Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cabba]

Goku doesn't have two base forms. If Goku's base was infused with god powers like some keep suggesting, then most of the cast wouldn't be able to feel it. Goku fought Beerus both as a Super Saiyan and in his base form and did quite well while he got two-shot as a Super Saiyan 3. And everyone felt it, when before they couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Goku. The only form that has god energy is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. There is no god + base form since if such a thing existed it would have been used against Freeza's final form. However, in that battle, everyone felt Goku's power until he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and they specifically note that they couldn't feel Goku anymore.
Meaning, Goku's base is naturally very strong now, no god ki needed. He didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Trunks because Trunks can't sense god ki at his level. To Trunks, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan would only look like Super Saiyan with blue hair.

I see you are online so i hope you see my reply
I never said he had two base forms or that he has god ki in those forms (we just dont have enough info to come to such conclusions either way), with the info we go up until now what i think happened as you can see on my earlier post is that goku suppressed his "god realm" powers while fighting trunks so that he could gauge black powers the old way (SS,SS2,SS3) since he does not now if he is a Majin tier villain or a post Battle Of God villan aka God realm level

Thats what I'm calling it to refer to both the stronger base form and SSyellow post Battle Of Gods
Now back to the movie, remember when Goku lost the SSG(red) transformation? and was able to still keep up with Beerus in his base form, he then later got mad at Beerus destroying things and potentiated his stronger self post SSG ritual by going SSyellow. You can hear piccolo saying he is back to being a regular Super Saiyan, which implies they can feel his ki?

Anyhow this state goku is in, is then brought to attention by beerus, he tells him that he lost the SSG transformation while not loosing "too much" power, that he absorbed that realm into himself he then calls him a prodigy. I dont think Goku has God ki in this state, it was never properly explained whether its hybrid state or whether he just jumped to higher realm of power (the god realm as i call it). Anyways the point is: in this state Goku is in he much more powerful than before both in his regular self and SSyellow form since he was able to keep up with Beerus in this state while his regular OLD SS3 form got pummeled with two light strokes.

This is later referenced again when Whis comes to visit and tells Vegeta that he can surpass anyone even Goku if he learns to control his Ki properly he later trains vegeta alone to reach this post SSG(red) ritual state Goku has. Whis waited for Vegeta to catch up before he brought Goku along for training (this is said in one of the whis/beerus alone chats)

The problem here is that we did not have that many encounters yet in DBS to test or better said put it to rest. We seen in shown in the Goku base vs Frieza fight, but some are even downplaying that as no longer relevant or not cannon. I guess well see next sunday if Goku Vs Black fight can shed more light in the matter since we can see Goku fighting as SS in the NEP thingy with black who is confirmed by trunks to be at least stronger than SS3

[Chiki]

with the info we go up until now what i think happened as you can see on my earlier post is that goku suppressed his "god realm" powers while fighting trunks so that he could gauge black powers the old way (SS,SS2,SS3) since he does not now if he is a Majin tier villain or a post Battle Of God villan aka God realm level

Thats what I'm calling it to refer to both the stronger base form and SSyellow post Battle Of Gods

That's the two base theory though.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I always assumed when he absorbed the Ki in his battle with Beerus it strengthened his normal Ki limits as well as giving him access to God Ki. In other words I'm saying his normal form doesn't have any God Ki...it's limits were just strengthened to a level that exceeded any previous forms before absorption while also giving Goku the ability to use/unlock/strengthen his God Ki.

[GodKaio-Ken]

with the info we go up until now what i think happened as you can see on my earlier post is that goku suppressed his "god realm" powers while fighting trunks so that he could gauge black powers the old way (SS,SS2,SS3) since he does not now if he is a Majin tier villain or a post Battle Of God villan aka God realm level

Thats what I'm calling it to refer to both the stronger base form and SSyellow post Battle Of Gods

That's the two base theory though.

No it isn't. He can correct me if I'm wrong but what he is saying is his normal forms don't have God Ki. By suppressed I believe he just means that he "suppressed" his SSB form by not using it.

