Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SuperDragoon]

I don't know why people are thinking that this episode proves that Base Goku is weak. If anything it shows the people like Krillin and 18 are much stronger now. Remember when Base Copy-Vegeta easily beat SSJ3 Gotenks? Base Goku is much more powerful than him now. As weird as it is it seems that even the humans are in the Base Saiyan tier of power. 18 saving Goku doesn't necessarily mean that she is more powerful than Goku but they are close in power.

[SuperDragoon]

Load of excuses.

In fact, I watched the episode back and I have concluded that a good portion of the Troopers, if not all of them are also in the Base-God range.

Yes, he wants to conserve energy by getting the shit kicked out of him. Makes sense.

He was in no immediate danger, but even then, like I said, I concluded that the Troopers were pretty much Base-God tier. Why? Because we know:

Base Cabba = Base Vegeta and we know that Caulifla is comparable to Cabba. So, Base Caulifla also = Base Vegeta/Goku.

Zoiray (the green Pride Trooper) was bombing Caulifla and inflicting genuine damage for a good portion of the episode. Only possible if he was strong enough. Kahseral is naturally stronger than him and 18 didn't look out of place at all.

Conclusion:

18 is Base-God Tier and so are the Troopers.

Base Goku simply isn't that strong.

Prove it. Your disbelief argument isn't going to fly I'm afraid. Find me statements contradicting it. In fact, try your very best to explain away all of the proofs, please.

If 18 is "base-God" tier, then so is Kuririn, who was keeping up with opponents that could tag and hurt #18 and even managed to trade a Ki blast with her at the same speed and adding strength each time during their team attack; not to mention keeping up with Gohan and Goku during the recruitment episodes.

And if Kuririn is base-God tier, then so are Roshi and Tenshinhan.

Believing that every weakling surpassed SS3 Gotenks in a matter of hours is stupid. It's much more realistic to think they don't care about keeping powerlevels consistent and simply nerfed Goku.

It not being very believable doesn't mean much when Super has done a whole bunch of stupid things with power scaling. If anything it seems absurd that they having gotten more powerful. Heck, in just a few hours Good Buu went from Buu saga tier to being at Base Goku's level, and Basil went from Cell-ish level to being able to contend with Base Goku and Vegeta. IF they could get so much more powerful in just a few hours why couldn't 18 Krillin or Roshi? It doesn't make sense from a power level perspective but its consistent with what Super has shown us.

[Zamasu55]

I don't know why people are thinking that this episode proves that Base Goku is weak. If anything it shows the people like Krillin and 18 are much stronger now. Remember when Base Copy-Vegeta easily beat SSJ3 Gotenks? Base Goku is much more powerful than him now. As weird as it is it seems that even the humans are in the Base Saiyan tier of power. 18 saving Goku doesn't necessarily mean that she is more powerful than Goku but they are close in power.

So Shosa (?) and Majora are stronger than Gotenks. Interesting.

[Doctor.]

In fact, I watched the episode back and I have concluded that a good portion of the Troopers, if not all of them are also in the Base-God range.



He was in no immediate danger, but even then, like I said, I concluded that the Troopers were pretty much Base-God tier. Why? Because we know:

Base Cabba = Base Vegeta and we know that Caulifla is comparable to Cabba. So, Base Caulifla also = Base Vegeta/Goku.

Zoiray (the green Pride Trooper) was bombing Caulifla and inflicting genuine damage for a good portion of the episode. Only possible if he was strong enough. Kahseral is naturally stronger than him and 18 didn't look out of place at all.

Conclusion:

18 is Base-God Tier and so are the Troopers.



Prove it. Your disbelief argument isn't going to fly I'm afraid. Find me statements contradicting it. In fact, try your very best to explain away all of the proofs, please.

If 18 is "base-God" tier, then so is Kuririn, who was keeping up with opponents that could tag and hurt #18 and even managed to trade a Ki blast with her at the same speed and adding strength each time during their team attack; not to mention keeping up with Gohan and Goku during the recruitment episodes.

