Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TAF108 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:41 am

Interesting to see that Freeza can still use "100%",and that Frost can do it to. I suppose that means in a way True Form Freeza is stronger than we thought, as he's not ever using 100% of his true form power. Unless he can use 100% without bulking up, and just did so for show to get Frost to drop his guard. Either way, not something I ever expected to see. 100% Freeza typically NEVER appears when Freeza's brought back to the iconography of his "50%" and below True form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:42 am

Yeah it makes you wonder if he could do the same as Golden Frieza as well.

We saw Super Saiyan Caulifla go Hulk mode, so I wonder if Goku could do the same thing as a Super Saiyan Blue. He wouldn't nor do I think Frieza would due to the obvious flaw of it but it's possible that they could.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cursemark505 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:50 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Cursemark505 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Frost was not holding his own against Ssj Vegeta. They clashed for like, two seconds before Vegeta punched him back.

Ribrianne is not being serious. We've seen her casually fight ssj Vegeta and fight on par with 17.
And that punch did nothing. Frost then proceeded to fight evenly with SSJ Vegeta for the second time.

Makes no sense. Why on earth would she not fight at the very least at the same level as she fought 17? Base Goku should have been sent flying away instantly if she could do it.
He fought with him a second time, for 2 more seconds. That's not really indicative of anything. There have been countless fights ere people of different power levels clashed for a little bit.

Besides, Freeza didn't do anything to frost but ring him out. Freeza was also using his 100% form which should enough to put him in the tier with ssj Vegeta considering his 50% form was around Goku's base level.

There's no way to answer for why the characters aren't using full power when dealing with an opponent in this tournament in-verse That's something you have to ask the writers. Maybe it's to conserve strength, or to have fun. Who knows. As spectators, that would be boring for us so it's understandable why the writers keep doing this. Goku been doing the same thing as Ribrianne. He could have easily defeated most of the opponents he's fought thus far had he used full power from the start but he holds back against all of them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:37 am

Is it just me, or does it seem that even the average fodder has become more challenging?

I mean, that nameless Bolla guy was able to give base Gohan a challenge and even blocked a Kamehameha, and Jimeze looks like he could have beaten base Gohan with relative ease.

Hopefully challenging opponents like Bolla or more powerful than Bolla keep up appearing to give everyone a decent challenge.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:24 am

I am confused. How is it that Goku can hold off Ribrianne when she can fight on par with SSJ Vegeta. Base Goku=SSJ Vegeta?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:37 am

Of course Frost is no match for Freeza. It's good to see this obvious fact finally confirmed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperHumanGod » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:59 am

AvatarReiko wrote:I am confused. How is it that Goku can hold off Ribrianne when she can fight on par with SSJ Vegeta. Base Goku=SSJ Vegeta?
I'm guessing she isn't serious, but then she appears to transform and gain wings.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:07 am

SuperHumanGod wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:I am confused. How is it that Goku can hold off Ribrianne when she can fight on par with SSJ Vegeta. Base Goku=SSJ Vegeta?
I'm guessing she isn't serious, but then she appears to transform and gain wings.
Yeah I am taking it that Ribrianne is not taking the fight Seriously and holding back. It is already Established Canon that she Tanked SSJ-Vegeta easy and went even with 17, their is NO WAY Base Goku is as strong as they are!

I think we have to wait to you see what wings will lead to either another transformation or a new skill, but their is No Doubt Ribrianne is beyond base level.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheGreatSaiyaman » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:24 am

Long story short, Bolla and Jimeze gave Base Gohan trouble since he had no time to recover so it's probably Jimeze> Bolla > *Tired* Base Gohan.
Final Form Frieza is strongly above Jimeze so FF Frieza > Jimeze. Then Golden Frieza and Ultimate Gohan battle but it was more of an act than a real full-powered battle, so that's still up in the air. Gohan just pops back up after taking a 'hit' from Golden Frieza which is obvious they weren't serious and there's the whole dialogue at the end confirming this. So the question is how strong is G.Frieza in comparison to Ultimate Gohan. I'm guessing most likely GF > Ult Gohan, but not by a crazy margin, maybe x5 tops since Gohan is in the low-SSB levels of strength, comparable to maybe ROF or U6 Tournament SSB's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:59 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:I'll wait for the subs but it doesn't look like Gohan was faking it until the last hit.
Well from the looks of it Gohan was on to what Frieza was doing from the very first punch. It's going to make it awkward to determine much from it knowing that they were seemed to be putting on a show for Frieza.