He means Goku used his normal transformations because Trunks can't feel God Ki and wouldn't be able to tell how he compared to Black. Since Trunks said he was a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku is probably thinking "No big deal...I'll just go SSB". Where as if he had just beat Trunks down as SSB he would have no measuring stick.

[Cabba]

I don't know if you are disagreeing or just corroborating my point. Okay, the story's demands is what suggested those hybrids have higher potentials when needed. Goten and Trunks are even more special cases because they didn't have a tail, thus allowing them to develop more quickly. The rest you see, when they stop training Goku and Vegeta surpass them, but they could easily catch up if they put their mind into it.

I'm disagreeing, the whole hybrid theory is not referenced anymore. It was a plot element for making Gohan the hero. Tails disappearance could be just plot, the decided to omit them and forget about it
If you read all of the post you quoted then you will see the two main takeaways
1. A Saiyan/hybrid is only as strong as what is demanded of him and the strength of their foes
2. In the same frame of time both pure saiyans and hybrids grow/develop at an exponential rate depending other demands as explained on said post

The confusion comes from different timelines (mostly pre z) where the enemies were weak and the demands low, during Z goku grew at the same exponential speed as gohan because there were greater demands at the time. Goten and Trunks were born in a timeline with with stronger foes and greater demands and hence they had greater powers than anyone else at their age. You have the same Hybrid (Trunks and Future trunks) with different power levels as a kid, why? Greater foes/demand and plot

I do believe the hybrids have potential for achieving the powers Goku and Vegeta have with proper training but to say or imply they will grow at a faster rate is just unsubstantiated unless the plot demands for one of them to edge the other

Oh and I forgot to add. Cabba (in the manga and probably in the anime) himself is at the level of the Base Saiyans before the RoF arc, making him weaker than Namek Final Form Frieza (since Beerus said Base Goku was weaker in BoG). Which makes a lot more sense, and is still very impressive, and explains why Vegeta said he shouldn't be coming to the tournament with that power level.

Why did Vegeta say i equaled him in base form power then?
Just asking
[spoiler]Also I'm curious in what episode was it that vegeta said bolded[/spoiler]

with the info we go up until now what i think happened as you can see on my earlier post is that goku suppressed his "god realm" powers while fighting trunks so that he could gauge black powers the old way (SS,SS2,SS3) since he does not now if he is a Majin tier villain or a post Battle Of God villan aka God realm level

Thats what I'm calling it to refer to both the stronger base form and SSyellow post Battle Of Gods

That's the two base theory though.

But does it need the label though?
After Battle Of God goku jumped to a higher echelon, a higher real of power on both his base and SS1 forms i call the God Realm, him suppressing this power at will does not make two forms, I dont think the show is ever gonna acknowledge two forms. i just so happens that from time to time Goku and Vegeta will surpress their god realm powers to gauge the enemy the old way or to not make the fight unfair

[Bullza]

Base Mirai Trunks and Piccolo are not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, it's silly and don't make an eff of a sense.

Well there's no sure way of knowing. Piccolo isn't necessarily stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and I don't think he is.

However if SSJ2 Goku and Trunks are roughly equal then Base Goku and Trunks should be roughly equal so Base Trunks should be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

This series doesn't follow that much logic. Characters just get as strong as they need to be.

The level of power that Super Saiyan God has is simply no longer special. It's just like how Super Saiyan was at first worlds above everything, then it was very quickly made to be nothing special because even Piccolo was compared to it.

[Cabba]

I always assumed when he absorbed the Ki in his battle with Beerus it strengthened his normal Ki limits as well as giving him access to God Ki. In other words I'm saying his normal form doesn't have any God Ki...it's limits were just strengthened to a level that exceeded any previous forms before absorption while also giving Goku the ability to use/unlock/strengthen his God Ki.

