Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TekTheNinja]

I come back here and hear about Kaio-Ken and I'm just like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b5Jji8uaFk

Anyway I don't really get how this could work honestly, but hopefully it's explained in the show... I'm not holding my breath though.

[apex_pretador]

if goku hasn't forgotten about kaioken, then why didn't he use it against cell?


Why not against kid-buu? (Ok stamina)

[TheMikado]

if goku hasn't forgotten about kaioken, then why didn't he use it against cell?


Why not against kid-buu? (Ok stamina)

Pretty much Fking this. Why even run the risk of letting all those people die. Why even bother. With the small x4 SSJ3 boost why not use Kaioken x10 and decimate them in like a second.

[buutenks]

Why he didnt use it vs cell, toriyama forgot kk exists ^^

In universe it could be goku was so focused on mastering ssj and gohna's potential he totally forgot about kk.

Plus i doubt he could have gone beyond a kkx2 wtih ssj stacked. Which wouldnt have been able to kill cell.

Anyways my new PL list, using toriyama;s scale obviously.

Bog:
ssj3 goku=0,03
ssj2 raging vegeta=0.3/ssj2 raging vegeta galic gun= 0.7
beerus(10%)=1
Ultimate gohan=0,02(got much weaker)
Mr buu=0,023(he lasted longer than gohan)
ssg goku=6
ssj goku(with god ki)=5.7
base goku(with god ki and enraged)=7
base goku(god ki gone, this is between bog and rof arc prior to going to beerus)=0,02

Rof
base goku/vegeta(post whis training)=0,07
FF freeza=0,07
Golden freeza=7
ssj blue=6.5

U6
botamo=to low to list
base goku/vegeta=0,08
ssj vegeta/goku=1
ssj blue vegeta/goku=7.2
assault form frost=0,06/FF frost=0,1
Piccolo=0,02
base cabe=0,05/ssj cabe=0,6
magetta(i will write different numbers to his dura speed and strength):
speed=0,01
strength=0,6(was able to hold off ssj vegeta's punch with both his hands)
durability=2 or 3
Hit(usually i would have placed him above ssj blue,however due to the summary leaks i see no reason to do so)=6.5

And now ssj blue + kk goku=10.5 ^^ ofc this is for a brief moment.

I always took it as KK=x1.5 and kk2=x2.

if goku hasn't forgotten about kaioken, then why didn't he use it against cell?


Why not against kid-buu? (Ok stamina)

Pretty much Fking this. Why even run the risk of letting all those people die. Why even bother. With the small x4 SSJ3 boost why not use Kaioken x10 and decimate them in like a second.

I doubt goku;s body could have taken ssj2+kkx10,perhaps even ssj2+ kkx3 would break his body.

Plus from the summary goku is using KKx1 and even that will proly be very taxing on his body, going any higher he might blow up lol.

[Bullza]

Probably is the strong word here. He's just guessing by the looks.

He was but as a reader that line tells us that he is stronger. He was also ordering him around so it was evident that he was stronger.

When were they "unnerved"?

As soon as he turns into their Final Form it was clear they were unnerved, both Goku and Vegeta had their mouth open and had sweat drops. Vegeta was doing the stuttering " w..ah...ah" thing and then Goku says "Holy crap".

They were unnerved or at least taken a back by it. When Frost transformed and he was supposed to be stronger than Goku there was no reaction over it.

And piccolo reaching fat buu levels of power from like 1/3 his level in over 8 months and not getting commented is not a stretch to say when everyone is sensing powers stronger than buuhan on daily basis.

Well it doesn't seem as ludicrous now that it doesn't look like Piccolo is God tier. Him being Good Buu tier I have no problem with but he shouldn't be that low.

He's seemingly above base Goku who was above Frieza who was tremendously more powerful than him in his first form. He's gotta be Mystic Gohan level by now.

[Noah]

This is a theory so bear with me, an out-of-the-universe one. When proposed BoG and likely RoF, Mr.Toriyama didn't know he would be given the chance to write more and therefore to image plot with future consequences.

Which brings me to the inevitable retcon in BoG. When it was a isolated movie, I think Goku absorbing the God Powers was intended for that moment, it's a moment that the character deserves, because eventually he will lose to Beerus. And let's all agree Goku is a fighting genius.

But with RoF and the necessity of continuity, that might have been dropped. To give born to a new source of merchandising. The SSJB, the new transformation for the new movie that was stronger than SSJG.

