Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Triggered Vegeta
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:55 am

Triggered Vegeta wrote:1. Goku asked Gohan to test Krillin's current power... so he'll likely not go all out. Gohan will probably lower his level, to the point where it looks like their even.

2. Gohan was never implied to be on Goku's ssj level, that was simply a spar... Goku wasn't even serious in that fight.. likely lowered his level to match Gohan. SSG Goku vs Beerus looked like Goku was giving Beerus a run, and even got blows in... we all know Beerus wasn't even trying., he could've completely stomped Goku like trash.. but he wanted to test Goku's new God powers.

3. Monaka vs Goku proves that OP characters such as Beerus can suppress themselves to Base Goku level and still have a fun fight... that was a spar as well... this is likely what Goku did in the spar with Gohan.... appears their even, but in reality that's not the case.

4. Even Future Trunnks who is miles above Krillin couldn't do anything against Vegeta(Blue) so what makes people think Krillin will???

5. If in case Krillin does keep up with Goku, which he won't.... I can already see all the GT fanboys waiting in their basement ready to lowball SSB to below GT Kid Goku(Base) level cuz Krillin could land blows.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:58 am

Goku will not fight Krillin in Blue... period.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:18 am

Bullza wrote:
HeroR wrote:It does matter because Buu wasn't serious when he fought Dabura and Gohan. He didn't even begin to show his full power until he fought Majin Vegeta.

Good Buu is easily stronger than Majin Vegeta since before he lost his power he was at least four times stronger than Majin Vegeta. Meaning that even if he lost 3/4 of his power, he was still be 1.5x stronger than Majin Vegeta. As I said, Basil is an extreme low ball because you're low balling Buu.
But that's a completely different Buu. Whether he was serious or not against Dabura and Gohan that was a complete Buu. What does he have to do with anything?

Good Buu has just a portion of that strength, you can't compare his performance to Basil against Majin Buu's performance against Dabura.

I'm not low balling Basil, you saw that Krillin put up a respectable enough fight against him. Krillin is weaker than Namek Frieza because Goku was. So Basil who didn't appear to be powered up maybe until the end because he had no fire aura can't be enormously powerful.

Unfortunately it was never too clear how strong the humans like Krillin and Tien stacked up power level wise except we know they're weaker than Base Goku but they could still be up in the tens of millions.
Krillin's attack did jack shit to him in the image fight the fucker was laughing his ass when the dust was cleared.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:23 am

Also wait for the episode to happened before tearing out your hairs and bitch non stop.
Besides goku said krillin started training again to gohan in the episode.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:28 am

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Triggered Vegeta wrote:1. Goku asked Gohan to test Krillin's current power... so he'll likely not go all out. Gohan will probably lower his level, to the point where it looks like their even.

2. Gohan was never implied to be on Goku's ssj level, that was simply a spar... Goku wasn't even serious in that fight.. likely lowered his level to match Gohan. SSG Goku vs Beerus looked like Goku was giving Beerus a run, and even got blows in... we all know Beerus wasn't even trying, he could've completely stomped Goku like trash.. but he wanted to test Goku's new God powers.

3. Monaka vs Goku proves that OP characters such as Beerus can suppress themselves to Base Goku level and still have a fun fight... that was a spar as well... this is likely what Goku did in the spar with Gohan.... appears their even, but in reality that's not the case.

4. Even Future Trunks who is miles above Krillin couldn't do anything against Vegeta(Blue) so what makes people think Krillin will???

5. If in case Krillin does keep up with Goku, which he won't.... I can already see all the GT fanboys waiting in their basement ready to lowball SSB to below GT Kid Goku(Base) level cuz Krillin could land blows.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by zamasu121 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:58 am

Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:08 am

zamasu121 wrote:Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.
so your gonna drop the show just because a krillin possibly attain a power up or develop a new move which can help him against stronger characters?
seriously this fanbase just doesn't know wtf it wants either
the humans get a powerup or at least a new techniques which helps them stand their ground or stay useless forever.
Last edited by pacz360 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by zamasu121 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:17 am

pacz360 wrote:
zamasu121 wrote:Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.
so your gonna drop the show just because a krillin possibly attain a power up or develop a new move which can him against stronger characters?[/size]
seriously this fanbase just doesn't know wtf it wants either
the humans get a powerup or at least a new techniques which helps them stand their ground or stay useless forever.
Krillin being on par with a stronger character like base Gohan i will tolerate, but Goku going ssb against Krillin..... :lolno: :lolno:

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:21 am

zamasu121 wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
zamasu121 wrote:Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.
so your gonna drop the show just because a krillin possibly attain a power up or develop a new move which can him against stronger characters?[/size]
seriously this fanbase just doesn't know wtf it wants either
the humans get a powerup or at least a new techniques which helps them stand their ground or stay useless forever.
Krillin being on par with a stronger character like base Gohan i will tolerate, but Goku going ssb against Krillin..... :lolno: :lolno:
We don't even have the full details of it. It's a preview dude

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:58 pm

Also this episode confirms that toppo and goku are equal.
Goku himself admits that he was unsure if he could beat toppo with blue.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:36 pm

I posted this in another thread and wanted to hear thoughts on this. I believe we need to stop focusing on the phrase "A Saiyan with the power of SSGod as a Super Saiyan." We need to stop seeing SSBlue as Super Saiyan 1 + God Ki.