This could very well be it, a perfectly good explanation
At the end of the day all we know is that post ritual Gokus Base is on a different realm than before, he is on a different level all together. It could be just like you said, or gokus essence mixed with gods ki. We were never given a proper explanation
Same thing for Vegeta post whis training, he just taught him to handle his ki differently to push all known boundaries before , so vegeta was taught something goku learned on the spot while fighting could be said

No it isn't. He can correct me if I'm wrong but what he is saying is his normal forms don't have God Ki. By suppressed I believe he just means that he "suppressed" his SSB form by not using it.
He means Goku used his normal transformations because Trunks can't feel God Ki and wouldn't be able to tell how he compared to Black. Since Trunks said he was a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku is probably thinking "No big deal...I'll just go SSB". Where as if he had just beat Trunks down as SSB he would have no measuring stick.

Ok i think we are getting mixed signals here
For starters what do you think explains Gokus fight with trunks?

When i said suppressed i mean he suppressed his base form and SSyellow form. What we do know for sure is post Battle of Gods events Goku base power in on a totally different realm of power. This could be like the explanation you gave in your previous quoted post above or maybe there is hybrid thing, or maybe being a SSG(red) allowing him to experience this whole new universe of power and his body got used to in in a way that he assimilated without having God ki. There could be so many explanations for this since we dont have an official statement.

What we do know for sure that this SSG transformation (for goku) and whis training (for vegeta) triggered something in them that allowed to reach a different level of power while on their base and regular SS forms. I'm talking of a giant leap of power in which goku from being defeated in 2 light strokes as SS3. To being able to keep up with beerus as Base/SSyellow

[TheMikado]

So now, people not wanting to admit or acknowledge the two base theory have resorted to calling it the suppressed God Ki form? It seems like semantics to me and I don't understand the difference.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I always assumed when he absorbed the Ki in his battle with Beerus it strengthened his normal Ki limits as well as giving him access to God Ki. In other words I'm saying his normal form doesn't have any God Ki...it's limits were just strengthened to a level that exceeded any previous forms before absorption while also giving Goku the ability to use/unlock/strengthen his God Ki.

This could very well be it, a perfectly good explanation
At the end of the day all we know is that post ritual Gokus Base is on a different realm than before, he is on a different level all together. It could be just like you said, or gokus essence mixed with gods ki. We were never given a proper explanation
Same thing for Vegeta post whis training, he just taught him to handle his ki differently to push all known boundaries before , so vegeta was taught something goku learned on the spot while fighting could be said

No it isn't. He can correct me if I'm wrong but what he is saying is his normal forms don't have God Ki. By suppressed I believe he just means that he "suppressed" his SSB form by not using it.
He means Goku used his normal transformations because Trunks can't feel God Ki and wouldn't be able to tell how he compared to Black. Since Trunks said he was a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku is probably thinking "No big deal...I'll just go SSB". Where as if he had just beat Trunks down as SSB he would have no measuring stick.

Ok i think we are getting mixed signals here
For starters what do you think explains Gokus fight with trunks?

When i said suppressed i mean he suppressed his base form and SSyellow form. What we do know for sure is post Battle of Gods events Goku base power in on a totally different realm of power. This could be like the explanation you gave in your previous quoted post above or maybe there is hybrid thing, or maybe being a SSG(red) allowing him to experience this whole new universe of power and his body got used to in in a way that he assimilated without having God ki. There could be so many explanations for this since we dont have an official statement.

What we do know for sure that this SSG transformation (for goku) and whis training (for vegeta) triggered something in them that allowed to reach a different level of power while on their base and regular SS forms. I'm talking of a giant leap of power in which goku from being defeated in 2 light strokes as SS3. To being able to keep up with beerus as Base/SSyellow

Okay our signals were slightly mixed which is why I added the part about you correcting me if I'm wrong and I slight was

My theory was always that Goku absorbed the God powers and it raised the ceiling on his normal Ki by enhancing his physical body. That is why the Kaio-Ken is so dangerous to the user I believe King Kai says so in fact...that Goku shouldnt go beyond x2 (or is it 3?) because his body can't handle it.