But then! New series! So now, we have definitely continuity and the need to make everything glue, but they couldn't just modify the BoG arc. The impact would be lost. So now we have Whis line, which makes Goku absorbing the God powers a momentary thing (implied not said), besides adding the SSJ forms that were absent in the RoF movies and arc.

Making the intended progression in Super: Base < SSJ < SSJB(Only comparable with SSJG).

Which kinda rules out the 6-10-15 scale of BoG, if the Kaioken makes it's return and doesn't follow it's multiplier (we don't know how they will deal with it).

What do you guys think?

I do like it that we can ignore this 6-10-15 stuff, I mean... I don't know why people insist in this too much? Is not like Toriyama expect fans to truly absorb his words as a fact that can't be changed.

Anyway I don't know if I understood this right, but... You're saying there's no such thing as Base God Saiyans?

[apex_pretador]

When were they "unnerved"?

As soon as he turns into their Final Form it was clear they were unnerved, both Goku and Vegeta had their mouth open and had sweat drops. Vegeta was doing the stuttering " w..ah...ah" thing and then Goku says "Holy crap".

They were unnerved or at least taken a back by it. When Frost transformed and he was supposed to be stronger than Goku there was no reaction over it.

And then vegeta proceeds to troll freeza in an epic fashion.
He or goku didn't seem to take him seriously either.

However, I do agree that it'd have been better if frost turned out to be weaker than freeza, or freeza turned out to be stronger than saiyans in base. The first form freeza's performance post revival and forst vs piccolo, is too much weird to believe.

[TheMikado]

if goku hasn't forgotten about kaioken, then why didn't he use it against cell?


Why not against kid-buu? (Ok stamina)

Pretty much Fking this. Why even run the risk of letting all those people die. Why even bother. With the small x4 SSJ3 boost why not use Kaioken x10 and decimate them in like a second.

I doubt goku;s body could have taken ssj2+kkx10,perhaps even ssj2+ kkx3 would break his body.

Plus from the summary goku is using KKx1 and even that will proly be very taxing on his body, going any higher he might blow up lol.[/quote]

Considering he had to go through the entire SSJ3 transformation and Vegeta gets God Tier rage boosts I would think he could at least do a Kaioken x5 I mean he's rocking SSB AND kaioken at this point.

Another question was Goku practicing this in the RoSaT and NOT teaching Vegeta the technique?? Because that would suck plus Goku not showing him instant transmission either but probably practicing with it against him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have a question, since when did Toei's word become higher than Toriyama's word?

I mean, Toriyama wrote the BoG & FnF movies, and the Super manga is made by him & Toyotaro, while Toei is doing their own adaptation with the Super anime. Is the DB/Z/Kai anime series above the original manga as well?

[fexus]

I have a question, since when did Toei's word become higher than Toriyama's word?

I mean, Toriyama wrote the BoG & FnF movies, and the Super manga is made by him & Toyotaro, while Toei is doing their own adaptation with the Super anime. Is the DB/Z/Kai anime series above the original manga as well?

Because we don't know what's Toei's word and Toriyama's word is. For example in the recent interview, Toriyama stated that he doesn't have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis yet. The anime seems like it's doing a pretty good job of showing that.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm starting to think Super Saiyan Blue isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God. I mean, that would clash with some implications about the form surpassing Super Saiyan God. But, in another hand, it would make Super Saiyan God and all that universe-destroying-waves stuff feel more special.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Didn't the Narrator say Super Saiyan Blue exceeded the power of Super Saiyan God?

[LightBing]

This is a theory so bear with me, an out-of-the-universe one. When proposed BoG and likely RoF, Mr.Toriyama didn't know he would be given the chance to write more and therefore to image plot with future consequences.

Which brings me to the inevitable retcon in BoG. When it was a isolated movie, I think Goku absorbing the God Powers was intended for that moment, it's a moment that the character deserves, because eventually he will lose to Beerus. And let's all agree Goku is a fighting genius.

But with RoF and the necessity of continuity, that might have been dropped. To give born to a new source of merchandising. The SSJB, the new transformation for the new movie that was stronger than SSJG.

But then! New series! So now, we have definitely continuity and the need to make everything glue, but they couldn't just modify the BoG arc. The impact would be lost. So now we have Whis line, which makes Goku absorbing the God powers a momentary thing (implied not said), besides adding the SSJ forms that were absent in the RoF movies and arc.

Making the intended progression in Super: Base < SSJ < SSJB(Only comparable with SSJG).

Which kinda rules out the 6-10-15 scale of BoG, if the Kaioken makes it's return and doesn't follow it's multiplier (we don't know how they will deal with it).

