Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

To the Sidra-Freeza discussion: a GoD's job is to destroy planets. That's something Vegeta could do back in the Saiyan arc. Destroying a Solar System is something Cell could do. I think it's nonsensical to claim Sidra is incapable of destroying stuff because of his power. It clearly has to do with mindset, the same promo material that says he can't destroy stuff also says he's indecisive.

[DBZ Macky]

So, how much stronger is Super Saiyan Blue compared to Super Saiyan God?
Blue is definitely stronger than the latter, but I don't think the gap isn't too large given SSG Goku's performance against in the Manga. I think SSB might even be only ~10% stronger than SSG. Thoughts?

Does this:

[spoiler]

The way I see it, and to address the manga and anime differences, with symbolic quantities or tiers:

Base Goku was 1 in the Boo saga.
The ritual was made and he's now 1'000 as a SSJG.
He kept that power through SSJ as if it were a normal increase over base.
Goku powers down by how many times he would have increased into SSJ from base (10 fold).
He's 100 times stronger than he was in the Boo saga with a similar transformation or state. SSJG was the trigger.
That means that his powered up forms (SSJ2 and 3) are now stronger than when he transformed into SSJG in Battle of Gods.
In the manga, it has been recovered and presented as a constant power up, beyond that of SSJ2 and 3, so their base doesn't need to change.
SSJ Blue in the manga would go from 10% to Full Power, or 10 times the latter in case SSJG was used before it, which means that SSJ2 and 3 are still below SSJG.

It's obviously speculation, but the only means to keep it leveled with the events, in case we thought that they were too inconsistent.

[/spoiler]

... answer your question? I mean, I have posted it countless times, and I don't think that people agree with it fully to not reply.

Not really. You're under the assumption that Base Goku (Post God Ritual) was a lot weaker than SS Goku (Post God Ritual), even though he performed just as well as the latter, if not better. After all, Base Goku destroyed the Beerus Ball, even though SS Goku wasn't able to do so.

[Desassina]

Everyone is under somekind of assumption. If the game is to make it consistent, then we'll have to take the relevant info out of God knows what Akira Toriyama wanted, and Toyotaro or Toei adapted into their products. The question is: was it plausible? Or shall we dismiss things on a picking game? A SSJ is at the tipping point of their base forms going all out either way.

[Marlowe89]

So, how much stronger is Super Saiyan Blue compared to Super Saiyan God?
Blue is definitely stronger than the latter, but I don't think the gap isn't too large given SSG Goku's performance against in the Manga. I think SSB might even be only ~10% stronger than SSG. Thoughts?

Well, it's a bit confusing because originally there definitely wasn't meant to be a big difference between the two forms. In the films, Super Saiyan Blue only provides a fractional increase from Super Saiyan God; the manga seemed to be the same since God Goku was performing considerably better than a 10% Blue Vegeta and God Vegeta could keep up with Rose Black in speed, and as I've mentioned previously, we have no reason to think that the anime was any different in that regard.

However, there appears to have been somewhat of a shift in Blue's mechanics. The manga now has 100% Blue, which allows Goku to go from being below Super Saiyan Rose in power all the way to being able to compete with the likes of Fusion Zamasu, whereas the anime demonstrated in the previous arc that Goku and Vegeta can further empower their Blue forms through rage.

So I'd say there's probably a bigger difference between God and Blue now than there was at first, but still likely not as big as a 50x multiplier or anything crazy like that.

[LowRyder2005]

To the Sidra-Freeza discussion: a GoD's job is to destroy planets. That's something Vegeta could do back in the Saiyan arc. Destroying a Solar System is something Cell could do. I think it's nonsensical to claim Sidra is incapable of destroying stuff because of his power. It clearly has to do with mindset, the same promo material that says he can't destroy stuff also says he's indecisive.

I didn't mean to put it like he outright couldn't destroy anything or that he couldn't blow up a planet. What I meant is that he could possibly lack the power to destroy things as easily as other Hakaishin or with the same magnitude.

Or, for that matter, basically have more difficulty Hakai-ing things out of existence, I suppose? For the sake of the theory, the argument would have some basis after the episode in question, since both Freeza and Goku survive what is labeled as unescapable "destruction energy".

That being said, it was only a possibility, merely to reinforce the fact that if Sidra also lacked some power (after the implication he could possibly have a hard time handling Freeza), ending up in the lower end of the spectrum of the universe busters in Dragon Ball Super, it would be unsurprising. The only Hakaishin we have seen fighting so far are Beerus and Champa, who are labeled as equal and have universal-scale feats of destruction (compared to Cell's lower-end feat), but it's never established that all of them in every universe need that level of power, or even that one couldn't have grown weaker over time.

