Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:48 am

SansrivaaL wrote:It looked one sided to me, Vegito was fcking Merged Zamasu up in more ways than one. Sure Zamasu landed some fair hits here and there, but Vegito took it like it was nothing, he was mocking Zamasu the whole time. Zamasu feels pain now because Goku's body is in him, Vegito noticed this and he was just about to deal the final blow till plot entered and fcked him up, Trunks needed the energy of almost everyone to cut Zamasu. Honestly people are just pissed atm to think about powerlevels now, when ya'll calm down you'll see it was clear who's stronger, what fcked me up was Goku tho, dude got pissed but didnt go SSJBKK against Black when he was mocked of his families murder., thats some sick shiz.

That fight wasn't that one-sided. If Merged Zamasu is a 9, Vegetto is at best a 10. Also, whether Vegetto would have finished Merged Zamasu with that last attack remainder to be seen, unlike all the other times the fusion broke and we knew the enemy was on the edge of defeat.

Sora Saiyan · Post by **Sora Saiyan** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:50 am

Bullza wrote:
We know Vegetto is above KK Goku, since after KK Gowasu said we'll need more power than before to take advantage. So I'd say merged Zamasu also has to be above Goku.
He could be stronger but one kick did a real number on him, it shattered his halo afterall. Zamasu did look as though he powered up even further after this though as he grew that gorilla arm, so perhaps at that point Kaioken wouldn't have been enough plus he can't keep it up for long anyway.

On another note as for Goku overpowering Zamasu's energy alone whereas it took Vegeta and Trunks to do the same, well I see now that he had to dish out enough power that it practically crippled his arms so I can understand it, I guess.

When caught off guard in the current era of DB you can very easily be taken out by somebody much, much weaker. As much as I hate it, Sorbet backs this up well. On the power side of things I'm just sticking by Gowasu saying we need something more powerful, and also the lack of reactions for KK go against Goku after all the hype Zamasu got.

Zamasu did seem to get stronger, as all that lightning hitting him came after he basically asks for more power from the "light of justice", and then he smiled. So there had to be something useful to that monstrous change.

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:51 am

worrior_v1 wrote:To be completely honest, I feel as if Beerus is still stronger then SSB Vegtio and merged Zamazu after this episode- purely based upon feats shown.

Man, we are in for some amazing episodes coming up.

If we're using feats, Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than Vegetto and Merged Zamasu.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:57 am

Noah wrote:I'll credit you guys with persistance for still trying to reason something about power levels after an episode like this

This episode was good poewr level wise.

Sora Saiyan · Post by **Sora Saiyan** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:09 am

HeroR wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:It looked one sided to me, Vegito was fcking Merged Zamasu up in more ways than one. Sure Zamasu landed some fair hits here and there, but Vegito took it like it was nothing, he was mocking Zamasu the whole time. Zamasu feels pain now because Goku's body is in him, Vegito noticed this and he was just about to deal the final blow till plot entered and fcked him up, Trunks needed the energy of almost everyone to cut Zamasu. Honestly people are just pissed atm to think about powerlevels now, when ya'll calm down you'll see it was clear who's stronger, what fcked me up was Goku tho, dude got pissed but didnt go SSJBKK against Black when he was mocked of his families murder., thats some sick shiz.
That fight wasn't that one-sided. If Merged Zamasu is a 9, Vegetto is at best a 10. Also, whether Vegetto would have finished Merged Zamasu with that last attack remainder to be seen, unlike all the other times the fusion broke and we knew the enemy was on the edge of defeat.

At the start it was definitely a lot closer, but post spirit sword it was all Vegetto. Zamasu couldn't hit him after that, he was totally schooled and hit with every attack Vegetto threw at him. Just before the defusion Vegetto thought he was gonna end it, so who knows what would've happened. Power wise I would definitely put it in Vegettos favour, but Vegetto could definitely be hurt by Zamasu.

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:40 am

On the subject of Merged Zamasu vs Beerus now that we've seen what Zamasu is capable of.....yeah I could see Beerus being stronger.

