Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The comment about how his power had fully merged combined with Goku saying he hasn't got weaker is a clear indication to people watching that he just was not weaker. The Narrator and Vegeta's comments that he was beyond the level of Gods is a clear indication that he was stronger than he was shown to be while he was a Super Saiyan God as the ending of that fight shows.

You're whole argument comes from just that one line that Beerus said to Goku only after he was struggling to breathe. Not before it during the several minutes where they were fighting in space and the Narrator says they were hitting each with each other with enough power to destroy the universe.

Any inadequacy that he might have had was completely gone anyway once Beerus said "this is the power of Super Saiyan God".

No, it just means that Goku has all the power and that SSJG and SSJ Goku were operating under the same type of power since he remarks that his power wasn't weaker.
No, Beerus' comment wasn't in reference to him struggling to breathe. It was in reference to his power, the power that was too weak to prevent that situation from happening.
"This is the power of Super Saiyan God", just refers to Goku in general. A closing remark since the fight was coming to an end. Goku didn't just become the Super Saiyan God before punching Beerus. He had the power the entire fight.

Which again is proven to not be true if the Narrator and Vegeta said he was beyond that level. If they're saying he's stronger then he's not weaker.

Except context is important. They aren't talking about power when they say "surpassed" here. That was only stated when Super Saiyan Blue was introduced. It's just a reference to making SSJG's power his own and becoming a Saiyan Beyond God.

But that wasn't the actual limit of Super Saiyan Gohan's power. It was just the best he could do whilst severely handicapped, it is not the best that his power is actually capable of producing. Vegito did use all of his Ki because they defused straight afterward. The Kamehemeha that Super Saiyan God Goku used was the best he was capable of prior to once again surpassing his limits.

Despite what Goku said he still had power left after that final Kamehameha with Beerus being surprised that he still wasn't at his limit yet.

If that's the best that Gohan could do, then that was his limit. No way around it. Whether his limit was dropping due to the poison is irrelevant. He was not implied to be out of ki afterwards.
Both Goku and Vegito were stated to have used all of their power. Once again, them running on fumes doesn't support your argument. Vegito used up all of his ki during the Final Kamehameha, yet still remained in Blue and used a ki punch.

No it doesn't mean that whatsoever, you're looking for things that aren't there. He absorbed the power, it's his power that is part of his Base state as the Resurrection F very obviously showed. Therefore there's no need for him to transform into it because he's already got that exact same power in him already. That's the only thing that that means.

His strength changes in the manga because he never absorbed it, they never showed him absorbing it, they never said he absorbed it. That is a straight fact that you are arguing against. If he were capable of transforming into it in the anime they would have definitely have brought it back just like every other form.

No, you're stretching the statement to fit your beliefs. The only known way to transform into a Super Saiyan God was the ritual, so that's what Toriyama is referring to. He transformed in the actual movie after absorbing the SSJG which was shown to increase his power, so once again your interpretation is wrong, you just don't want to admit it.
Why do you keep making all of these random claims? Do you work for Toei? Do you know what's going through the minds of the staff and producers? Didn't think so. There is no reason whatsoever that the anime solely would differ from the manga and the movies where SSJG is shown to be a separate form.

When Goku states that he mastered Super Saiyan God to gain Super Saiyan Blue in the anime, he is talking about the form itself, separate from his base. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
He combines the divinity of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Blue isn't just becoming a Super Saiyan while being a Saiyan Beyond God, otherwise BOG Goku would've went Super Saiyan Blue.

He didn't say he just "possessed" that power. He said he was a Saiyan with that power. Even though he has that same power he isn't actually a God until he obtains God Ki.

Nah, there's no difference. It's plenty obvious that you're reaching at this point.

Goku fought Beerus as a Super Saiyan God, the aura disappeared but the power stayed inside him anyway, he was shown to get even stronger as a Super Saiyan. The narrator and Vegeta say he surpassed it. He then trains and gets stronger and Beerus tells him he's grown much stronger and wanted to fight him. He was stronger at that point then any point when he fought Beerus before.

Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (BoG) > SSJ Goku (BoG) > SSJG Goku

Base Goku>SSJ Goku? Nah.