And if Kuririn is base-God tier, then so are Roshi and Tenshinhan.

Believing that every weakling surpassed SS3 Gotenks in a matter of hours is stupid. It's much more realistic to think they don't care about keeping powerlevels consistent and simply nerfed Goku.

It not being very believable doesn't mean much when Super has done a whole bunch of stupid things with power scaling. If anything it seems absurd that they having gotten more powerful. Heck, in just a few hours Good Buu went from Buu saga tier to being at Base Goku's level, and Basil went from Cell-ish level to being able to contend with Base Goku and Vegeta. IF they could get so much more powerful in just a few hours why couldn't 18 Krillin or Roshi? It doesn't make sense from a power level perspective but its consistent with what Super has shown us.

If it doesn't make sense, then why is it so unbelievable to think that they simply write Goku's power to fit the narrative purpose of the episode and it has no consistency at all? It's not "consistent" with anything, all of the other fighters have been shown to be comparable to their strength level in Z when they fight or spar with each-other (see: Gohan and Piccolo's training episode). You only get this "God tier Gohan! God tier Kuririn! God tier 18!" nonsense when you add Goku and Vegeta's base forms into the mix.

[God Movement]

Load of excuses.

In fact, I watched the episode back and I have concluded that a good portion of the Troopers, if not all of them are also in the Base-God range.

Yes, he wants to conserve energy by getting the shit kicked out of him. Makes sense.

He was in no immediate danger, but even then, like I said, I concluded that the Troopers were pretty much Base-God tier. Why? Because we know:

Base Cabba = Base Vegeta and we know that Caulifla is comparable to Cabba. So, Base Caulifla also = Base Vegeta/Goku.

Zoiray (the green Pride Trooper) was bombing Caulifla and inflicting genuine damage for a good portion of the episode. Only possible if he was strong enough. Kahseral is naturally stronger than him and 18 didn't look out of place at all.

Conclusion:

18 is Base-God Tier and so are the Troopers.

Base Goku simply isn't that strong.

Prove it. Your disbelief argument isn't going to fly I'm afraid. Find me statements contradicting it. In fact, try your very best to explain away all of the proofs, please.

If 18 is "base-God" tier, then so is Kuririn, who was keeping up with opponents that could tag and hurt #18 and even managed to trade a Ki blast with her at the same speed and adding strength each time during their team attack; not to mention keeping up with Gohan and Goku during the recruitment episodes.

And if Kuririn is base-God tier, then so are Roshi and Tenshinhan.

Believing that every weakling surpassed SS3 Gotenks in a matter of hours is stupid. It's much more realistic to think they don't care about keeping powerlevels consistent and simply nerfed Goku.

This was the same Kuririn who in his recruitment episode could at least keep Base Goku on his toes, knock him back and make him turn into a SSJ to prevent being ringed-out. I'm not advocating for Kuririn being as strong as Base Goku (he clearly isn't, considering he was clearly weaker than Base Gohan), but what I am saying is that episode was proof that they are structuring the tournament in such a way that tactics have much more value than they would otherwise. It's pretty obvious that Goku could have really blitzed Kuririn at any point, but he did not, because that's how they chose to structure it.

Being genuinely damaged isn't a thing that can be so easily spun. Caulifla was critically injured by one of the Pride Troopers and we know without question that she is EQUAL to Base Goku/Vegeta as Cabba was stated to be. 18 did way too much damage to fighters who should be that caliber this episode to see it any other way.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The same Goku that wasn't bothered by Jiren at all? I wouldn't take what Base Goku's reactions to Kale was seriously unless you're going to argue she's weaker than Base Goku.

Goku does not know the full power of Jiren. He just knows that Jiren is strong, but not how strong he is. He's excited to know that.

