hard." "Awesome Piccolo I can see how well the training is going." They say nothing. Then none of them can simply sense Boo is the weakest link by far, and are greatly upset he is out. Who cares if everyone is god tier and Boo is a weakling? I think they'd be like. "Ah well Boo wasn't anything special anyways." I don't see why they wouldn't say that considering Goku insulted Piccolo by saying he had no chance, and Vegeta insulted his technique. They could easily have just said Boo wasn't really that strong anyways.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:24 am

dbzfan7 wrote:
It means that fighting head on was not a good idea. Otherwise the fight would be more like Gohan vs Piccolo was. The whole audience comments on Piccolo's technique but not on him. They point out the flaws in his approach which he had to take because as a fighter, it was the better option. It was the superior option to risk the battle on powering up one attack, then to fight Frost head on and weaken him that way before using his attack. I'm sorry if it depresses you that I just don't see it. If you are right then we'll see later that you are, so you don't need to get your point across as the right one if in later time it will be. This is my opinion. If I am wrong, I will be proven wrong when the episode itself convinces me of it. I am not telling other people they are wrong. If I come off that way I apologize. I just don't believe it yet.
Yes it was more risky for Piccolo to fight the guy that just knock out a SSJ Goku with one punch. I think we all remember this right? Frost just finish his battle with Goku and Goku was the one that lost. It was with cheating but it shows to Piccolo that he shouldn't fight with Frost head on. That could be a reasonable reason. People commented on the technique because Piccolo was instantly charging it at the start of the fight and later on that technique that had like 10 seconds of charge break through Vados barrier which the fight from Goku vs Frost didn't. So, Piccolo which is weaker than Goku manage to break the barrier of course they talk about the technique than Piccolo. But whatever. If you can't see this, who am I to convince you otherwise.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:31 am

fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
It means that fighting head on was not a good idea. Otherwise the fight would be more like Gohan vs Piccolo was. The whole audience comments on Piccolo's technique but not on him. They point out the flaws in his approach which he had to take because as a fighter, it was the better option. It was the superior option to risk the battle on powering up one attack, then to fight Frost head on and weaken him that way before using his attack. I'm sorry if it depresses you that I just don't see it. If you are right then we'll see later that you are, so you don't need to get your point across as the right one if in later time it will be. This is my opinion. If I am wrong, I will be proven wrong when the episode itself convinces me of it. I am not telling other people they are wrong. If I come off that way I apologize. I just don't believe it yet.
Yes it was more risky for Piccolo to fight the guy that just knock out a SSJ Goku with one punch. I think we all remember this right? Frost just finish his battle with Goku and Goku was the one that lost. It was with cheating but it shows to Piccolo that he shouldn't fight with Frost head on. That could be a reasonable reason. People commented on the technique because Piccolo was instantly charging it at the start of the fight and later on that technique that had like 10 seconds of charge break through Vados barrier which the fight from Goku vs Frost didn't. So, Piccolo which is weaker than Goku manage to break the barrier of course they talk about the technique than Piccolo. But whatever. If you can't see this, who am I to convince you otherwise.
I can see your opinion fine. I don't agree. I stated my reasons why, and you don't agree with me either. If he were really playing keep away because of that, then why did no one say anything? Dragon Ball is the kind of story that explains this. Heck during Piccolo explaining his strategy, not once does he mention he avoided Frost because he was afraid what happened to Goku would happen to him. Why wasn't that included when he was saying his plan? His comments to me mean he didn't want to fight head on because he wasn't strong enough to. Krillin's comment to me adds to that he's making up the difference in strength with a powerful move. I've seen fair enough reasons for both sides. I for now don't believe he is that strong yet. He could still very well be that strong, and I just don't see it yet. I'll wait for the show to convince me. If the show gives me a convincing statement. I'll accept it. As I hope if it says Piccolo isn't that special, people will accept that too.

You really shouldn't be taking this so seriously. If I am wrong, so be it. All you need to do is put out your viewpoint and leave it at that. This is just a fun shonen anime. You don't need to work hard to assert your opinion. Simply state it. Agree or disagree, and move on. Enjoy a conversation and don't turn it into a just arguing your opinion over mine. You're taking this too hard. If Piccolo is that good and the show wants me to know it, I hope it goes more into it later for me.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:32 am

So, Piccolo which is weaker than Goku manage to break the barrier of course they talk about the technique than Piccolo. But whatever. If you can't see this, who am I to convince you otherwise.
Regarding the barrier, it could simply be that Champa had created a barrier which was intended to contain fighters as weak as heavily suppressed/weighted Goku and Vegeta.