No, Goku was in general, stronger than before. Beerus wasn't specifically comparing Base Goku to his previous forms.

Which I already said was true because Base Goku was only as strong as he was because of Super Saiyan God's power in him. It was the source of all his strength.

That doesn't make any sense as I've already told you countless times. Base Goku during ROF is nothing compared to BOG SSJG Goku in power. It doesn't matter if his power comes from Super Saiyan God.

If only SSB Goku surpassed a Super Saiyan God in strength, then that means that BOG SSJG Goku>Any form of Goku except for SSB.

Current Base Goku fought on par with Ultimate Gohan, so the idea that he is equivalent to SSJG is utterly ridiculous.

[DBZ Macky]

We shall never get a conclusion to Base Goku's power. That much must be apparent by now.

However, I would like to know everyone's thoughts on this: Goku got 10x stronger (apparently) than what he was in the Universe 6 Arc.
Even if we go by the "2 Base Theory", Goku would still be at least 10x stronger than before. Did Gohan also get 10x as strong as before?

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (BoG) > SSJ Goku (BoG) > SSJG Goku

Base Goku was stronger than SSJ Goku during that same battle? Wha?

[Bullza]

Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (BoG) > SSJ Goku (BoG) > SSJG Goku

Base Goku was stronger than SSJ Goku during that same battle? Wha?

Yeah for the same reason SSJ Goku was stronger than SSJG Goku in the same battle. He had access to an even greater amount of Super Saiyan God power.

From when Goku started fighting Beerus and couldn't even see his punches until the end when he smacked a part that massive ball of energy he just got stronger and stronger due to him surpassing his limits over and over again.

Then he grew stronger still after all his training on Beerus' planet.

[emperior]

Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (BoG) > SSJ Goku (BoG) > SSJG Goku

Base Goku was stronger than SSJ Goku during that same battle? Wha?

Yeah for the same reason SSJ Goku was stronger than SSJG Goku in the same battle. He had access to an even greater amount of Super Saiyan God power.

From when Goku started fighting Beerus and couldn't even see his punches until the end when he smacked a part that massive ball of energy he just got stronger and stronger due to him surpassing his limits over and over again.

Then he grew stronger still after all his training on Beerus' planet.

I thought Goku got stronger because of his Saiyan cells, not because of his SSG power. Though him being a SSG might have helped making his battle boosts better.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

I just want Goku to re-go Super Saiyan Red in the anime already so that, even though Goku channeled it in his lesser forms for the duration of the battle, Goku simply retaining the form (to transform in/out of at will) can be the end-result of Goku "absorbing" its power as stated by Beerus.

The reason for this is that I want Goku and Vegeta to be comparable in their power structure. We're told in Super that Vegeta reached the level of Super Saiyan God on his own via training, which means his regular base is faaaaar higher than whatever would be proposed by any two-base theory, because the gradual and normal procedure of Vegeta's ascent makes it where the two-base theory isn't even reasonable. A ritual, either through the SSG one or Old Kai's potential unlock, can conceivably unlock a new form while leaving one's normal self the same. That doesn't happen when someone actually trains to get there and earns Goku's admiration in doing so. At that point there's no first base to go back to.

If Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Red as he does in the manga and there's a confirmed power-increase, it'll leave it debatable as to where Base Goku and Base Vegeta actually are, and even if they're close to God, it'll still mean their base forms still got to where they are via actual training and will make it far less weird when normal characters appear to be on their level.

[Bullza]

I thought Goku got stronger because of his Saiyan cells, not because of his SSG power. Though him being a SSG might have helped making his battle boosts better.

Nah he kept getting more and more out of his Super Saiyan God power the longer he kept fighting. They said he just kept passing his limits. Like when Beerus stabbed Goku and he fell to Earth and when he started to push back his Kamehameha but then Goku came back with even more power and said something along the lines of

"It looks like Super Saiyan God is taking me to even further heights"

He slowly had to unleash all its power over the fight as opposed to him getting the whole thing from the start.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I just want Goku to re-go Super Saiyan Red in the anime already so that, even though Goku channeled it in his lesser forms for the duration of the battle, Goku simply retaining the form (to transform in/out of at will) can be the end-result of Goku "absorbing" its power as stated by Beerus.