[Doctor.]

It was stated, either by Vados or Whis, that Gods of Destruction, not Champa and Beerus, coudn't fight each other or else the universe would be destroyed. This seems to imply they're all in the same ballpark.

[Bullza]

There still isnt much of a clear indication of the difference between God and Blue.

I don't think Blue is just Super Saiyan's power stacked on top of God's power because Super Saiyan should be that weak in comparison that there's be no notable increase in strength, Blue would be insignificantly stronger.

Blue being 50 times stronger seems a bit much if characters like Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 can match up to it somewhat. It'd also put Beerus and God Goku too far apart (over 500 times) and that doesn't make any sense.

In the manga a >10% Blue Vegeta should probably still be stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

God Goku came up short against Beerus but current Blue Goku is a match for Merged Zamasu but then he's also weaker than Beerus. God Goku could be stopped by Hit but not Blue Goku.

I don't think you can put a number on it really.

[wolflonnie]

Anime list:

[spoiler]Tier 0

Zenos

Tier 1

Zeno guards
Grand Priest

Tier 2: Angel Tier

Other strong angels
Vados
Whis
Other weak angels

Tier 3: GoD Tier

Other strong GoDs
Beerus, SSB Vegetto
Champa, Merged Zamasu (LoJ)
Other weaker GoDs (ex.: Sidra), Merged Zamasu (bulk up)

Tier 4: SSB+ Tier

Jiren
Current SSBKKx10 Goku
Toppo
Weakened Merged Zamasu (bulk up), Spirit Trunks
Merged Zamasu (Initial), Current SSBKKx2 Goku
Current SSB Goku, Current SSB Vegeta,True Golden Frieza
Current Hit
SSBKKx2 Goku (Zamasu ark), SSR Goku Black (Scythe)
SSB Vegeta (Zamasu ark post training), SSBKKx10 Goku (U6)
SSR Goku Black (Sword)
SSR Goku Black (initial), SSB Goku rage boost (Zamasu ark) SSB Goku (Zamasu ark later half), Kahseral
Dyspo

Tier 5: Initial SSB/SSG Tier

SSI Trunks, SSB Goku (Zamasu ark beginning), SSB Vegeta (Zamasu ark beginning), Hit (U6), Giant Bergamo, current Android 17
Golden Frieza, SSB Goku (U6), SSB Vegeta (U6)
Initial SSB Goku, initial SSB Vegeta, base Black Goku (post 1° Zenkai)
Suppressed Beerus
SSG Goku, Base Goku (god essence, vs Beerus), SSJ Goku (god essence, vs Beerus), current Ultimate Gohan

TIer 6: Upper tier Majin Buu Saga (Vegetto to Ultimate Gohan levels)

Future Zamasu
Current Goku SSJ3, Black Goku (in the present)
Current Goku SSJ2, current Vegeta SSJ2, Caulifla SSJ2
Future Trunks SSJ2, Rageta, Kale LSSJ
Present Zamasu
Current Goku SSJ, current Vegeta SSJ, Caulifla SSJ
Future Trunks SSJ, Bergamo, current Cabba SSJ
Current Piccolo
Ultimate Gohan (@ Piccolo training - Equal to Ultimate Gohan @ Super Buu)
Current base Goku, current Base Vegeta
Current base Gohan, base Caulifla
Current base Cabba

Tier 7: Lower tier Majin Buu Saga (SSJ3 Gotenks+ to Majin Vegeta levels)

Piccolo (@ Piccolo training)
Cabba SSJ (U6), SSJ2 Gohan (@ Piccolo training)
Final Form Frost
Magetta, Slim Buu
Base Cabba (U6), base Goku (U6), base Vegeta (U6)
Final Form Frieza (RoF), Base Goku (RoF), SSJ Gohan (@ Piccolo training)
Third Form Frost
Gotenks SSJ3
Base Future Trunks, base Gohan (@ Piccolo Traning), Good Buu
Drugged Basil
Lavander, Basil, Tired final form Frost

Tier 8: Cell Saga tier (SPC to Androids tier)

SSJ Gohan (RoF)
Ginew-Tagoma
Tagoma
Piccolo (U6)
Base Gohan (RoF)
Piccolo (RoF)
Current Android 18 -> I have her at Semi-Perfect Cell level
Current Krillin -> I have him at Android 16 level
Current Tienshinhan
Current Roshi[/spoiler]

[DBZ Macky]

It was stated, either by Vados or Whis, that Gods of Destruction, not Champa and Beerus, coudn't fight each other or else the universe would be destroyed. This seems to imply they're all in the same ballpark.

So, if two Gods of Destruction were weak enough to not destroy the universe, then they'd be allowed to fight each other?

