Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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AvatarReiko
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:49 am

Bullza wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).
He's around as strong as Base Gohan from the looks of it and Base Gohan is either around as strong as Piccolo whose weaker than Buu or he's at his Ultimate level from the Buu saga.

A preview mentioned it returning so it either did for that Zen Exhibition or it will for the Tournament of Power. So yeah Base Goku is either weaker than Buu or equal to Ultimate Gohan.
That doesn't make sense, though. In ROF, Base Goku was shown overpowering 4th form Frieza, who one shotted Gohan in only his 1st form

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:52 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).
Which base? :P

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:44 am

AvatarReiko wrote:That doesn't make sense, though. In ROF, Base Goku was shown overpowering 4th form Frieza, who one shotted Gohan in only his 1st form
Well by my theory, that was Saiyan Beyond God Goku and he was as strong as Super Saiyan God.

He was during that fight against Fourth Form Frieza considerably more powerful than any time since where he's used a regular Super Saiyan form which are above his ordinary Base form which he's about equal to Gohan in.

It's personal preference what you choose to go with. You can try and make sense of things in universe and I'd say after 600 pages of confusion that hasn't worked out so well.

Or you can believe that behind the scenes problems made it so it's impossible to be made sense of. Though there's little in the way of facts and a lot of assumptions to be made there.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:19 am

AvatarReiko wrote:
Bullza wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).
He's around as strong as Base Gohan from the looks of it and Base Gohan is either around as strong as Piccolo whose weaker than Buu or he's at his Ultimate level from the Buu saga.

A preview mentioned it returning so it either did for that Zen Exhibition or it will for the Tournament of Power. So yeah Base Goku is either weaker than Buu or equal to Ultimate Gohan.
That doesn't make sense, though. In ROF, Base Goku was shown overpowering 4th form Frieza, who one shotted Gohan in only his 1st form
hahaha you have discovered the Super Conundrum. Without a real reference we have no idea if characters are in actual danger or not. The only time we have an idea is when a character goes their maximum and it still isn't enough.

Let's take base Gohan, how Does SSJ3 Gotenks fair against him? What about Base Goku? Where is Piccolo and Buu relative to the saiyan bases?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:41 am

AvatarReiko wrote: But SSJ Blue Goku was easily able overpower merged zamasu's blast. A feat both Trunks and Vegeta failed to do.
He had to sacrifice both of his arms to win the Beam Clash vs Merged Zamasu, Zamasu was damaged by both his own blast and Gokus kamehameha.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:01 pm

perucho1990 wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote: But SSJ Blue Goku was easily able overpower merged zamasu's blast. A feat both Trunks and Vegeta failed to do.
He had to sacrifice both of his arms to win the Beam Clash vs Merged Zamasu, Zamasu was damaged by both his own blast and Gokus kamehameha.
You do make an interesting point there. His ball does explode close to him.

Maybe Goku's Kamehameha didn't even damage him.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
You do make an interesting point there. His ball does explode close to him.

Maybe Goku's Kamehameha didn't even damage him.
I'm rewatching the Father/Son Garlic Gun and the Goku vs Zamasu beam clash.

With the former, we could tell Zamasu could summon the enough amount of Ki to stop the Garlick Gun combo, thus never damaging him. Now with the latter, Merged Zamasu first got hit by Gokus Kamehameha and then got hit by his own blast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llv17WX9-ZA

Notice the yellow energy ball(Zamasus) moves to where Zamasu is and explodes.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:44 pm

perucho1990 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
You do make an interesting point there. His ball does explode close to him.

Maybe Goku's Kamehameha didn't even damage him.
I'm rewatching the Father/Son Garlic Gun and the Goku vs Zamasu beam clash.

With the former, we could tell Zamasu could summon the enough amount of Ki to stop the Garlick Gun combo, thus never damaging him. Now with the latter, Merged Zamasu first got hit by Gokus Kamehameha and then got hit by his own blast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llv17WX9-ZA

Notice the yellow energy ball(Zamasus) moves to where Zamasu is and explodes.
Goku's Kamehameha was amplified to hell and back so there's no surprise Zamasu couldn't stop it. This lends me to believe Zamasu really is many times stronger than Goku but since he could still hurt him regardless he opted to use his Light of Justice to power up. He was also beginning to lose his mind by that point.

On a different note. If Goku after the god ritual in the BoG arc is a 10 where do you guys have him in the RoF and U6 arcs? I'm trying to determine his gains between arcs.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:55 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
On a different note. If Goku after the god ritual in the BoG arc is a 10 where do you guys have him in the RoF and U6 arcs? I'm trying to determine his gains between arcs.
SSJG Goku: 10

SSJB Goku (RoF): 20

SSJB Goku (Champa): 22 - 25
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:10 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Goku's Kamehameha was amplified to hell and back so there's no surprise Zamasu couldn't stop it. This lends me to believe Zamasu really is many times stronger than Goku but since he could still hurt him regardless he opted to use his Light of Justice to power up. He was also beginning to lose his mind by that point.

On a different note. If Goku after the god ritual in the BoG arc is a 10 where do you guys have him in the RoF and U6 arcs? I'm trying to determine his gains between arcs.
Kamehameha+his own attack and his halo being destroyed weakened him so much he asked the Light of Justice to power him up, if Zamasu didnt do it I bet the Saiyan Trio couldve destroyed his body.