So what I think the absorption did was leave God Ki inside him yes...but in an inaccessible way without going SSB or SSG. However the intense level of Ki he absorbed and used throughout the fight prepared his base body to handle the immense base power up.

So basically what I'm saying is that his base is near God level possibly but likely not insanely close. Beerus even says in the movie that he absorbed "some" of the God Ki and not all of it if I'm not mistaken.

[supercat]

^ That Piccolo/ SSJ3 Gotenks level is just abysmal...

I mean having Piccolo, base Goku, and base Gohan as equal and above Ultimate Gohan makes zero sense not to mention being above SSJ3 Gotenks. I don't see how that's even possible after seeing RoF???

Actually after looking at this where does Frieza and the gang from ROF fit in? Did you watch ROF because their entire cast has been skipped.

It doesn't have to make sense; if the plot requires said characters to be at a certain level, it'll happen regardless of if it makes sense to you or not. Even from an in-universe standpoint, there's really nothing wrong with characters surpassing their predecessors and/or previously established benchmarks. Just because certain characters were once hyped and presented as top-tier, doesn't mean they'll always remain on top. Going by that logic, no one would have made it past Frieza.

Base Mirai Trunks and Piccolo are not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, it's silly and don't make an eff of a sense.

How is it silly? Historically, Piccolo has obtained some of the biggest increases in the series.

He gained far more from King Kai's training than Goku, despite the duration of his training being much shorter. How is this possible you may ask? Because the story necessitated it.

And relatively speaking, his power saw a far greater increase than Goku's did, despite undergoing the same training together for three years. Again, this was all due to the plot needing Piccolo to be at a certain level; in this case, it was to face off against Gero, an enemy that tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting.

I'm not sure what inspires people to hold characters like Buu, Vegetto, and Gotenks so highly at this point of the series.

Was King Piccolo considered a big deal upon Raditz's arrival? Was Raditz considered a big deal upon Vegeta's arrival? Was Vegeta considered a big deal upon Frieza's debut? Was Frieza considered a big deal upon Cell's debut? Was Cell considered a big deal upon Buu's debut? Even supporting villains were comparable to, if not stronger than the previous arc's main villain.

Nappa > Raditz
Gero and 19 > / = Frieza, but could very well be Frieza > Gero and 19. Regardless, the three were all likely close in power.
17 and 18 > Frieza
Dabura > / = Cell

[ahill1]

Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?

But that's already impossible based on base Vegeta being > SSJ3 Gotenks.

[Muffin Man]

^ That Piccolo/ SSJ3 Gotenks level is just abysmal...

I mean having Piccolo, base Goku, and base Gohan as equal and above Ultimate Gohan makes zero sense not to mention being above SSJ3 Gotenks. I don't see how that's even possible after seeing RoF???

Actually after looking at this where does Frieza and the gang from ROF fit in? Did you watch ROF because their entire cast has been skipped.

It doesn't have to make sense; if the plot requires said characters to be at a certain level, it'll happen regardless of if it makes sense to you or not. Even from an in-universe standpoint, there's really nothing wrong with characters surpassing their predecessors and/or previously established benchmarks. Just because certain characters were once hyped and presented as top-tier, doesn't mean they'll always remain on top. Going by that logic, no one would have made it past Frieza.

Base Mirai Trunks and Piccolo are not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, it's silly and don't make an eff of a sense.

How is it silly? Historically, Piccolo has obtained some of the biggest increases in the series.

He gained far more from King Kai's training than Goku, despite the duration of his training being much shorter. How is this possible you may ask? Because the story necessitated it.

And relatively speaking, his power saw a far greater increase than Goku's did, despite undergoing the same training together for three years. Again, this was all due to the plot needing Piccolo to be at a certain level; in this case, it was to face off against Gero, an enemy that tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting.

I'm not sure what inspires people to hold characters like Buu, Vegetto, and Gotenks so highly at this point of the series.

