Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Animelover5487]

So, aside from Zeno or a Hakaishin, could anyone actually beat Botamo in a fight to the death with no out of bounds rules?

We have never seen Botamo fight anyone beyond Super Saiyan tier power so it's likely a God tier opponent could easily take Botamo out.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

If the mortal stronger than a GoD in the anime really was from U4, then the Saiyans would have had the same reaction to U4 entering the World of Void that they had when U11 entered the World of Void.

[Bullza]

So, aside from Zeno or a Hakaishin, could anyone actually beat Botamo in a fight to the death with no out of bounds rules?

Probably a bunch of them if they were to hold him down and put a blast through his eye socket and blow his brains out.

I would figure his defense covers his eyes as well...

Well it doesn't for Luke Cage.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Probably a bunch of them if they were to hold him down and put a blast through his eye socket and blow his brains out.

I would figure his defense covers his eyes as well...

Well it doesn't for Luke Cage.

I don't see how that's relevant...

[Bullza]

I would figure his defense covers his eyes as well...

Well it doesn't for Luke Cage.

I don't see how that's relevant...

Luke Cage has unbreakable skin but his eye isn't skin and that can be pierced by things like a needle.

Botamo might have a rubbery body that deflects attacks but it doesn't mean his eye would be the same. What's to stop Golden Frieza putting a death beam through his eye socket? Prying his mouth open and then firing a blast down so to destroy his organs? What if he just held his mouth closed and covered his nose so he stopped breathing?

They could thrown him into space where he could suffocate and so forth.

[LowRyder2005]

Freeza probably wouldn't need to do it when Golden; if I'm not mistaken, I think they say at some point that Goku would "probably" need to go Blue to damage Botamo.
As for the answer, assuming he breaths like us, asphyxiation (as in "suffocation", "strangling") should work for anyone who's stronger than the base Saiyans in Super; I mean, possibly even the base Saiyans could have done it, given that Botamo can't already inflict any real damage on them.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well it doesn't for Luke Cage.

I don't see how that's relevant...

Luke Cage has unbreakable skin but his eye isn't skin and that can be pierced by things like a needle.

Botamo might have a rubbery body that deflects attacks but it doesn't mean his eye would be the same. What's to stop Golden Frieza putting a death beam through his eye socket? Prying his mouth open and then firing a blast down so to destroy his organs? What if he just held his mouth closed and covered his nose so he stopped breathing?

They could thrown him into space where he could suffocate and so forth.

His body has some kind of property that redirects damage to another dimension. I don't see why that wouldn't apply to his eyes. Also we don't know if he can survive in space.

Frost or Lavenda poisoning him might work though.

Or Buu turning him into candy.

Or Captain Ginyu switching bodies with him...

[TheMikado]

So, aside from Zeno or a Hakaishin, could anyone actually beat Botamo in a fight to the death with no out of bounds rules?

We have never seen Botamo fight anyone beyond Super Saiyan tier power so it's likely a God tier opponent could easily take Botamo out.

Base and SSJ Goku would be approaching God tier according to BoG/RoF.

[lord turbo]

I don't see how Vegeta or anything about Black from the manga is even remotely related to Copy-Vegeta. Vegeta's SS2 - because he is a "SS2" - who previously was stated to be above Goku's SS3 defeats Black (who's either SS or SS2).

There's nothing staying or hinting Vegeta is a SSJ2 and not a SSJ jist like Black. If You're going by aura Black has tje exact same aura, so does Goku as a SSJ during Neko Majin Z and Tarble special. Since SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Black that automatically makes base Vegeta > base Black who's stronger than SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks. That's why I don't think base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks in the anime is a blunder since the same holds true in the manga. Toriyama wamted base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks as far as power levels where concered.

I have also many reserves about Black following the regular multipliers. And Black himself also implies that he still might not control SS2 like he wanted to.

When was this? Also, there's nothing mentioned about Black's multipliers for his SSJ forms being any different than normal so... Also, it mentio Trunks is simply inferior to base Black which didn't always seem to be the case as he used to ise SSJ, but grew to a point he no longer needed it to be comfortably above Trunks in base.

This also fits very well before the fight. The clearest means of comparison is Trunks being described as someone as stronger than Gohan with some mild surprise on Goku's part, which I read as Trunks and Goku still being scalable from their manga selves (otherwise it would make more sense for Goku to say Trunks was simply incredible, that Buu would've been a piece of cake; you don't say "you're stronger than an ant" to describe a gym-goer unless there's some irony). And that Trunks is at best equal to Goku, who's not implied to fall anywhere near Gotenks in base form in the manga.

Keep in mind thay was said about suppressed SSJ2 Trunks, he powered up all the way to max to the point he was equal to SSJ3. Also, I'm talking specificallu about Vegeta since copy Vegeta is the point of interest and in the manga base Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.

There's also absolutely nothing clear-cut about Gotenks vs. Goku in the special if not for the fact they're both above the foe (SS Gotenks can injure or probably even kill Abokado with a punch, while SS Goku beats Abokado's Wahaha with a Kamehemeha), assuming it's canonical.

I was comparing both their physical attacks, SSJ Gotenks special named punch does minor to no lasting damage tk Aka, SSJ Goku's punch literally KO Aka cold in one punch. SSJ Goku is comparablr to SSJ Gotenks during this timeframe if not potentially stronger. He's gotten considerably stronger since post BoGs arc.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't see how Vegeta or anything about Black from the manga is even remotely related to Copy-Vegeta. Vegeta's SS2 - because he is a "SS2" - who previously was stated to be above Goku's SS3 defeats Black (who's either SS or SS2).

There's nothing staying or hinting Vegeta is a SSJ2 and not a SSJ jist like Black. If You're going by aura Black has tje exact same aura, so does Goku as a SSJ during Neko Majin Z and Tarble special. Since SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Black that automatically makes base Vegeta > base Black who's stronger than SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks. That's why I don't think base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks in the anime is a blunder since the same holds true in the manga. Toriyama wamted base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks as far as power levels where concered.

I have also many reserves about Black following the regular multipliers. And Black himself also implies that he still might not control SS2 like he wanted to.

When was this? Also, there's nothing mentioned about Black's multipliers for his SSJ forms being any different than normal so... Also, it mentio Trunks is simply inferior to base Black which didn't always seem to be the case as he used to ise SSJ, but grew to a point he no longer needed it to be comfortably above Trunks in base.

This also fits very well before the fight. The clearest means of comparison is Trunks being described as someone as stronger than Gohan with some mild surprise on Goku's part, which I read as Trunks and Goku still being scalable from their manga selves (otherwise it would make more sense for Goku to say Trunks was simply incredible, that Buu would've been a piece of cake; you don't say "you're stronger than an ant" to describe a gym-goer unless there's some irony). And that Trunks is at best equal to Goku, who's not implied to fall anywhere near Gotenks in base form in the manga.

Keep in mind thay was said about suppressed SSJ2 Trunks, he powered up all the way to max to the point he was equal to SSJ3. Also, I'm talking specificallu about Vegeta since copy Vegeta is the point of interest and in the manga base Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.

There's also absolutely nothing clear-cut about Gotenks vs. Goku in the special if not for the fact they're both above the foe (SS Gotenks can injure or probably even kill Abokado with a punch, while SS Goku beats Abokado's Wahaha with a Kamehemeha), assuming it's canonical.

I was comparing both their physical attacks, SSJ Gotenks special named punch does minor to no lasting damage tk Aka, SSJ Goku's punch literally KO Aka cold in one punch. SSJ Goku is comparablr to SSJ Gotenks during this timeframe if not potentially stronger. He's gotten considerably stronger since post BoGs arc.

1. Vegeta has visible sparks against Black. So does Black (I'm leaving aside Black because we have no precedents for him using any form, but if I had to go off what I know, I'd say he was a SS2... if that's the problem, I suppose). And no, since literally every time the normal Super Saiyans were drawn before by Toyotaro he never had the sparks I won't - will, not - give in to some claim that there's "nothing suggesting he's a Super Saiyan 2", since he has... the sparks of a SS2.
By the way, yes, Goku should be turning Super Saiyan 2 in Neko Majin. And in the *manga* of the Tarble special - notwithstanding that you're mixing many different artists, media and yadda yadda yadda - the sparks appear for one second, but the aura is the same of the regular Super Saiyan in every other panel. The point is yet another one entirely: the fact that other characters generically say "look, as Super Saiyan" doesn't mean much, since the Super Saiyan 2/3 terminology is barely used even in the original manga to differentiate the forms. They're all "Super Saiyan(s)" with some sort of variation. If one wants to get specifical you can call them Super Saiyan 2, "Super Saiyan who surpassed the limit" or 3 or whatever. Bar Vegito, this is virtually always consistent. But, most importantly, Toyotaro is consistent with his own art and the universally accepted iconography of Super Saiyan 2 Goku/ Vegeta/ Gohan.

2. Black states that he couldn't control Goku's body and Super Saiyan like he wanted to (either before or after he goes Rosé, can't remember but it should be after); since Black is not a regular Saiyan, but some sort of entity that states he's gradually overwriting Goku's cells with fluctuating strength I personally deem it possible he could not be following the original multipliers. I couldn't care less about the fact that it's not spelt word per word, in theory. Either that and/or Trunks was too weakened from the previous fight to such a degree he could put up a fight against base Black, which looks pretty safe given that Vegeta only comments that the transformed Black was well beyond Trunks' level -- and they simply never fought "Super Saiyan vs. Super Saiyan" for "a long time", like Trunks implies. In which case, Black just grows in strength and eventually far surpasses Goku. I mean, his SS2 gradually gains the sterngth to trade blows on equal terms with SSB Vegeta: meaning that he's either approaching the power of Rosé, that the drain of SSB is the problem or most likely both things. Besides, I'm 90% sure the "he powered up so much he didn't need Super Saiyan" infodump is limited to the anime.
Most importantly, this is a matter of context. It's absolutely obvious that Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be equalish in Blue, and this doesn't sound right at all if Vegeta is, randomly, some hundreds of times stronger than Goku in base. Plus, I fail to understand how it's supposed to connect itself to the anime, to be honest I remembered, it was my idea that Toyo never intended for base Goku to surpass SS3 Gotenks.

3. I still don't see how anything of this makes much sense. As far as intepretations go, I'd say Yo! at best reinforces the fact that Gotenks is still above Goku, at worst it lacks any clear comparison. Aka is literally helpless against base Gotenks, who trounces him with regular attacks in the anime rendition and is barely taking the fight seriously; Goku is dead serious and intends to stop Aka because he's about to destroy the planet; instead of attacking him in base like Gotenks did goes straight to Super Saiyan. At most this somewhat weakens the idea he could do what he did in base form, unlike base Gotenks who plays and clowns with the enemy.

Goku also thinks that base Goten and base Trunks would be "good training" for a foe "about as strong Freeza". Now, when you reflect about it Goku never saw any form of Freeza bar his Final Form and, per the Daizenshuu, in the beginning of the Buu Saga, Goten is not that far off from Gohan. Which means Goten and Trunks need to be close to Freeza in base form. Gotenks is "many times the power of Goten and Trunks" per the SEG (many "tens of times" if you think the info from the GT Perfect Files on Gogeta applies). Assuming Goku is still below Freeza in base form when BOG begins, this also makes Goku > Gotenks in Yo! impossible.

Content and tone, this is kinda one of those exchanges that make me go "I'll never understand this fanbase" to be honest. Lots and *gasps* lots of words indirectly required of someone, to clarify and explain intuitive concepts and to counter some "you got it all wrong, dude" premise that doesn't even remotely hold up after a quick perusal. Color me displeased.

[lord turbo]

1. Vegeta has visible sparks against Black. So does Black (I'm leaving aside Black because we have no precedents for him using any form, but if I had to go off what I know, I'd say he was a SS2). And no, since every time Super Saiyan Vegeta was drawn before by Toyotaro he never had the sparks I won't even consider the possibility he has the sparks of a SS2 as a Super Saiyan. In fact, I don't even remotely understand what's your issue with naturally assuming Vegeta is a SS2.