The reason for this is that I want Goku and Vegeta to be comparable in their power structure. We're told in Super that Vegeta reached the level of Super Saiyan God on his own via training, which means his regular base is faaaaar higher than whatever would be proposed by any two-base theory, because the gradual and normal procedure of Vegeta's ascent makes it where the two-base theory isn't even reasonable. A ritual, either through the SSG one or Old Kai's potential unlock, can conceivably unlock a new form while leaving one's normal self the same. That doesn't happen when someone actually trains to get there and earns Goku's admiration in doing so. At that point there's no first base to go back to.

If Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Red as he does in the manga and there's a confirmed power-increase, it'll leave it debatable as to where Base Goku and Base Vegeta actually are, and even if they're close to God, it'll still mean their base forms still got to where they are via actual training and will make it far less weird when normal characters appear to be on their level.

This definitely needs to happen, plus seeing Super Saiyan God would be very fun. It would be well-suited for the 8-Universe Tournament. Z Fighters and co. could ask why Goku has Super Saiyan God again, and Whis would mention that Goku absorbed the form, but never used it again because of having Super Saiyan Blue being a form stronger than it. This would help us, the audience, understand that Goku didn't have Super Saiyan 1-3 stronger than SSG, like we thought. They pulled Kaioken back randomly and explained it, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to have them pull this out of nowhere.

This would give us the final piece of evidence that we need to say: Maybe what supersaiyangodgogeta is saying is correct that Base and SS Goku were never that strong after losing SSG; maybe it was only around Ultimate Gohan Buu Saga range. This could allow us to finally have a scale.

I truly do find it odd that the anime would have Goku absorbing SSG differently than the movie and manga. In the movie Goku powers-up into SSG against the sun ball. In the manga Goku powers-up into SSG against Hit. It would be strange to have Goku not be able to transform into it at will in the anime.

[Bullza]

Just encase I'm being misunderstood, Super Saiyan Goku was only ever God level that one time when he fought Beerus when the power of God was said to be flowing through him.

Anything time after that, against Frost, Zamasu, Trunks, Black etc He was nowhere close to God level.

Final Form Frieza was God level because he was roughly as strong as Goku and he would tear any of the Universe 6 fighters (except Hit), Zamasu, and Base Black in half with the utmost ease.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Just encase I'm being misunderstood, Super Saiyan Goku was only ever God level that one time when he fought Beerus when the power of God was said to be flowing through him.

Anything time after that, against Frost, Zamasu, Trunks, Black etc He was nowhere close to God level.

Final Form Frieza was God level because he was roughly as strong as Goku and he would tear any of the Universe 6 fighters (except Hit), Zamasu, and Base Black in half with the utmost ease.

I think the two things that you're saying here can't coexist.

You say that SS Goku was at SSGod Goku level at one time in Ep. 14 -- no other time could SS Goku be at that power. Yet, then you say that Final Form Frieza was at God level because Base Goku was at God level in RoF. That would then mean that SS Goku RoF would be above SSGod Goku level, which is counter to what you just stated.

Also, I don't think you can state that Frieza would beat all those characters. The scale for DBSuper is so fucked up that unless a character fights another character we can only tell where they match up; this is even pushing it.



The last thing I would say is that SS Goku may not even be at the level of 100% SSGod Goku because he never came anywhere near destroying the universe. (See 15 minutes 25 seconds until 15 minutes 52 seconds, http://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball- ... god-723543) In Elder Kai's words, SS Goku and Beerus could just be squabbling.

[Bullza]

That would then mean that SS Goku RoF would be above SSGod Goku level, which is counter to what you just stated.

No...It's difficult to explain but it all comes back to the two bases.

From the end of the Beerus fight up until the Frieza fight, Base Goku was God level because he had the SSJG power running through him. He was this "Saiyan Beyond God" and he can't transform into a regular Super Saiyan. He turns Blue instead.

Any Super Saiyan Goku that would have shown up in RoF (and ever since) would only have been weaker than the Saiyan Beyond God Goku who fought Frieza.

Also, I don't think you can state that Frieza would beat all those characters.

You have to mix and match things from the manga to make sense of it. In the anime Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God when he fought Final Form Frieza.