If someone had said the barrier could have contained, dunno, Freeza, it would be a different thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:33 am

dbzfan7 wrote:I ain't denying that he can't have gotten a lot stronger by training with Gohan. I deny because there isn't a single explanation for it. Not one comment about it. Krillin back then commented Piccolo is so strong and he isn't even a Super Saiyan. That is something. Also considering how the series has been bringing back SSJ constantly, I don't think Gohan has his Ultimate state. Goku and Vegeta are using SSJ again, and I think they're having Gohan stick with it too. Maybe he will have it back, I don't know. Even then training with Gohan would not be enough to get that good, unless you go by Base Goku is not that special. If they had Piccolo train with Goku and Vegeta, then I'd at least buy it that way. If he was that good, then why not just have him train with Goku and Vegeta?
There's some precedent for the lack of comments, if the character in question got stronger but is a weakling compared with the big shot's. I'm referring to Tenshinhan against Imperfect Cell, we know he got stronger since his last fight but since it doesn't matter, the comments are focused on his Shin Kikoho. Exactly like the recent Piccolo fight.

Piccolo getting to Mystic Gohan level is a bit of wishful thinking on my part. The arguments are weak, Gohan having Mystic hair during the small fighting sequence is all I can muster. But it's not that farfetched, he had 8 months to lose the rust and was motivated.

My personal view on Gohan, in the movie they had to have someone go SSJ(like you said). That was Gohan, by the wording in Super - were there's more explanations - I got that he could only access his former power in SSJ, because of the lack of training.
Now since they have Goku and Vegeta back with the form, makes it more likely that Gohan SSJ phase was an outliner contrived by the plot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:37 am

LightBing wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:I ain't denying that he can't have gotten a lot stronger by training with Gohan. I deny because there isn't a single explanation for it. Not one comment about it. Krillin back then commented Piccolo is so strong and he isn't even a Super Saiyan. That is something. Also considering how the series has been bringing back SSJ constantly, I don't think Gohan has his Ultimate state. Goku and Vegeta are using SSJ again, and I think they're having Gohan stick with it too. Maybe he will have it back, I don't know. Even then training with Gohan would not be enough to get that good, unless you go by Base Goku is not that special. If they had Piccolo train with Goku and Vegeta, then I'd at least buy it that way. If he was that good, then why not just have him train with Goku and Vegeta?
There's some precedent for the lack of comments, if the character in question got stronger but is a weakling compared with the big shot's. I'm referring to Tenshinhan against Imperfect Cell, we know he got stronger since his last fight but since it doesn't matter, the comments are focused on his Shin Kikoho. Exactly like the recent Piccolo fight.

Piccolo getting to Mystic Gohan level is a bit of wishful thinking on my part. The arguments are weak, Gohan having Mystic hair during the small fighting sequence is all I can muster. But it's not that farfetched, he had 8 months to lose the rust and was motivated.

My personal view on Gohan, in the movie they had to have someone go SSJ(like you said). That was Gohan, by the wording in Super - were there's more explanations - I got that he could only access his former power in SSJ, because of the lack of training.
Now since they have Goku and Vegeta back with the form, makes it more likely that Gohan SSJ phase was an outliner contrived by the plot.
It could be. I think he could have fought Piccolo as Ultimate Gohan, but I also think he didn't kinda like how Krillin got his hair back from BOG. So perhaps so did Gohan. If I see Gohan with his F hair again and if he fights his hair spikes up, he just may be Ultimate Gohan again. I think it is very farfetched for Piccolo to get that good in 8 month's, but training with Ultimate Gohan would at least help explain things, if that is the case. Still wouldn't explain god level, but it's something. I'm just annoyed we aren't being told anything.

Just like with Vegeta and Freeza we really weren't told anything. Vegeta just trained with Whis doing...something and that's it. We can guess to what it was, but no actual explanation. If we could see some of the basics of that training that would be nice. Freeza just kinda got strong because he was a prodigy, but even prodigies I think need some guidance. I'm curious how he discovered the right training. What kind of training he did. I don't think holding back on Tagoma is gonna do it, but simply help him control his final form/100% which he didn't have control of before.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:43 am

dbzfan7 wrote:
I can see your opinion fine. I don't agree. I stated my reasons why, and you don't agree with me either. If he were really playing keep away because of that, then why did no one say anything? Dragon Ball is the kind of story that explains this. Heck during Piccolo explaining his strategy, not once does he mention he avoided Frost because he was afraid what happened to Goku would happen to him. Why wasn't that included when he was saying his plan? His comments to me mean he didn't want to fight head on because he wasn't strong enough to. Krillin's comment to me adds to that he's making up the difference in strength with a powerful move. I've seen fair enough reasons for both sides. I just don't see it yet.
But he did say that when Goku lost maybe it was due to brain damage. I don't think he needs to state it twice. As I said, using a strategy doesn't mean he is weaker and fighting head on doesn't mean that he is stronger. That's a misconception. Piccolo had fought stronger opponents head on. But this time he can think of a strategy to win. That's why he say that to Frost. I don't take what people say at face value. I always try to see it in the perspective of the story. Like with Cell and the Solar System stuff. I accepted that statement and I was at last proven to be right when Beerus was said to manage destroy the whole solar system instantly. I see that the power jump make sense. How he got that power boost isn't my problem but he needs that power boost so that the story to be consistent enough. If say that Piccolo is as weak as what you guys say. The charging time for makankosappo needs to either be longer or not pierce the barrier. 10 seconds is not enough to break the barrier if as you guys said Piccolo is that weak.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:53 am

fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
I can see your opinion fine. I don't agree. I stated my reasons why, and you don't agree with me either. If he were really playing keep away because of that, then why did no one say anything? Dragon Ball is the kind of story that explains this. Heck during Piccolo explaining his strategy, not once does he mention he avoided Frost because he was afraid what happened to Goku would happen to him. Why wasn't that included when he was saying his plan? His comments to me mean he didn't want to fight head on because he wasn't strong enough to. Krillin's comment to me adds to that he's making up the difference in strength with a powerful move. I've seen fair enough reasons for both sides. I just don't see it yet.
But he did say that when Goku lost maybe it was due to brain damage. I don't think he needs to state it twice. As I said, using a strategy doesn't mean he is weaker and fighting head on doesn't mean that he is stronger. That's a misconception. Piccolo had fought stronger opponents head on. But this time he can think of a strategy to win. That's why he say that to Frost. I don't take what people say at face value. I always try to see it in the perspective of the story. Like with Cell and the Solar System stuff. I accepted that statement and I was at last proven to be right when Beerus was said to manage destroy the whole solar system instantly. I see that the power jump make sense. How he got that power boost isn't my problem but he needs that power boost so that the story to be consistent enough. If say that Piccolo is as weak as what you guys say. The charging time for makankosappo needs to either be longer or not pierce the barrier. 10 seconds is not enough to break the barrier if as you guys said Piccolo is that weak.
Yes, but he doesn't know whether it was Frosts doing or not. They probably wouldn't think so considering they believe Frost is a good guy who is pure, who wouldn't do anything underhanded. Neither does Goku get what he's doing either. Why can't someone also say "He seems to be avoiding Frost to avoid what he may have did to Goku". Dragon Ball does this all the time. Piccolo has fought stronger opponents head on, and it usually ends badly. He didn't fight head on here probably for that same reason. Why did he tell Frost to use a lesser form if he himself didn't believe he could take Frost on? He can clearly sense how strong Frost is, so he should know, and yet he still wanted Frost to go to a lower level. He chose to leave himself open instead and keep himself at a distance to charge his attack. I agreed with the Cell statement which unlike Piccolo, he actually says something about his power. Why can't anyone sense how strong Piccolo is and compare him to Frost? Why is Boo such a big loss when he is supposedly trash compared to everyone else on the team? Why didn't Piccolo mention he was avoiding Frost because of how he affected Goku during his spiel? Considering he felt he won the bout he'd have said he was also wary of Frosts tricks.

Piccolo's charge time can easily have gone down as he's had years to improve his technique. As for the barrier we have no idea at what level it's at. Champa thought Goku and Vegeta were nothing special when they were in their weighted gear, so it's probably at the very least at that level. The makankosappo is also like the kienzan, a piercing technique. It's an attack made to cut through people, not explode on people. If they said early on that barrier could contain the full might of Champa or Freeza or Vados or something, that would be more of a convincing feat. Instead it's completely vague. Champa's attack didn't leave much of an impression. We know he didn't go all out.

Dragon Ball is incredibly simple. They give an explanation to pretty much everything no matter how simple it is. If they want someone to know something they will flat out say it like they have in the past. If they wanted Piccolo to be uber powerful, they'd flat out say Piccolo really improved with his training. They always comment on that when someone does. For me if they don't say comment on something or say straight up someone powered up, then they probably didn't do it to a significant degree. Let's see if next episode when Piccolo is on the sides, Goku says he really became powerful while training with Gohan, which I remind Gohan did say was the basics he was re-learning with Piccolo. So he relearned the basics while getting Piccolo and himself to god level somehow. Piccolo has a better training regiment than Whis somehow.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:14 am

dbzfan7 wrote: Yes, but he doesn't know whether it was Frosts doing or not. They probably wouldn't think so considering they believe Frost is a good guy who is pure, who wouldn't do anything underhanded. Neither does Goku get what he's doing either. Why can't someone also say "He seems to be avoiding Frost to avoid what he may have did to Goku". Dragon Ball does this all the time. Piccolo has fought stronger opponents head on, and it usually ends badly. He didn't fight head on here probably for that same reason. Why did he tell Frost to use a lesser form if he himself didn't believe he could take Frost on? He can clearly sense how strong Frost is, so he should know, and yet he still wanted Frost to go to a lower level. He chose to leave himself open instead and keep himself at a distance to charge his attack. I also don't want to go into the Cell thing so I'll leave it there since there's a thread for that. Why can't anyone sense how strong Piccolo is and compare him to Frost? Why is Boo such a big loss when he is supposedly trash compared to everyone else on the team? Why didn't Piccolo mention he was avoiding Frost because of how he affected Goku during his spiel? Considering he felt he won the bout he'd have said he was also wary of Frosts tricks.

