Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[MagmonKai]

New episode.

Apparently there are mortals (that are going to be in the Tournament?) who are as strong as God's of Destruction. Goku isn't as strong as one so does that mean there will be more characters than Jiren who are above current SSJB Goku?

There's Gods of Destruction that are physically stronger than Beerus.

Caulifla is a Super Saiyan 2 now, already.

Kale is a Legendary Super Saiyan. Stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba but at the same time she hit him quite solidly and he stayed conscious unlike when SSJB Vegeta hit him lightly in the stomach and knocked him out so Kale doesn't seem to Blue level yet anyway.

Frieza said he was going to get stronger, no idea how considering he's already unlocked his potential and there's only 90 minutes to go before the tournament.

There was no fight between Goku and Frieza this week, that looks like it's next week so the possible headache is delayed for now but like Lord Beerus said above it was noted that both Goku and Vegeta could just beat Frieza, it's more notable that it was said about Vegeta because he doesn't have Kaioken.

Where did it say that? I just assumed Whis meant a Strong Mortals in "a" universe. Not specifically the 8 that are participating. I know you're going to say, but why would he even mention that if they weren't in the tournament. Simple. In the beginning of that statement he said I don't know much about all the universes but I do no this one guy is really strong blah blah...that's like saying "you never know how strong the contestants are going to be so I can't say you guys are going to win the tournament.--That's the way I interpreted that.

[Bullza]

Goku SSG could already make Beerus use a considerable amount of power, calling the Saiyajin even splendid. Not to mention that he countered very powerful attacks of beerus (hundreds of spheres with the power to destroy a planet). Goku has been MUCH stronger since this fight, including using the Kaioken.

Yeah so with the fight that Goku was able to put up back then and with all the big gains he's made since it'd be a bit contradictory with the story if Beerus was still supposed to be miles beyond where Goku is now.

I know they retconned it in the end but Beerus wasn't supposed to be that much stronger than Goku originally in the movie.

The Kaioken x10 scene sorta ruined that. In hindsight Goku should have just used Kaioken x2 against Hit. There was no need whatsoever for x10.

Trunks has been the strongest mortal in the show to date.

Where did it say that? I just assumed Whis meant a Strong Mortals in "a" universe. Not specifically the 8 that are participating.

Yeah this is true, I just took another look at Herms comment, I suppose Whis could just mean in general.

[MagmonKai]

If you watch the sub it's even more clearer what he's saying. Why on earth would you think Trunks is the strongest mortal?

[Bullza]

If you watch the sub it's even more clearer what he's saying. Why on earth would you think Trunks is the strongest mortal?

He killed Merged Zamasu. What other mortal to date could have done that?

I'd go as far as to say that at the time he absorbed the Spirit Bomb and received the power from Goku and Vegeta all stacked onto his own already significantly high level of power that he was probably God of Destruction level by then.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So ... does this Dragon Ball Super version of the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation power up the Saiyan to just under Super Saiyan 2 levels (assuming a constant Base power level)? Like, if Kale and Caulifla's Base power levels were equal do people think Caulifa's SS2 form is stronger than Kale's LSS form?

Also, it seems Goku and Vegeta are still stronger than Frieza based on the dialogue at the beginning of the episode. There is also a random mortal out there who is stronger than a God of Destruction ... hmmmmm.

[AvatarReiko]

Curious. Are the universe 6 base saiyans stronger than Cell Saga top tiers? How do they compare in their SSJ forms?

[larzooma]

So ... does this Dragon Ball Super version of the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation power up the Saiyan to just under Super Saiyan 2 levels (assuming a constant Base power level)? Like, if Kale and Caulifla's Base power levels were equal do people think Caulifa's SS2 form is stronger than Kale's LSS form?

Also, it seems Goku and Vegeta are still stronger than Frieza based on the dialogue at the beginning of the episode. There is also a random mortal out there who is stronger than a God of Destruction ... hmmmmm.

There's no question they're "still stronger". Unless the writers really take some liberties with Frieza, he hasn't gained any power since going back to Hell, while Goku and Vegeta have made considerable gains. They could both defeat him with relative ease at this point, and as I've argued before, so could Gohan and 17.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku SSG could already make Beerus use a considerable amount of power, calling the Saiyajin even splendid. Not to mention that he countered very powerful attacks of beerus (hundreds of spheres with the power to destroy a planet). Goku has been MUCH stronger since this fight, including using the Kaioken.

