Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Omni King: ??

Omni King's Guards: ??

Vados/Whis: ??

Beerus/Champa: ??

Goku [Base]: 3,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 150,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 300,000,000,000,000
-- Kaio Ken x10: 3,000,000,000,000,000

Hit: 300,000,000,000,000

Vegeta [Base]: 3,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 150,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 300,000,000,000,000

Cabba [Base]: 2,500,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 125,000,000,000,000

Magetta: 4,000,000,000,000
-- Full Power: 100,000,000,000,000

Frost [First Form]: 1,500,000,000,000
-- Assault Form: 3,000,000,000,000
-- Final Form: 50,000,000,000,000
-- Tired: 30,000,000,000,000

Piccolo: 25,000,000,000,000

Botamo: 1,000,000,000,000

Gohan [Ultimate]: 600,000,000,000

Majin Boo: 20,000,000,000

Monaka: 5

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well yeah, Base Vegeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Cabba is equal to him.

Cabba is close, but not an equal to Vegeta. Especially in the anime, the difference is even bigger than in the manga.

[pacz360]

Well yeah, Base Vegeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Cabba is equal to him.

Cabba is close, but not an equal to Vegeta. Especially in the anime, the difference is even bigger than in the manga.

Vegeta himself stated their even in base especially in the anime vegeta didn't dominate until he went ssj.

[HeroR]

I know that but unless Piccolo's Makankosappo got dozens of times stronger I see no other way this can work.

Keep in mind that Piccolo's Makankosappo pierced Raditz, a fighter who was more than three time more powerful than him. Yes, Raditz was weakened by Gohan, but Raditz said that technique would kill him when he read the power level. So, it is not hard to imagine that Piccolo's Makankosappo could pierce Frost if he charged it long enough. Think of it as him putting all his energy into one spot and then firing it into a concentrated piercing beam. And even if the Makankosappo didn't pierce Frost, it could have knocked him out of ring.

[buutenks]

Gotenks surviving copy vegeta's punches isnt such a big deal, considering master roshi took a full on hit from powered up Tagoma and he didnt explode nor even get koed. Plus gotenks wasnt even able to move copy vegeta with his most powerful attacks.

or monaka withstanding goku's punch, which considering how weak he is, monaka should have had his head punched off.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta himself stated their even in base especially in the anime vegeta didn't dominate until he went ssj.

In the manga, Vegeta only said that he should be strong enough to hold his own against him, not that they are even. The way the fight went shows that they are not even, since Cabba barely damaged Vegeta with his multiple hits, while Vegeta caused damage to Cabba with one kick.

In the anime, we see that Vegeta was holding back the entire time, seeing how he tanked the punch like it was nothing at the end of their fight, when they were both Super Saiyans.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He was a newly transformed Super Saiyan. It isn't much of a stretch to think he couldn't control the power all that well.

[Bullza]

New episode. Doesn't really tell us anything we didn't really know.

Copy Vegeta can become Super Saiyan Blue so I guess he's the strongest Filler character yet if he wasn't already before.

[RandomGuy96]

New episode. Doesn't really tell us anything we didn't really know.

Copy Vegeta can become Super Saiyan Blue so I guess he's the strongest Filler character yet if he wasn't already before.

Apparently Vegeta is noticeably stronger than he was in the tournament. So there's that.

[supercat]

Omni King: ??

Omni King's Guards: ??

Vados/Whis: ??

Beerus/Champa: ??

Goku [Base]: 3,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 150,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 300,000,000,000,000
-- Kaio Ken x10: 3,000,000,000,000,000

Hit: 300,000,000,000,000

Vegeta [Base]: 3,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 150,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 300,000,000,000,000

Cabba [Base]: 2,500,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 125,000,000,000,000

Magetta: 4,000,000,000,000
-- Full Power: 100,000,000,000,000

Frost [First Form]: 1,500,000,000,000
-- Assault Form: 3,000,000,000,000
-- Final Form: 50,000,000,000,000
-- Tired: 30,000,000,000,000

Piccolo: 25,000,000,000,000

Botamo: 1,000,000,000,000

Gohan [Ultimate]: 600,000,000,000

Majin Boo: 20,000,000,000

Monaka: 5

I'm not really into pinpointing specific power levels post Android / Cell arc, as the long string of zeros can get annoying, but I like the gist of this. If Ultimate Gohan really is 600,000,000,000, Buuhan would likely be around 1,400,000,000 - 1,500,000,000; around First Form Frost caliber, as you have listed above. This is also more or less the same tier as First Form Frieza in my opinion.