Piccolo's charge time can easily have gone down as he's had years to improve his technique. As for the barrier we have no idea at what level it's at. Champa thought Goku and Vegeta were nothing special when they were in their weighted gear, so it's probably at the very least at that level. The makankosappo is also like the kienzan, a piercing technique. It's an attack made to cut through people, not explode on people. If they said early on that barrier could contain the full might of Champa or Freeza or Vados or something, that would be more of a convincing feat. Instead it's completely vague.
Piccolo concludes that Goku lost conscious because of some head injury. Piccolo doesn't want that and just fought from a far. That a pretty good reason if you ask me. As I said Piccolo could be be weaker but not by your much of weaker. Asking Frost to power down a bit so he could win doesn't seem much of a stretch. It doesn't matter if Frost is good or bad because Piccolo already concludes that Goku lost to head injury. Leaving himself open is a strategy so that isn't a problem.

So, Piccolo had fought stronger opponents before. It doesn't matter he lost or won but he did do it. So, saying that he uses a strategy just because he is so much much weaker is wrong at this point.

The barrier must be at least strong enough to contain the fight with Goku and Frost at least. Not SSJB Goku but Base Goku and 3rd form frost at least. That's at least because we don't know if a charge up Kamehameha from SSJ Goku can destroy the barrier. Yes Piccolo could have improved the technique like Goku and everyone else could improve their technique. Eventhough the technique is a piercing technique it still needs a lot of power to pierce it. And this is also a charging technique unlike the kienzan which isn't. Kienzan maybe is a more powerful technique but we don't know that. Having Piccolo weak and still manage to pierce it wouldn't make any sense without having it charge the whole time like I thought he did. Yes, if Piccolo didn't lose his concentration and manage to shoot the makankosappo maybe I would also think that he didn't get that much stronger but charging it for only 10 seconds made Piccolo in my mind much stronger than he previously is.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:32 am

fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: Yes, but he doesn't know whether it was Frosts doing or not. They probably wouldn't think so considering they believe Frost is a good guy who is pure, who wouldn't do anything underhanded. Neither does Goku get what he's doing either. Why can't someone also say "He seems to be avoiding Frost to avoid what he may have did to Goku". Dragon Ball does this all the time. Piccolo has fought stronger opponents head on, and it usually ends badly. He didn't fight head on here probably for that same reason. Why did he tell Frost to use a lesser form if he himself didn't believe he could take Frost on? He can clearly sense how strong Frost is, so he should know, and yet he still wanted Frost to go to a lower level. He chose to leave himself open instead and keep himself at a distance to charge his attack. I also don't want to go into the Cell thing so I'll leave it there since there's a thread for that. Why can't anyone sense how strong Piccolo is and compare him to Frost? Why is Boo such a big loss when he is supposedly trash compared to everyone else on the team? Why didn't Piccolo mention he was avoiding Frost because of how he affected Goku during his spiel? Considering he felt he won the bout he'd have said he was also wary of Frosts tricks.

Piccolo's charge time can easily have gone down as he's had years to improve his technique. As for the barrier we have no idea at what level it's at. Champa thought Goku and Vegeta were nothing special when they were in their weighted gear, so it's probably at the very least at that level. The makankosappo is also like the kienzan, a piercing technique. It's an attack made to cut through people, not explode on people. If they said early on that barrier could contain the full might of Champa or Freeza or Vados or something, that would be more of a convincing feat. Instead it's completely vague.
Piccolo concludes that Goku lost conscious because of some head injury. Piccolo doesn't want that and just fought from a far. That a pretty good reason if you ask me. As I said Piccolo could be be weaker but not by your much of weaker. Asking Frost to power down a bit so he could win doesn't seem much of a stretch. It doesn't matter if Frost is good or bad because Piccolo already concludes that Goku lost to head injury. Leaving himself open is a strategy so that isn't a problem.

So, Piccolo had fought stronger opponents before. It doesn't matter he lost or won but he did do it. So, saying that he uses a strategy just because he is so much much weaker is wrong at this point.

The barrier must be at least strong enough to contain the fight with Goku and Frost at least. Not SSJB Goku but Base Goku and 3rd form frost at least. That's at least because we don't know if a charge up Kamehameha from SSJ Goku can destroy the barrier. Yes Piccolo could have improved the technique like Goku and everyone else could improve their technique. Eventhough the technique is a piercing technique it still needs a lot of power to pierce it. And this is also a charging technique unlike the kienzan which isn't. Kienzan maybe is a more powerful technique but we don't know that. Having Piccolo weak and still manage to pierce it wouldn't make any sense without having it charge the whole time like I thought he did. Yes, if Piccolo didn't lose his concentration and manage to shoot the makankosappo maybe I would also think that he didn't get that much stronger but charging it for only 10 seconds made Piccolo in my mind much stronger than he previously is.
That's the conclusion you came to, not what I believe is said. It's fair to believe so, but that isn't what I think they mean. I don't believe that is the case, or Piccolo would have literally said that he avoided Frost to avoid what happened to Goku. He said everything else in his plan, and yet that doesn't come up? Dragon Ball is simple, but not simple enough to have him just add a single extra line? He didn't ask Frost to power down a bit, he wanted him to use a weaker form, which is powering down a lot. He would not say such a thing if he was on par with him. Piccolo would want to fight Frost as he is as that's what a warrior would do. He wanted Frost to power down to give him more of a chance. Frost reassured that he isn't at his peak so Piccolo wouldn't have to worry about having a much harder time.