Was King Piccolo considered a big deal upon Raditz's arrival? Was Raditz considered a big deal upon Vegeta's arrival? Was Vegeta considered a big deal upon Frieza's debut? Was Frieza considered a big deal upon Cell's debut? Was Cell considered a big deal upon Buu's debut? Even supporting villains were comparable to, if not stronger than the previous arc's main villain.

Nappa > Raditz
Gero and 19 > / = Frieza, but could very well be Frieza > Gero and 19. Regardless, the three were all likely close in power.
17 and 18 > Frieza
Dabura > / = Cell

This is more like if base Goku in the Buu saga was suddenly able to tank hits from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan without budging. The power increases being presented here are like nothing we've seen before, especially when combined with the fact that they actively DOWNPLAYED the amount of increase that the base saiyans had undergone throughout the entire series beforehand (by having Beerus state that base Goku couldn't beat Frieza). You also have the fact that characters are undergoing less training yet making exponentially greater gains, even though training had diminishing returns throughout DBZ (unless new forms were achieved during training).

And while Piccolo did have larger gains from training than most, his gains were reduced to a crawl once he fused with Kami. The implication was always that Piccolo had reached his ultimate, complete state and that all his gains beforehand had been building up to that (and if that's not the case, why did he stop having gains for so long?). Now they're saying that pretty much anyone can surpass Buu saga's strongest fighters if they just train real hard? What's the point of all the new forms, fusions, and magical rituals? Why did AT spend so much effort coming up with all those creative reasons for characters to get stronger? The answer is that he knew it was more fun for characters to have reasons for getting stronger, that it made the gains feel more impactful.

Throughout the Cell and Buu saga you really feel like the heroes are desperately trying to make use of different ways to get stronger because training in and of itself just isn't enough anymore, and that adds gravity to the situation. Like, for instance, when they rely on the fusion dance. That's all they had at the time. If the boost from the dance wasn't enough, they're screwed. They couldn't just "train more" to suddenly become Mystic Gohan level. And Mystic Gohan couldn't just "train more" to become SSj2 Vegetto level. Major gains were limited to new forms and fusions, and you could train all you want but if you didn't unlock a new form while training then you were out of luck.

Now though? It just doesn't feel like gains mean anything anymore.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo must increased the amount of protein supplements, red meat, and eggs, and stopped doing cardio.

CARDIO KILLS GAINS THE GREEN MACHINE IS ALL ABOUT GAINS.

But yes, if the two base theory isn't true then it's an incomparable power jump to anything that came before. For example everyone likes to tout Piccolo's Android arc power-up. He went from 2nd form Freeza level to roughly 100% Freeza level, a x10 power-up, in the span of five years. He did this because his fusion unlocked more potential and he trained with someone way stronger than him. Also, his massive power up was commented on by everyone.

In every way it is more justified and sane than going from Cell Jr tier to Ultimate Gohan tier in a year at most.

[supercat]

^ That Piccolo/ SSJ3 Gotenks level is just abysmal...

I mean having Piccolo, base Goku, and base Gohan as equal and above Ultimate Gohan makes zero sense not to mention being above SSJ3 Gotenks. I don't see how that's even possible after seeing RoF???

Actually after looking at this where does Frieza and the gang from ROF fit in? Did you watch ROF because their entire cast has been skipped.

It doesn't have to make sense; if the plot requires said characters to be at a certain level, it'll happen regardless of if it makes sense to you or not. Even from an in-universe standpoint, there's really nothing wrong with characters surpassing their predecessors and/or previously established benchmarks. Just because certain characters were once hyped and presented as top-tier, doesn't mean they'll always remain on top. Going by that logic, no one would have made it past Frieza.

Base Mirai Trunks and Piccolo are not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, it's silly and don't make an eff of a sense.

How is it silly? Historically, Piccolo has obtained some of the biggest increases in the series.

He gained far more from King Kai's training than Goku, despite the duration of his training being much shorter. How is this possible you may ask? Because the story necessitated it.