He saw how powerful Kale is in that shape, and being able to focus on his power, would be even more dangerous.
He would at least be worried or think that would be a problem, even if in a comic tone.
But no, it showed no reaction

And why would Goku be woried exactly? It seemed like he could tell Kale was in control of her powers at that point. And that doesn't erase what happened last episode to him either.

Am I saying that this erases what happened in the last episode?

Normally, the recapituations of the previous episode always speak about what happened of more importance, highlighting the unpublished things.
Unlike what happened in some other episodes (being mentioned that Freeza surpassed Goku, being quoted that the SSB is superior to the SSG), here does not seem to speak absolutely nothing of the power of the Kale, does not even show the scenes of her fights.
No GoD or other character talks about her incredible strength, as if she "rivaled" the SSB, as many people here said

As if it really does not fose something amazing and not new.

She remains strong and continues to hit Goku in the last episode, but her power is not so great.

[Bullza]

The opening of Dragon Ball Super itself shows Base Goku giving it a really good go against Jiren. Usually I wouldn't pay it much mind because it was just an opening but seeing as the Basil and Brianne footage from the opening was in the series then that's likely going to be in it as well.

You probably won't see Goku go all out in Base or Super Saiyan Blue until he fights Jiren. Until then he's just pacing himself.

People will have a problem accepting this I'm sure but it really already kinda happened with the Universe 6 saga.

- He fights Botamo and has some trouble. Turns out he was messing about because he had a full stomach.

- He burns it off and then beats Botamo no problem.

- He fights Frost in his First Form in what appears to be a serious and intense fight but Goku was holding back.

- He fights Frost in his Third Form in what appears to be a serious and intense fight but Goku was still holding back because he'd only just "woken up".

- And then he fights Hit and gives him a bit of trouble and hurts him.

Base Goku went from having trouble with Botamo to giving trouble to Hit. What's happening here with him having trouble with these Pride Troopers scrubs but then fighting Jiren is the same general thing going on as what happened before.

[God Movement]

Because Dragon Ball Super's in-battle indicators are pretty shoddy, there are only a few sure-fire indicators you can go by to assess whether fighters are comparable or not. The best indicator is without question: damage. If you inflict a hefty amount of damage which leads to wounds and heavy fatigue then it's rather obvious you have comparable power, holding back or not.

[Marlowe89]

The opening of Dragon Ball Super itself shows Base Goku giving it a really good go against Jiren. Usually I wouldn't pay it much mind because it was just an opening but seeing as the Basil and Brianne footage from the opening was in the series then that's likely going to be in it as well.

That argument doesn't quite hold. Were that the case, Jiren would be massively holding back either way if he's to fight base Goku regardless of wherever you place the latter. We're talking about a character who is, for all intents and purposes, most likely significantly stronger than Super Saiyan Blue at full power; his level of strength is already more or less established so it wouldn't say anything about base Goku's strength since Jiren would be restraining himself by a huge amount.

The difference between all those examples you've cited and what's happening in this episode is that Goku was established to be holding back in those instances. Yet, the only time that was the case in the tournament of power was within the context of him choosing not to transform, which has absolutely nothing to do with his base strength. For example, there's no suggestion provided via the dialogue that he was restraining himself against Tupper. Quite the opposite, in fact -- Goku was struggling pretty damn hard to break free from his hold and couldn't manage to do so even after an extended period of time and additionally needed to be bailed out by 18.

This notion that base Goku is far above the Pride Troopers and all these other fighters in the tournament doesn't jibe at all with everything that's been consistently conveyed in the show. People need to adapt their interpretation to suit the evidence, not the other way around.