In his fight with Nappa his plan was to grab his tail, so he did go in close for that very reason. He needed to. He also had a planned team attack with Gohan too since they weren't totally outclassed by Nappa if they worked together. Here he knew going head to head was a bad idea, and instead relied on trying to power up his attack, and catch Frost off guard. He didn't go head to head, combined with wanting Frost to power down to a previous form, because Frost was at least strong enough to make hand to hand confrontation not the best idea. That's what I got from it.

Champa's dinky attack was a test, which was based on what he thought the level of the fights would be at. He also said he'd be embarrassed if someone broke his barrier. If Goku's kamehameha hit the barrier it probably would have broken. The Makankosappo may need to be charged, but to take out Frost. We don't know how powerful the barrier is. If we saw Goku fire a kamehameha at it and it didn't break, that'd be a good sign. We just see a casual blast that anyone else coulda done. We are not given any kind of indication how much effort is behind it. Both the Makankosappo and Kienzan are piercing/cut techniques which distribute their force in a smaller point, while other attacks are more disperse. That makes shattering something far easier by attacking a single point instead of a greater surface area with an explosion.

I'm not liking this conversation as this isn't a fun sharing of opinions. You're making it clear to me you seem to be trying to say my opinion is wrong and yours is right. I am not interested in that kind of a conversation. Disagree with my opinion if you want, but it's my opinion. You have said you disagreed with it, and we are just circle jerking because you seem to want me to believe your opinion. I do not. I gave you my reasons why. They do not suede you as yours do not me. I see this is getting pointless. This argument is entirely pointless when the show isn't finished yet. So I say we wait to find out what the next Super episodes have to say, and leave it at that. Cause I am tired of just head butting opinions back and forth on a show that hasn't even finished yet. As far as I'm concerned these are two speculative opinions for an on going anime.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:53 am

dbzfan7 wrote: That's the conclusion you came to, not what I believe is said. It's fair to believe so, but that isn't what I think they mean. I don't believe that is the case, or Piccolo would have literally said that he avoided Frost to avoid what happened to Goku. He said everything else in his plan, and yet that doesn't come up? Dragon Ball is simple, but not simple enough to have him just add a single extra line? He didn't ask Frost to power down a bit, he wanted him to use a weaker form, which is powering down a lot. He would not say such a thing if he was on par with him. Piccolo would want to fight Frost as he is as that's what a warrior would do. He wanted Frost to power down to give him more of a chance. Frost reassured that he isn't at his peak so Piccolo wouldn't have to worry about having a much harder time.

In his fight with Nappa his plan was to grab his tail, so he did go in close for that very reason. He needed to. He also had a planned team attack with Gohan too since they weren't totally outclassed by Nappa if they worked together. Here he knew going head to head was a bad idea, and instead relied on trying to power up his attack, and catch Frost off guard. He didn't go head to head, combined with wanting Frost to power down to a previous form, because Frost was at least strong enough to make hand to hand confrontation not the best idea. That's what I got from it.

Champa's dinky attack was a test, which was based on what he thought the level of the fights would be at. He also said he'd be embarrassed if someone broke his barrier. If Goku's kamehameha hit the barrier it probably would have broken. The Makankosappo may need to be charged, but to take out Frost. We don't know how powerful the barrier is. If we saw Goku fire a kamehameha at it and it didn't break, that'd be a good sign. We just see a casual blast that anyone else coulda done. We are not given any kind of indication how much effort is behind it. Both the Makankosappo and Kienzan are piercing/cut techniques which distribute their force in a smaller point, while other attacks are more disperse. That makes shattering something far easier by attacking a single point instead of a greater surface area with an explosion.