As for the Base Saiyans and Assault Form Frost, I personally have them a lot closer to Piccolo; all of whom I place a notch or two higher than Final Form Frieza.

Base Saiyans: 23,000,000,000
Assault Form Frost: 24,000,000,000 - 25,000,000,000
Final Form Frieza: 21,000,000,000 - 22,000,000,000

I also find nothing wrong with putting Piccolo, along with the three above several tiers higher, as I have anyone Final Form Frieza-tier stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu arc).

[Hugo Boss]

New episode. Doesn't really tell us anything we didn't really know.

Copy Vegeta can become Super Saiyan Blue so I guess he's the strongest Filler character yet if he wasn't already before.

Apparently Vegeta is noticeably stronger than he was in the tournament. So there's that.

Did Goku say they are stronger than in the tournament?

[LowRyder2005]

New episode. Doesn't really tell us anything we didn't really know.

Copy Vegeta can become Super Saiyan Blue so I guess he's the strongest Filler character yet if he wasn't already before.

Apparently Vegeta is noticeably stronger than he was in the tournament. So there's that.

Did Goku say they are stronger than in the tournament?

Watching the episode right now, I confirm it. Seventh minute.

"Damn you, Vegeta... you're stronger than before."
"Did you think you were the only one who could get better?"

I guess one could take either as the last time Goku and Vegeta sparred (right before the tournament), basically, or the tourney itself.

[Hellspawn28]

I can't remember who Gryll even fought but from a story perspective seeing as how Frieza was supposed to be the strongest in the Universe and Beerus was shocked to hear that there was somebody out there that was actually stronger than him then I'd say Frieza would probably be much stronger.

Freeza did rule most Planets in the Galaxy, but not all of them. So maybe Gryll could be a low tier SSj level being.

[RandomGuy96]

On the subject of Gohan, does anyone else think he's a LOT weaker in BOG/the Beerus arc than he was in the Buu arc? We know that by the time of ROF, maybe a year later, he's weaker than he was at the beginning of the Buu arc, as he can't use SS2, has trouble with just SS, and is considered much less useful than Mr. Buu. Since Beerus arrives four years after Buu, it would seem very odd if he was equally as strong as he was when fighting Evil Buu despite such a severe amount of slacking, when just a few more months of slacking brought him so low.

IMO things could go like this:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu) > Ultimate Gohan (Champa) > Ultimate Gohan (Beerus) >>>> Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (25th Budokai) > Super Saiyan Gohan (25th Budokai) >= Super Saiyan Gohan (ROF)

Beerus-era Gohan wouldn't be far off from SS3 Goku at the time, so Vegeta being freaked out by Goku getting one-shotted would make sense, though still stronger as that seems to be what was implied by him getting his own mini cliffhanger and NEP and Vegeta implying he still knows of someone stronger than Goku despite being surprised by Beerus.

[supercat]

I think Ultimate Gohan (Champa arc) is a notch below his Buu arc counterpart, but could very well be just as strong. I'm guessing he presumably gained the ability to tap into his Ultimate state a few months into training. This would help justify Piccolo's unspecified but likely mind-boggling power up, as it would be somewhat akin to how he improved so drastically in the Android arc (training with a stronger sparring partner).

Other than that, I still adhere to:

SSJ Gohan (RoF) >> SSJ Gotenks >>> Mr. Buu

But hey, to each their own; I'm not about to start another endless debate pertaining to said topic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

On the subject of Gohan, does anyone else think he's a LOT weaker in BOG/the Beerus arc than he was in the Buu arc? We know that by the time of ROF, maybe a year later, he's weaker than he was at the beginning of the Buu arc, as he can't use SS2, has trouble with just SS, and is considered much less useful than Mr. Buu. Since Beerus arrives four years after Buu, it would seem very odd if he was equally as strong as he was when fighting Evil Buu despite such a severe amount of slacking, when just a few more months of slacking brought him so low.