Like I said before so does Black, if going by aura which both are identical then I'd say they are both SSJ2, but Black clearly has the SSJ1 Goku hair style so going by just aura effects isn't the end of all be all unless noted on-screen they are in said form such as Goku vs Trunks where he used SSJ2, but had the same hairstyle as SSJ (anime) for example which is why I have Vegeta as SSJ, but it really doesn't matter since they are bith visially in the same form more or less.

By the way, yes, Goku should be turning Super Saiyan 2 in Neko Majin. The fact that other characters generically say "look, as Super Saiyan" doesn't mean much, since Super Saiyan /32 is barely used even in the original manga to differentiate the forms. They're all "Super Saiyan". If one wants to get specifical you can call them Super Saiyan 2, "Super Saiyan who surpassed the limit" or 3 or whatever. Bar Vegito, this is virtually always consistent. But, most importantly, Toyotaro is consistent.

You can tell what form Goku is in by his hair style, however, in Neko Majin Z (strictly drawn and written by Toriyama) has Goku clearly as a SSJ with the SSJ2 aura, same deal happens in the Tarble special so having an aura or not with sparks is optional, not definite post original serilization of DB so Vegeta having sparks or not in his aura is not for certain.

2. Black states that he couldn't control Goku's body and Super Saiyan like he wanted to (either before or after he goes Rosé); since Black is not a regular Saiyan, but some sort of entity that's gradually overwriting Goku's body I simply deem it possible he could not be following the original multipliers. I couldn't care less about the fact that it's not spelt word per word, to be honest.

I'll tell you what, I'm going to reread that arc to give you a proper response since I'm unsure right now.

Either that and/or Trunks was too weakened from the previous fight to such a degree he could put up a fight against base Black, which looks kinda legitimate given that Vegeta only comments about the power of the transformed Black being well beyond Trunks' level in the manga.

Same as above.

It's absolutely obvious that Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be equalish in Blue, and this doesn't sound right at all if Vegeta is, randomly, some hundreds of times stronger than Goku in base. Plus, I fail to understand how it's supposed to connect itself to the anime, to be honest.

Thing is we don't know absolutely jack about the multipliers of SSG/SSJB or if they have any at all in relation to the normal SSJ forms so its entirey possible for Vegeta to be many times stronger than Goku in one individual form, but come out weaker or equal in god form, in fact, if I'm not mistaken SSJB Vegeta at 1/10th his normal full power gets utterly decimated by the same Hit that base/SSJ Goku got the better of yet before the U6 tournament Goku and Vegeta were depicted equalish up until that point in their non-god forms.

3. I still don't see how anything of this makes much sense. As far as intepretations go, I'd say Yo! at best reinforces the fact that Gotenks is still above Goku, at worst it lacks any clear comparison. Aka is literally helpless against base Gotenks, who trounces him with regular attacks in the anime rendition and is barely taking the fight seriously; Goku is dead serious and intends to stop him and instead of attacking him in base like Gotenks did goes straight to Super Saiyan, at most weakening the idea he could do what he did in base form, unlike Gotenks.

Eh? Gotenks is the one that turned SSJ and his punch barely affeced Aka who started using much stronger attacks after that. If Gotenks was so strong in base by all logic his SSJ self should have oneshotted Aka which he never came close to while SSJ Goku did meaning base Goku could have done the same thing to Aka in base that Gotenks did. Also, to keep this short I never thoufht the gap between Gotenks and Goku during the Buu Saga was huge. Majin Buu himself mentions his absorptions are additive so adding someone equal to himself like Gotenks would make him twoce as strong as Gotenks Buu.

Buff Buu (South Kaioshin absorbed) is stronger than Super Buu = SSJ3 Gotenks, but how strong is South Kaioshin? According to East Kaioshin SSJ2 Gohan's greatly suroasses their imagination when talking to Kibito about Gohan's power which means SSJ2 Gohan > South Kaioshin since East Kaioshin and Kibito know how strong South Kaioshin is, he potentially weaker than SSJ Gohan if he was one of the countless Kaioshin they tried to pull the Z-Sword out and failed.

Teen SSJ2 Gohan is consistently stated to be a lot weaker than his kid self which both Goku and Vegeta's SSJ2 forms surpass so at bare minimum SSJ3 Goku should be over 5 times stronger than Kaioshin and he's equal to Kid Buu so adding SK to Kid Buu's power would make him no less than 84% Buff Buu's power meaning SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu are less than 14% syronger tha SSJ3 Goku.

I would imagine 2 years is more than enough time for Goku to exceed such a gap in strength levels by the Tarble special.

Goku also thinks that base Goten and base Trunks would be "good training" for a foe "about as strong Freeza"; Goku never saw any form of Freeza bar his Final Form and, per the Daizenshuu, in the beginning of the Buu Saga, Goten is not that far off from Gohan. Which means Goten and Trunks are close with Freeza in base form. Gotenks is "many times the power of Goten and Trunks" per the SEG. Assuming Goku is still below Freeza in base form when BOG begins, this also makes Goku > Gotenks in Yo! impossible.

Goku never said that, you must be thinking of an incorrect fan translation, he merely said the kids will be fine which makes more sense considering the kids oneshotted Avo amd Cado with ease in the manga which would ne bizarrer if those two would make good training for the kids, easily crushing ants isn't good training. Actually, Goku saw Freeza's first form when he read Kuririn's mind, bit that's kind of irrelevant since Goku is going by ki level and not appearance and he sensed all of Freeza's increases on Namek.

The Daizenshuu is a great source of information, but is contradicted in the source material when it comes to Goten who's only some vague level behind SSJ teen Gohan and unless I'm mistaken his SSJ2 is leaps and bounds above his SSJ state so yeah, Goten is actually far behind Gohan in power.

I would have to see that many times Goten/Trunks scan from the SEG since I believe the Daizenshiu made a similar, but only several times instead of many times. I ask because in the manga/anime kid Trunks is visibly shown and stated to be unable to handle 150Gs which makes him weigh near 5 tons.

The next chapter after this shows base Goku barely able to handle weighing 40 tons (that's 8 times what base kid Trunks could do) and its mentioned by the SEG it was only very hard for Goku because he was using flight which would make him over 8 times base kid Trunks level.

Speaking of the Daizenshuu it mentions the kids base forms showed Battle Power on par with 18 during their match as Mighty Mask which is true, the kids (well just Trunks) handled anything she threw at them and they ere at a serious disadvantage from the suit hampering their movements.

Also, keep in mind that even a holding back 18 fodderized SSJ Trunks and SSJ Vegeta, two characters much stronger than Freeza. Hell, its even telling that the kids are already aware how strong 18 is in mentioning she used to be stronger than their dads before the time chamber training, yet feel fine facing her in base form which confirmed by the Daizenshuu base kids > SSJ Vegeta/Trunks > Freeza.

It also doesn't hurt that Vegeta mentioned he could still win the tournament without SSJ despite knowing full well 18 and Piccolo are there which wouldn't make sense if he was still weaker than Freeza in his base form at that point in time. There's also thay scene at the look out when the kids go full power Piccolo os visibly staggered backwards while base Goku is completely unphased and indifferent to the same power implying base Goku > Piccolo and that infamous Dabura's line that suggest the same.

[LowRyder2005]

but Black clearly has the SSJ1 Goku hair style

Technically, we don't know what's supposed to be Black's SS2 hairstyle compared to his SS1 hairstyle and if it's supposed to be the exact same of Goku's. Might also be an oversight, since it's clear Toyotaro always drew Super Saiyans without sparks. That is because, for the third or fourth time, there's not a single Super Saiyan 1 to be found with them in the rest of the manga.
By the way, I'm fine if you want to think they both can't be anything other than SS1 for some bizarre reason. It was your claim that there was nothing "even remotely suggesting they were SS2" that was downright ridiculous, and which I take issue with.

You can tell what form Goku is in by his hair style, however, in Neko Majin Z (strictly drawn and written by Toriyama) has Goku clearly as a SSJ with the SSJ2 aura, same deal happens in the Tarble special so having an aura or not with sparks is optional, not definite post original serilization of DB so Vegeta having sparks or not in his aura is not for certain.

Goku literally has the sparks for one second even in the Yo! manga you keep referencing (when he's transforming, they are nowhere to be found when he stays in the form in every single other panel), has no sparks in the anime and the art wasn't even Toyotaro's, who - again - never designed SS Vegeta, SS Goku or any other Super Saiyan with the sparks.

According to East Kaioshin SSJ2 Gohan's greatly suroasses their imagination when talking to Kibito about Gohan's power which means SSJ2 Gohan > South Kaioshin since East Kaioshin and Kibito know how strong South Kaioshin is, he potentially weaker than SSJ Gohan if he was one of the countless Kaioshin they tried to pull the Z-Sword out and failed.

This also doesn't make any sense: Kaioshin's words are simply in reference to the fact that Super Saiyans were stronger than expected and incredible for mortals. You do remember East Kaioshin also witnessed Fat Buu and Kid Buu, who are both above SS2 Gohan, right? They can already "imagine" individuals as strong as Kid Buu, which means SS2 isn't "unfathomable" in general. It's only unfathomable that a "human" possessed that kind of power.

Thing is we don't know absolutely jack about the multipliers of SSG/SSJB or if they have any at all in relation to the normal SSJ forms so its entirey possible for Vegeta to be many times stronger than Goku in one individual form, but come out weaker or equal in god form, in fact, if I'm not mistaken SSJB Vegeta at 1/10th his normal full power gets utterly decimated by the same Hit that base/SSJ Goku got the better of yet before the U6 tournament Goku and Vegeta were depicted equalish up until that point in their non-god forms.

Vegeta has less than 10% of his power, which could also be 1, 2, 5% for all we know. Just wanna stress that this of going "off the hairstyle over the sparks for Black" is leading you to think that Super Saiyan Blue for Goku and Vegeta works in a fundamentally different fashion. That's all saying, as far as straigthforward and intuitive your outlook is.

Eh? Gotenks is the one that turned SSJ and his punch barely affeced Aka who started using much stronger attacks after that. If Gotenks was so strong in base by all logic his SSJ self should have oneshotted Aka which he never came close to while SSJ Goku did meaning base Goku could have done the same thing to Aka in base that Gotenks did.

The problem with your statement is that at least Gotenks is suppressed (probably Goku is as well). First off, Aka is weaker than base Gotenks, since base Gotenks absolutely destroys him even with simple Wolf Fangs and Volleyball Fists -- this already means that the SS Gotenks you see for some seconds needs to heavily suppress himself not to kill Aka. And if he's suppressed, you cannot draw any comparison between him and Goku.

When Goku takes the matter into his hands he's simply trying more seriously than him since Aka is now a danger to the planet and he only gets a chance because everyone else is too preoccupied doing damage control. Now, if Goku was so above Gotenks, who's above Aka in BASE FORM it would be easier to think he could've punched and defeated Aka in base form, which he however doesn't. That was, chiefly, my point.
Besides, almost surely no one is trying to kill Aka, given the overall happy-go-lucky tone of the special and the considerations above. They probably just want to give him a beating and hope he leaves the Earth or something.

It also doesn't hurt that Vegeta mentioned he could still win the tournament without SSJ despite knowing full well 18 and Piccolo are there which wouldn't make sense if he was still weaker than Freeza in his base form at that point in time. There's also thay scene at the look out when the kids go full power Piccolo os visibly staggered backwards while base Goku is completely unphased and indifferent to the same power implying base Goku > Piccolo and that infamous Dabura's line that suggest the same.