[TheSaiyanGod]

One last thing. At the end of the episode, Goku says he'll let Caulifla and Kale leave, because the two would get even stronger.
And with that the real battle will still happen.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That is, he wants them both to become even stronger so he can face them, showing more evidence of Goku really had not been serious in the previous fight and that he is still much stronger

[Dragonballgod19]

One last thing. At the end of the episode, Goku says he'll let Caulifla and Kale leave, because the two would get even stronger.
And with that the real battle will still happen.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That is, he wants them both to become even stronger so he can face them, showing more evidence of Goku really had not been serious in the previous fight and that he is still much stronger

lol can't take Caulifla she basically a jobber

[TheMikado]

I don't know why people are thinking that this episode proves that Base Goku is weak. If anything it shows the people like Krillin and 18 are much stronger now. Remember when Base Copy-Vegeta easily beat SSJ3 Gotenks? Base Goku is much more powerful than him now. As weird as it is it seems that even the humans are in the Base Saiyan tier of power. 18 saving Goku doesn't necessarily mean that she is more powerful than Goku but they are close in power.

People are talking about how easily she lifted the supposedly heavy guy. If Goku in base is similar to 18 then he should have been able to perform the same or similar feat. It shows him as weaker in base than 18. Further if you think that Krillin is equal to a base Goku who is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks do you realize how much more powerful he would need to have gotten????

Krillin would have needed to get at a minimum around 1,000,000,000% stronger in a couple of hour by using the training equipment he bought from the store...
Like we're beyond One Punch Man levels of satire at this point.

[TAF108]

One last thing. At the end of the episode, Goku says he'll let Caulifla and Kale leave, because the two would get even stronger.
And with that the real battle will still happen.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That is, he wants them both to become even stronger so he can face them, showing more evidence of Goku really had not been serious in the previous fight and that he is still much stronger

While I'm not into the scaling aspect, this is pretty interesting. Toei has always seemed to be into the whole "The more a Saiyajin fights, the stronger they become." So it seems true that they can progress during battle. Of course, what Goku's expecting seems a little ludicrous (especially considering it's only a 48 minute fight), but interesting nonetheless.

[dragon boss z]

I don't know why people are thinking that this episode proves that Base Goku is weak. If anything it shows the people like Krillin and 18 are much stronger now. Remember when Base Copy-Vegeta easily beat SSJ3 Gotenks? Base Goku is much more powerful than him now. As weird as it is it seems that even the humans are in the Base Saiyan tier of power. 18 saving Goku doesn't necessarily mean that she is more powerful than Goku but they are close in power.

You have to keep in mind Super has different writers for different episodes and they all have different opinions on how strong the characters are. Also Super makes it seem like every single character is close to the same tier. As for 18 and Krillin being close to base Goku, keep the two base theory in mind. Whis did say they become much stronger when they stop their ki from leaking so I just go by when they let their ki leak they are more close to their buu saga base level, when they keep their ki completely sealed they are around Buuhan tier.

[ZombieVito]

So, how strong do you guys have 18 compared to base Goku?

[precita]

18's lack of a recruitment episode means we have no way of gauging her power. While it's expected she got a bit stronger from her Cell/Buu era self...we really have no idea where she's at.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Well Super Saiyan Blue's strength has been Yo-Yoing up and down lately.

He overwhelmed Merged Zamasu but then afterward he matched Krillin. He gave Toppo a good fight but then he only matched Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan. He tied with a powered up Golden Frieza but then got stomped by Kale.

So if he can radically alter his strength in Blue form then he can obviously do it in Base form.

It's weird how it's all down but no I don't think there's two bases. The show wouldn't have done something that confusing and then just decided never to explain it.

Yeah, at this point if there are two Bases then there might as well be two Blues.

[JulianStyles]

Grand Priest said all the weakest fighters have been eliminated. Guess that confirms Tien>Krillin yet again.

[precita]

Grand Priest said all the weakest fighters have been eliminated. Guess that confirms Tien>Krillin yet again.

As I told you in the episode thread, no it does not. Not every single weaker character was eliminated, and Roshi is in no way stronger than Krillin either.

[MainJPW]

Grand Priest said all the weakest fighters have been eliminated. Guess that confirms Tien>Krillin yet again.

Tenshinhan and Roshi>Pride Troopers and ALL of U9 by that logic. Gotcha. Kuririn still has better actual feats.