What do you guys think?

I do like it that we can ignore this 6-10-15 stuff, I mean... I don't know why people insist in this too much? Is not like Toriyama expect fans to truly absorb his words as a fact that can't be changed.

Anyway I don't know if I understood this right, but... You're saying there's no such thing as Base God Saiyans?

I don't believe the abolition of the 6-10-15 scale is definite, yet. So far it still works, might not with the Kaioken, let's wait and see.

There's no Base God Saiyans, Goku never had God Ki in Base. He did had it's power, proven by Beerus commenting how he didn't lost power. Later we have Whis comment which tells us Goku and Vegeta aren't at the level of the Gods yet. So we have to assume Goku's display against Beerus was temporary.
This new status quo is never proven wrong. In RoF it's a fact the lack of God Ki in their bases, said directly here:

Spoiler:

Episode 24
Minute: 21
Context: Goku transforms into SSGSS.

Kuririn: "I can't sense any ki from Goku at all now!"
Gohan: "It seems he's somehow become a Super Saiyan God."
Kuririn: "But Gohan, take a good look at him. Goku's hair is blue!"
Tenshinhan: "If I remember it right, it was red when he fought Beerus."
Kame-Sen'nin: "Has Goku reached a level even higher than what he was at back then?"

People saying the Saiyans had God Ki in base are wrong. The Whis line is the explanation the show offered us, people are choosing to ignore it. I'll admit during the RoF arc, I saw how contradictory that line was with BoG but all further material is consistent with it. There's no reason not to take it as a fact, Whis is a trustworthy character who was training Goku and Vegeta. We just have to accept that BoG moment as a temporarily thing.

I'm starting to think Super Saiyan Blue isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God. I mean, that would clash with some implications about the form surpassing Super Saiyan God. But, in another hand, it would make Super Saiyan God and all that universe-destroying-waves stuff feel more special.

The narrator said SSJB surpassed SSJG. In my quote above we also have Kame Sennin wondering if the form is better than Super Saiyan God.

[dbzfan7]

I'm starting to think Super Saiyan Blue isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God. I mean, that would clash with some implications about the form surpassing Super Saiyan God. But, in another hand, it would make Super Saiyan God and all that universe-destroying-waves stuff feel more special.

The universe destroying waves thing feels kinda dumb to me. It was put out too soon. Because nothing comes close to reaching those levels somehow, it feels like an outlier. Though Beerus and Champa's "fight" seemed to imply the same level of destruction, nothing really comes close to it. Of course we can say they perfected that punch at the right angle garbage, but that really feels like a terrible cop out. Makes the whole scene feel pointless, and only Beerus, Whis, Champa, and Vados should be at that level for now.

[buutenks]

I'm starting to think Super Saiyan Blue isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God. I mean, that would clash with some implications about the form surpassing Super Saiyan God. But, in another hand, it would make Super Saiyan God and all that universe-destroying-waves stuff feel more special.

The universe destroying waves thing feels kinda dumb to me. It was put out too soon. Because nothing comes close to reaching those levels somehow, it feels like an outlier. Though Beerus and Champa's "fight" seemed to imply the same level of destruction, nothing really comes close to it. Of course we can say they perfected that punch at the right angle garbage, but that really feels like a terrible cop out. Makes the whole scene feel pointless, and only Beerus, Whis, Champa, and Vados should be at that level for now.

Well i wouldnt think so, considering the difference between goku,vegeta and beerus isnt astronomical.

It basically shows the difference between the god realm and the normal realm. Goku and vegeta r in the god realm so they have that power,while everyone else r in the lesser realm.

[Overlord78]

I'm starting to think Super Saiyan Blue isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God. I mean, that would clash with some implications about the form surpassing Super Saiyan God. But, in another hand, it would make Super Saiyan God and all that universe-destroying-waves stuff feel more special.

The universe destroying waves thing feels kinda dumb to me. It was put out too soon. Because nothing comes close to reaching those levels somehow, it feels like an outlier. Though Beerus and Champa's "fight" seemed to imply the same level of destruction, nothing really comes close to it. Of course we can say they perfected that punch at the right angle garbage, but that really feels like a terrible cop out. Makes the whole scene feel pointless, and only Beerus, Whis, Champa, and Vados should be at that level for now.

Well Beerus nullified that energy ball which would have destroyed the universe. Goku wouldn't have been able to do that and Toriyama doesn't plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him and Whis anytime soon. So in that sense they are the only ones at that level at the moment though Goku and Vegeta will likely reach that level at some point in the future.