The manga has made it very clear that characters like Base Black, Trunks, Zamasu, Magetta, Frost and Cabba are much weaker than Super Saiyan God.

SBG Goku (anime) = SSJG Goku (manga) ~ Final Form Frieza >>>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku and everyone below.

I'd bet any money that in the manga continuity Goku transformed into Super Saiyan God to fight Final Form Frieza.

The last thing I would say is that SS Goku may not even be at the level of 100% SSGod Goku because he never came anywhere near destroying the universe.

Actually if you look at the very end of that episode when Goku is just a Super Saiyan, the Narrator talking over them fighting says

"The two merely continue trade blows wielding power capable of destroying the universe!"

[ChiefWamsutta]

No...It's difficult to explain but it all comes back to the two bases.

From the end of the Beerus fight up until the Frieza fight, Base Goku was God level because he had the SSJG power running through him. He was this "Saiyan Beyond God" and he can't transform into a regular Super Saiyan. He turns Blue instead.

Any Super Saiyan Goku that would have shown up in RoF (and ever since) would only have been weaker than the Saiyan Beyond God Goku who fought Frieza.

Ahhh, you are going with the idea that Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << Saiyan Beyond God < SSBlue, where transforming into SS1 would be placed second-from-the-left in the power ranking.

You have to mix and match things from the manga to make sense of it. In the anime Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God when he fought Final Form Frieza.

The manga has made it very clear that characters like Base Black, Trunks, Zamasu, Magetta, Frost and Cabba are much weaker than Super Saiyan God.

SBG Goku (anime) = SSJG Goku (manga) ~ Final Form Frieza >>>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku and everyone below.

I'd bet any money that in the manga continuity Goku transformed into Super Saiyan God to fight Final Form Frieza.

I would agree that each of those characters (Base Black, Trunks, Magetta, Zamasu, Frost, and Cabba) are below SSGod Goku, yes, 100%. However, SBG Goku being the replacement for SSG Goku isn't entirely without flaws. The whole 81 episodes of the anime is canon, and there is not really a reason given why Goku stops using SBG after fighting Copy-Vegeta.

Actually if you look at the very end of that episode when Goku is just a Super Saiyan, the Narrator talking over them fighting says

"The two merely continue trade blows wielding power capable of destroying the universe!"

I definitely missed that, yes. With this specific instance at the very end of Ep. 13, however, I don't think we can rule out that it could be a dramatic cliffhanger line. I didn't really see any other instances of the universe being in danger, which we can use as a baseline for 100% SSG Goku's power.

[Bullza]

Ahhh, you are going with the idea that Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << Saiyan Beyond God < SSBlue, where transforming into SS1 would be placed second-from-the-left in the power ranking.

Yeah I've practically come around full circle. It's the only way any of this makes sense now.

It was very heavily implied that Base Goku was God level, especially when you take all the things from outside the show as well and Vegeta said he'd surpassed it and what not but then the last episode seemed to imply that he was only at that level when he turned Blue.

They've changed something. It doesn't flow with the story but it's the only way to make sense of it.

The whole 81 episodes of the anime is canon, and there is not really a reason given why Goku stops using SBG after fighting Copy-Vegeta.

Exactly and therein lies the fatal problem with the series. As far as the anime is concerned this isn't really a thing, there was nothing to say that Base Goku was any weaker by the Universe 6 saga, the filler only seemed to show otherwise.

But this is what's created all the confusion and people wondering if all these characters, Piccolo included, are God Tier and going by the manga no they're not.

You get a Base Goku whose far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks whose far stronger than Good Buu whose stronger than Piccolo but then Base Cabba is implied to be weaker but he's on par with Base Vegeta whose on par with Base Goku. Plus other problems like Piccolo being able to potentially defeat someone far above SSJ3 Gotenks.

We're over 12,000 posts into this thread, we've discussed things back to front and gone around in circles and we've ended up still not having a clue where things stand. It's safe to say that it really just does not fit.

It's only after accepting this do I now feel like I understand the power scale more than I ever have since I made the thread.

[ChiefWamsutta]

All I am really saying is ... the Battle of Gods fight was Goku truly going all out.