Yeah so with the fight that Goku was able to put up back then and with all the big gains he's made since it'd be a bit contradictory with the story if Beerus was still supposed to be miles beyond where Goku is now.

I know they retconned it in the end but Beerus wasn't supposed to be that much stronger than Goku originally in the movie.

The Kaioken x10 scene sorta ruined that. In hindsight Goku should have just used Kaioken x2 against Hit. There was no need whatsoever for x10.

Trunks has been the strongest mortal in the show to date.

Where did it say that? I just assumed Whis meant a Strong Mortals in "a" universe. Not specifically the 8 that are participating.

Yeah this is true, I just took another look at Herms comment, I suppose Whis could just mean in general.

Yes, that's why I said that a character stronger than a Hakaishin is not currently so absurd. We saw how various gods were surprised just by the SSB in the tournament display. And for Goku and Vegeta to settle down, even after Whis's statement, I think they hide something to face it

[larzooma]

Goku SSG could already make Beerus use a considerable amount of power, calling the Saiyajin even splendid. Not to mention that he countered very powerful attacks of beerus (hundreds of spheres with the power to destroy a planet). Goku has been MUCH stronger since this fight, including using the Kaioken.

Yeah so with the fight that Goku was able to put up back then and with all the big gains he's made since it'd be a bit contradictory with the story if Beerus was still supposed to be miles beyond where Goku is now.

I know they retconned it in the end but Beerus wasn't supposed to be that much stronger than Goku originally in the movie.

The Kaioken x10 scene sorta ruined that. In hindsight Goku should have just used Kaioken x2 against Hit. There was no need whatsoever for x10.

Trunks has been the strongest mortal in the show to date.

Where did it say that? I just assumed Whis meant a Strong Mortals in "a" universe. Not specifically the 8 that are participating.

Yeah this is true, I just took another look at Herms comment, I suppose Whis could just mean in general.

Yes, that's why I said that a character stronger than a Hakaishin is not currently so absurd. We saw how various gods were surprised just by the SSB in the tournament display. And for Goku and Vegeta to settle down, even after Whis's statement, I think they hide something to face it

I think Beerus is far and away more powerful than Goku and Vegeta still, considering they're typical reaction to angering him. Sure he has the Hakai, but I think it's more than the one ability. Whis may have been talking about one of the 4 universes excluded form the tournament.

[Cabba]

Any theories as to who might be this so called mortal stronger than Gods of Destruction?
I think Jiren is too obvious which is why its not him

I think Beerus is far and away more powerful than Goku and Vegeta still, considering they're typical reaction to angering him. Sure he has the Hakai, but I think it's more than the one ability. Whis may have been talking about one of the 4 universes excluded form the tournament.

This is actually a pretty good point, however given the context why would wiss mention him if he is not participating anyways? Gokus original question was if U7 is sure to win
But then again i was expecting a reaction from everybody freaking out about this super strong character, which makes me think you might be right about that

[TAF108]

I don't think if LSSJ Kale had one-shotted Cabba, that would put her anywhere near SSJB Vegeta of the Champa Arc.

I mean, Vegeta was heavily suppressed there. Vegeta as a SSJ2 could've killed SSJ Cabba with a single attack. Now some people might say that's a stretch, but just imagine that's a 2x boost. People have done considerable damage with far less. I think the best example is Imperfect Cell (Post Gingertown) when he KO'd Piccolo. He was stronger than Piccolo sure, but 2x? Unlikely. Or going back to the Freeza arc, how easily Goku defeated the Ginyu Force. And Ginyu assumed he was doing that with a 25% difference. I'd liken what Vegeta did to Cabba, to what he did to Goten. I have no doubt he could've KO'd Goten in his SSJ state, but he can hold back enough in SSJ2 to do the same.

That in mind I'd say the current rankings are LSSJ Kale ~ SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ Cabba.

As far as Universe 6's standings as a whole I'd say it's something like Hit > Frost? > LSSJ Kale ~ SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ Cabba >= Magetta >= Frost? It's hard to place Frost, because he's improved according to Hit, even to "almost make him get serious". If he's being honest, Frost improved a lot. He's improved in general, so it's hard to say if he's surpassed Magetta & Frost. I'm also assuming Cabba's surpassed Magetta, but honestly no idea if that's the case.