I don't really understand what the point of it was. If Champa said that Frost wasn't a match for Frieza then why didn't Frieza should knock him out right then? Why not just turn Golden and knock him off? Why is he using more energy by turning Golden and putting on a fake fight to gain Frost's trust and catch him off guard if he was already a lot stronger than him in Final Form?
Probably because Frost is good at hidding himself. He was able to run out on SSB Vegeta without Vegeta being able to pick up on him aftwards. So the rouse was to insure Frost's guard was down competely insureing Frieza could get rid of him on the first try.
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Bullza wrote:I just went back and had a look at the Resurrection F saga and the narrator says

"In order to surpass, the powered up Frieza, Goku transforms into a form that exceeded the Super Saiyan God"

Which would make it seem that Base Goku was not as strong as Final Form Frieza if he needed to transform first in order to pass him.

When the two fought they did seem evenly matched but they were supposed to be testing each other according to Frieza and not using their full power (which could be referring to Blue and Gold) but after Goku transforms, Frieza still decides to attack him anyway which would be kind of odd if he felt he was even with him before.

So it could be that Final Form Frieza was much stronger than the Base Goku and Vegeta back then. That might be why he seems stronger than Base Gohan who is supposedly about as strong as Base Goku. That would make it the opposite of how it was portrayed in the movie but it's still a possibility.

For all we know going by the Napapa fights with Frieza and Super Saiyan Caulifla then Final Form Frieza could be above Super Saiyan level. That could possibly fit with Final Form Frost being a slight match for Super Saiyan Vegeta yet being no match for Final Form Frieza.

It wouldn't mean there was any retcon but that Frieza was actually stronger than believed.
I know, I've been stating this all along.

Freeza also implied that he would not need to go Golden to handle SS Goku.
AvatarReiko wrote:I am confused. How is it that Goku can hold off Ribrianne when she can fight on par with SSJ Vegeta. Base Goku=SSJ Vegeta?

1. We don't know if vegeta was going all out or not. It is entirely possible that Vegeta was not going all out, and eventually might have won.

2. Ribanne is not going all out against goku, and Goku is at a disadvantage "His attacks can't even hurt Ribanne" as stated by narrator at the end. He also seems to be barely holding her back.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:56 am

So, I waited like a good boy for the subs and fully analyzed the context and dialogue.

I've come to the conclusion that I've been taking the right approach by treating non-power-oriented fights as tests of skill where abilities and cunning are played up instead of power-fests where a higher power level automatically trumps a lower one.

With Jimeze, Gohan wasn't doing so hot because the Yardrat kept using Instant Transmission to target his vitals and he didn't catch on, whereas Freeza did. As well, Freeza let Jimeze deplete Gohan's stamina so that him and Frost could easily defeat the weakened Saiyan.

Once the fists started flying between Freeza and Gohan, despite being a less serious fight, it's clear that Golden Freeza and Ultimate Gohan exist within the same general range, with maybe Ultimate Gohan being somewhat lesser of the two though by no means helpless.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:08 am

apex_pretador wrote:I know, I've been stating this all along.

Freeza also implied that he would not need to go Golden to handle SS Goku.
He handled Jimizu easily and that was someone who we saw Goku fighting as a Super Saiyan. He also said that Gohan should have turned Super Saiyan against Jimizu.

Last episode Vegeta used Super Saiyan when fighting Magetta and then Frost. If Frost is more comparable to that level then Frieza should be above the Super Saiyan level. In the manga Frost wasn't as pitiful in comparison to Super Saiyan either.

He also Hit made serious when he was avoiding his attacks.