Beerus was at absolutely nowhere near 100% of his power, and lied about using it in order for Goku to keep pushing out more of his reserves.

Goku as a Super Saiyan God started off slow, then he picked up momentum and his power rose, he then hit his peak during the universe-rupturing waves.

SS Goku couldn't handle fighting Beerus for as long as SSG Goku could handle fighting Beerus. SS Goku faded back into Base Goku much faster than SSG Goku dropped to SS Goku. This was like his back-up power.

Then finally he uses one last Kamehameha with all the Super Saiyan power left.

Fighting the sun ball was Goku's absolute last amount of energy, because, in order to even destroy the sun ball, he had to channel the power from his SS form into the punch, resulting in going to Base.


The fact that Goku could keep up for long as a Super Saiyan implies he didn't have as much power as we probably think. He would've lasted much longer than he did. Hence, in my opinion, Base Goku (Ep. 14) < SS Goku (Ep. 14) << SSG Goku.

[ChiefWamsutta]

We're over 12,000 posts into this thread, we've discussed things back to front and gone around in circles and we've ended up still not having a clue where things stand. It's safe to say that it really just does not fit.

It's only after accepting this do I now feel like I understand the power scale more than I ever have since I made the thread.

Yeah, I hear you loud and clear. To me, at least, Toei seems to not be commenting on this scale because they don't see it as a problem. That, in my mind, translates to Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << SSG < SSB, as we have all thought. That's probably what they intend it to stay like.

If that is what Toei is presenting now, then that is what they want to be the scale. I'm just backtracking so as to fit this motive, which is why I am subscribing to SS Goku Ep. 14 is weaker than SSG Goku. I am doing it SOLELY for consistency in storytelling. Goku then grows his Base a little bit each arc.

[DBZ Macky]

Is Lavenda stronger than Basil? Everyone from the YouTube side thinks so. But I'm pretty sure nothing implies that, like at all.
On quite the contrary, it seems that after seeing Basil lose, Lavenda is only confident in winning if he can kill his opponent (which would imply that he'd have to use his poison, and wouldn't be able to win in a fair fight).

The best arguments I've heard include, but aren't limited to:

They always pick the weakest first
i know this sounds stupid but its true
"buu first" "gohan second" "goku last"
"basil first" "lavenda second" "bergamo last"
the 2 strongest of each universe in the zen exhibiton was last thats cuz the Weak first then strongest. that would probaly mean the same thing for buu and gohan

DBZ Macky u r mental first of all lavender is older than basil so he should be much stronger than basil and next vermoud is stronger than beerus u really need to edit this video before u post it

Needless to say, I don't see why someone would think Basil is weaker.

[Bullza]

No, it just means that Goku has all the power and that SSJG and SSJ Goku were operating under the same type of power since he remarks that his power wasn't weaker.

That's all assumption though. They never said he was fighting with some unknown fraction of Super Saiyan God's power. Nothing in the whole franchise has ever said that Post BoG Goku was only fighting with a portion of that power. All that was said is that the power fully merged with him, it was running through him and so he didn't get weaker.

The only thing that changed was that the God Ki aura was gone, his strength did not change at all and that's why Goku thought he was still fighting at that same 100% until he was told to look at himself.

Except context is important. They aren't talking about power when they say "surpassed" here. That was only stated when Super Saiyan Blue was introduced. It's just a reference to making SSJG's power his own and becoming a Saiyan Beyond God.

Because like I said Super Saiyan Blue is the only thing that truly surpassed Super Saiyan Gods power. All Base and Super Saiyan Goku did was surpass his power whilst he was a Super Saiyan God but his strength still all comes from it.

If that's the best that Gohan could do, then that was his limit.

No it isn't because if he wasn't poisoned and did the strongest Kamehameha he could it would have been much more powerful than the one he actually used. That would have been the limits of Super Saiyans power. Nobody said anything about his limits for these obvious reasons, that's just something you came up with by yourself. It is a terrible example.

Vegito used up all of his ki during the Final Kamehameha, yet still remained in Blue and used a ki punch.

Well no all that would mean is he used up all his Ki during the final Ki punch where he defused right afterward then.