I don't think you can put a number on it really.

I think it's possible if you treat the improvements over SSB as different "stages". IMO there's two (or more) improved stages of SSB.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
One of them is the one that's common in the Manga, Anime and the Movies, the one we see in RoF. This one's just "a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan". Which is to say, if SSG was a 1,000,000 boost over base, then SSGSS would be close to a 1,000,050. Seems to fit in with the SSB forms not being too much of an improvement on SSG, and how you can pretty much treat both forms as nearly equal. Let's say this is a 6 on the God scale, same as Super Saiyan God.

Rage Enhanced Super Saiyan Blue
It's how Vegeta got strong enough to fight Black in the Anime, despite him not being able to power up a lot when him and Goku trained in the RoSaT together for 3 years. It seems Vegeta was able to enhance SSB's power through anger (as explained by Black). Goku also powers-up a lot, possibly by understanding how Vegeta's power-up works, allowing him to perform better than Vegeta in their beam struggle against merged Zamasu, and allowing him to fight on par with Hit in just his SSB form (making him superior to his Kaio-Ken x10 self from the Universe 6 arc). This one should be a 60 on the above-mentioned scale, but can increase or decrease with anger.
Incidentally, Vegeta switching in and out of Blue in the Manga to minimize his stamina drain would be equivalent to this power.

Perfect Super Saiyan Blue
This one is the "True" power of SSB. That is to say, it's the Super Saiyan Form stacked perfectly with Super Saiyan God's power. Thus, it's 50x stronger than Super Saiyan God, so it'd be a 300 on the scale. This fits in perfectly (pun intended) with Perfect Blue Goku being close to SSB Vegetto (Who I have 60x stronger than regular SSB Goku) but not quite there yet.

It's probably a bit of a reach, but that's the best explanation I could make for DB Super's messy scaling.

[Bullza]

think it's possible if you treat the improvements over SSB as different "stages". IMO there's two (or more) improved stages of SSB

Well in the manga there appears to be Super Saiyan Blue and Complete Super Saiyan Blue. In the anime, I'd really have just said there was Super Saiyan Blue, they get angry and it boosts their power but it doesn't look like it comes down once they've calmed down.

SSG was a 1,000,000 boost over base, then SSGSS would be close to a 1,000,050

This would seem too small a boost, as he'd only begetting .00005% stronger and it'd mean Frieza's Gold transformation would be perhaps .0001% stronger and you don't get that sense at all because Final Form Frieza couldn't hit Blue Goku and when they powered up fully they noted the difference so it couldn't be that insignificant.

it'd be a 300 on the scale

And then this one, for the anime, would be too high because it'd mean SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 would be a 3,000 and Beerus was stronger still. It doesn't really make much sense for the story for Beerus to be 500 times stronger than SSJG Goku especially when he said he regretted seeking him out briefly.

At a wild guess I'd say the multiplier from God to Blue was in the single digits like how it was for SSJ2 and SSJ3.

[Doctor.]

So, if two Gods of Destruction were weak enough to not destroy the universe, then they'd be allowed to fight each other?

I assume so. I mean, why have this rule in place if not to prevent the destruction of the universe? Every time we saw Beerus and Champa fight (be it in the anime or the manga), they were stopped because they were about to destroy the universe. Seems like a pretty arbitrary rule if its goal is not to prevent the universe's destruction.

I assume the reason some of the GoDs are gonna fight next ep is because they're in the World of Void and the stage is presumably indestructible.

[Bullza]

At this point the mortals should be at risk of destroying both Universes just the same.

If a heavily suppressed Beerus and SSJG Goku can threaten a universe then you'd think that if SSJB Goku Kaioken and Toppo had kept fighting that they'd be of a similar risk.

As someone said Toppo is a candidate for being a God of Destruction and possibly Jiren is stronger than his God of Destruction. Then in the manga they said Vegito is probably stronger than Beerus so I dont think they're as far away as some people would think.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

At this point I think there's nothing more to Super Saiyan God than ki-compression, aka the only thing we have to go off of anyway. The Super Saiyan God ritual was Goku's ki automatically being compressed for a set amount of time, and Goku surprised Beerus by learning to compress it beyond the time limit. Then on Beerus's planet Goku and Vegeta learn to fully master ki compression which results in the power associated with Saiyan Beyond God, and their effort in stopping ki from leaking is what results in either Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue upon transforming.

I'm only mentioning this because of Vegeta's "Is this the secret to divine energy?!" while in the Not-Hyberbolic Time Chamber from the latest dub episode, which I'm not sure was as explicit in the Japanese version. If this is all it takes to become a God, then it's not profoundly weird that other characters are now finding their way up there.

