Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:50 am

Lionel wrote:Skill overlaps performance in battle only so much. You need to have the speed, strength, and acuity to react and adjust which are all power based attributes. That's why we're not seeing Roshi fight Black despite his vast array of techniques and centuries worth of experience. Piccolo's performance against Frost spoke just as much about his power as it did his intelligence and skill. Again, how else do you explain Frost resorting to the poisoned needle if he could have broken Piccolo's grip using raw strength instead?
The way piccolo gripped frost, he would have not broken free out of it before piccolo fires Special Beam Canon. Piccolo was about to fire it, and if frost would've even tried to struggle a bit, piccolo would've finished him off with it.
Also, he gripped him in a way that frost would've trouble breaking free despite being significantly stronger than him, plus plot (see how nearly dead goku holds off raditz for enough time for piccolo to fully charge his SBC & fire it, despite raditz being so much faster & stronger)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:35 am

Lionel wrote:Skill overlaps performance in battle only so much. You need to have the speed, strength, and acuity to react and adjust which are all power based attributes. That's why we're not seeing Roshi fight Black despite his vast array of techniques and centuries worth of experience. Piccolo's performance against Frost spoke just as much about his power as it did his intelligence and skill. Again, how else do you explain Frost resorting to the poisoned needle if he could have broken Piccolo's grip using raw strength instead?
But Frost was heavily depleted by this point, he even said he no longer had the power to accidentally kill him. They barely even "fought", Frost just stood in the middle of the ring wasting more of his energy trying to hit Piccolo who was dodging in mid air and then used his multiple body attack. The only time the fight got in close Frost clearly had the upper hand.

Both Goku and Piccolo himself said he had no chance of winning and his only hope was in using an attack that broke through his limits. He only caught Frost because like he said he was distracted to which Piccolo then talks about how he's a strategist.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:18 am

Bullza wrote:
Lionel wrote:Skill overlaps performance in battle only so much. You need to have the speed, strength, and acuity to react and adjust which are all power based attributes. That's why we're not seeing Roshi fight Black despite his vast array of techniques and centuries worth of experience. Piccolo's performance against Frost spoke just as much about his power as it did his intelligence and skill. Again, how else do you explain Frost resorting to the poisoned needle if he could have broken Piccolo's grip using raw strength instead?
But Frost was heavily depleted by this point, he even said he no longer had the power to accidentally kill him. They barely even "fought", Frost just stood in the middle of the ring wasting more of his energy trying to hit Piccolo who was dodging in mid air and then used his multiple body attack. The only time the fight got in close Frost clearly had the upper hand.

Both Goku and Piccolo himself said he had no chance of winning and his only hope was in using an attack that broke through his limits. He only caught Frost because like he said he was distracted to which Piccolo then talks about how he's a strategist.
Depleted final form Frost is still vastly superior than first form frost. Although he clearly wasn't that depleted. Nowhere did it say that Piccolo was using an attack that broke through his limit. It was more likely an attack that used a lot of his power. That said, Frost still needed to use the poison needle against Piccolo's grab rather than just breaking through by himself.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:27 am

Was there a need to lie? I never said that.

You putting an emphasis on logic in the power levels is why you are so off track.
You've said it multiple times:
Again your applying logic to this.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&p=1119564
But that's following logic, the series does not work like that.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&p=1113373

Saying that I use logic in my arguments is no different than implying that one shouldn't use logic in debates like these. I've never had anyone challenge my arguments before by saying that I use logic. That is just peculiar. There's a reason why it is famously self-contradictory to not use logic in logical reasoning, because doubting logic also requires logic.

The power levels in the DBZ manga made perfect sense apart from a couple things:

1. The zenkai boosts in the Frieza saga.
2. Piccolo becoming near Super Saiyan level while training before the Android arc

1 is bad but that's the only case of a bullshit power increase in the entire manga (DBS already has multiple bullshit power levels), but they ended after the Frieza saga and were never seen again apart from SPC. For some reason a lot of people think 2 is true but I've never seen any reason to believe that Piccolo was anywhere near Super Saiyan level just because he scared Dr. Gero who was weak.