No, you're stretching the statement to fit your beliefs. The only known way to transform into a Super Saiyan God was the ritual, so that's what Toriyama is referring to.

Yet Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God and did no such ritual so no it isn't what Toriyama is referring to. Vegeta trained with Whis to become as strong as Super Saiyan God. When Goku arrived on Beerus' planet he said Vegeta's Ki had a different quality to it, Goku was about as strong as Vegeta because he'd got that power inside him already.

Toriyama gave a simple explanation, he absorbed the power so he doesn't need to transform into it because as the Resurrection F manga showed he's already got that power anyway. You're looking for something in his comment that's not there.

There is no reason whatsoever that the anime solely would differ from the manga and the movies where SSJG is shown to be a separate form.

And yet they obviously have done by not having it be a separate form that's appeared since.

Base Goku>SSJ Goku? Nah.

No, Goku was in general, stronger than before. Beerus wasn't specifically comparing Base Goku to his previous forms.

Of course. SSJ Goku was as strong as he because of whatever God power he had inside him. Base Goku was stronger because he had a higher level of that God power inside him.

There is no "Goku was stronger in general". That after Beerus he only had access to a percentage of that power is completely false and never said in any interview or shown in the movies, manga's or the anime. Beerus was saying that Goku had grown much stronger and was going to fight him, all that means is that he was stronger than when he last fought him, no over complicated reason, just that reason.

Base Goku during ROF is nothing compared to BOG SSJG Goku in power. It doesn't matter if his power comes from Super Saiyan God. If only SSB Goku surpassed a Super Saiyan God in strength, then that means that BOG SSJG Goku>Any form of Goku except for SSB.

Which again is based on nothing and the opposite of what was said and shown. Beerus said he was stronger, Goku and Vegeta were powerful enough to survive being blasted by Beerus' unrestrained Ki, Gohan couldn't even see Goku fighting Frieza but had no problem seeing SSJG Goku fighting Beerus. Goku said he was a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God which just means he's as strong as Super Saiyan God not some other reason you need to go looking for to find some other meaning to his simple comment.

Super Saiyan Blue is the only thing that surpasses God because SSJ Goku vs Beerus, Base Goku vs Beerus and Base Goku vs Frieza are all only as strong as the Super Saiyan God power inside him.

Current Base Goku fought on par with Ultimate Gohan, so the idea that he is equivalent to SSJG is utterly ridiculous.

That's current Base Goku. Base Goku during the Universe 6, Future Trunks and Universe Survival saga's isn't even close to God level even as a Super Saiyan 3. The last episode only mentioned him being at the level of Gods after he turned Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

Is Lavenda stronger than Basil?

It seems none of the brothers are that different when it comes to power. From the start, it's implied there is no way to tell how strong they are, so it all comes down to their skill.

[LowRyder2005]

How was base Future Trunks able to defeat SS Trunks? The base adults are always depicted to be stronger than the kids even though the Daizenshuu claims that Goten is on par with Gohan. How do you make sense out of this mess?

I took it as TOEI writing the kids as more or less around Namek Freeza (or if you want, about equal to Namek Goku), whom in turn was either around or even below the base Saiyans at the time BOG took place. Whether because of them getting weaker or because of their level always being around that benchmark - post-ROSAT included - is another good question (nowadays I lean towards the latter).

I think it's worth mentioning that TOEI writers did make Freeza job to base Gohan in the past, even if in a non-canon movie. I myself prefer Base < Freeza myself for more than one reason, though.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

How was base Future Trunks able to defeat SS Trunks? The base adults are always depicted to be stronger than the kids even though the Daizenshuu claims that Goten is on par with Gohan. How do you make sense out of this mess?

I really don't think that Goten is on par with Gohan, considering how strong Gohan's base is as well as his fighting experience. Gohan's considerably stronger in his base (I'd say as strong as Majin Vegeta to Fat Buu) and Goten doesn't seem like he should be that strong if you think about the fact that Goten has no actual fighting experience unfused apart from sparring with Chi-Chi and small glimpses of training with Gohan following the 7 year gap with no training and he is still a bit stronger. The max I'd put Goten is Imperfect Cell and that's pushing it a bit, even after the RoSAT.