[Berserker1921]

At this point the mortals should be at risk of destroying both Universes just the same.

If a heavily suppressed Beerus and SSJG Goku can threaten a universe then you'd think that if SSJB Goku Kaioken and Toppo had kept fighting that they'd be of a similar risk.

As someone said Toppo is a candidate for being a God of Destruction and possibly Jiren is stronger than his God of Destruction. Then in the manga they said Vegito is probably stronger than Beerus so I dont think they're as far away as some people would think.

I personally see it like this. Goku without kaioken is prob 70-80% Vegito/Gods of Destruction level.

Beerus/Vegito>Sidra/Jiren/Goku KK>>Vegeta/Toppo

[IKevinX]

At this point the mortals should be at risk of destroying both Universes just the same.

If a heavily suppressed Beerus and SSJG Goku can threaten a universe then you'd think that if SSJB Goku Kaioken and Toppo had kept fighting that they'd be of a similar risk.

As someone said Toppo is a candidate for being a God of Destruction and possibly Jiren is stronger than his God of Destruction. Then in the manga they said Vegito is probably stronger than Beerus so I dont think they're as far away as some people would think.

I think only the Gods of Destruction have the power to destroy an universe while casually fighting.
Otherwise we would have seen such shockwaves after. (Goku vs Golden Frieza.. Hit.. Most of the FT arc) whereas we only saw it once Beerus was directly involved.

[Bullza]

It seems inconsistent to me. SSJG Goku and Beerus suppressing himself to Goku's level did an energy clash which created the "super duper dense energy" which Elder Kai said would destroy the universe, that's why Beerus had to negate it.

But then SSJB Goku and Merged Zamasu clash energy and there's no such thing. Nor when he fought Golden Frieza and they had a beam struggle.

I don't think it's just because Beerus was so powerful because he was holding back a lot. Definitely seems inconsistent.

That fight seemed on a much bigger scale than pretty much every other one that came after it.

[Triggered Vegeta]

At this point, I dont think anybody besides G.O.D and higher in power level can destroy a universe. Beerus & Champa can do so individually. Beerus >>>> Goku, Vegeta, Goku Black, Trunks & Gohan meaning these lesser characters aren't capable of such a feat. I'd place them at Multi Galactic at best.

[Marlowe89]

I think only the Gods of Destruction have the power to destroy an universe while casually fighting.
Otherwise we would have seen such shockwaves after. (Goku vs Golden Frieza.. Hit.. Most of the FT arc) whereas we only saw it once Beerus was directly involved.

The universal shockwaves were attributed to both Goku and Beerus though, not just Beerus. They figured out how to neutralize them during the fight, which is probably why you don't see them anymore.

Honestly, there's absolutely no reason to believe the Gods of Destruction are still untouchable at this point in the show. That's certainly not what the dialogue has been insinuating ever since the arc began, and if anything the stronger protagonists should be approaching at least the weaker GoDs.

[TheSaiyanGod]

To the Sidra-Freeza discussion: a GoD's job is to destroy planets. That's something Vegeta could do back in the Saiyan arc. Destroying a Solar System is something Cell could do. I think it's nonsensical to claim Sidra is incapable of destroying stuff because of his power. It clearly has to do with mindset, the same promo material that says he can't destroy stuff also says he's indecisive.

Are you talking about the dialogue between him and Rou?

Destroying a Warrior with a level of power next to yours is totally different from destroying a planet or a solar system. His power allows this, but it is different when he faces a powerful adversary.

I see no problem in the fact that Goku, Freeza, Toppo or Black are close to the power of the Hakaishins. This has been said several times.
In contrast, it has never been said that Beerus was far superior to the current Goku and Vegeta for example

[Doctor.]

To the Sidra-Freeza discussion: a GoD's job is to destroy planets. That's something Vegeta could do back in the Saiyan arc. Destroying a Solar System is something Cell could do. I think it's nonsensical to claim Sidra is incapable of destroying stuff because of his power. It clearly has to do with mindset, the same promo material that says he can't destroy stuff also says he's indecisive.

Are you talking about the dialogue between him and Rou?

Destroying a Warrior with a level of power next to yours is totally different from destroying a planet or a solar system. His power allows this, but it is different when he faces a powerful adversary.

I see no problem in the fact that Goku, Freeza, Toppo or Black are close to the power of the Hakaishins. This has been said several times.
In contrast, it has never been said that Beerus was far superior to the current Goku and Vegeta for example

No, I'm talking about people claiming that Sidra didn't have the necessary power to be a God of Destruction, which is ludicrous considering even namek Freeza would. Sidra's inability to destroy planets comes from his indecisiveness; I didn't give my opinion as to whether Freeza is close to Sidra nor do I intend to.