On the one hand Zamasu does one shot Base Goku and Vegeta with one punch whereas Beerus didn't do the same to Goku even though it was in his best interest and he was supposed to be really getting into it and he blasted Base Goku and Vegeta with supposedly an unrestrained attack and they were really hurt by it but not to the same extent as what Zamasu did. So that would possibly suggest that Zamasu was stronger.

That said I highly doubt he is. When the time comes for Beerus to get really serious and fight at 100% I figure he'll be stronger than Zamasu just for the sake of the story. I don't think Zamasu is dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. He certainly wasn't before further powering up and I can't see him being that strong after powering up especially if Trunks can hang in there with him.

Hopefully soon they give some kind of update on how Goku and Vegeta currently stack up to Beerus. I'm sure they're still weaker but are they starting to get close now or what?

ShinTenshin · Post by **ShinTenshin** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:55 am

What Goku done against Merged Zamasu is far more impressive than what Trunks done.
So for the anime, Goku SSB Kaioken > Hit 0,50 Tokitobashi > Goku Black with Scythe > Goku SSBLUE > Vegeta SSBLUE >= Super Trunks. Don't forget the Billion damages taken by Goku or Vegeta before the Senzu, Trunks hasn't show the same resistance and was even saved by his father !

Merged Zamasu is weakened against Trunks, lost all speed and hasn't his Shield + Susanoo, nothing is really impressive. And the Genkidama/Sword is strong because it's Goku and Vegeta's Energy.
We knew that Goku Black is still stronger that Goku, Vegeta or Trunks so Merged Zamasu seems not so strong. Maybe incomplete by the mortal body of Black.
Same for Vegetto, he will lost if he can't beat Beerus quickly !

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:32 am

Sora Saiyan wrote: At the start it was definitely a lot closer, but post spirit sword it was all Vegetto. Zamasu couldn't hit him after that, he was totally schooled and hit with every attack Vegetto threw at him. Just before the defusion Vegetto thought he was gonna end it, so who knows what would've happened. Power wise I would definitely put it in Vegettos favour, but Vegetto could definitely be hurt by Zamasu.

Can't say I agree, especially since Merged Zamasu was still taking Vegetto's attack, including a full energy blast to the face. Vegetto had a slight edge, schooling Merged Zamasu is pushing it.

Bullza wrote:On the subject of Merged Zamasu vs Beerus now that we've seen what Zamasu is capable of.....yeah I could see Beerus being stronger.

On the one hand Zamasu does one shot Base Goku and Vegeta with one punch whereas Beerus didn't do the same to Goku even though it was in his best interest and he was supposed to be really getting into it and he blasted Base Goku and Vegeta with supposedly an unrestrained attack and they were really hurt by it but not to the same extent as what Zamasu did. So that would possibly suggest that Zamasu was stronger.

That said I highly doubt he is. When the time comes for Beerus to get really serious and fight at 100% I figure he'll be stronger than Zamasu just for the sake of the story. I don't think Zamasu is dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. He certainly wasn't before further powering up and I can't see him being that strong after powering up especially if Trunks can hang in there with him.

Hopefully soon they give some kind of update on how Goku and Vegeta currently stack up to Beerus. I'm sure they're still weaker but are they starting to get close now or what?

Trunks was only able to hang with Merged Zamasu after Vegetto weakened him. Before, he needed Vegeta's help just to deflect one of Zamasu's energy blasts. And in the end, it really doesn't matter if Merged Zamasu was stronger than Beerus since he's well, bodiless, and Vegetto would lost to Beerus since all Beerus needs to do is wait five to ten minutes for the fusion to break.

ShinTenshin wrote:What Goku done against Merged Zamasu is far more impressive than what Trunks done.
So for the anime, Goku SSB Kaioken > Hit 0,50 Tokitobashi > Goku Black with Scythe > Goku SSBLUE > Vegeta SSBLUE >= Super Trunks. Don't forget the Billion damages taken by Goku or Vegeta before the Senzu, Trunks hasn't show the same resistance and was even saved by his father !

Merged Zamasu is weakened against Trunks, lost all speed and hasn't his Shield + Susanoo, nothing is really impressive. And the Genkidama/Sword is strong because it's Goku and Vegeta's Energy.
We knew that Goku Black is still stronger that Goku, Vegeta or Trunks so Merged Zamasu seems not so strong. Maybe incomplete by the mortal body of Black.
Same for Vegetto, he will lost if he can't beat Beerus quickly !