***ORIGINALLY IN THE ROF MOVIE ERA*** SSBlue was treated as Super Saiyan 1 with God Ki; however, more recently it has been treated like a Super Saiyan 4 instead (BASE/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSB).

Think about it ... it is very odd that we have never seen Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 3. If Goku could easily channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 1 form, then why couldn't he do it with SS2 and SS3? Instead of using a life-risking attack like Kaioken x10, why didn't he channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 3 form? That is an 8x boost and much safer than almost dying fighting Hit. If Goku and Vegeta were in such a bind against Goku Black, why not just transform into Super Saiyan Blue 2? That would give them the edge when they needed it. Goku would have two more transformations in his bag of tricks to use, but Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 with god ki is never discussed. Additionally, this "Saiyan Beyond God" can't exist for the sole reason that Base + God Ki was never mentioned in the show.

If Goku can use: SS1 + God Ki, then why doesn't he use Base + God Ki, SS2 + God Ki, or SS3 + God Ki? And, no, there is no place where Goku uses Base + God Ki in the show, as no Z Fighter comments on something like that. I have checked DBSuper with reputable subtitles many times for a Base + God Ki. It just is not there, and, sadly, this forces us into a bind.

We can alleviate this issue by looking at Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue differently. We need to treat them as Super Saiyan 3.5 and Super Saiyan 4. We have the usual Base, SS1, SS2, and SS3. SSGod was a hurdle form used to access SSBlue, which is why I say it's SS3.5. SSBlue can be seen as the new DBGT SS4, in a sense, as that is what they use as their strongest transformation and not a hypothetical SSB2/SSB3.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Base Goku never did have God Ki he just had the power of Super Saiyan God is all.

After Goku went from a Super Saiyan God to a Super Saiyan even though his strength was said to be unchanged and Beerus said the power was still burning inside him he no longer had God Ki anymore because the others on Earth were able to sense him again.

I don't know if God Ki actually has anything to do with their power at all. They've never said anything to imply that from what I can recall.

Why theres no such thing as a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 Blue though is something I've wondered before. In the manga Super Saiyan Blue is supposed to be really draining on their stamina so I can understand why it wouldn't be used there but that's no excuse for the anime.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:15 pm

Bullza wrote:Base Goku never did have God Ki he just had the power of Super Saiyan God is all.

After Goku went from a Super Saiyan God to a Super Saiyan even though his strength was said to be unchanged and Beerus said the power was still burning inside him he no longer had God Ki anymore because the others on Earth were able to sense him again.

I don't know if God Ki actually has anything to do with their power at all. They've never said anything to imply that from what I can recall.

Why theres no such thing as a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 Blue though is something I've wondered before. In the manga Super Saiyan Blue is supposed to be really draining on their stamina so I can understand why it wouldn't be used there but that's no excuse for the anime.
Well the anime tells us Blue is a calm transformation so probably SSJ2 and SSJ3 are not compatible with that kind of power.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MagmonKai » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:22 pm

What's the point of God Ki if it doesn't grant the user super power? Toppo and the other power users didn't have this "god ki" but they had high battle power. So, basically a SSJ4 Goku could be just as strong as SSG Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:24 pm

Bullza wrote:Base Goku never did have God Ki he just had the power of Super Saiyan God is all.

After Goku went from a Super Saiyan God to a Super Saiyan even though his strength was said to be unchanged and Beerus said the power was still burning inside him he no longer had God Ki anymore because the others on Earth were able to sense him again.

I don't know if God Ki actually has anything to do with their power at all. They've never said anything to imply that from what I can recall.

Why theres no such thing as a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 Blue though is something I've wondered before. In the manga Super Saiyan Blue is supposed to be really draining on their stamina so I can understand why it wouldn't be used there but that's no excuse for the anime.
I really believe that anything about SSB and god ki from before Episode 28 of DBSuper has little-to-no bearing anymore. To me, it comes down to two options:

1) Goku goes SSG. He loses SSG and has Super Saiyan = SSG power. Then Base form = SSG power. During training with Whis, Base RoF > Base BoG, and blue god ki is unlocked. Then somehow Super Saiyan RoF > Super Saiyan BoG, but it has god ki somehow now. ... So SSG and Super Saiyan RoF have God Ki, but Base RoF, Base BoG, Super Saiyan BoG don't have god ki. Then in the U6 saga, Super Saiyan with no god ki comes back. Now Goku says that Super Saiyan with god ki is about ki control and calmness. Apparently he can stack Kaioken onto this Super Saiyan with god ki, but not the Super Saiyan without god ki. Against Monaka-Beerus we see a Goku whose Base seems to be at SSG power. In FT saga, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 come back, but nothing is ever mentioned about them being able to use god ki. In the manga, when Super Saiyan passes Super Saiyan God level it becomes Super Saiyan Blue, so why didn't Super Saiyan 2 become blue if Goku's Base is around SSG? Then in Universe Survival, the gods only say Goku is at god level when he goes blue. In the manga, somehow Vegeta can access SSG, even though in the anime he was said to not have used that form. For some reason they both can access it despite not using a ritual. Where is Piccolo's power even at? Why did Goku get the yellow forms back? Does he have a strong base and a weak base even though nothing is said about this at all? If he doesn't have two bases then the powerscaling is no more! How even does one GET SSBlue? How did Vegeta do it without SSG? Where even is Goku's Base at?