... Just for the record, Vegeta referencing that his "superior position won't change" can simply be in reference to his superior position among the Saiyans who can't transform (and assuming he's at a disadvantage, he could either be forgetting or counting to dispose of Piccolo and #18 with some other tactic; since he's a very big ego in the first place). By the way, SS2 Majin Vegeta and SS2 Kid Gohan are heavily implied to belong to a similar tier of strength, with Vegeta possessing some appreciable edge... and if they're now above Piccolo in base, it sounds kind of hard to believe unless you think Gohan went on to surpass Semi-Perfect Cell in base form or something. But anyway, since you're also making this an equally out-of-place debate on the Buu Arc and base Saiyan vs. Freeza, you're very welcome to create a thread in the In-Universe section instead of making an off-topic essay here.

The Daizenshuu is a great source of information, but is contradicted in the source material when it comes to Goten who's only some vague level behind SSJ teen Gohan and unless I'm mistaken his SSJ2 is leaps and bounds above his SSJ state so yeah, Goten is actually far behind Gohan in power.

Oh, great, now some "Daizenshuu" contradicts my headcanon, so I'm just gonna ignore it and feed you my own headcanon. Even assuming one wanted to accept the idea that the base Saiyans were above Piccolo, by the exact same mileage you'd only find statements supporting Goten being close to at least the initial Gohan in power under equal forms, both in the manga and the guidebooks; plus a careful read of the Buu saga and the implications of where Gogeta and Buutenks would stand in power makes the kids fairly close to Goku and Vegeta in the end, never mind when they multiply their power by fusing.

For or all your mixing of sources and stuff, you probably missed that Goku says just that a foe as strong as Freeza will be "perfect for the kids" in the anime version (which the manga is adapted from, by the way; one is 2008 and the other is 2009).

P.S. I only glanced at the rest of the post, but I'm not gonna waste more time in searching the sources/ images for you. I think I made it clear that I'm finding this entire exchange bloated, pedantic and just pretty darn stupid content-wise. This is what you should be looking for:

The anime guide DBZ Son Goku Densetsu says Gotenks has "many times" the power of Goten/Trunks on their own.

The SEG: Story Guide describes Fusion as giving birth to a warrior that has "multiplied" the two's power together.

GT Perfect File Vol.2 says SSj4 Gogeta "perhaps" has "many tens of times" the power of a single Super Saiyan 4.

[lord turbo]

Technically, we don't know what's supposed to be Black's SS2 hairstyle compared to his SS1 hairstyle and if it's supposed to be the exact same of Goku's. Might also be an oversight, since it's clear Toyotaro always drew Super Saiyans without sparks. That is because, for the third or fourth time, there's not a single Super Saiyan 1 to be found with them in the rest of the manga.
By the way, I'm fine if you want to think they both can't be anything other than SS1 for some bizarre reason. It was your claim that there was nothing "even remotely suggesting they were SS2" that was downright ridiculous, and which I take issue with.

We do actually since its Goku's body he's using so it would be exactly the same since none of his forms except SSJR (which is explained why it looks that way) look or act any different than the other saiyans forms. Black is clearly a regular SSJ and stated as such by Vegeta, Trunks, and Goku, not SSJ2. He looks the same as SSJ Goku with the SSJ2 aura as shown in this scan (https://imgur.com/a/xi70I). Also, I never said Black or Vegeta can't be anything more than SSJ, they surely can, what I'm saying in this instance is that there is nothing stating Black or Vegeta are using anything more than SSJ which the dialogue supports or visually since they both have the same identical aura despite knowing for a fact one only has SSJ (something mentioned in Toriyama's note of SSJ and SSJR). Anytime it would be good, but not in this example against Black since he muddles the issue, there's I really don't think there is anything downright ridiculous about my stance in regards to that.

Goku literally has the sparks for one second even in the Yo! manga you keep referencing (when he's transforming, they are nowhere to be found when he stays in the form in every single other panel), has no sparks in the anime and the art wasn't even Toyotaro's, who - again - never designed SS Vegeta, SS Goku or any other Super Saiyan with the sparks.

https://imgur.com/a/A8cbX

He has the SSJ2 aura both times he transforms in the same manga where Gotenks has none when he transforms despite Goku clearly being SSJ in both instances...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv7CPrZg2KA

The anime shows the SSJ2 aura sparks as well for SSJ (even though you falsely claimed he didn't). However, this is an odd nitpick since my whole point was both Vegeta and Black are in the same forms yet Vegeta is considerably stronger than Black meaning his base form would also be equally stronger than Black in base form which is stronger than SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, re-reading the manga Trunks clearly states Black is much stronger than him and this is in reference to as of now/currently, not back then when he first showed up, it doesn't hurt Black was holding back against Trunks since he showed much higher power against a much stronger adversary (Vegeta).

Its also mentioned Black hasn't used SSJ in a long time and is only now doing so because he feels pressured meaning all the times he beats Trunks recently was in base form and base form alone so Vegeta commenting he could see how Trunks was no match for Black after fighting his SSJ form is meaningless since he's making a generalization, not some specification which we don't need since its visually and verbally shown base Black > SSJ2 Trunks. Also, keep in mind Trunks was looking ragged in the beginning due entirely to base Black to begin with so I have no idea what your point is in referencing that. Lastly, Black mentioned Vegeta's level was ideal for pushing him to near death to allow the increased ability effect of the saiyans, something he was unable to attain from SSJ2 Trunks, even in base form due to being way stronger than him.

Finally, Black makes zero reference in his SSJ forms being different or unable to use the boosts the same as Goku and Vegeta. What you misinterpreted was Black saying he had same issue Ginyu had when he stole Goku's body. He simply lacked the knowledge on how to use the stolen body's full potential and had to learn over time how to do so, not that SSJ forms and multipliers were lower than normal, it was through the near death power up saiyan trait that he gained knowledge on how to use SSJ and eventually SSJR (His SSJB).

This also doesn't make any sense: Kaioshin's words are simply in reference to the fact that Super Saiyans were stronger than expected and incredible for mortals. You do remember East Kaioshin also witnessed Fat Buu and Kid Buu, who are both above SS2 Gohan, right? They can already "imagine" individuals as strong as Kid Buu, which means SS2 isn't "unfathomable" in general. It's only unfathomable that a "human" possessed that kind of power.

How so, both Kibito and Shin already witnessed how strong SSJs and SSJ2 teen Gohan were at the tournament, Kibito specifically talks about how unfathomable it is when healing a drained Gohan so its not in reference to that as it would be redundant. Shin is talking about not only Gohan, but Vegeta and Goku's power as well to Kibito in comparison to Buu meaning minus Majin Buu (Who's the strongest being in the entire universe from their point of view) no one else in the history of the universe to their knowledge and understanding possesses power anywhere near close to the SSJ2s. The Z-sword also potentially shows South Kaioshin may not even match SSJ Gohan.

Vegeta has less than 10% of his power, which could also be 1, 2, 5% for all we know. Just wanna stress that this of going "off the hairstyle over the sparks for Black" is leading you to think that Super Saiyan Blue for Goku and Vegeta works in a fundamentally different fashion. That's all saying, as far as straigthforward and intuitive your outlook is.

You're being rather pedantic since if it was anywhere near those percentages Whis would just say that instead of misleading information. Its less than 10%, but no that far from it either, SSJ Goku fought evenly against the same hit that utterly fodderized SSJB Vegeta meaning SSJ3 Goku going by multipliers is not that far if not already near or above 80% of SSJB Vegeta's full power with SSJG Goku being far beyond that considering the expontial gap between SSJ3 and SSJG, despite Goku and Vegeta depicted seemingly on par with each other in their non-god forms...

The problem with your statement is that at least Gotenks is suppressed (probably Goku is as well). First off, Aka is weaker than base Gotenks, since base Gotenks absolutely destroys him even with simple Wolf Fangs and Volleyball Fists -- this already means that the SS Gotenks you see for some seconds needs to heavily suppress himself not to kill Aka. And if he's suppressed, you cannot draw any comparison between him and Goku.

Hold on a second there I'm talking about the manga version by Toriyama and Naho specifically since Toriyama said he thought the anime was weak in some areas to which he thought the manga by him and Naho was superior in comparison. In the manga base Gotenks powers up and performs the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack (A move shown to be far stronger than Gotenks himself) merely staggers Aka somewhat before cranking it up to SSJ and doing little to no lasting damage on Aka who had yet to reveal his full strength. If you want to claim Gotenks was suppressed then I can claim the same for Goku as well meaning the the end results would still be the same, Goku stronger than Gotenks and at worst equal to him two years post Buu Saga.

When Goku takes the matter into his hands he's simply trying more seriously than him since Aka is now a danger to the planet and he only gets a chance because everyone else is too preoccupied doing damage control. Now, if Goku was so above Gotenks, who's above Aka in BASE FORM it would be easier to think he could've punched and defeated Aka in base form, which he however doesn't. That was, chiefly, my point.
Besides, almost surely no one is trying to kill Aka, given the overall happy-go-lucky tone of the special and the considerations above. They probably just want to give him a beating and hope he leaves the Earth or something.

By the same token if Gotenks was strong enough to beat Aka into submission in base form he would have done so instead of being insufficient to get the job done as a SSJ. I don't think Gotenks or Goku were trying to kill Aka so both were holding back, yet Goku holding back is shown far more effective than Gotenks holding back.

... Just for the record, Vegeta referencing that his "superior position won't change" can simply be in reference to his superior position among the Saiyans who can't transform (and assuming he's at a disadvantage, he could either be forgetting or counting to dispose of Piccolo and #18 with some other tactic; since he's a very big ego in the first place).

That makes little to no sense considering its in reference to winning the tournament itself which he already knows 18 and Piccolo are in as well, he even gets mad when Goten breaks the no-SSJ rule. Vegeta has a big ego, but he's not stupid, he knows how strong he and others are and admits such when he's aware of the facts, he's not going to falsely claim something if its not true. Also, this is not DBS, but original DBZ where raw power trumps tactics.

By the way, SS2 Majin Vegeta and SS2 Kid Gohan are heavily implied to belong to a similar tier of strength, with Vegeta possessing some appreciable edge... and if they're now above Piccolo in base, it sounds kind of hard to believe unless you think Gohan went on to surpass Semi-Perfect Cell in base form or something. But anyway, since you're also making this an equally out-of-place debate on the Buu Arc and base Saiyan vs. Freeza, you're very welcome to create a thread in the In-Universe section instead of making an off-topic essay here.

When you say same tier are you saying same strength even though its flat out said both Goku and Majin Vegeta are stronger than Kid Gohan's SSJ2? Besides, there' nothing hard to believe when DBS clearly visually and verbally mentions base Gohan > Piccolo during RoF and this is weakened out of shape rusty Gohan again meaning he was much stronger than Piccolo as a kid during the Cell Games even in base form, the same rusty base Gohan is shown in the same tier as base Vegeta/Goku so...

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about off topic, everything I said is in reference to Gotenks and Goku being compared to Vegeta, you're the one that went off topic with Freeza and base saiyans which had little to do with what I was discussing.

Oh, great, now some "Daizenshuu" contradicts my headcanon, so I'm just gonna ignore it and feed you my own headcanon. Even assuming one wanted to accept the idea that the base Saiyans were above Piccolo, by the exact same mileage you'd only find statements supporting Goten being close to at least the initial Gohan in power under equal forms, both in the manga and the guidebooks; plus a careful read of the Buu saga and the implications of where Gogeta and Buutenks would stand in power makes the kids fairly close to Goku and Vegeta in the end, never mind when they multiply their power by fusing.

Look, I'm not going to waste time arguing an extremely obvious, blatant and straight out incorrect assumption. SSJ Goten is no where near close or a match for SSJ2 Gohan and I'm not going to remotely entertain such an absurd notion when the manga or anime clearly shows that not to be the case. I will also not pretend the kids are anywhere close to Vegeta/Goku when I showed clear undisputed evidence of base Goku being bare minimum 8 times base kid Trunks own level from the manga/anime. Source material trumps incorrect guidebooks/supplement material.

For or all your mixing of sources and stuff, you probably missed that Goku says just that a foe as strong as Freeza will be "perfect for the kids" in the anime version (which the manga is adapted from, by the way; one is 2008 and the other is 2009).