[dbzfan7]

I'm starting to think Super Saiyan Blue isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God. I mean, that would clash with some implications about the form surpassing Super Saiyan God. But, in another hand, it would make Super Saiyan God and all that universe-destroying-waves stuff feel more special.

The universe destroying waves thing feels kinda dumb to me. It was put out too soon. Because nothing comes close to reaching those levels somehow, it feels like an outlier. Though Beerus and Champa's "fight" seemed to imply the same level of destruction, nothing really comes close to it. Of course we can say they perfected that punch at the right angle garbage, but that really feels like a terrible cop out. Makes the whole scene feel pointless, and only Beerus, Whis, Champa, and Vados should be at that level for now.

Well i wouldnt think so, considering the difference between goku,vegeta and beerus isnt astronomical.

It basically shows the difference between the god realm and the normal realm. Goku and vegeta r in the god realm so they have that power,while everyone else r in the lesser realm.

I'm not talking about what is, but what should have been. People already find it odd how tons of weaker attacks from people many times greater than the moon buster Roshi and early Piccolo, don't devastate the land, and planet easily. People came up with the condensing excuse which just like punch at the right angle one, is a dumb cop out. I say only those 4 should be that strong, or otherwise that great threat should be around. It's almost like it never actually happened, because there's never really a problem with Goku and Vegeta fighting or fighting others. That was the big take away from the Beerus fight. That level was so dangerous, that it threatened the universe. But now it could have never happened, and really we wouldn't have missed anything.

Well Beerus nullified that energy ball which would have destroyed the universe. Goku wouldn't have been able to do that and Toriyama doesn't plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him and Whis anytime soon. So in that sense they are the only ones at that level at the moment though Goku and Vegeta will likely reach that level at some point in the future.

The point is just a fight on that level is bad. That was the take away from Beerus. It's not safe to fight at that level. And yet with Freeza and so on, it's never a threat again. Goku's getting wailed on and can't counter, and there's no threat at all.

[Overlord78]

Well Beerus nullified that energy ball which would have destroyed the universe. Goku wouldn't have been able to do that and Toriyama doesn't plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him and Whis anytime soon. So in that sense they are the only ones at that level at the moment though Goku and Vegeta will likely reach that level at some point in the future.

The point is just a fight on that level is bad. That was the take away from Beerus. It's not safe to fight at that level. And yet with Freeza and so on, it's never a threat again. Goku's getting wailed on and can't counter, and there's no threat at all.[/quote]

Dragon Ball has always been inconsistent with its feats. Roshi can bust the moon yet is weaker than Piccolo Daimao who never showed anything on that level and Piccolo Jr who is stronger only managed to destroy an island, we never see any moon busting feats until the Saiyan Saga then. Freeza is the first guy we know that can planet bust easily yet we don't see any planets getting destroyed again until Buu shows up which means people powerscale everyone in the Cell saga from Freeza. Sure there's Cell's solar system buster statement but most people ignore that and call it a hyperbole. Then we have Beerus who destroys planets and stars just by sneezing and has the power to destroy the universe going from his fight with Goku and his "fight" with Champa which implied similar destruction but with 2 universes involved. We most likely won't be seeing anything on that level until probably the final villain. I do agree with you that only Whis, Vados, Beerus and Champa should be at that level at the moment.

[buutenks]

I'm not talking about what is, but what should have been. People already find it odd how tons of weaker attacks from people many times greater than the moon buster Roshi and early Piccolo, don't devastate the land, and planet easily. People came up with the condensing excuse which just like punch at the right angle one, is a dumb cop out. I say only those 4 should be that strong, or otherwise that great threat should be around. It's almost like it never actually happened, because there's never really a problem with Goku and Vegeta fighting or fighting others. That was the big take away from the Beerus fight. That level was so dangerous, that it threatened the universe. But now it could have never happened, and really we wouldn't have missed anything.



The point is just a fight on that level is bad. That was the take away from Beerus. It's not safe to fight at that level. And yet with Freeza and so on, it's never a threat again. Goku's getting wailed on and can't counter, and there's no threat at all.

I dont mind, considering so far only whis,vados champa and beerus are at that level.

Goku, vegeta or freeza by themselves dont have the power to destroy a universe, those shockwaves were created with the help of beerus also.

[TheMikado]

So question, how are we all rectifying the statement that not only will Goku and Vegeta not surpass Beerus but they won't even close to it when we already established in BOG that Goku had gotten to a level of over half Beerus power. If you want to use super content then how do you rectify that with Beerus Enraged Vegeta comment of 10%?