So it might be that Final Form Frieza is more comparable to say Zamasu than Base Cabba or something.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:29 am

Bullza wrote:
He handled Jimizu easily and that was someone who we saw Goku fighting as a Super Saiyan. He also said that Gohan should have turned Super Saiyan against Jimizu
.
I think Freeza implied that Gohan could've handled easily if he went Super Sayan

Last episode Vegeta used Super Saiyan when fighting Magetta and then Frost. If Frost is more comparable to that level then Frieza should be above the Super Saiyan level. In the manga Frost wasn't as pitiful in comparison to Super Saiyan either.
Frost was using Magetta as a shield the entire time. Vegeta was still handling Magetta and Frost at the same time just using super saiyan.
However, Frost does seem to be more than just "base saiyan" level.
He also Hit made serious when he was avoiding his attacks
That seemed sarcasm to me.
So it might be that Final Form Frieza is more comparable to say Zamasu than Base Cabba or something.
Somewhere between present and future Zamasu I'd think.

He is definitely more than Base Cabba comparing his and Caluifla's fight with Napapa.
He is also well above base vegeta as champa yelled frost is "no match" for Freeza.
He is however, weaker than Ultimate Gohan as he forced him to transform (I know that the fight was not a fight-to-death, but Freeza would not have transformed if he could've slapped around Gohan in base).

So, it seems that my placement was indeed correct
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:35 am

So Base Goku = Final Form Frieza >>> Final Form Frost > Base Vegeta = Base Cabba = Base Goku

Obviously, two base theory. You guys need to stop denying it for no reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:38 am

Loputousu wrote:So Base Goku = Final Form Frieza >>> Final Form Frost > Base Vegeta = Base Cabba = Base Goku

Obviously, two base theory. You guys need to stop denying it for no reason.
Yes, the two base theory where one Base hinges on you having SSGod power in Base when SSGod is a separate form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:01 am

Bullza wrote:I just went back and had a look at the Resurrection F saga and the narrator says

"In order to surpass, the powered up Frieza, Goku transforms into a form that exceeded the Super Saiyan God"

Which would make it seem that Base Goku was not as strong as Final Form Frieza if he needed to transform first in order to pass him.

When the two fought they did seem evenly matched but they were supposed to be testing each other according to Frieza and not using their full power (which could be referring to Blue and Gold) but after Goku transforms, Frieza still decides to attack him anyway which would be kind of odd if he felt he was even with him before.

So it could be that Final Form Frieza was much stronger than the Base Goku and Vegeta back then. That might be why he seems stronger than Base Gohan who is supposedly about as strong as Base Goku. That would make it the opposite of how it was portrayed in the movie but it's still a possibility.

For all we know going by the Napapa fights with Frieza and Super Saiyan Caulifla then Final Form Frieza could be above Super Saiyan level. That could possibly fit with Final Form Frost being a slight match for Super Saiyan Vegeta yet being no match for Final Form Frieza.

It wouldn't mean there was any retcon but that Frieza was actually stronger than believed.
You don't even need to "cling" on the narrator's words, because it's implied Freeza is above the "powered-up" base Goku but just a little above him already (like, y'know, everyone deduced from ROF and the Super's arc); Freeza being from ten to fifty-fold stronger than Goku looks very difficult to rationalize, though, as Goku never even acts as if Freeza is that much above him. If we think Freeza was trying to force him to go Super Saiyan, in which case why would he make it that difficult with a suppressed state that's near Goku and which makes him sweat and try his hardest? Why not simply power-up more in Final Form from the beginning if it's readily available and show Goku he needed to turn Super Saiyan? Did he want to get a kick out of fighting base Goku? I don't know, I'm not sure it'd work at all. At bare minimum you'd need to think of the state Goku is in (and Freeza) as something in-between base and Super Saiyan, or something relatively close to his Super Saiyan; in the movie, it's basically implied it should fall somewhere between Goku with "(some or all) God's power" and Blue. Still, Freeza being able to kill base Goku with the wave of a hand looks extremely dubious and it's obviously not what was intended when they wrote those scenes.

Plus, one needs to remember the Super Saiyan part was written with reference to Blue, since it's taken 1:1 from the movie and there were no actual plans for Goku to turn Super Saiyan as long as he wielded the power of a god in base. So what Goku should have really been implying in the writers' heads is that he doesn't need to turn Blue.
Still, I honestly don't know what'll take at this point to some of you guys accept that Goku was probably performing at a power level far higher than his regular base form -- to avoid one retcon you're considering retconning anything else, like Freeza's and Frost's power? What's the point, when it still needs half-a-dozen of logical jumps?
I mean, okay, even assuming that Frost is weaker than Final Form Freeza, are you forgetting the most official claim is that Frost should be stronger than Piccolo who's at least about as strong as a SS2 and that Gohan is always relative to Goku at basically any point post the U6 arc? How is anything of this supposed to make sense with anything that's happened since episode 75?