Further, I don't see how I'm the one who's off track given that I was 100% right about the two base theory being in the manga and Future Trunks not being anywhere above SSJ3 Gotenks. I've gotten most things right so far and the jury is still out on the rest that I did not get right (the two base theory getting a proper confirmation in the anime among other things).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:08 am

Having rewatched the fight, from the time Frost is ensnared to when Piccolo is about to fire they've been exchanging conversation for roughly a minute while the SBC continues charging, which by DBZ terms is a lot. Goku's encounter with the Merry-Go-Round Gum was much worse because it immobilised most of his arms and legs. It took all of two panels for him to break that. You mean to tell me that a character who was still strong enough to apparently warrant Vegeta transforming couldn't break through some appendage in that short of time as well?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:24 am

Depleted final form Frost is still vastly superior than first form frost. Although he clearly wasn't that depleted. Nowhere did it say that Piccolo was using an attack that broke through his limit. It was more likely an attack that used a lot of his power.
In the sub I saw it did say that Piccolo's only hope was in using an attack that broke through his limits. Whether that's in the main Dragon Team subs or not I don't know, it's just what I saw in that one video. I'll look at the proper subs later.
Saying that I use logic in my arguments is no different than implying that one shouldn't use logic in debates like these. I've never had anyone challenge my arguments before by saying that I use logic. That is just peculiar. There's a reason why it is famously self-contradictory to not use logic in logical reasoning, because doubting logic also requires logic.
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you're putting logic into something that does not follow such logic. Vegeta got X strong in Y years so Trunks can only have improved by Z amount does not follow in this series. As I said before Goku trained with Kami and Mr Popo for 3 years, he reached a power level of around 350ish. Tien, Yamcha, Krillin and I believe also Yajirobe and Chiaotzu trained with Kami and Mr Popo for under 1 year and yet their power levels vastly surpassed Goku's.

Tagoma went from Zarbon level to Perfect Cell or higher level just from being beaten around for a few months. Somehow that made him as strong or stronger than a perfect biological android who was made up of cells from the most powerful beings in the Universe. There is no logic to that but it happened that way because the plot called for Tagoma to be strong enough to be a threat to the other characters.

What the plot calls for has far more precedence than power levels following any kind of logic. That's why characters like Cabba and Magetta are (near) God level even though they just appear to be regular aliens.
Further, I don't see how I'm the one who's off track given that I was 100% right about the two base theory being in the manga and Future Trunks not being anywhere above SSJ3 Gotenks.
What in the manga proved those two things to be right? I haven't paid much attention to the manga lately.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:08 pm

So the only issue here is where does Trunks rank?

Since we can all agree on a general tier list. What we seem to not agree on is the difference in power between some characters and others.

I agree with Bullza, power level gains are as plot demands it. Like zenkai boosts. In the freeza saga, they were totally random.

So the u6 fighters can easily be super strong, just because would be pretty stupid if they were all finger flick material.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:59 pm

buutenks wrote:So the only issue here is where does Trunks rank?

Since we can all agree on a general tier list. What we seem to not agree on is the difference in power between some characters and others.
Well there isn't a huge amount to go on, what we do have is.

1. Trunks can hold his own to an extent against Black who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ Goku being God level.

2. Trunks can push SSJ2 Goku back while SSJ3 Gotenks could not make someone equal to Base Goku budge at all.

3. Trunks is instantly stomped by SSJ3 Goku. He also puts up a much worse fight against Black than what Goku does making him seem weaker than Goku.

4. Beerus says he's pretty good.

5. Goku says he's amazed how he's come so far on his own.

He's somewhere between SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ2 Goku based on that. If you want to be more specific Frost punched at SSJ Goku with what he said was his unrestrained power and Goku stopped his punch without his arm moving.

Meanwhile Trunks struck at SSJ3 Goku at full power his sword and Goku's arm was moving back and forth which could suggest that Trunks is stronger than Frost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:18 pm

Bullza wrote:
buutenks wrote:So the only issue here is where does Trunks rank?

Since we can all agree on a general tier list. What we seem to not agree on is the difference in power between some characters and others.
Well there isn't a huge amount to go on, what we do have is.

1. Trunks can hold his own to an extent against Black who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ Goku being God level.

2. Trunks can push SSJ2 Goku back while SSJ3 Gotenks could not make someone equal to Base Goku budge at all.

3. Trunks is instantly stomped by SSJ3 Goku. He also puts up a much worse fight against Black than what Goku does making him seem weaker than Goku.

4. Beerus says he's pretty good.

5. Goku says he's amazed how he's come so far on his own.

He's somewhere between SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ2 Goku based on that. If you want to be more specific Frost punched at SSJ Goku with what he said was his unrestrained power and Goku stopped his punch without his arm moving.

Meanwhile Trunks struck at SSJ3 Goku at full power his sword and Goku's arm was moving back and forth which could suggest that Trunks is stronger than Frost.
True, Beerus did say Trunks is pretty good.