And relatively speaking, his power saw a far greater increase than Goku's did, despite undergoing the same training together for three years. Again, this was all due to the plot needing Piccolo to be at a certain level; in this case, it was to face off against Gero, an enemy that tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting.

I'm not sure what inspires people to hold characters like Buu, Vegetto, and Gotenks so highly at this point of the series.

Was King Piccolo considered a big deal upon Raditz's arrival? Was Raditz considered a big deal upon Vegeta's arrival? Was Vegeta considered a big deal upon Frieza's debut? Was Frieza considered a big deal upon Cell's debut? Was Cell considered a big deal upon Buu's debut? Even supporting villains were comparable to, if not stronger than the previous arc's main villain.

Nappa > Raditz
Gero and 19 > / = Frieza, but could very well be Frieza > Gero and 19. Regardless, the three were all likely close in power.
17 and 18 > Frieza
Dabura > / = Cell

This is more like if base Goku in the Buu saga was suddenly able to tank hits from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan without budging. The power increases being presented here are like nothing we've seen before, especially when combined with the fact that they actively DOWNPLAYED the amount of increase that the base saiyans had undergone throughout the entire series beforehand (by having Beerus state that base Goku couldn't beat Frieza). You also have the fact that characters are undergoing less training yet making exponentially greater gains, even though training had diminishing returns throughout DBZ (unless new forms were achieved during training).

And while Piccolo did have larger gains from training than most, his gains were reduced to a crawl once he fused with Kami. The implication was always that Piccolo had reached his ultimate, complete state and that all his gains beforehand had been building up to that (and if that's not the case, why did he stop having gains for so long?). Now they're saying that pretty much anyone can surpass Buu saga's strongest fighters if they just train real hard? What's the point of all the new forms, fusions, and magical rituals? Why did AT spend so much effort coming up with all those creative reasons for characters to get stronger? The answer is that he knew it was more fun for characters to have reasons for getting stronger, that it made the gains feel more impactful.

Throughout the Cell and Buu saga you really feel like the heroes are desperately trying to make use of different ways to get stronger because training in and of itself just isn't enough anymore, and that adds gravity to the situation. Like, for instance, when they rely on the fusion dance. That's all they had at the time. If the boost from the dance wasn't enough, they're screwed. They couldn't just "train more" to suddenly become Mystic Gohan level. And Mystic Gohan couldn't just "train more" to become SSj2 Vegetto level. Major gains were limited to new forms and fusions, and you could train all you want but if you didn't unlock a new form while training then you were out of luck.

Now though? It just doesn't feel like gains mean anything anymore.

Too lazy to quote each segment, so I shall rebut paragraph by paragraph.

Paragraph 1:

That whole "they need other means of growing stronger" speculation you seem so fond of is exactly what made their base forms as strong as they are. It's funny because people seem to ignore or disregard the fact that Goku absorbed SSG ki, even though it was pretty clear. The only time training wasn't shown to have a great impact was during the Cell arc, when Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks saw rather modest improvements in comparison to the monumental jumps they've made in the past; so I'm not sure why you would label something as having diminishing return after one or two incidents. Additionally, Piccolo didn't train nearly as hard as he did prior to fusing with Kami; you can't really compare his light intensity maintenance programs to the intense training he subjected himself to during the days he prioritized setting new benchmarks.

Paragraph 2:

You know what else was reduced when Piccolo fused with Kami? His relevance to the plot. Meaning, he no longer had any voids to fill in major battles, and thus had no need to grow substantially stronger. If you really want to keep it in-universe, he presumably took a step back and let the powerhouses (Goku and Gohan) take the lead against Cell. As for the Buu arc, what opportunity did he have to train? Either Gotenks was too busy flying around the world and fooling around, or Super Buu was breathing down his neck; therefore, I still stand behind what I said, there is nothing wrong with anyone surpassing Vegetto, Buuhan or any of his other overrated incarnations.