Goku Black is stronger than Hit since the Super producer called him the strongest character next to Beerus. Also, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than Hit. He got done in by Hit's Time-Skip.

Sora Saiyan · Post by **Sora Saiyan** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:12 am

HeroR wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: At the start it was definitely a lot closer, but post spirit sword it was all Vegetto. Zamasu couldn't hit him after that, he was totally schooled and hit with every attack Vegetto threw at him. Just before the defusion Vegetto thought he was gonna end it, so who knows what would've happened. Power wise I would definitely put it in Vegettos favour, but Vegetto could definitely be hurt by Zamasu.
Can't say I agree, especially since Merged Zamasu was still taking Vegetto's attack, including a full energy blast to the face. Vegetto had a slight edge, schooling Merged Zamasu is pushing it.

I'm sorry, but he was totally schooled! He was flurried and being taunted, also getting pissed, he then tried to hit Vegetto which he smoothly dodges to respond with a few heavy blows to knock Zamasu around, then followed into a final KHH, and once he emerges from that he gives him a solid blow to the face which changes Zamasus reaction. He then smiles and strikes back once they defuse. Zamasu could not do a single thing, even when he was getting pissed. Taking away the properties of the immortality that remained he would have been finished in no time, the spirit sword didn't even leave a temporary hole so he had some hax regeneration still, and Trunks sliced straight through him in the shape of an X which he regenerates from.

Like I said, the start of the fight is totally different, but at that point he couldn't do anything besides be a punching bag.

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:29 am

Arcs over so this is my ordering of how the characters stand as of the current episode. I put Zamasu (alone) in a lower tier. Some probably won't agree but I did so because Zamasu ideally should be weaker than Base Black upon his first appearence and Trunks said he was just a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku so I figure Zamasu would be around that level which wouldn't put him ridiculously above the present Zamasu which would make sense to me.

The Super Saiyan and Base Tier is based on how strong Goku, Vegeta and Trunks were at the start of the saga and before they got all much stronger though I don't think it affects the overall order.

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Super Trunks with the Spirit Sword
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito (could be several places higher)
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken

Super Saiyan Blue Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Super Trunks
Base Black
Golden Frieza
Hit (Without Timeskip)

Super Saiyan Tier

Zamasu
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost

Base Tier

Trunks
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Final Form Frieza
Assault Frost

DBZ Tier

Super Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
First Form Frost
First Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

GTFO Tier

Majin Buu
Gohan/Piccolo
Tagoma

DBZ Macky · Post by **DBZ Macky** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:51 am

How is Piccolo above Tagoma? He had a very poor showing against him and we didn't see any indication of him powering up substantially. Sure, you could say that Piccolo is stronger because of his Makankosappo though.

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:10 am

DBZ Macky wrote:How is Piccolo above Tagoma? He had a very poor showing against him and we didn't see any indication of him powering up substantially. Sure, you could say that Piccolo is stronger because of his Makankosappo though.

Because after he trained with Gohan he was now equal to Base Gohan and this would have been a stronger Base Gohan than what Tagoma was supposed to be on par with.

Piccolo = Base Gohan (after training) > Tagoma = Base Gohan (before training)

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:22 am

Sora Saiyan wrote: I'm sorry, but he was totally schooled! He was flurried and being taunted, also getting pissed, he then tried to hit Vegetto which he smoothly dodges to respond with a few heavy blows to knock Zamasu around, then followed into a final KHH, and once he emerges from that he gives him a solid blow to the face which changes Zamasus reaction. He then smiles and strikes back once they defuse. Zamasu could not do a single thing, even when he was getting pissed. Taking away the properties of the immortality that remained he would have been finished in no time, the spirit sword didn't even leave a temporary hole so he had some hax regeneration still, and Trunks sliced straight through him in the shape of an X which he regenerates from.

Like I said, the start of the fight is totally different, but at that point he couldn't do anything besides be a punching bag.