Tho logically, Trunks should be super strong, since he was praised by Goku and was able to push back ssj2 Goku. But most wont want to believe Trunks got such a massive power boost,

Atleast tho, Trunks' power is commented on and praised. Unlike Piccolo who Goku and co completely ignored in u6 arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:28 pm

buutenks wrote:So the only issue here is where does Trunks rank?
There wasn't a responce when I mentioned the glance that Super Saiyan received from Hit. The next time he gave any acknowledgement to the other fighters was when Vegeta used SSJB. In regards to Piccolo -- as was said previously, it can be assumed that he made impressive, possibly even significant gains from a relative standpoint. They just don't matter while in relation to the current situation. I think Piccolo's status has devolved to the same point where the humans were at during the Android arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:45 pm

But most wont want to believe Trunks got such a massive power boost,
Well that's na issue the fanbase seems to have.

People didn't like Frieza having such a massive boost. People didn't like Shisami having what seemed like a massive boost. People didn't like Vegeta getting as strong as Goku without the ritual.

In time people come to just accept it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:30 pm

New episode, unfortunately the stream completely screwed up for me during the Vegeta vs Trunks fight but it seems as though SSJ2 Trunks was able to get a hit on SSJB Vegeta? Did he knock him down I didn't see?

I'll have to watch it when it's put on Youtube but it would be further evidence that he is indeed (far) above SSJ3 Gotenks if that were the case. It'd also further stomp the two base theory into the ground.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Beyond » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:35 pm

Bullza wrote:New episode, unfortunately the stream completely screwed up for me during the Vegeta vs Trunks fight but it seems as though SSJ2 Trunks was able to get a hit on SSJB Vegeta? Did he knock him down I didn't see?

I'll have to watch it when it's put on Youtube but it would be further evidence that he is indeed (far) above SSJ3 Gotenks if that were the case. It'd also further stomp the two base theory into the ground.
he didn't hit him at all. He hit base Vegeta off guard.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:43 pm

Yeah I just found the fight on YouTube. He doesn't hit him but he is able to keep track of his speed and withstand several attacks from him like the kick that sent him through the forest while remaining conscious whereas Super Saiyan Cabba was knocked unconscious by a small punch to the gut.

So Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba at the very least which fits with things that were said in a previous episode about Trunks and him being able to push SSJ2 Goku back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:11 pm

Have fun with this week guys :lol:.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:26 pm

Bullza wrote:Yeah I just found the fight on YouTube. He doesn't hit him but he is able to keep track of his speed and withstand several attacks from him like the kick that sent him through the forest while remaining conscious whereas Super Saiyan Cabba was knocked unconscious by a small punch to the gut.

So Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba at the very least which fits with things that were said in a previous episode about Trunks and him being able to push SSJ2 Goku back.
How you figure? Because he knocked Vegeta down when he was off-guard?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:27 pm

Trunks can't sense SSB Vegeta's ki. Obviously, Base Vegeta became strong enough to sense god ki through training, so if Trunks was that strong he would be able to sense god ki, just like other strong characters like Hit. Can we please put aside the stupid idea that Base Trunks is near Base Goku/Vegeta level now? Please?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:30 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:Have fun with this week guys :lol:.
Yeah I know.... first off I don't know if he was SSJ1 or 2... the does he go USSJ2?????
The he reverts down to SSJ1and isn't immediately slaughtered by SSB Vegeta??? Like it doesn't seem like SSB Vegeta could be more than a couple of time stronger then SSJ1 Trunks at best??? Especially watching the Goku/Trunks spar???

I don't even know anymore. What is going on??

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chiki » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:39 pm

TheMikado wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:Have fun with this week guys :lol:.
Yeah I know.... first off I don't know if he was SSJ1 or 2... the does he go USSJ2?????
The he reverts down to SSJ1and isn't immediately slaughtered by SSB Vegeta??? Like it doesn't seem like SSB Vegeta could be more than a couple of time stronger then SSJ1 Trunks at best??? Especially watching the Goku/Trunks spar???

I don't even know anymore. What is going on??
Vegeta was just playing with Trunks and showing off his power at the same time. He said so himself in the ep.

Vegeta himself said Trunks would win if he landed a single hit. Why the heck would he OHKO Trunks and ruin a game like that if he offered to play to begin with?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:18 pm

I barely know Japanese, just going by what I know and what I've seen. Trunks is just a "regular" SSJ2, there's no other conclusion. The flashback even appears to be him doubting of his father's power, cue the talk about surpassing SSJ and Trunks therefore going SSJ2 from the get go.
Vegeta while a SSJB was obviously holding back.

OK, enough with the boring stuff. How strong are these Babarians? :think:
This is material for months, maybe more. It will eclipse every other power debate of this franchise.

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