I'm not liking this conversation as this isn't a fun sharing of opinions. You're making it clear to me you seem to be trying to say my opinion is wrong and yours is right. I am not interested in that kind of a conversation. Disagree with my opinion if you want, but it's my opinion. You have said you disagreed with it, and we are just circle jerking because you seem to want me to believe your opinion. I do not. I gave you my reasons why. They do not suede you as yours do not me. I see this is getting pointless. This argument is entirely pointless when the show isn't finished yet. So I say we wait to find out what the next Super episodes have to say, and leave it at that. Cause I am tired of just head butting opinions back and forth on a show that hasn't even finished yet. As far as I'm concerned these are two speculative opinions for an on going anime.
I'm not saying you are wrong but I'm pointing out that you aren't completely right either. Or not as much as you think you are. Yes going with a strategy to win if he had it is Piccolo way of fighting. But you said that Piccolo need a strategy to fight because he is weak which is not exactly true. He doesn't say it because he already said it. You don't need him to say it again because it was already shown how Goku lost and how he reacted to it. To me Frost going down a level isn't that much of a power lost as he already lost a lot of his power to Goku until he couldn't kill Piccolo ACCIDENTALLY. Look at the relevance that line had.
That's why I said we don't know how strong the barrier actually is but it would still be strong enough to hold a fight between Base Goku and 3rd Form Frost. (And most of you here think that Piccolo is much weaker than this or so I think. Maybe I'm wrong.)
The conversation is useless if you think it is but I don't see it as useless as I can maybe manage to change your opinion about this.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:06 am

fexus wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: That's the conclusion you came to, not what I believe is said. It's fair to believe so, but that isn't what I think they mean. I don't believe that is the case, or Piccolo would have literally said that he avoided Frost to avoid what happened to Goku. He said everything else in his plan, and yet that doesn't come up? Dragon Ball is simple, but not simple enough to have him just add a single extra line? He didn't ask Frost to power down a bit, he wanted him to use a weaker form, which is powering down a lot. He would not say such a thing if he was on par with him. Piccolo would want to fight Frost as he is as that's what a warrior would do. He wanted Frost to power down to give him more of a chance. Frost reassured that he isn't at his peak so Piccolo wouldn't have to worry about having a much harder time.

In his fight with Nappa his plan was to grab his tail, so he did go in close for that very reason. He needed to. He also had a planned team attack with Gohan too since they weren't totally outclassed by Nappa if they worked together. Here he knew going head to head was a bad idea, and instead relied on trying to power up his attack, and catch Frost off guard. He didn't go head to head, combined with wanting Frost to power down to a previous form, because Frost was at least strong enough to make hand to hand confrontation not the best idea. That's what I got from it.

Champa's dinky attack was a test, which was based on what he thought the level of the fights would be at. He also said he'd be embarrassed if someone broke his barrier. If Goku's kamehameha hit the barrier it probably would have broken. The Makankosappo may need to be charged, but to take out Frost. We don't know how powerful the barrier is. If we saw Goku fire a kamehameha at it and it didn't break, that'd be a good sign. We just see a casual blast that anyone else coulda done. We are not given any kind of indication how much effort is behind it. Both the Makankosappo and Kienzan are piercing/cut techniques which distribute their force in a smaller point, while other attacks are more disperse. That makes shattering something far easier by attacking a single point instead of a greater surface area with an explosion.

I'm not liking this conversation as this isn't a fun sharing of opinions. You're making it clear to me you seem to be trying to say my opinion is wrong and yours is right. I am not interested in that kind of a conversation. Disagree with my opinion if you want, but it's my opinion. You have said you disagreed with it, and we are just circle jerking because you seem to want me to believe your opinion. I do not. I gave you my reasons why. They do not suede you as yours do not me. I see this is getting pointless. This argument is entirely pointless when the show isn't finished yet. So I say we wait to find out what the next Super episodes have to say, and leave it at that. Cause I am tired of just head butting opinions back and forth on a show that hasn't even finished yet. As far as I'm concerned these are two speculative opinions for an on going anime.
I'm not saying you are wrong but I'm pointing out that you aren't completely right either. Or not as much as you think you are. Yes going with a strategy to win if he had it is Piccolo way of fighting. But you said that Piccolo need a strategy to fight because he is weak which is not exactly true. He doesn't say it because he already said it. You don't need him to say it again because it was already shown how Goku lost and how he reacted to it. To me Frost going down a level isn't that much of a power lost as he already lost a lot of his power to Goku until he couldn't kill Piccolo ACCIDENTALLY. Look at the relevance that line had.
That's why I said we don't know how strong the barrier actually is but it would still be strong enough to hold a fight between Base Goku and 3rd Form Frost. (And most of you here think that Piccolo is much weaker than this or so I think. Maybe I'm wrong.)
The conversation is useless if you think it is but I don't see it as useless as I can maybe manage to change your opinion about this.
I'm not treating myself as completely right. I'm saying my opinion. As right as I think I am? This is my opinion based on a solid basis on observation, which can be right or wrong as any other opinion based on observations. See what I mean when you seem to be more about winning an argument, than sharing a view point. You aren't simply trying to show me a different point of view, you're trying to convince me you're right. Which is utterly pointless since the show isn't even over yet. So it still has plenty of time to answer some of these questions. I don't feel the need to get out my points any further, because I already got them out. So all that can be said and done, is wait for the following episodes, or perhaps the upcoming manga chapter to shed some more light on the situation. I don't see a point in re explaining my points or further justifying them. I'm not here to take down your argument, I state why I don't believe it is all. Your argument is well and dandy.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:22 am