Even going by the anime that line would still be nonsensical since the base kids were capable of beating Avo and Cado in their base forms, excuse me if I find it hard for foes barely even 2% the kids full power to be perfect opponents to fight.

P.S. I only glanced at the rest of the post, but I'm not gonna waste more time in searching the sources/ images for you. I think I made it clear that I'm finding this entire exchange bloated, pedantic and just pretty darn stupid content-wise. This is what you should be looking for:

I'm puzzled why I should search for something that not only do I not know where to look, but you're the one making the claim in the first place, you want me to do your homework for you? Despite the passive-aggressive and overly condescending tone I do appreciate you at least made the effort to bring forth evidence.

[Bullza]

The newest manga chapter was translated by Viz now.

Not sure if there's much more to say about it but yes Quitela does say he beat Beerus at arm wrestling though Beerus says he wouldn't lose in an actual hand to hand fight. Goku says that he uses his full power when Beerus fires that blast at the group and Geene says that Sidra "saved them" by making that barrier. So a bunch of them might have died right then and there if not for him.

Oh and Champa says he hasn't trained for decades.

[Hugo Boss]

The newest manga chapter was translated by Viz now.

Not sure if there's much more to say about it but yes Quitela does say he beat Beerus at arm wrestling though Beerus says he wouldn't lose in an actual hand to hand fight. Goku says that he uses his full power when Beerus fires that blast at the group and Geene says that Sidra "saved them" by making that barrier. So a bunch of them might have died right then and there if not for him.

Oh and Champa says he hasn't trained for decades.

Thank you for the info. Viz isn’t available in my location.

So, Quitela might have an edge in physical strength, but Beerus may move more efficiently.

[LowRyder2005]

We do actually since its Goku's body he's using so it would be exactly the same since none of his forms except SSJR (which is explained why it looks that way) look or act any different than the other saiyans forms. Black is clearly a regular SSJ and stated as such by Vegeta, Trunks, and Goku, not SSJ2. He looks the same as SSJ Goku with the SSJ2 aura as shown in this scan (https://imgur.com/a/xi70I). Also, I never said Black or Vegeta can't be anything more than SSJ, they surely can, what I'm saying in this instance is that there is nothing stating Black or Vegeta are using anything more than SSJ which the dialogue supports or visually since they both have the same identical aura despite knowing for a fact one only has SSJ (something mentioned in Toriyama's note of SSJ and SSJR). Anytime it would be good, but not in this example against Black since he muddles the issue, there's I really don't think there is anything downright ridiculous about my stance in regards to that.

Oh, please. You started saying there was nothing implying "he was a Super Saiyan 2", then you backpedaled and just said there's some arbitrary rule about hair bangs being instead 100% definite. I could just do the same and say that since SS2 Goku in the anime with sparks and bangs is called "Super Saiyan", neither bang nor sparks are definite. If you said "I think Black is a SS" I'd have no issue. I'd still think Vegeta is a SS2 (I mean, with Vegeta: how would you even avoid conflating the forms all the time since there are only the sparks as cues?) and Black was probably a SS2 as well.

But in general this is the kind of in-universe reaching for hairstyle as the visual cues of the author that's still absurd. It's perfectly possible Toyotaro simply didn't want to draw Black like what for whatever reason, that he thinks he should have a different hairstyle than Goku, or something. It's otherwise crystal clear he has always drawn Super Saiyans without sparks, so at most there was "nothing suggesting Vegeta was a simple SS1".

He has the SSJ2 aura both times he transforms in the same manga where Gotenks has none when he transforms despite Goku clearly being SSJ in both instances...

And he has no aura in all the other panels, unlike Black? I won't even start with how it's a different artist altogether...?

The anime shows the SSJ2 aura sparks as well for SSJ (even though you falsely claimed he didn't). However, this is an odd nitpick since my whole point was both Vegeta and Black are in the same forms yet Vegeta is considerably stronger than Black meaning his base form would also be equally stronger than Black in base form which is stronger than SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, re-reading the manga Trunks clearly states Black is much stronger than him and this is in reference to as of now/currently, not back then when he first showed up, it doesn't hurt Black was holding back against Trunks since he showed much higher power against a much stronger adversary (Vegeta).

I was thinking of the final time he transforms (and he hasn't sparks at all in the anime, sparks for the panel of the transformation in the manga and NO sparks in every other panel). As for the anime, I'd say he was a SS2 or something close to it; regular Super Saiyans, basically every other time in the original depictions of Toriyama and Toyotaro do not have sparks.
As for the rest, you're just mixing anime and manga like you did for three posts or so. In the manga base Black is at most seen superior to a Trunks who's clearly battered, in the anime it's said he doesn't need to transform; Vegeta comments only after that the transformed Black's power is something Trunks can't handle after fighting him a little bit. There's actually nothing definite about Black being above SS3 Gotenks in the manga.

Trunks has also seen the transformed Black, but he also knows Black is stronger than him in base form, so of course he'd say Black is the stronger one regardless.

Its also mentioned Black hasn't used SSJ in a long time and is only now doing so because he feels pressured meaning all the times he beats Trunks recently was in base form and base form alone so Vegeta commenting he could see how Trunks was no match for Black after fighting his SSJ form is meaningless since he's making a generalization, not some specification which we don't need since its visually and verbally shown base Black > SSJ2 Trunks. Also, keep in mind Trunks was looking ragged in the beginning due entirely to base Black to begin with so I have no idea what your point is in referencing that. Lastly, Black mentioned Vegeta's level was ideal for pushing him to near death to allow the increased ability effect of the saiyans, something he was unable to attain from SSJ2 Trunks, even in base form due to being way stronger than him.

Which is just another plethora of odd logical jump of yours.

- It simply means Black didn't transform "for a long time". They could have fought in base the last time or simply not fought for a long time SS vs. SS.
- Vegeta's level being "enough to push him" just means Vegeta is stronger than Trunks, which again tells you nothing about Vegeta and Gotenks.
- Black should obviously be in base since he hasn't transformed for a long time (and it'd be a odd choice of words if Trunks meant the day before). However, you literally have no proof base Black did that to SS2 Trunks since the fight happens entirely off-screen. If Trunks already knows Black is superior to him at any form, why should we automatically assume he always transforms in the first place? I'm fairly convinced he was simply trying to escape Black and ended up taking some blows from base Black. Afterwards he transforms as he basically ends up bloodlusted because of Mai, of course.

Finally, Black makes zero reference in his SSJ forms being different or unable to use the boosts the same as Goku and Vegeta. What you misinterpreted was Black saying he had same issue Ginyu had when he stole Goku's body. He simply lacked the knowledge on how to use the stolen body's full potential and had to learn over time how to do so, not that SSJ forms and multipliers were lower than normal, it was through the near death power up saiyan trait that he gained knowledge on how to use SSJ and eventually SSJR (His SSJB).

You have this huge problem that you keep acting as if your intepretations are better than anyone else's when they're just cluttered by your own confirmation bias and poor judgement. Black says he had problems controlling Goku's body and using Super Saiyan before he discovered Zenkai, he never said he also learnt to control Goku's body entirely (if yes, I'd personally be inclined to believe wouldn't be saying he still is "overwriting his cells or something"). Being "unable to use Super Saiyan in the capacity he wanted to" also doesn't automatically mean he couldn't use Super Saiyan at all.

So no, I didn't misinterpret anything, and this idea you need to disprove what's nothing more than a personal stance I had brought up simply to clarify my personal position is again part of why this conversation is barely bearable.

How so, both Kibito and Shin already witnessed how strong SSJs and SSJ2 teen Gohan were at the tournament, Kibito specifically talks about how unfathomable it is when healing a drained Gohan so its not in reference to that as it would be redundant. Shin is talking about not only Gohan, but Vegeta and Goku's power as well to Kibito in comparison to Buu meaning minus Majin Buu (Who's the strongest being in the entire universe from their point of view) no one else in the history of the universe to their knowledge and understanding possesses power anywhere near close to the SSJ2s. The Z-sword also potentially shows South Kaioshin may not even match SSJ Gohan.

I explained it above already: you tried to say "since Gohan's power is unfathomable, it means it should surpass South Kaioshin's" -- the implication obviously being "well, since it's unfathomable, they couldn't IMAGINE such power at all, meaning they have never seen ANYONE as strong as Super Saiyan 1/2 Gohan".
Now, East Kaioshin has seen Buu and know South Kai, Kibito at least has a grasp of how fearsome Buu's power is and may or may have not have known South Kai.

Since Kibito looks to be the matter of contention to you:
- Was Kibito alive at the time? He knows of Buu's power = Gohan's power is fathomable.
- Was Kibito not born yet at the time? Since the South Kaioshin kicks the bucket before, he doesn't know South Kaioshin's power either.

The only way for your idea to possibly work is to think Kibito somehow knows South Kaioshin but has second-hand knowledge about Buu's power.
In general, it's obviously a hyperbole. They also know Dabra's power, who isn't that far off from Gohan's power himself? Or are we supposed to think that there's a huge difference in power from the Dabra they knew and the Dabra they see at Babidi?

But now that I re-read the entire point you're basically already conceding it's not literally unfathomable, since you're indirectly admitting they can fathom Buu's power. So, yeah.
Besides, while I don't know why Kid Buu absorbed South Kaioshin in the first place, but since every other time it happened when he was in some sort of danger I'd say there's a decent chance South Kaioshin's strength was rivaling Kid Buu's.

You're being rather pedantic since if it was anywhere near those percentages Whis would just say that instead of misleading information. Its less than 10%, but no that far from it either, SSJ Goku fought evenly against the same hit that utterly fodderized SSJB Vegeta meaning SSJ3 Goku going by multipliers is not that far if not already near or above 80% of SSJB Vegeta's full power with SSJG Goku being far beyond that considering the expontial gap between SSJ3 and SSJG, despite Goku and Vegeta depicted seemingly on par with each other in their non-god forms...

I'm not being pedantic, or at least not gratuitously so: "he lost more than 90% of his power" means just that. Literally, it's not an "he was left with almost 10%" like you're claiming, which'd probably, semantically, indicate some value relatively close to 10%. He could have said 1%, 2%, "almost all of his power" and the scene would have worked the same. The rest is again a bunch personal interpretations. Do note that in the manga we also don't know how much SSG and Blue surpass the regular forms in general, as no comparison is drawn between a Fusion of Goku and Vegeta and God in the first place.

Hold on a second there I'm talking about the manga version by Toriyama and Naho specifically since Toriyama said he thought the anime was weak in some areas to which he thought the manga by him and Naho was superior in comparison. In the manga base Gotenks powers up and performs the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack (A move shown to be far stronger than Gotenks himself) merely staggers Aka somewhat before cranking it up to SSJ and doing little to no lasting damage on Aka who had yet to reveal his full strength. If you want to claim Gotenks was suppressed then I can claim the same for Goku as well meaning the the end results would still be the same, Goku stronger than Gotenks and at worst equal to him two years post Buu Saga.

First off, Toriyama disliking it doesn't mean the anime isn't the main source. Secondly, its continuity is questionable. Thirdly, the manga for the most abridges some stuff but it's otherwise A PANEL BY PANEL transposition with very minor differences, so your stance looks extremely personal/political to begin with. With that being said...

In the second bolded part, again you're not making sense at all. I exactly wanted you to conclude Goku and Gotenks were suppressed to an unknown degree: we don't know how much suppressed one or the other was, meaning their feats cannot be compared. The only thing changing is the attitude: Goku's probably taking things more seriously than Gotenks. Anything more than that is speculating for the sake of speculation.

By the same token if Gotenks was strong enough to beat Aka into submission in base form he would have done so instead of being insufficient to get the job done as a SSJ. I don't think Gotenks or Goku were trying to kill Aka so both were holding back, yet Goku holding back is shown far more effective than Gotenks holding back.