You can't discount Merged Zamasu's immorality. That is like saying that Cell and Buu would have been dead if they couldn't regenerate. Whether it's true or not, they can regenerate and it's up to the heroes to deal with it. And Vegetto was hitting Merged Zamasu, but he wasn't really dominating him. Merged Zamasu getting pissed doesn't mean much since he got mad at Vegeta and Trunks last episode and their attacks didn't even hurt him.

Bullza wrote:Arcs over so this is my ordering of how the characters stand as of the current episode. I put Zamasu (alone) in a lower tier. Some probably won't agree but I did so because Zamasu ideally should be weaker than Base Black upon his first appearence and Trunks said he was just a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku so I figure Zamasu would be around that level which wouldn't put him ridiculously above the present Zamasu which would make sense to me.

Future Zamasu pushed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Him only being as stronger as Super Saiyan 3 Goku makes no sense. He's the weakest fighter in the future before Trunks ascended, but come on now.

DBZ Macky · Post by **DBZ Macky** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:34 am

How strong are Black's "clones" anyways?
And where would you guys place Zeno's attendants, above Daishinkan?
What about Zarama? Super Shenron can apparently make any wish come true, which might include killing Zeno too.
So is Zarama stronger than Zeno?

Zamasu55 · Post by **Zamasu55** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:56 am

DBZ Macky wrote:How strong are Black's "clones" anyways?
And where would you guys place Zeno's attendants, above Daishinkan?
What about Zarama? Super Shenron can apparently make any wish come true, which might include killing Zeno too.
So is Zarama stronger than Zeno?

1. I'd say as strong as SsjR Black Goku (rage boost).
2. It's hard to say. But they're surely stronger than Beerus and Champa, maybe even Whis and Vados.
3. Don't think so.
4. No, Whis said no one is above Zeno. No one.

Zamasu55 · Post by **Zamasu55** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:58 am

Bullza wrote:Maybe Vegito and Zamasu or maybe just Zamasu aren't as strong as we initially thought.

Zamasu was overpowered by just Goku (somehow), definitely seemed like he could be weaker than Goku using the Kaioken so he wouldn't even be twice as strong as Goku which would make sense.

I think he did power up after that but I'm not certain. He must have grown stronger get when he bulked up, Vegito doesn't actually comment on his speed falling though so either he started fighting seriously or he did slow down.

So if he didn't power up too drastically and he was weakened by a good amount then I don't see a problem with a Spirit Sword with the combined power of Trunks, Vegeta, Goku and the Earth and it's people killing him.

In the last episode just the combined power of Trunks and Vegeta overpowered him afterall.

That's why I thought Merged Zamasu was no match for Beerus. And that's a fact now.

SsjB Vegito is a tough one. He's stronger than Merged Zamasu, that's for sure. But not that much. I don't know if he's stronger than Beerus, but surely he wouldn't be able to beat him as the fusion lasts five minutes.

Sora Saiyan · Post by **Sora Saiyan** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:04 am

HeroR wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: I'm sorry, but he was totally schooled! He was flurried and being taunted, also getting pissed, he then tried to hit Vegetto which he smoothly dodges to respond with a few heavy blows to knock Zamasu around, then followed into a final KHH, and once he emerges from that he gives him a solid blow to the face which changes Zamasus reaction. He then smiles and strikes back once they defuse. Zamasu could not do a single thing, even when he was getting pissed. Taking away the properties of the immortality that remained he would have been finished in no time, the spirit sword didn't even leave a temporary hole so he had some hax regeneration still, and Trunks sliced straight through him in the shape of an X which he regenerates from.

Like I said, the start of the fight is totally different, but at that point he couldn't do anything besides be a punching bag.
You can't discount Merged Zamasu's immorality. That is like saying that Cell and Buu would have been dead if they couldn't regenerate. Whether it's true or not, they can regenerate and it's up to the heroes to deal with it. And Vegetto was hitting Merged Zamasu, but he wasn't really dominating him. Merged Zamasu getting pissed doesn't mean much since he got mad at Vegeta and Trunks last episode and their attacks didn't even hurt him.