Everyone was underestimating Piccolo and that is why their was no comment. Goku will surely at the start of episode 35 say he has improved. Just because no one said how strong he is does not mean he has not got stronger the fight proved that he has. Remember Frost had to cheat to win. If Piccolo has not got extremely strong why did he not use the Special Beam Cannon against Frieza when Final form Frost is stronger than final form Frieza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:27 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:Everyone was underestimating Piccolo and that is why their was no comment. Goku will surely at the start of episode 35 say he has improved. Just because no one said how strong he is does not mean he has not got stronger the fight proved that he has. Remember Frost had to cheat to win. If Piccolo has not got extremely strong why did he not use the Special Beam Cannon against Frieza when Final form Frost is stronger than final form Frieza.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:47 am

apex_pretador wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Everyone was underestimating Piccolo and that is why their was no comment. Goku will surely at the start of episode 35 say he has improved. Just because no one said how strong he is does not mean he has not got stronger the fight proved that he has. Remember Frost had to cheat to win. If Piccolo has not got extremely strong why did he not use the Special Beam Cannon against Frieza when Final form Frost is stronger than final form Frieza.
Frost won by vegeta's interference.
Yeah I worded it wrong, basically I meant that Piccolo was going to win with out the disqualication of Frost so Frost was not strong enough to beat Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:03 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:Everyone was underestimating Piccolo and that is why their was no comment. Goku will surely at the start of episode 35 say he has improved. Just because no one said how strong he is does not mean he has not got stronger the fight proved that he has. Remember Frost had to cheat to win. If Piccolo has not got extremely strong why did he not use the Special Beam Cannon against Frieza when Final form Frost is stronger than final form Frieza.
We don't really know how well Frost compares to Freeza. Goku doesn't say, nor seem that impressed with Frost. It's really a guessing game at the moment. If he said he was as strong, stronger, or weaker, we'd know. So he could be anywhere really. Freeza also is out to kill while Frost isn't, making the Makankosappo a less viable move. Frost also as said before he was weakened greatly before his bout with Piccolo, to the point his knee's quivered at the end of his bout with Goku. Even while weakened, and while Piccolo can sense ki, Piccolo still wanted Frost to get much weaker by going to a previous form. Why ask that if he's already on par with a weakened Frost? Is he coward now? Piccolo undermines himself by asking such a thing. It's not til Frost tells him he can't accidentally kill him that he feels more reassured. So he can't be destroyed easily. Why would everyone still undermine him when they see him fight? Why would they not sense his ki immediately and see he is stronger? Why not mention it immediately, like how Krillin immediately mentioned how good he was against Gero. Yet Krillin only talks about his technique this time, and not his power. Krillin didn't underestimate Piccolo, yet the technique was all that was worth mentioning. The only quote we got was the technique brings Piccolo beyond his limits, and that's it. So that's what I go by.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:11 pm

To simplify what dbzfan7 said above: look at Piccolo vs Frost as a slightly more one-sided Goku vs Cell fight. Piccolo is Goku, someone who, while strong, needs a technique to overcome the gap between himself and his opponent. In the case of Goku, it was charging up a Kamehameha to power up enough to blow Cell in half, with Piccolo, it's charging up a Devil Drill Beam to blast his opponent out of the ring.

If Piccolo was confident that he could take Frost without using such a technique or without asking him to devolve into a lesser form, he would have but he doesn't. That doesn't mean Piccolo is fodder or a weakling, just that he needs an all or nothing tactic to compensate for an obvious gap between himself and Frost just like Goku did against Cell.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:15 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:To simplify what dbzfan7 said above: look at Piccolo vs Frost as a slightly more one-sided Goku vs Cell fight. Piccolo is Goku, someone who, while strong, needs a technique to overcome the gap between himself and his opponent. In the case of Goku, it was charging up a Kamehameha to power up enough to blow Cell in half, with Piccolo, it's charging up a Devil Drill Beam to blast his opponent out of the ring.

If Piccolo was confident that he could take Frost without using such a technique or without asking him to devolve into a lesser form, he would have but he doesn't. That doesn't mean Piccolo is fodder or a weakling, just that he needs an all or nothing tactic to compensate for an obvious gap between himself and Frost just like Goku did against Cell.
A very good comparison. Goku had to use a full power Kamehameha because he knew in the long run he'd lose. So he feigned an attempt to destroy earth and then teleported and hit Cell with all his might. Though I have no idea how the Makankosappo is gonna push Frost out. If anything it's going to pierce or kill him if Piccolo isn't careful.