I think Gotenks is just transforming for show, given how showy and silly his act is in the first place. In general, I still stress you're trying to take a fight that's obviously not meant to be taken that seriously by anyone (you nor the actual characters) up until (perhaps) the very end.
Still, since you're already conceding that both Gotenks and Goku are suppressed - which was obvious - this exchange has become even more irrelevant than what it was.

That makes little to no sense considering its in reference to winning the tournament itself which he already knows 18 and Piccolo are in as well, he even gets mad when Goten breaks the no-SSJ rule. Vegeta has a big ego, but he's not stupid, he knows how strong he and others are and admits such when he's aware of the facts, he's not going to falsely claim something if its not true. Also, this is not DBS, but original DBZ where raw power trumps tactics.

I still don't see why it wouldn't a legitimate interpretation of his superior position being among Saiyans and that he's just not thinking about the idea of anyone else at that particular moment. If not, Vegeta is also the most prideful and egotistical character in the show at that point and there are ring-out rules in the tournament. It's not a fight to the death, and he could simply be hoping to overcome his disadvantage with some way to ring out #18 and Piccolo. Bad judge perhaps; but Vegeta is also a bad judge all the time in DB. I honestly can't care less if you don't like this intepretation, as yours is still as good as any.

When you say same tier are you saying same strength even though its flat out said both Goku and Majin Vegeta are stronger than Kid Gohan's SSJ2? Besides, there' nothing hard to believe when DBS clearly visually and verbally mentions base Gohan > Piccolo during RoF and this is weakened out of shape rusty Gohan again meaning he was much stronger than Piccolo as a kid during the Cell Games even in base form, the same rusty base Gohan is shown in the same tier as base Vegeta/Goku so...

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about off topic, everything I said is in reference to Gotenks and Goku being compared to Vegeta, you're the one that went off topic with Freeza and base saiyans which had little to do with what I was discussing.

Nope. I made a reference, you're the one who dished out enough content for half a dozen of different thread about the usual Buu saga discussions.

Piccolo compares SS2 Vegeta's power to SS2 Kid Gohan's in the beginning and adds that he's somewhat stronger than that. DBS doesn't neither visually nor unambiguously proves base Gohan > Piccolo in ROF: the only thing concrete you have is characters looking at base Gohan and saying he's probably the most troublesome, but you have multiple instances of characters deducing someone's dormant power (Ginyu vs. Goku, Freeza vs. Goku, etc.), and Gohan's dormant power is obviously above everyone else's, even though he can't output it like he wants to. But anyway, you're probably forgetting a weighted Piccolo is swatted by a somewhat serious Tagoma, while Ginyu-Tagoma (the one facing off against Gohan) is nowhere as serious and is taking his time humoring a "weakling" in his own words like Gohan.

Much later a rested and unweighted Piccolo - who at some point the past got stronger, but could also mean he never faced Gohan at full power up until that point - who has at most spent time re-teaching the basics (per Gohan's own words he wasn't even done yet) to a Gohan who isn't even as strong as his Cell Game arc self (meaning that he was much weaker than that in ROF), stomps both Super Saiyan and at least rivals Super Saiyan 2 Gohan; so the contention is very debatable in general.

Look, I'm not going to waste time arguing an extremely obvious, blatant and straight out incorrect assumption. SSJ Goten is no where near close or a match for SSJ2 Gohan and I'm not going to remotely entertain such an absurd notion when the manga or anime clearly shows that not to be the case. I will also not pretend the kids are anywhere close to Vegeta/Goku when I showed clear undisputed evidence of base Goku being bare minimum 8 times base kid Trunks own level from the manga/anime. Source material trumps incorrect guidebooks/supplement material.

First off, nope: it's not "source vs. incorrect claim", but "my idea I got from source material vs. some way the guidebooks worded this". It's anything but a direct statement, since I could just as easily claim strength and ki do not scale off in a 1:1 ratio.
Secondly, I wasn't saying SS Goten rivaled SS2 Gohan and I had made it clear in the post above I was reconciling statement and manga with the guidebook talking about rivaling in equal forms. It's clear the manga leaves the reader with the impression that the kids are prodigies and not that far off Gohan straight from the beginning. It's at least said they would catch up fairly quickly; I think I have Goten around 1/6 of Goku's strength in the beginning and 60% Goku's strength post-ROSAT. It's honestly a good way to fit with Buutenks claims that a Metamoran fusion of Gohan and Goku almost surely wouldn't beat him, and his absolute confidence and utmost certainty he's gonna destroy the opponent when he's Buuhan (I follow the assumption Gohan is ssome 50% stronger than Gotenks) and he thinks he might be going to face Gogeta. As you said, "source material trumps incorrect claims". After the ROSAT, the kids almost certainly aren't much weaker than the adults.

Even going by the anime that line would still be nonsensical since the base kids were capable of beating Avo and Cado in their base forms, excuse me if I find it hard for foes barely even 2% the kids full power to be perfect opponents to fight.

Uh... how's that related? The point is that Goku thinks a foe as strong as his idea of Freeza would be a good fight for the kids, this is before regardless of how strong Abo and Kado ultimately are.
Besides, it's pretty funny to read this after a "source material über alles".

I'm puzzled why I should search for something that not only do I not know where to look, but you're the one making the claim in the first place, you want me to do your homework for you? Despite the passive-aggressive and overly condescending tone I do appreciate you at least made the effort to bring forth evidence.

Well, I'm probably being a bit of an ass, but it's because I find this exchange and your attitude to be the equivalent of intellectual Bitcoin mining, a chore in the first place: I feel like you're the typical Dragon Ball fan who gets half of the fact straight from the sources, and then fills the other half with some headcanon-ascended-to-Bible truth-that-obviously-cannot-anything-else. The "quote-by-quote", which clutters the thread, and the nitpicking format, the bloatedness, and the general "this is how it is (when in fact it isn't)" attitude surely doesn't help in the slightest. I'd probably be a little softer if you switched your uncompromising attitude with a more open-minded mindset towards hypotheses, different viewpoints and be more critical towards yourself, but it looks like it'd be a hard task.

Trust me, I like getting verbose myself if there's something interesting to debate about; this exchange however is mostly me trying to get you to reason over illogical passages and claims with pretense of conclusiveness I'm somewhat being forced to address. It doesn't help that part of this less-than-intellectually stimulating discussion thread is not only thronging the thread, but also being cluttered in off-topic, long-winded talk about Yo! and the Buu arc to address what ends up being your two cents on things. 60% of what you said could have been summed up in an "it's only your opinion", 30% is either poor logic or logic leaps, and 10% is stuff you've taken from proper sources.

[Bullza]

Thank you for the info. Viz isn’t available in my location.

So, Quitela might have an edge in physical strength, but Beerus may move more efficiently.

Yeah well when he dodges all their attacks Goku says it's like he's got eyes in the back of his head and Whis says his body can send attacks and can make decisions to dodge them but then Mosco grabs him and Whis says he hasn't perfected it yet.

So I think that goes back to what was mentioned in Resurrection F where he mentioned them training without thinking so there body moved on its own immediately.

[RurrlockGodOfPower]

I've gone and made my own power level list. Going all the way from the beginning up until the Universal Tournament Recruitment (I'm not going to do the actual Tournament of Power itself until it's fully finished as power levels may change). I'm open to hearing feedback. Honestly, there's so much from the series, I know I'm going to miss something so forgive me if I get any details wrong and let me know. Also, for fun, I've decided to include the movies and filler for the hell of it. Might as well go all out Enjoy.

Multipliers

[spoiler]Oozaru (Great Ape) - 10x Base
False Super Saiyan – 25x Base
Super Saiyan - 50x Base
Super Saiyan Grade Two - 75x Base
Super Saiyan Grade Three - 110x Base
Legendary Super Saiyan – 90x Base+ (Power can increase and/or decrease sporadically depending on emotions)
Super Saiyan Two - 100x Base
Super Saiyan Three - 400x Base
Ultimate - 1,500x Base
Saiyan Beyond God – 10,000x Base
Super Saiyan God – 250,000x Base
Super Saiyan Blue – 500,000x Base
Super Saiyan Rose – 50x Base
Super Saiyan Rage - 600,000x Base
Super Saiyan Berserker - 900x Base+ (Power can increase and/or decrease sporadically depending on emotions)
Fusion – (A = B) x 15
Potara – (A + B) x 25
Irregular Potara – (A + B) x 2.5[/spoiler]

Before Dragon Ball

[spoiler]Death of the Kais

Kid Buu
Base: 32,000,000,000
South Kai Absorbed: 96,000,000,000

Majin Buu: 26,000,000,000
Bibidi: 50

South Supreme Kai: 6,000,000,000
Grand Supreme Kai: 3,500,000,000
West Supreme Kai: 2,500,000,000
North Supreme Kai: 2,200,000,000
East Supreme Kai: 1,500,000,000

(Buu has no trouble with the Kais, putting them on the brink of extinction. South Kai comes the closest to putting up a decent struggle, while the East Kai is the youngest and weakest)

Demon War on Earth

Piccolo Daimao: 240
Master Mutaito: 150
Master Roshi: 105
Master Tsuru: 85
Piccolo Daimao’s Sons: 40 – 80
Master Mutaito’s Students: 30 – 60

(Piccolo dominates any fighter on Earth that opposes him. Mutaito sacrifices himself to use the Mafuba to seal the demon away)

Legend of Bardock

Bardock
Base: 3,500
Great Ape: 35,000
Zenkai: 7,000
Sent to Past: 10,000
Super Saiyan: 500,000

Chilled: 105,000
Chilled’s Soldiers: 500 – 1,000

Shugesh
Base: 2,100
Great Ape: 21,000

Borgos
Base: 2,200
Great Ape: 22,000

Fasha
Base: 2,400
Great Ape: 24,000

Tora
Base: 2,500
Great Ape: 25,000

Kanassan Warriors: 6,000 – 10,000

Freezer 1st Form: 530,000
Zarbon: 22,000
Dodoria: 21,000
Dodoria’s Elite: 4,000 – 7,000

King Vegeta: 11,000
Kid Vegeta: 6,000
Nappa: 4,000
Saibamen: 1,200

(I'm going with Toriyama's statements about Bardock being a low-class fighter and thus has a power level weaker than Nappa, who was part of the elite force. But, after a few Zenkai's, Bardock grows in power. Chilled is powerful, but nothing in comparison to Freezer)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Saga Part I

[spoiler]First Quest for the Dragon Balls

Goku
Base: 17
Great Ape: 170

Master Roshi
Base: 35
Full Power: 70

Ox-King: 27
Yamcha: 14
Krillin: 12
Bear Bandit: 11
Chi-Chi: 11
Boss Rabbit: 5

(I feel that Goku should be above a 10 that most guides give him. His feats and power indicate something greater. But, he still has a long way to go before he becomes the strongest)

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku
Base: 40
Tailless: 35
Great Ape: 400

Jackie Chun/Master Roshi
Suppressed: 40
Full Power: 120

Nam: 32
Krillin: 29
Giran: 24
Yamcha: 22
Bacterian: 17
Ranfan: 16

(Goku and Roshi are a class above the rest, although Nam and Krillin show great power. Yamcha has gotten stronger since we first met him, but he can't keep up with the tougher competitors)

The Red Ribbon Army

Goku
Base: 42
Post-Korin Training: 85

Korin: 135
Krillin: 29
Bora: 26

Tao Pai Pai: 68

Battle Jacket Black: 75
Android 8: 60
General Blue: 35
Buyon: 34
Major Metallitron: 33
Ninja Murasaki: 22
Colonel Silver: 21
General White: 10

(Goku sees a huge leap after his training with Korin that takes him from being overwhelmed by Tao to becoming superior, even though it wasn't fully one-sided)

Fortune Teller Baba’s Tournament

Goku: 85
Krillin: 29
Yamcha: 22

Fangs the Vampire: 13
Invisible Man: 15
Bandages the Mummy: 50
Spike the Devil Man: 66.6
Grandpa Gohan: 80