IMO things could go like this:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu) > Ultimate Gohan (Champa) > Ultimate Gohan (Beerus) >>>> Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (25th Budokai) > Super Saiyan Gohan (25th Budokai) >= Super Saiyan Gohan (ROF)

Beerus-era Gohan wouldn't be far off from SS3 Goku at the time, so Vegeta being freaked out by Goku getting one-shotted would make sense, though still stronger as that seems to be what was implied by him getting his own mini cliffhanger and NEP and Vegeta implying he still knows of someone stronger than Goku despite being surprised by Beerus.

FnF Gohan isn't weaker than Boo arc Gohan. Piccolo was much, much stronger than Boo arc base Gohan, while FnF base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo.

[Bullza]

That's technically true even for the movie but how does that happen if he's supposed to have stopped training?

Base Goku was stronger than Base Gohan in the Buu arc. Since then Goku has continued to train while Gohan hasn't and yet Goku is weaker than Frieza and Gohan is stronger than Piccolo...

The only way it makes any sense is if some of that Mystic power is still part of him.

[HeroR]

That's technically true even for the movie but how does that happen if he's supposed to have stopped training?

Base Goku was stronger than Base Gohan in the Buu arc. Since then Goku has continued to train while Gohan hasn't and yet Goku is weaker than Frieza and Gohan is stronger than Piccolo...

The only way it makes any sense is if some of that Mystic power is still part of him.

Gohan's Ultimate form isn't a transformation. It is a state that is always on since it is all of Gohan's latent power awakened much like when the Elder Namek awakening some of Gohan's lateen power, which is why it is more effective than any form of Super Saiyan. What Gohan said when he was fighting Ginyu is that he can't tap into his full power anymore so he had to use Super Saiyan to do it. Which mean Super Saiyan Gohan is =< to Ultimate Gohan since it is Gohan reaching into his full power. So Gohan's base form would still be more powerful than Piccolo despite being out of shape since Gohan still has access to some of his full power, just not all of it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's technically true even for the movie but how does that happen if he's supposed to have stopped training?

Base Goku was stronger than Base Gohan in the Buu arc. Since then Goku has continued to train while Gohan hasn't and yet Goku is weaker than Frieza and Gohan is stronger than Piccolo...

The only way it makes any sense is if some of that Mystic power is still part of him.

Considering that he was many times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in his base form, I don't see how it's that surprising.

[ssbgoku]

On the subject of Gohan, does anyone else think he's a LOT weaker in BOG/the Beerus arc than he was in the Buu arc? We know that by the time of ROF, maybe a year later, he's weaker than he was at the beginning of the Buu arc, as he can't use SS2, has trouble with just SS, and is considered much less useful than Mr. Buu. Since Beerus arrives four years after Buu, it would seem very odd if he was equally as strong as he was when fighting Evil Buu despite such a severe amount of slacking, when just a few more months of slacking brought him so low.

IMO things could go like this:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu) > Ultimate Gohan (Champa) > Ultimate Gohan (Beerus) >>>> Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (25th Budokai) > Super Saiyan Gohan (25th Budokai) >= Super Saiyan Gohan (ROF)

Beerus-era Gohan wouldn't be far off from SS3 Goku at the time, so Vegeta being freaked out by Goku getting one-shotted would make sense, though still stronger as that seems to be what was implied by him getting his own mini cliffhanger and NEP and Vegeta implying he still knows of someone stronger than Goku despite being surprised by Beerus.

Of course it shouldn't be even argued. Ultimate Gohan is definietly supperior to any gohan we have seen until now.

Ultimate gohan buu arc > bog Ultimate gohan/ssj3 goku bog > u6 gohan/kid ssj2 goku/vegeta buu arc > SS2 gohan 25th budokai >= SS gohan (rof) > SS gohan 25th budokai

Picoolo can be only so close to Mr. buu but still weaker, so it works well.