Paragraph 3:

No idea what you're talking about, but training was never really disregarded. It was still used in-conjunction with other power-boosting means. On top of that, Piccolo trained seriously with Gohan for 8 months; that's totally different than having to go behind an enemy's back and cram in as much training into several week's worth of time. And last I recall, Gohan had zero chance to even train in the first place How could he become as strong as Vegetto if the opportunity isn't even presented before him?

Progression occurring at an unfathomable rate has little to do how much said progression means in my opinion. This is Dragon Ball, existing characters grow stronger while even stronger ones emerge. Not sure why fans can't love and accept the show for what it is; all this incessant nitpicking really isn't necessary.

[WittyUsername]

The problem is that even by Dragon Ball standards, the idea of Piccolo making such a massive leap in power in the span of a few weeks or months or whatever, is just ridiculous. Exactly kind of training did Piccolo go become that much more powerful in a short amount of time? Furthermore, shouldn't Piccolo have already been more powerful than Majin Buu by the time the Buu saga rolled around? He had 7 years to train by that point, are we just supposed to assume that he was slacking off for those 7 years?

[supercat]

The problem is that even by Dragon Ball standards, the idea of Piccolo making such a massive leap in power in the span of a few weeks or months or whatever, is just ridiculous. Exactly kind of training did Piccolo go become that much more powerful in a short amount of time? Furthermore, shouldn't Piccolo have already been more powerful than Majin Buu by the time the Buu saga rolled around? He had 7 years to train by that point, are we just supposed to assume that he was slacking off for those 7 years?

Was there even a need for Piccolo to train during those 7 years?

No.

What inspired Piccolo to go above and beyond to reach new milestones during a time of peace?

Nothing really.

Did Piccolo even have a superior sparring partner to train with?

He could have, if Gohan wasn't busy studying or Vegeta wasn't so arrogant.

Bottom line is, it's been shown that training with someone stronger yields phenomenal results; Piccolo experienced this firsthand when he trained with Goku, and he probably underwent something similar with Gohan. If some Zarbon-tier nobody could become as strong as he did (and no, I will not go into how strong I feel Tagoma got, as I am not interested in another debate pertaining to his power), there should be no reason, Piccolo, someone who already has a track record of monumental increases, couldn't surpass the top contenders from the Buu arc.

[WittyUsername]

Why wouldn't Piccolo have trained during those 7 years? He enjoys fighting, doesn't he?

Regarding training with a partner, if we want to follow the idea that having a sparring partner can make that much of a difference in someone's power, why wasn't Piccolo already stronger than a Super Saiyan before fusing with Kami in the Cell Arc? He spent 3 years training with Goku and Gohan during that time, so that should have given him a far greater surge in power to the point where he should have already been able to mop the floor with 17 and 18, if we want to follow the logic that training with a weakened Gohan for a few months managed to cause his power to skyrocket to such a degree.

While we're at it, didn't Goku and Vegeta spend 3 years training with one another before the Universe 6 tournament? How did Piccolo manage to sort of catch up with that?

[HeroR]

The problem is that even by Dragon Ball standards, the idea of Piccolo making such a massive leap in power in the span of a few weeks or months or whatever, is just ridiculous. Exactly kind of training did Piccolo go become that much more powerful in a short amount of time? Furthermore, shouldn't Piccolo have already been more powerful than Majin Buu by the time the Buu saga rolled around? He had 7 years to train by that point, are we just supposed to assume that he was slacking off for those 7 years?

Was there even a need for Piccolo to train during those 7 years?

No.

What inspired Piccolo to go above and beyond to reach new milestones during a time of peace?

Nothing really.

Did Piccolo even have a superior sparring partner to train with?

He could have, if Gohan wasn't busy studying or Vegeta wasn't so arrogant.

Bottom line is, it's been shown that training with someone stronger yields phenomenal results; Piccolo experienced this firsthand when he trained with Goku, and he probably underwent something similar with Gohan. If some Zarbon-tier nobody could become as strong as he did (and no, I will not go into how strong I feel Tagoma got, as I am not interested in another debate pertaining to his power), there should be no reason, Piccolo, someone who already has a track record of monumental increases, couldn't surpass the top contenders from the Buu arc.