So I guess the chances of universe 6 are incredibly slim outside of whatever strategy they have. But to be fair, we don't know who the last 4 members are. 3 if we assume they're getting Botamo again. But considering the ring out rule, I wouldn't get him again myself.

[Bullza]

Curious. Are the universe 6 base saiyans stronger than Cell Saga top tiers? How do they compare in their SSJ forms?

Are you asking if the Universe 6 Base Saiyans stronger are stronger than SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell? If so then I would say no. Going by the manga they're definitely not.

Cabba was for the most part as strong as Vegeta who was at least stronger than his Buu Arc self. Caulifla is stronger than Cabba from the looks of it and with Super Saiyan 2 she's gotta be at least as strong as Majin Vegeta.

Kale I'd say was still a mystery but probably stronger still.

[Cabba]

Are you asking if the Universe 6 Base Saiyans stronger are stronger than SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell? If so then I would say no. Going by the manga they're definitely not.
Cabba was for the most part as strong as Vegeta who was at least stronger than his Buu Arc self. Caulifla is stronger than Cabba from the looks of it and with Super Saiyan 2 she's gotta be at least as strong as Majin Vegeta.
Kale I'd say was still a mystery but probably stronger still.

I wouldn't say Perfect Cell SS2 tier but i could definitely see their base forms being at least as powerful as Perfect Cell
Goku and Vegeta base forms are much stronger than they were in majin arc, Piccolo is also much stronger than before

Edit
Also Caulifla SS2 only being Majin Arc Vegeta would be utter trash
Goku and Vegeta SSJ(2) forms already push near Vegeto tier levels

[Bullza]

I wouldn't say Perfect Cell SS2 tier but i could definitely see their base forms being at least as powerful as Perfect Cell

Goku and Vegeta base forms are much stronger than they were in majin arc, Piccolo is also much stronger than before

I couldn't see them being nearly as high as that. It's still all of a mystery because we don't know exactly how strong Base Goku is supposed to be now but he along with Vegeta and Cabba as well would have seemingly have been weaker than Piccolo during the Universe 6 Tournament.

How strong is Piccolo? According to the manga probably not all that different from what he was in Z. In the anime though...I'm not sure how much stronger he was supposed to be since Z or if that training with Gohan did much for him as he was never said to have powered up significantly back then.

At least for the manga it's probably safe to say that they aren't stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan in Base form at least.

[Cabba]

I wouldn't say Perfect Cell SS2 tier but i could definitely see their base forms being at least as powerful as Perfect Cell

Goku and Vegeta base forms are much stronger than they were in majin arc, Piccolo is also much stronger than before

I couldn't see them being nearly as high as that. It's still all of a mystery because we don't know exactly how strong Base Goku is supposed to be now but he along with Vegeta and Cabba as well would have seemingly have been weaker than Piccolo during the Universe 6 Tournament.

How strong is Piccolo? According to the manga probably not all that different from what he was in Z. In the anime though...I'm not sure how much stronger he was supposed to be since Z or if that training with Gohan did much for him as he was never said to have powered up significantly back then.

At least for the manga it's probably safe to say that they aren't stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan in Base form at least.

The one thing i would advice against is using isolated scenes from the past as definitive evidence of something, the U6 arc in this case. Also there is no conclusive evidence to say Piccolo was stronger than their base forms in the U6 arc. The best thing to do is to take everything as a whole to pin point where approximately characters are.

Base Goku and Vegeta were freaking monsters on FnF if we go by specific scenes or the Purple vegeta episode even. The episode of Goku fighting Bergamo, buu and sparring with Gohan puts him at the very least on majin SS2 tier
Right now i would put Vegeta and Goku base form anywhere from Perfect Cell to Majin Vegeta and their SS(2) forms anywhere from Buutenks to Vegeto

In the past episode Piccolo said he was training while Gohan was busy studying. Piccolo was strong enough to beat SS2 Gohan. So thats a pretty huge boost

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

A mortal that's stronger than a God of Destruction that beat Beerus at "arm wrestling". Interesting.

Also, Goku says that he or Vegeta could beat Freeza if the guy gets too rowdy.