I'm just kinda tired of the arguing over theories. Unlike in DBZ where the story is finished so we have everything, we don't have everything with Super. So for all I know they could be right. I personally don't see it since the previous series taught me how they explain things. I didn't see it here this time, so I don't quite believe it yet. Though in episode 35 they could very well say that about Piccolo and have waited til then. I don't know yet. The pain of arguing about Super, besides it's fucked up sense of power levels, is it being incomplete. So nobody is really right or wrong I think til the series or at least arc is complete.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:24 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:To simplify what dbzfan7 said above: look at Piccolo vs Frost as a slightly more one-sided Goku vs Cell fight. Piccolo is Goku, someone who, while strong, needs a technique to overcome the gap between himself and his opponent. In the case of Goku, it was charging up a Kamehameha to power up enough to blow Cell in half, with Piccolo, it's charging up a Devil Drill Beam to blast his opponent out of the ring.

If Piccolo was confident that he could take Frost without using such a technique or without asking him to devolve into a lesser form, he would have but he doesn't. That doesn't mean Piccolo is fodder or a weakling, just that he needs an all or nothing tactic to compensate for an obvious gap between himself and Frost just like Goku did against Cell.
A very good comparison. Goku had to use a full power Kamehameha because he knew in the long run he'd lose. So he feigned an attempt to destroy earth and then teleported and hit Cell with all his might. Though I have no idea how the Makankosappo is gonna push Frost out. If anything it's going to pierce or kill him if Piccolo isn't careful.

I'm just kinda tired of the arguing over theories. Unlike in DBZ where the story is finished so we have everything, we don't have everything with Super. So for all I know they could be right. I personally don't see it since the previous series taught me how they explain things. I didn't see it here this time, so I don't quite believe it yet. Though in episode 35 they could very well say that about Piccolo and have waited til then. I don't know yet. The pain of arguing about Super, besides it's fucked up sense of power levels, is it being incomplete. So nobody is really right or wrong I think til the series or at least arc is complete.
Maybe Piccolo was gonna shoot it at his feet then let the force of the impact blow him away? :P

But I get what you mean concerning theories which is exactly what a lot of people, myself included got annoyed by the influx of videos about why Goku lost to Frost. They were either completely stupid (Goku throwing the fight) to more stupid (Champa poisoning the egg) to somewhat clever (Chi-Chi's cooking giving him food poisoning) all of which were pointless because we knew it would get addressed the week later.

With power levels though, given how bad they are with explaining stuff or come up with explanations that don't sound like bullshit, I think that's more of a forgivable grey area for the time being.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:32 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:To simplify what dbzfan7 said above: look at Piccolo vs Frost as a slightly more one-sided Goku vs Cell fight. Piccolo is Goku, someone who, while strong, needs a technique to overcome the gap between himself and his opponent. In the case of Goku, it was charging up a Kamehameha to power up enough to blow Cell in half, with Piccolo, it's charging up a Devil Drill Beam to blast his opponent out of the ring.

If Piccolo was confident that he could take Frost without using such a technique or without asking him to devolve into a lesser form, he would have but he doesn't. That doesn't mean Piccolo is fodder or a weakling, just that he needs an all or nothing tactic to compensate for an obvious gap between himself and Frost just like Goku did against Cell.
A very good comparison. Goku had to use a full power Kamehameha because he knew in the long run he'd lose. So he feigned an attempt to destroy earth and then teleported and hit Cell with all his might. Though I have no idea how the Makankosappo is gonna push Frost out. If anything it's going to pierce or kill him if Piccolo isn't careful.

I'm just kinda tired of the arguing over theories. Unlike in DBZ where the story is finished so we have everything, we don't have everything with Super. So for all I know they could be right. I personally don't see it since the previous series taught me how they explain things. I didn't see it here this time, so I don't quite believe it yet. Though in episode 35 they could very well say that about Piccolo and have waited til then. I don't know yet. The pain of arguing about Super, besides it's fucked up sense of power levels, is it being incomplete. So nobody is really right or wrong I think til the series or at least arc is complete.
Maybe Piccolo was gonna shoot it at his feet then let the force of the impact blow him away? :P

But I get what you mean concerning theories which is exactly what a lot of people, myself included got annoyed by the influx of videos about why Goku lost to Frost. They were either completely stupid (Goku throwing the fight) to more stupid (Champa poisoning the egg) to somewhat clever (Chi-Chi's cooking giving him food poisoning) all of which were pointless because we knew it would get addressed the week later.

With power levels though, given how bad they are with explaining stuff or come up with explanations that don't sound like bullshit, I think that's more of a forgivable grey area for the time being.
A foot drill beam to puncture dat ass. Shoulda seen that coming.

Eh I think it's as bad here, because so many people are talking like they are right and so sure that is how it is, which is annoying. It's acted like everything is sealed in stone. I don't bring up something like Vegeta apparently defeating frost in one attack, because I don't actually know the full story. That's what the summary says, but even so it's not what I've seen. He could destroy Frost as a Super Saiyan, which would make Piccolo look better depending on how much of a fight Frost puts up (Which is probably nothing considering he couldn't against Goku). But it can mean Vegeta even against a tired Frost needed SSJ. If Vegeta destroys him in base, then that is gonna make Piccolo look real bad. We just have to wait and see.
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