Shu (Robot Suit): 20
Mai (Robot Suit): 20
Pilaf (Robot Suit): 21
Pilaf Fusion Battle Jacket: 61

(Baba's fighters are stated to be each stronger than the last. The Mummy is claimed to be greater than Goku was in the previous tournament, a visual guide to Goku's growth in power)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Saga Part II

[spoiler]The 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku
Suppressed: 100
Full Power: 140

Tien: 140
Jackie Chun/Master Roshi: 135
Master Shen: 120
Krillin: 95
Yamcha: 90
Chiaotzu: 85

King Chappa: 55
Nam: 35
Pamput: 28
Wolf Man: 15

(Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha have increased in power, but Goku and Tien are in a league of their own at this current point in time)

The Great Demon King

Goku
Tired: 90
Zenkai: 142
Ultra-Divine Water: 240

Piccolo Daimao
Old: 190
Youth restored: 240

Tien: 140
Yajirobe: 135

Drum: 180
Tambourine: 120
Cymbal: 40

Kami: 310
Mr Popo: 290

(I know Piccolo's claims about 'half his power', but there's just no way for it to match. Although he needs more than half, he beats Goku within an inch of his life during their first fight. After the Divine Water, Goku uses his wit and determination to win the fight. Drum is just a step below old Piccolo, once again, a visual guide to display Goku's new strength. Kami and Popo are the next step up)

The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku
W/Weights: 272
W/Out Weights: 385

Piccolo: 381
Kami (Shen): 295
Tien: 242
Krillin: 190
Yamcha: 170
Cyborg Tao-Pai-Pai: 155
Chiaotzu: 130
Chi-Chi: 90
King Chappa: 75

(It's between Goku and Piccolo. Even if Kami's power wasn't weakened using Shen's body, he would be no match. Everyone has increased in power. Tien is stronger than King Piccolo was, and embarrasses Cyborg Tao. Krillin and Yamcha can keep up with the assassin, though the same can't be said for Chiaotzu. Chi-Chi proves herself to be quite skilled in combat. Chappa tries his best to improve, but can't keep up with the superhuman fighters) [/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Z Saga Part I

[spoiler]The Dead Zone

Goku
W/Weights: 327
W/Out Weights: 408

Piccolo
W/Weights: 317
W/Out Weights: 402

Garlic Junior
Base: 300
Full Power: 600

Gohan
Base: 1
Enraged: 1,300

Ginger
Base: 210
Full Power: 260

Nicky
Base: 205
Full Power: 250

Sansho
Base: 200
Full Power: 240

Kami: 265
Krillin: 205
Chi-Chi: 90

(All a tad below the start of the Saiyan Saga. Garlic Jr can easily take out Kami, while his buff form can beat Goku and Piccolo one-on-one. But together, they can best him, so he's nowhere near Raditz's level)

Brother of Goku

Goku
W/Weights: 334
W/Out Weights: 416

Piccolo
W/Weights: 322
W/Out Weights: 408

Raditz: 1,500

Gohan
Base: 1
Enraged: 1,307

Farmer: 5

Tien: 250
Krillin: 206
Yamcha: 177
Chiaotzu: 141
Master Roshi: 139
Yajirobe: 135
Chi-Chi: 90

(Most of these are stated in the series so that makes it easy)

The Saiyans Arrive

Goku
Base: 8,200
Kaioken x2: 16,400
Kaioken x3: 24,600
Kaioken x4: 32,800

Vegeta
Base: 18,000
Injured Great Ape: 75,000
Fatigued: 4,500

Gohan
Base: 981
Enraged: 2,800
Injured Great Ape: 7,000

Nappa: 4,000
Saibamen: 1,200

Piccolo: 2,500
Tien: 1,830
Krillin: 1,770
Yamcha: 1,480
Chiaotzu: 610
Yajirobe: 430

(I'm sorry, I need to rant. I like Yajirobe, but there's no way he is stronger than Chiaotzu. Give the little guy credit, at least he trained and actually tried. He should have seen a greater increase in power. Piccolo is the closest to Nappa and actually does some damage, but the Saiyan is too much for them until Goku arrives.)

The World’s Strongest

Goku
Base: 9,000
Kaioken x2: 18,000
Kaioken x3: 27,000
Kaioken x4: 36,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 7,000
W/Out Weights: 8,000

Gohan
Base: 1,525
Enraged: 10,000

Krillin: 1,770
Master Roshi: 540

Dr Wheelo: 35,000
Ebifurya: 7,500
Kishime: 7,000
Misokatsun: 4,300
Bio-Men: 100 (Each)

(Let's face it, the movies are hard to place because of their AU Timeline status. After the Saiyan battle, each member of the Z-fighters have grown stronger, and we see glimpses that Roshi is still keeping up with his training, though he's not on the same level as the others were when the threat of the Saiyans arrived)

The Tree of Might

Goku
Base: 32,000
Kaioken x 10: 320,000

Turles
Base: 30,000
Fruit x1: 600,000
Fruit x2: 900,000

Gohan
Base: 10,000
Great Ape: 100,000

Piccolo: 18,000
Tien: 4,000
Krillin: 4,000
Yamcha: 2,500
Chiaotzu: 1,000

Daiz: 13,000
Amond: 9,100
Cacao: 8,400
Rezun: 7,600
Rakasei: 7,600

(The space pirates overwhelm the Z-fighters, but then Goku makes short work of them all except for Turles. After eating the fruit, not even a Kaioken x10 works)

Lord Slug

Goku
Base: 90,000
False Super Saiyan: 2,250,000
Kaioken x100: 9,000,000

Lord Slug
Old: 50,000
Youth Restored: 500,000
Giant: 5,000,000

Piccolo:
W/Weights: 60,000
W/Out Weights: 75,000

Gohan: 16,000
Krillin: 14,000
Yajirobe: 430
Chi-Chi: 90

Wings: 36,000
Angila: 35,000
Medamatcha: 32,500

Lord Slug Soldiers: 50 – 120 (Varies)

(As this movie was released around the time of the Freezer Saga, and the Super Saiyan debut was approaching, this seems fitting. Lord Slug dominates Goku, although why our hero never used Kaioken until the very end is beyond me)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Z Saga Part II

[spoiler]Namek Under Siege

Goku
Base: 90,000
Kaioken x2: 180,000

Vegeta
Base: 24,000
Zenkai: 30,000
Second Zenkai: 200,000

Nail: 42,000

Gohan
Base: 1,600
Potential Unlocked: 14,000
Potential Growing: 30,000

Krillin
Base: 1,800
Potential Unlocked: 13,000
Potential Growing: 25,000

Captain Ginyu
Base: 120,000
Goku’s Body: 23,000

Jeice: 42,000
Burter: 42,000
Recoome: 40,000
Guldo: 8,500

Zarbon
Base: 22,000
Monster: 30,000

Dodoria: 21,000
Cui: 18,000
Appule: 2,000

Namekian Warriors: 1,000 – 3,000
Freezer’s soldiers: 500 – 2,000

(Again, most of these were stated in the series. The power-ups got ludicrous at this point)

Battle with Freezer

Goku
Base: 3,000,000
Kaioken x10: 30,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
Super Saiyan: 150,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 450,000
Zenkai: 2,250,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 60,000
Fused w/Nail: 1,100,000
W/Out Weights: 1,250,000

Gohan
Base: 200,000
Enraged: 900,000
Further Enraged: 1,600,000

Krillin: 75,000

Freezer
1st Form: 530,000
2nd Form: 1,060,000
3rd Form: 2,120,000
Final Form (Suppressed): 3,000,000
Final Form (50%): 60,000,000
Final Form (70%): 84,000,000
Full Power: 120,000,000

Tien: 60,000
Yamcha: 48,000
Chiaotzu: 14,000

(Vegeta's Zenkai's took him from below Zarbon to a tad above Third Form Freezer. However, he was no match for the tyrant when he reached his final form. With their potential unlocked, Gohan and Krillin's power skyrocketed, Gohan's in particular. Piccolo shows great gains after his training with King Kai but needs to fuse with Nail to stand a chance against Freezer)

Garlic Jr Returns

Gohan
Base: 750,000
Enraged: 2,500,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 1,700,000
W/Out Weights: 2,000,000
Beyond Limits: 2,300,000

Krillin: 85,000

Garlic Junior
Base: 1,000,000
Full Power: 2,000,000

Spice
Base: 430,000
Makyo Star: 860,000

Vinegar
Base: 430,000
Makyo Star: 860,000

Mustard: 430,000
Salt: 430,000

(Krillin is outmatched by the kitchen supplies, so it's up to Gohan and Piccolo to win the day)

History of Trunks

Future Android 17
Suppressed: 110,000,000
Full Power: 250,000,000

Future Android 18: 240,000,000

Future Gohan
Base: 2,000,000
Super Saiyan: 100,000,000

Post 1-Year Training: 2,800,000
Super Saiyan: 140,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 40,000
Post 1-Year Training: 900,000
Super Saiyan: 45,000,000

Post 3-Years Training: 3,200,000
Super Saiyan Future Trunks: 160,000,000

Future Vegeta
Base: 3,000,000
Super Saiyan: 150,000,000

Future Piccolo: 10,000,000
Future Krillin: 175,000
Future Tien: 130,000
Future Yamcha: 75,000
Future Chiaotzu: 30,000

(Though not as strong, the Androids easily kill the Z-fighters after their years of peace. Even with Gohan and Trunks training together, the Androids are toying with them, especially when working together)

Return of Freezer

Mecha Freezer: 140,000,000
King Cold: 95,000,000
King Cold’s soldiers: 200 – 1,000

Future Trunks
Supressed: 5
Base: 3,500,000
Super Saiyan: 175,000,000

Goku
Base: 3,800,000
Super Saiyan: 190,000,000

Piccolo: 2,600,000
Vegeta: 2,600,000
Gohan: 800,000
Krillin: 150,000
Tien: 90,000
Yamcha: 60,000
Chiaotzu: 25,000

(Trunks and Goku best Freezer. The tyrant is stronger than he was on Namek. Although, he still can't read energy so he can't pinpoint Goku's exact power level, and needs his dad to back him up. It's his style to cheat. King Cold is an enigma. If he can transform, then how much of his power increases? And if it can, why did he not change when seeing his son get blown up by a Super Saiyan? I put his full power below Freezer as the son has been stated to be the strongest)

Cooler’s Revenge

Goku
Base: 4,200,000
Kaioken x10: 42,000,000
Kaioken x20: 84,000,000
Super Saiyan: 210,000,000

Cooler
4th Form Suppressed: 5,000,000
4th Form Full Power: 100,000,000
Final Form: 160,000,000

Piccolo: 4,000,000
Gohan: 950,000
Krillin: 250,000

Sauzer: 770,000
Neiz: 663,000
Dore: 685,000

(Z-fighters are training to prepare for the Androids. Cooler isn't as strong as his brother in his fourth form, but in his unique final form, he is the top dog in the family...until Freezer strikes gold)

Return of Cooler

Goku
Base: 5,000,000
Kaioken x20: 100,000,000
Super Saiyan: 250,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan: 250,000,000

Metal Cooler
Base: 220,000,000
Repaired: 440,000,000

Piccolo: 100,000,000
Gohan: 2,500,000
Krillin: 1,200,000

Phsyclopian Guards: 500,000

(Vegeta has caught up with Goku. Metal Cooler gets stronger with each new body and regeneration, it takes the combined effort of the Super Saiyans to win)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Z Saga Part III
[spoiler]Super Android 13

Goku
Base: 5,300,000
Super Saiyan: 265,000,000
Spirit Super Saiyan: 1,265,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 5,400,000
Super Saiyan: 270,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 4,100,000
Super Saiyan Future: 205,000,000