This is what to make of DBSuper based on all the info we have. No one can understand it. It is filled with more inconsistencies than anything. However, a second option alleviates this.

2) Despite other contradictory evidence, it is much easier to treat Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue as Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SS3.5/SS4. It's easier to say that once you get to this level, the forms take on god ki. SSGod was a hurdle form, and Vegeta jumped over it to reach blue. Goku's Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod < SSBlue even during the Frieza RoF, Copy-Vegeta, Goku Black, Hit, and Ep. 14 Beerus fights. Each new arc, Goku's forms slide further towards being equal to SSGod level, but are always below it in that order. This just makes things simple. That is why I am fine with saying that Ep. 14 SS Goku was weaker than SSG Goku. We never really know how strong someone is during a fight unless they go all out. This is just so much easier.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:17 pm

Like someone said earlier, the two-base theory is a failed pursuit when no one here can make sense of it, much less Toei. It's best to look at how things appear to work now and retroactively apply it to the past as much as possible, assuming you're invested in Super's future.

I don't think there's a normal base and a God-level base leading to different Super Saiyan chains, because it's only a matter of time (if it hasn't happened already) until what's perceived as God-level Base Goku goes Super Saiyan 1 and comes out stronger than where he was just at. Then what?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:26 pm

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Like someone said earlier, the two-base theory is a failed pursuit when no one here can make sense of it, much less Toei. It's best to look at how things appear to work now and retroactively apply it to the past as much as possible, assuming you're invested in Super's future.

I don't think there's a normal base and a God-level base leading to different Super Saiyan chains, because it's only a matter of time (if it hasn't happened already) until what's perceived as God-level Base Goku goes Super Saiyan 1 and comes out stronger than where he was just at. Then what?
Uhm... I don't think I'm really understanding the rationale of the second paragraph. What would the correlation between Goku's improvements and disproving the idea of two bases be, according to you?

On the theory itself, I believe everyone - or almost anyone - here deems it to be a strictly unintended side effect of Super retracing the movies at first and then trying to establish its own canon in conjuction with Toriyama's new inputs, starting from the U6 tourney and afterwards.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:00 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:The big issue, again, is that his Saiyan Beyond God form has no god ki, which is why we can argue it is just a regular Base form.
The thing is, god ki has nothing to do with how strong someone is. Goku is almost as strong as SSG in his base & SS forms, but he isn't a god in these forms, therefore he doesn't have god ki. The only forms that make him a god are Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan Blue.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Freeza9000 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:17 pm

zamasu121 wrote:Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.
There's really nothing in the NEP that implies that Goku had to go SSJB to beat Krillin and Krillin being able to fight Blue Goku. What even makes you think Krillin will give SSJB Goku a fight when Krillin couldn't stand Base Goku's fist? Just because Goku went SSJB? It's just like Vegeta's fight with Cabba where he revealed SSJB just for the sake of showing off the form when Vegeta could've beaten Cabba in his SSJ form alone.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:52 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Like someone said earlier, the two-base theory is a failed pursuit when no one here can make sense of it, much less Toei. It's best to look at how things appear to work now and retroactively apply it to the past as much as possible, assuming you're invested in Super's future.

I don't think there's a normal base and a God-level base leading to different Super Saiyan chains, because it's only a matter of time (if it hasn't happened already) until what's perceived as God-level Base Goku goes Super Saiyan 1 and comes out stronger than where he was just at. Then what?
Uhm... I don't think I'm really understanding the rationale of the second paragraph. What would the correlation between Goku's improvements and disproving the idea of two bases be, according to you?

On the theory itself, I believe everyone - or almost anyone - here deems it to be a strictly unintended side effect of Super retracing the movies at first and then trying to establish its own canon in conjuction with Toriyama's new inputs, starting from the U6 tourney and afterwards.
I agree with LowRyder2005 and Bulma's Foot Masseur. Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, and the Two-Base Theory are unintended side effects of DBSuper production. That's why we haven't seen Goku fighting Beerus in it again. 'Saiyan Beyond God' basically is gone. Claiming that Goku and Vegeta are just hiding it away and will use it later is ignoring the out-of-universe production choice.

DBSuper's powerscaling will never be fixed for the Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Universe 6 arcs. We have to accept this and hope the Future Trunks and Universe Survival arcs can be consistent without a One-Base vs. Two-Base debate. It's good that we never saw 'Saiyan Beyond God' in the Future Trunks arc.

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