Piccolo did train for seven years. We know because Toriyama said that Piccolo always trains like Goku, Vegeta, and Tien. There is never a time Piccolo isn't training despite falling behind the Saiyans.

Also don't think Piccolo or Future Trunks are as strong as some people thing. If Piccolo got such a massive power jump, it would have been mention in some way. I mean, Goku mentioned Piccolo getting strong after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber despite it amounted to crap. Him being Majin Buu level would have gotten some comment even if it's a throw away line like, 'hey, you've gotten better'. Literally the only reason why Piccolo did well against Frost is because Frost got his ass beat by Super Saiyan Goku and could barely stand and he was treating Piccolo with kid gloves. And Trunks didn't even hurt Goku and Goku easily caught his fists. It wasn't even a fight. The only reason why Trunks appeared stronger than Gotenks is because Goku bothered to put his guard up while Copy-Vegeta just stood there and let Gotenks use all his best attacks on him without moving.

[Draconic]

Piccolo must increased the amount of protein supplements, red meat, and eggs, and stopped doing cardio.

CARDIO KILLS GAINS THE GREEN MACHINE IS ALL ABOUT GAINS.

But yes, if the two base theory isn't true then it's an incomparable power jump to anything that came before. For example everyone likes to tout Piccolo's Android arc power-up. He went from 2nd form Freeza level to roughly 100% Freeza level, a x10 power-up, in the span of five years. He did this because his fusion unlocked more potential and he trained with someone way stronger than him. Also, his massive power up was commented on by everyone.

In every way it is more justified and sane than going from Cell Jr tier to Ultimate Gohan tier in a year at most.

His fusion unlocking more potential is just your assumption. He was already making huge gains even before that. And of course his power up was going to be commented on, since now he was on the same level as the strongest guys in the universe, during the U6 tournament he is SSJ3 level at best, a level obsolete in dawn of the god forms.

Also, Cell Jr to Ultimate Gohan, depending on how you interpret it, is not that high of a jump. A SSJ2 would be around 2x more powerful than one, going by the fact that they are as strong as Vegeta and Trunks post-ROSAT, SSJ3 Goku would be 4x that, so 8x the strength of a Cell Jr, and Ultimate Gohan doesn't have to be any stronger than just 2x over SSJ3 Goku, so that brings us to a 16x increase. Pretty close to the Android arc 12x increase. The shorter time-frame is made up by the much much stronger opponent. I mean, is it bullshit? Yeah, it is. It is unheard of? Not in Dragon Ball, not for the character.

[WittyUsername]

Also don't think Piccolo or Future Trunks are as strong as some people thing. If Piccolo got such a massive power jump, it would have been mention in some way. I mean, Goku mentioned Piccolo getting strong after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber despite it amounted to crap. Him being Majin Buu level would have gotten some comment even if it's a throw away line like, 'hey, you've gotten better'. Literally the only reason why Piccolo did well against Frost is because Frost got his ass beat by Super Saiyan Goku and could barely stand and he was treating Piccolo with kid gloves. And Trunks didn't even hurt Goku and Goku easily caught his fists. It wasn't even a fight. The only reason why Trunks appeared stronger than Gotenks is because Goku bothered to put his guard up while Copy-Vegeta just stood there and let Gotenks use all his best attacks on him without moving.

Wasn't it suggested that Piccolo could have actually beaten Frost, if the former hadn't cheated? Considering that Goku had to go Super Saiyan in order to overpower him, that would suggest that Frost is more powerful than a trained Super Saiyan God. In other words, Piccolo shouldn't have been able to last 2 seconds against him, even if he was weakened. I don't care what kind of training Piccolo did with Gohan, if that allowed his power to increase to such a degree, Beerus should have been surpassed a long time ago.