Piccolo: 360,000,000
Gohan: 3,500,000
Krillin: 2,000,000

Android 13
Base: 250,000,000
Super: 600,000,000

Android 14: 175,000,000
Android 15: 175,000,000

(Why the Androids didn't kill Goku when he was in his base, I don't know. When the Saiyans transform, they best the Androids, until 13 goes Super. I put Piccolo's power to the same as when he fuses with Kami)

Attack of the Androids

Goku
Base: 5,500,000
Super Saiyan: 275,000,000
Sick Super Saiyan: 120,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 5,600,000
Super Saiyan: 280,000,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 150,000,000
W/Out Weights: 180,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 4,200,000
Super Saiyan: 210,000,000

Gohan: 4,000,000
Krillin: 2,500,000
Tien: 1,900,000
Yamcha: 1,200,000

Android 19
Base: 60,000,000
Post-Energy: 150,000,000

Dr. Gero
Base: 70,000,000
Post-Energy Absorption: 140,000,000

Android 18: 340,000,000
Android 17: 350,000,000
Android 16: 420,000,000

(Vegeta is stronger than Goku, even if the latter wasn't struck with the heart disease. Spending most of his time time-travelling, Trunks hasn't increased in power as much. The others have done their best to get stronger, but the Androids are a nightmare to deal with. 18 outclasses Vegeta, and 17 is stated to be stronger than her)

The Terror of Cell

Piccolo
Kami Fused & W/Weights: 330,000,000
W/Out Weights: 360,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 13,000,000
Super Saiyan: 650,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2: 975,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 12,000,000
Super Saiyan: 600,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2: 900,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3: 1,320,000,000

Cell
Imperfect: 300,000,000
Humans Absorbed: 420,000,000
Semi-Perfect: 770,000,000
Perfect (Heavily Suppressed): 1,110,000,000
Perfect (Less Suppressed): 1,800,000,000

(After fusing with Kami, Piccolo actually becomes stronger than 17, but the latter doesn't lose stamina. Cell is initally stronger than Vegeta but no match for Piccolo. After absorbing countless humans, he turns the tide, until he meets his equal in 16. After absorbing 17, he adds that power to become semi-perfect. Vegeta and Trunks's training in the ROSAT takes them to new heights, and Cell needs to become perfect to best them. His power is just 17 & 18's added a few times over depending on how much he wants to warm-up)

The Legendary Super Saiyan

Goku
Base: 32,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,600,000,000
Z-Warriors Energy: 5,500,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 20,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2: 1,500,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 19,000,000
Super Saiyan: 950,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2: 1,425,000,000

Gohan
Base: 18,000,000
Super Saiyan: 900,000,000

Piccolo: 900,000,000

Broly
Mind Controlled: 8,000
Base: 34,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,700,000,000
Legendary Super Saiyan: 3,060,000,000

Paragus: 20,000

(Oh boy...Broly. His Power is beyond what the Z-fighters can reach before the Cell Games. Only when Goku is given all their power does he win. Paragus has had quite a few Zenkai's while parenting the little hellspawn)

Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans

Goku
Base: 42,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,100,000,000

Gohan
Base: 42,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,100,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 33,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,650,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 32,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,600,000,000

Piccolo: 1,100,000,000

Hatchiyack: 4,000,000,000

Ghost Freeza: 1,400,000,000
Ghost Lord Slug: 1,300,000,000
Ghost Cooler: 1,200,000,000
Ghost Turles: 1,100,000,000

(Hatchiyack is stated to be stronger than Broly. The others have gotten stronger in preparation for the Cell Games)

The Cell Games

Goku
Base: 45,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,250,000,000
Weakened Super Saiyan: 750,000,000

Gohan
Base: 50,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 5,000,000,000

Perfect Cell
Suppressed: 2,490,000,000
Full Power: 3,180,000,000
Beyond Limits: 3,870,000,000
Super Perfect: 4,560,000,000

Cell Junior: 1,935,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 35,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,750,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 34,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,700,000,000

Piccolo: 1,200,000,000
Krillin: 8,000,000
Tien: 6,600,000
Yamcha: 4,000,000
Mr Satan: 8

(Goku does his best, but Cell is too much to handle. Gohan does better, but when Cell takes his foot off the brakes, it's rinse and repeat. The Cell Jrs overwhelm the other Z-fighters except for Vegeta and Trunks, although they can't win. Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 and Cell is hopelessly outmatched. Nothing he does works. Super Perfect Cell is slightly below. Gohan in the end still emerges victorious)

Bojack Unbound

Gohan
Base: 52,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,600,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 5,200,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 36,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,800,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 35,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,750,000,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 950,000,000
W/Out Weights: 1,200,000,000

Bojack
Base: 2,000,000,000
Full Power: 4,000,000,000

Zangya: 1,650,000,000
Bujin: 1,500,000,000
Bido: 1,475,000,000

Gokua
Base: 550,000,000
Full Power: 1,100,000,000

Krillin: 8,000,000
Tien: 6,600,000
Yamcha: 4,000,000

(The Saiyans have grown in strength slightly. Bojack is stronger than Perfect Cell, but not Super Perfect Cell. Either way, he meets the same fate with Gohan having little trouble when at full power)

Back to the Future

Future Trunks
Base: 36,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,800,000,000

3 Years Later – Base: 48,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,400,000,000

Future Android 17: 250,000,000
Future Android 18: 240,000,000

Future Imperfect Cell: 370,000,000

(Trunks ain't got time for letting his enemies power up)

The Otherworld Tournament

Goku
Base: 45,000,000
Post Training: 60,000,000
Super Saiyan: 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Kaioken x2: 6,000,000,000

Pikkon
Suppressed: 1,400,000,000
W/Weights: 2,800,000,000
W/Out Weights: 3,200,000,000

Olibu: 1,100,000,000

Perfect Cell (Suppressed): 1,110,000,000
King Cold: 95,000,000
Freezer (Suppressed): 90,000,000
Jeice: 42,000
Burter: 42,000
Recoome: 40,000
Guldo: 8,500

(Goku continues his training in the afterlife and meets many strong fighters, including Pikkon. Why is this guy not canon? I want him to appear in Super, even if just for one episode)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Z Saga Part IV
[spoiler]Seven Years Later

Gohan
Base: 43,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,150,000,000

Goten
Base: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan: 250,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 55,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,750,000,000

Trunks
Base: 6,000,000
Super Saiyan: 300,000,000

Chi-Chi: 90
Videl: 8

(Goten and Trunks are hard to place. Gohan says they're not too far behind him, but I take that to think he took their age into account. If they continue at this current pace, they'll match the older fighters by the time they're in their teens. Trunks is stronger than Goten, and Videl is about as strong as her father. Gohan's power has decreased since the Cell Games as he now focuses on his studies)

Broly Returns

Gohan
Base: 44,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,200,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 4,400,000,000

Goten
Base: 6,500,000
Super Saiyan: 325,000,000

Trunks
Base: 7,000,000
Super Saiyan: 350,000,000

Broly
Base: 55,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,750,000,000
Legendary Super Saiyan: 4,950,000,000

Videl: 13

(Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Videl have gotten stronger with their training. Broly has also seen a power increase)

Bio-Broly

Trunks
Base: 7,500,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 375,000,000

Goten
Base: 7,000,000
Super Saiyan Goten: 350,000,000

Bio-Broly: 495,000,000

Eighteen: 340,000,000
Krillin: 8,900,000
Mr Satan: 8

Bio-Warriors: 100 – 200

(Though not as strong as the real thing, Bio-Broly is a formidable foe. It takes Goten and Trunks working together to win)

The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai

Goten
Base: 8,000,000
Super Saiyan: 400,000,000

Trunks
Base: 8,200,000
Super Saiyan: 410,000,000

Gohan
Base: 46,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,300,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 4,600,000,000

Piccolo: 1,700,000,000
Eighteen: 340,000,000
Goku: 85,000,000
Vegeta: 65,000,000
Krillin: 9,000,000

Yamu: 44
Spopovitch: 40
Videl: 19
Mr Satan: 8

Supreme Kai: 2,200,000,000
Kibito: 40,000,000

(Goten and Trunks are so close, but the latter is still the better. Gohan has also gotten back into shape but is still not the same fighter he was before. Videl has seen a huge leap too. However, Spopovitch destroys her. Whether Piccolo didn't want to fight the Supreme Kai because of status or power isn't clear, but it might be both. Kibito is around the same strength as Base Gohan. Goku and Vegeta have grown, Goku in particular)

Bibidi Babidi Buu

Goku
Base: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 34,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 65,000,000
Super Saiyan: 3,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 6,500,000,000
Majin: 8,500,000,000

Gohan
Base: 46,000,000
Super Saiyan: 2,300,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 4,600,000,000

Dabura: 4,000,000,000
Yakon: 40,000,000
Pui Pui: 4,000,000
Babidi: 4

Majin Buu
Awoken: 6,500,000,000
Playing: 13,000,000,000
Full Power: 26,000,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 120,000,000
Super Saiyan: 6,000,000,000

Evil Buu: 18,500,000,000
Good Buu: 7,500,000,000

(Goku could have beaten Buu as a Super Saiyan 3, but he wanted the kids to have a try and also he can't sustain the power for very long. Vegeta sees an improvement after making a deal with the devil that puts him on the same level as Goku. Majin Buu outclasses the others, making it look easy. Even Gotenks is no match, not helped by his over confident attitude. When Buu splits, his evil side takes more of the power)

Buu’s Rampage

Goten
Base: 11,500,000
Super Saiyan: 575,000,000

Trunks
Base: 11,500,000
Super Saiyan: 575,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 172,500,000
Super Saiyan: 8,625,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 69,000,000,000

Gohan
Base: 55,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 5,500,000,000
Ultimate: 82,500,000,000

Piccolo: 1,800,000,000

Super Buu
Base: 52,000,000,000
Gotenks/Piccolo: 122,800,000,000
Piccolo/Goten/Trunks: 54,950,000,000
Gohan: 137,450,000,000

Goku: 85,000,000
Vegeta: 85,000,000

Vegito
Base: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan: 212,500,000,000

Kibitoshin: 5,600,000,000
Tien: 8,500,000

(After some brief training, Gotenks becomes strong enough to take on the powered-up Buu, though again, the over confidence is an issue. Gohan trains with the Kais and reaches new heights with his ultimate form, taking Buu down until he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. When Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegito and become Super Saiyan, it's not a fight...it's a massacre. Kibitoshin's fusion is irregular because of the power level difference)

Final Battle with Buu

Goku
Base: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 34,000,000,000

Kid Buu: 32,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000

Mr Buu: 16,000,000,000
Mr Satan: 8

(Goku may still be stronger, but the Super Saiyan 3 form is too unstable to control, and with Buu's regeneration, the fight turns on the monster's side)

Fusion Reborn

Goku
Base: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 34,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000

Super Saiyan Gogeta: 63,750,000,000

Janemba
Base: 19,000,000,000
Super: 38,000,000,000

Pikkon: 3,000,000,000
Gohan: 55,000,000
Videl: 19

Goten
Base: 11,500,000
Super Saiyan: 575,000,000

Trunks
Base: 11,500,000
Super Saiyan: 575,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 172,500,000
Super Saiyan: 8,625,000,000

Freezer (Suppressed): 12,000,000
Zombies: 4 – 10

(Same power levels as the Buu Saga. Janemba is a tad stronger than Goku. With his unique powers, he is able to make it look easy, until Gogeta steps onto the scene)

Wrath of the Dragon

Goku
Base: 86,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,300,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 8,600,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 34,400,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 86,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 4,300,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 8,600,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 180,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 72,000,000,000

Gohan: 70,000,000,000
Goten: 12,000,000
Trunks: 12,000,000
Videl: 20

Tapion: 60,000,000

Hirudegarn
Half: 30,000,000,000
1st Form: 60,000,000,000
True Form: 120,000,000,000

(A slight increase from Buu Saga. Gohan's ultimate power begins to decrease)

Goku and Friends Return

Goku
Base: 95,000,000
Super Saiyan 4,750,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 95,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 4,750,000,000