Also, Freeza's unrepentance level is through the roof! He simply REFUSES to have his soul cleansed! He not only has a body of steel, but mental fortitude of steel as well!

[Booze Sama]

Any theories as to who might be this so called mortal stronger than Gods of Destruction?
I think Jiren is too obvious which is why its not him

I think Beerus is far and away more powerful than Goku and Vegeta still, considering they're typical reaction to angering him. Sure he has the Hakai, but I think it's more than the one ability. Whis may have been talking about one of the 4 universes excluded form the tournament.

This is actually a pretty good point, however given the context why would wiss mention him if he is not participating anyways? Gokus original question was if U7 is sure to win
But then again i was expecting a reaction from everybody freaking out about this super strong character, which makes me think you might be right about that

I'm betting it is Jiren and they're referring to Bermoud being stronger than Beerus.

[buutenks]

Wait so now we r using manga scaling? Why is that when all this stuff is happening in the anime.

Anyways u6 arc base Goku>characters in the buu saga(except maybe Vegetto), since base Cabba is equal to u6 arc base Vegeta means Lssj Kale and ssj1 and 2 Caulifla stomp Buu saga characters.

Stop placing buu saga strength on a pedestal, it has long been surpassed by u7 and u6 saiyans.

[DBZ Macky]

Any theories as to who might be this so called mortal stronger than Gods of Destruction?
I think Jiren is too obvious which is why its not him

I think Beerus is far and away more powerful than Goku and Vegeta still, considering they're typical reaction to angering him. Sure he has the Hakai, but I think it's more than the one ability. Whis may have been talking about one of the 4 universes excluded form the tournament.

This is actually a pretty good point, however given the context why would wiss mention him if he is not participating anyways? Gokus original question was if U7 is sure to win
But then again i was expecting a reaction from everybody freaking out about this super strong character, which makes me think you might be right about that

I'm betting it is Jiren and they're referring to Bermoud being stronger than Beerus.

Yeah, I'm thinking Whis was referring to Vermoud and Jiren too, as obvious as it seems.
Does defeating him in an arm-wrestling match actually make him stronger? I think he might be stronger, but not by a large amount. Enough to be "stronger" than Beerus yet less "troublesome"

Other than that, it mostly felt like a throw-away line, kind of like the one where they said the Great Priest was one of the top 5 strongest guys, only for the other 4 guys to never be mentioned.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Wait, Freeza got stronger?
Goku said that in the position of Freeza, he could not make agreements, but Freeza says that he can get even stronger and he is transformed.
Then he says that Goku is curious about his evolution.

Did he really get stronger? After that, Goku says that was his weak point.
I do not understand

Yeah so with the fight that Goku was able to put up back then and with all the big gains he's made since it'd be a bit contradictory with the story if Beerus was still supposed to be miles beyond where Goku is now.

I know they retconned it in the end but Beerus wasn't supposed to be that much stronger than Goku originally in the movie.

The Kaioken x10 scene sorta ruined that. In hindsight Goku should have just used Kaioken x2 against Hit. There was no need whatsoever for x10.

Trunks has been the strongest mortal in the show to date.

Yeah this is true, I just took another look at Herms comment, I suppose Whis could just mean in general.

Yes, that's why I said that a character stronger than a Hakaishin is not currently so absurd. We saw how various gods were surprised just by the SSB in the tournament display. And for Goku and Vegeta to settle down, even after Whis's statement, I think they hide something to face it

I think Beerus is far and away more powerful than Goku and Vegeta still, considering they're typical reaction to angering him. Sure he has the Hakai, but I think it's more than the one ability. Whis may have been talking about one of the 4 universes excluded form the tournament.

Neither Goku nor Vegeta was surprised to learn that there is a universe in which a mortal is more powerful than a Hakaishinn.

I believe they are hiding something, or they are stronger than we imagine.
Vegeta trained on RoSaT, Goku apparently has a new transformation (maybe Vegeta too), so I do not think they're far from Beerus, but we're not sure.

In the manga, Zamasu says that Goku and Vegeta (in the Champa tournament) had a level approaching the Hakaishins.
After that, Vegeta trained in the RoSaT and Goku dominated the SSB, staying on the level of Gattai Zamasu.
They sure are pretty close in the manga too.