Well I'm not discounting that, I'm disagreeing with your scale. If Cell or Buu fought someone who was a 10, and they were a 9 they would've probably won just because they have that ability, especially in Buus case.
I don't know how you can think Vegetto wasn't dominating, Zamasu became nothing more than a fricking punching bag to him, he was totally helpless when it came to trying to return the favour at that point.

Merged Zamasus nigh immortality must've also gave him some degree of damage resistance because he's been sliced in 4 and had a hole put through him without much reaction, the guy was almost immune to pain, but even with that he looked hurt when Vegetto twatted him with that blue fist.
Anyway, forget that, judging by how much pain you believe he felt doesn't mean anything in the sense of who's stronger than the other since Merged Zamasu is nigh immortal, so that logic won't work with him, and using Vegeta and Trunks is a poor example, he seemed to be pissed at Vegetto because he couldn't respond to the beating he was recieving, nothing to do with pain. Using pain as an example would mean plain old F Zamasu would be stronger than Vegetto since he wouldn't be able to hurt him at all. Even though F Zamasu would be a total punching bag to Vegetto, because he can't feel pain would you believe Vegetto wasn't dominating? Really that fight would basically go the same way as Merged Zamasu and Vegettos fight post spirit sword.

buutenks · Post by **buutenks** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:33 am

Well, now we know officially that Trunks is god tier. Since he can sense god ki, while in ep 54 he couldnt. So clearly, he got allot stronger from episode 54. It wasnt simply done for the plot and then forgotten.

As for how characters compare:

Light Trunks
ssj blue Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
kk ssj blue Goku
ssj blue Goku(he did better than Trunks and Vegeta)
Black Rose/ssj blue Vegeta
Hit/kkx10 ssj blue Goku(u6 saga)
Super Trunks
Future Zamasu/ssj2 Trunks(rage boost+ Vegeta training)/Golden Freeza/u6 ssj blue

That is how i see it.

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:44 am

Future Zamasu pushed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Him only being as stronger as Super Saiyan 3 Goku makes no sense. He's the weakest fighter in the future before Trunks ascended, but come on now.

It makes sense if Super Saiyan Blue isn't hugely more powerful than Super Saiyan 3. We don't really have any idea the kind of difference between the two other than Goku being confident they he could beat Black who he was told was as strong as Super Saiyan 3.

Base Black was on par with that so for Zamasu to be stronger than that kinda defeats the whole purpose behind Zamasu stealing Goku's body to gain strenght.

SSJ2 Trunks would have killed him had it not been for his immortality. I know Zamasu was able to hang in there against Super Saiyan Blue but I'm trying to think if did any worthwhile damage to anyone.

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:51 am

Bullza wrote:
Future Zamasu pushed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Him only being as stronger as Super Saiyan 3 Goku makes no sense. He's the weakest fighter in the future before Trunks ascended, but come on now.
It makes sense if Super Saiyan Blue isn't hugely more powerful than Super Saiyan 3. We don't really have any idea the kind of difference between the two other than Goku being confident they he could beat Black who he was told was as strong as Super Saiyan 3.

Base Black was on par with that so for Zamasu to be stronger than that kinda defeats the whole purpose behind Zamasu stealing Goku's body to gain strenght.

SSJ2 Trunks would have killed him had it not been for his immortality. I know Zamasu was able to hang in there against Super Saiyan Blue but I'm trying to think if did any worthwhile damage to anyone.

That is a big assumption to make. And Black may have started weaker since he was learning Goku's body, but he knew that Goku's body overall could grow to be much stronger than his original body. Basically, take a hit now for big gains later. It also been stated several times that the reason why people kept getting shots on Future Zamasu is because the idiot kept dropping his guard, just like how Goku got pierced by some random laser.

Whether Future Zamasu did worthwhile damage isn't the issue. Even if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just a 2x increase of Super Saiyan 3, that is still a huge power jump since, according the guides, a 2x Super Saiyan Gohan beat the shit out of Cell. Even when Cell hit him at full power, it did crap and Gohan ran circles around him. So if Goku at max is a 10, Future Zamasu has to be at least an 8.5. Strong enough to keep up, but not strong enough to beat Goku outside of his immorality.

Kanzenshuu

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