Goten: 16,000,000
Trunks: 16,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 240,000,000
Super Saiyan: 12,000,000,000

Avo: 3,500,000
Cado: 3,500,000
Aka: 105,000,000

Piccolo: 2,200,000,000
Gohan: 1,000,000,000
Eighteen: 340,000,000
Krillin: 10,000,000
Tien: 9,900,000
Yamcha: 4,100,000
Master Roshi: 900,000
Chiaotzu: 390,000
Tarble: 2,300

(Everyone sees increases except Gohan, who continues to lose his ultimate power at a steady pace. Avo and Cado are stated to be on a similar level to Freezer. I'm guessing Tarble is referring to Freezer's suppressed final form. When they fuse, they almost match the tyrant, but Goten and Trunks have the same trick up their sleeve and make short work of them. Freezer level goons are child's play...at least, for the moment)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Super Saga Part I
[spoiler]Search for the Super Saiyan God

Goku
Base: 100,000,000
Super Saiyan: 5,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 10,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 40,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Beyond Limits: 100,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God: 25,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 100,000,000
Super Saiyan: 5,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 10,000,000,000
Enraged: 50,000,000,000

Gohan
Base: 250,000,000
Super Saiyan: 12,500,000,000

Goten
Base: 18,000,000
Super Saiyan: 900,000,000

Trunks
Base: 18,000,000
Super Saiyan: 900,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 270,000,000
Super Saiyan: 13,500,000,000

Beerus
Heavily Suppressed: 1,000,000,000,000
Less Suppressed: 30,000,000,000,000

Mr. Buu: 16,000,000,000
Piccolo: 2,600,000,000
Eighteen: 340,000,000
Tien: 10,000,000

(I'm not even going to guess Beerus's full power at this stage, or make an attempt with Whis. The God power is in another realm to what we've seen. Gohan's power continues to decline, even with Super Saiyan, he's not the same he once was. Vegeta sees a huge boost temporarily that puts him above Goku until our hero gets a taste of God Power)

Revival of Freezer

Goku
Base: 240,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God: 2,400,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 120,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 240,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God: 2,400,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 120,000,000,000,000

Freezer
1st Form Revived: 485,000
1st Form Post Training: 8,800,000,000
Final Form: 2,000,000,000,000
Golden: 200,000,000,000,000

Gohan
Base: 150,000,000
Super Saiyan: 7,500,000,000
Beyond Limits: 15,000,000,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 2,800,000,000
W/Out Weights: 3,400,000,000

Gotenks
Base: 285,000,000
Super Saiyan: 14,250,000,000

Goten: 19,000,000
Trunks: 19,000,000
Krillin: 10,350,000
Tien: 10,200,000
Master Roshi: 1,080,000
Jaco: 900

Tagoma
Base: 20,000
Post Training: 4,200,000,000
Ginyu: 5,000,000,000

Shisami
Base: 23,000
Post Training: 60,000,000

Freezer’s Soldiers: 1,000 – 2,000 (Varies)

(I didn't use to go with the Saiyan Beyond God theory. But it's the only thing that makes sense to me anymore XD With it, Goku, Vegeta and Freezer are beyond the other fighters. Golden Freezer is far stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, but his stamina and arrogance is his downfall. Gohan realises how far he's slipped with his power. The Z-fighters make short work of the weakened Freezer force, even with the army's numbers. Jaco is a regular patrol officer, nothing to stand out from what we've seen. Shisami gets a huge boost from training, but nothing compared to Tagoma, who trained with Freezer personally, matching Gohan's prime in the Cell Games)

Universe 7 vs. Universe 6

Goku
Base: 300,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 150,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10: 1,500,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 300,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 150,000,000,000,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 3,500,000,000
W/Out Weights: 4,100,000,000

Mr. Buu: 16,000,000,000

Monoka: 2

Botamo: 200,000,000

Frost
1st Form: 97,200,000
3rd Form: 291,600,000
Final Form: 11,500,000,000
Weakened Final Form: 7,500,000,000

Autta Magetta:
Initial: 180,000,000
Full Power: 9,000,000,000

Cabba
Base: 280,000,000
Super Saiyan: 14,000,000,000

Hit: 120,000,000,000,000

(Goku and Vegeta get stronger after 3 years in the ROSAT. Piccolo also starts training, though he still needs more to catch up with the others. Universe 6 has some strong fighters, though Hit makes them look amateur. His unique ability and centuries of experience almost make him a match for Super Saiyan Blue)

Post-Universal Tournament

Beerus (Monaka Costume): 3,100,000,000,000

Goku
Base: 305,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God: 3,050,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 152,500,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 305,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God: 3,050,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 152,500,000,000,000

Copy Vegeta
Base: 3,050,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 152,500,000,000,000

Trunks: 21,000,000
Goten: 21,000,000
Jaco: 900

Gotenks
Base: 315,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 126,000,000,000

Gryll: 750
Gryll’s Gang: 250 – 400

(Using Vegeta's God essence, even Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is dominated, barely causing a scratch)[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Super Saga Part II
[spoiler]Rise of Black Goku

Future Trunks
Base: 85,000,000
Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000

Post 9-Years Fighting Base: 290,000,000
Super Saiyan: 14,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 29,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade Three: 31,900,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Beyond Limits: 325,000,000,000

Goku
Base: 310,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 31,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 124,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 155,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 310,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,500,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 155,000,000,000,000

Goku Black:
Suppressed: 30,000,000,000
Initial: 130,000,000,000
Zenkai: 3,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose: 175,000,000,000,000

Future Zamasu: 320,000,000,000
Zamasu: 27,000,000,000

Future Dabura: 4,000,000,000

(*sigh* This is a tough one. Trunks has received many Zenkai boosts when fighting with Black, putting him almost on the same level as Goku and Vegeta after their training with Whis. Black sees one Zenkai after the other, and with Rose, which is believed to be his equivalent of a Super Saiyan transformation, he can best even two Super Saiyan Blues. Zamasu is a prodigy amongst the Kais, and in the future becomes a great threat, though, without his immortality, he wouldn't last against better fighters)

Fall of Zamasu

Goku
Base: 310,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 140,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Enraged: 200,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x2: 400,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 315,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 157,500,000,000,000
Post-Training: 450,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 225,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks
Base: 330,000,000
Super Saiyan: 16,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 33,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rage: 198,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Spirit: 300,000,000,000,000

Goku Black
Base: 3,750,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose: 187,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose 1st Zenkai: 210,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose 2nd Zenkai: 250,000,000,000,000

Future Zamasu: 320,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu
Base: 500,640,000,000,000
Beyond Limits: 5,000,000,000,000,000
Unstable: 250,000,000,000,000

Vegito
Base: 21,250,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 10,625,000,000,000,000

(Goku gets a boost because of his rage hearing of Chi-Chi and Goten's death. Vegeta sees a boost after training more in the ROSAT. Trunks attains a new form that puts him on God level, though slightly behind the others. Black gets more and more Zenkai's. Zamasu is still Zamasu and they fuse to finish the fight. Because of the power difference, they don't become as strong as they anticipated, and Goku gets a knock or two with the Kaioken. But Merged Zamasu loses control and goes on a rampage. Vegito shows up and while not a curbstomp like his fight with Buu, he is the better fighter. Trunks uses the power of the Spirit Bomb as well as from Goku and Vegeta to finish the fight. Not as strong as Vegito, but strong enough to finish the evil Kai)

Time for Peace

Goku
Base: 410,000,000
Super Saiyan: 20,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 41,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3: 164,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 205,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 450,000,000

Hit: 200,000,000,000,000

Gohan
Base: 300,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 30,000,000,000

Barry Kahn/Watagashi: 1,000,000,000

Krillin
Base: 10,500,000
Potential Reawakened: 21,000,000

(Gohan is working himself back up, slowly getting in shape. Krillin has made slow progess over the years, but his fears hold him back. After his mission with Goku, his spirit, confidence and potential is reawakened)

Zen-Oh’s Exhibition

Goku
Base: 415,000,000
Super Saiyan: 20,750,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 207,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x2: 415,000,000,000,000

Gohan
Base: 310,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,500,000,000
Poisoned: 100,000,000
Heavily Poisoned Super Saiyan: 1,000,000,000

Mr Buu: 16,000,000,000

Basil
Base: 500,000,000
Drugged: 5,000,000,000

Lavender: 600,000,000

Bergamo
Base: 700,000,000
Maximum Power: 200,000,000,000,000

Toppo: 400,000,000,000,000

(Goku hasn't grown much since Zamasu, hence his excitement for the tournament. Gohan has gotten stronger too. Buu easily trounces Basil, even when the fox tests positive for drug use. Lavender is stronger and Gohan needs Super Saiyan to fight back, especially after poisoned. Bergamo seems stronger than Base Goku, but relies on absorbing energy. Goku goes almost all-out and it's too much for Bergamo. Toppo is Super Saiyan Blue level)

Tournament Recruitment

Goku
Base: 420,000,000
Super Saiyan: 21,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 42,000,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God: 4,200,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 210,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x2: 420,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base: 460,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue: 230,000,000,000,000

Freezer
Final Form: 2,100,000,000,000
Perfect Golden Form: 210,000,000,000,000

Gohan
Base: 315,000,000
Super Saiyan: 15,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 31,500,000,000
Ultimate: 547,500,000,000

Post-Training Base: 500,000,000
Ultimate: 750,000,000,000
Ultimate Beyond Limits: 7,500,000,000,000

Seventeen: 350,000,000,000

Piccolo
W/Weights: 27,000,000,000
W/out Weights: 35,000,000,000

Slim Mr Buu: 48,000,000,000
Eighteen: 400,000,000
Krillin: 60,000,000
Tien: 30,000,000

Master Roshi
Base: 10,000,000
Full Power: 20,000,000
Witchcraft: 30,000,000

Trunks: 23,000,000
Goten: 23,000,000

Chiaotzu: 475,000

Yurin: 10

Cabba
Base: 400,000,000
Super Saiyan: 20,000,000,000

Caulifa
Base: 410,000,000
Super Saiyan: 20,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2: 41,000,000,000

Kale
Base: 30,000,000
Super Saiyan Berserker: 27,000,000,000

Universe 9 Assassins: 1,000,000 – 10,000,000 (Varies)

(Goku is getting back into shape. Now, he only uses Super Saiyan Blue to test his teammates, not to beat them. It's a way for him to know who's at what level. This doesn't mean everyone is suddenly God level all of a sudden. With that said, everyone seems to have gotten a huge increase. Vegeta trains in the ROSAT...again. Gohan is back and better than ever before. His potential not only reawakened, but thriving and his Ultimate form back. Piccolo could actually beat him as a Super Saiyan 2, revealing he's been doing secret training of his own. Considering the power leaps Piccolo has had before, it's not too surprising. 17 is on a new level. Enough that Goku has to go above Super Saiyan 3 to test him. 18 and Krillin are training together, though 18 is still stronger. Tien and Roshi have also seen huge leaps. I put Tien above Roshi because I think Roshi was helped by the witch's spell and his unusual techniques. Freezer's power may not have increased that much, but he no longer has stamina problems and is equal to Goku, not including Kaioken. I want to boost Chiaotzu, but until we see him in an actual comparable fight, I don't know. Caulifa is stronger than Cabba. Kale is far behind, though must show some strength if Caulifa is confident in her)[/spoiler]

*exhales* Done...

[LowRyder2005]

Welcome to Kanzenshuu! After a quick glance I see no particular issue with your Super's list (in fact it reminds how treating "Saiyan Beyond God" as an alternate form solves virtually any in-universe problem). Starting with that particular premises, it seems to flow pretty well.

Are you Italian, by the way? "Freezer" instead of Freeza/Frieza is almost a dead giveaway.

[RurrlockGodOfPower]

Thanks for the kind words and welcome. Actually, born and live in England. I just used Freezer because with Frieza I kept getting the 'i' and 'e' backwards XD