I've seen people on YT and other forum claim that a full powered Final Flash couldve damaged Toppo unlike Gokus Kamehameha, idk what you guys think about it.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:13 pm

What is the "Light of Justice" anyway? I theorized It was Zamasu drawing power from reality itself since the energy was similar to the reality tear Black caused.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:28 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:What is the "Light of Justice" anyway? I theorized It was Zamasu drawing power from reality itself since the energy was similar to the reality tear Black caused.
That one moment was why I hated that episode. You're right. What the hell even is the "Light of Justice"? I could see it as Merged Zamasu taking power from Black's reality hole.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:34 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:What is the "Light of Justice" anyway? I theorized It was Zamasu drawing power from reality itself since the energy was similar to the reality tear Black caused.
That one moment was why I hated that episode. You're right. What the hell even is the "Light of Justice"? I could see it as Merged Zamasu taking power from Black's reality hole.
Maybe but he seems to pull is from multiple sources. Then again him having some connection to the fabric of reality would go a long way to explaining him being able to pull his "becoming the universe" revival after his physical body is destroyed.

But thats all theory based on what's in the show, never explained out right.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:51 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:What is the "Light of Justice" anyway? I theorized It was Zamasu drawing power from reality itself since the energy was similar to the reality tear Black caused.
Yeah something like that, Zamasu was using whatever was remaining of Black zenkai ability, the whole Light of Justice was the last zenkai Zamasu got, he basically lost his ability of getting zenkais after that, he was just immortal.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:26 pm

Helios518 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
On a different note. If Goku after the god ritual in the BoG arc is a 10 where do you guys have him in the RoF and U6 arcs? I'm trying to determine his gains between arcs.
SSJG Goku: 10

SSJB Goku (RoF): 20

SSJB Goku (Champa): 22 - 25
Any reason you have the gains from the RoSaT training so low?
perucho1990 wrote: Kamehameha+his own attack and his halo being destroyed weakened him so much he asked the Light of Justice to power him up, if Zamasu didnt do it I bet the Saiyan Trio couldve destroyed his body.

I've seen people on YT and other forum claim that a full powered Final Flash couldve damaged Toppo unlike Gokus Kamehameha, idk what you guys think about it.
Did we ever got confirmation he could get weaker?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:33 pm

He was asking for power and even mentioned that a weak God cant beat the ningen

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:59 am

Could it be possible that the Super Saiyan form Goku used against Beerus in Ep. 14 after losing SSG ... is the same Super Saiyan form imbeded with Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks' power?

Meaning is the Super Saiyan form after time runs out the same power as the Super Saiyan form + 4 Saiyans before Videl helped?

Could this explain why the Super Saiyan form was so powerful? Not all of the SSG power had left his body until he lost that Super Saiyan form?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:06 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:Could it be possible that the Super Saiyan form Goku used against Beerus in Ep. 14 after losing SSG ... is the same Super Saiyan form imbeded with Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks' power?
Nah it'd be way too weak for that.

That Super Saiyan wouldn't even measure up to Goku when he first became a Super Saiyan God. The Super Saiyan Goku that fought Beerus though was no weaker than a much more powerful version of Super Saiyan God and then arguably stronger still afterward because he had its power burning inside him.

Still I wonder, if he didn't become a God afterward would he have kept that power forever or would it only be temporary?

And why was this never done before? They could have done that at the Cell Games and killed Cell in an instant.

Funnily enough it was done in GT when they powered Goku up so he could beat Syn Shenron.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:15 am

The difference between Goku and the other Super Saiyan Gods is that, however you want to classify it, his ritual didn't run out when everyone (including Beerus) thought it would. At the end of BoG Goku is even shown tapping into the form itself one last time after it had run out, which means his ritual was fundamentally different from any previous one.

Toriyama said that we probably wouldn't see Super Saiyan God again in the same way we wouldn't see Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again, so I think there's a lot more leeway in what can be assumed now (vs. 2015) when you realize that he's even approving Super Saiyan God's significance in the manga. That's why I think Goku lost his temporary ritual strength upon absorbing that last blast and the "power" that Goku made his own would be the transformation itself. That's the permanent absorption which is absolutely important to the plot, and the anime/manga dissonance is entirely a result of Super Saiyan Blue having drawbacks in one and not the other.

I also think Vegeta achieving Super Saiyan God/Blue via training means that his and Goku's Base and Super Saiyan forms are pretty much anywhere on the spectrum they need to be as long as they don't exceed SSJG or SSJB. The two-base theory has no relevance in a world where Trunks and possibly the entire cast are approaching God level. There's no need for an explanation of why Base Goku's power level isn't still Buu-era when no one else's is.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:26 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
On a different note. If Goku after the god ritual in the BoG arc is a 10 where do you guys have him in the RoF and U6 arcs? I'm trying to determine his gains between arcs.
SSJG Goku: 10

SSJB Goku (RoF): 20

SSJB Goku (Champa): 22 - 25
Any reason you have the gains from the RoSaT training so low?
Because Vegeta's statement about him and Goku being near their limits prior to the RoSaT training in anticipation for the tournament (obviously FT arc contradicts this but it at least implies they didn't get significantly stronger from the training). Also I'm pretty conservative with PLs to prevent number creep (unless official material contradicts it) but if you want my highest number for Champa SSJB taking in account Vegeta's statement then it would be 1.5x RoF SSJB or a 30. If you want to ignore Vegeta's statement then 2x RoF SSJB or a 40 would suffice anything more is just unneeded.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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