Base Goku >= Base Gohan > Freeza > Frost > Piccolo >= SS2 Gohan > SS Gohan > Base Goku >=< #18 >=< Base Gohan?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:With Jimeze, Gohan wasn't doing so hot because the Yardrat kept using Instant Transmission to target his vitals and he didn't catch on, whereas Freeza did.
At no point in the episode is it remotely implied that Gohan "didn't catch on" to the fact that Jimeze was targeting his blind spots, he simply wasn't capable of keeping up or reacting in time. That's why the dialogue continuously emphasized that Jimeze was either too fast or even too strong if we're talking about Gohan's own statements (yet Frieza said he was "child's play" in comparison to himself) and Frieza flat-out said that Gohan should have gone Super Saiyan to beat him. It really is as simple as Final Form Frieza > base Gohan.

So no, I think you just keep misinterpreting what the Tournament of Power is meant to be about. Obviously strategy and unique abilities have a place -- they were even employed here as well -- but I can't ever recall an instance in the entirety of the battle royale in which they've totally replaced the sense of scaling and strength that has obviously been alluded to and talked about by the characters at MULTIPLE points, including this very episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:16 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Loputousu wrote:So Base Goku = Final Form Frieza >>> Final Form Frost > Base Vegeta = Base Cabba = Base Goku

Obviously, two base theory. You guys need to stop denying it for no reason.
Yes, the two base theory where one Base hinges on you having SSGod power in Base when SSGod is a separate form.
It's very simple to understand if you can think. SBG = partial SSG power. SSG = full SSG power. Easy peasy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:21 am

Loputousu wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Loputousu wrote:So Base Goku = Final Form Frieza >>> Final Form Frost > Base Vegeta = Base Cabba = Base Goku

Obviously, two base theory. You guys need to stop denying it for no reason.
Yes, the two base theory where one Base hinges on you having SSGod power in Base when SSGod is a separate form.
It's very simple to understand if you can think. SBG = partial SSG power. SSG = full SSG power. Easy peasy.
Despite the fact Saiyan Beyond God (fuck Heroes with a molten iron rod in the throat for making this POS) is basically Base = SSGod. The pamphlet info used a few months back by people even cited that Goku & Vegeta in F have Gods power in Base and when they use SS, it turns them into Blue.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:55 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:Freeza being from ten fifty-fold stronger than Goku looks very difficult to rationalize, though
It would be a bit of a stretch I suppose. It's not impossible though, if he were a lot stronger than Base Goku it might be why he decided to still attack the transformed Goku.

Frieza shouldn't be any stronger than back in the Resurrection F saga and meanwhile Goku, Vegeta and Frost would have all grown considerably stronger. So for Frieza to still be that strong that Frost wouldn't stand a chance even now must mean that Frieza had to have been significantly stronger than Base Goku all the way back then.
I mean, okay, even assuming that Frost is weaker than Final Form Freeza, are you forgetting the most official claim is that Frost should be stronger than Piccolo who's at least about as strong as a SS2 and that Gohan is always relative to Goku at basically any point post the U6 arc?
No I was gonna bring that up actually.

Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Frost. Maybe even in Base form actually as it seemed like that's how it was gonna go before Magetta came in. Frost is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo is at least as strong as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

It's possible that Base Vegeta and Goku are stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, that is how it should be anyway because Base Goku and Vegeta are well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan did not have his original power he had during the Buu saga.

I'm not sure how relative Goku and Gohan actually are. While Gohan got his ass kicked by Jimizu, Goku was putting up a much better fight against Ribrianne who is their top fighter. I can't see Piccolo being above Super Saiyan 2 Goku considering how both their fights went with Ultimate Gohan.

SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Goku > Goku > Frost > Piccolo > SSJ2 Gohan > SSJ Gohan > Gohan

That's really what it should be as Piccolo and below were below Buu saga Ultimate Gohan and Base Goku should really be above that.

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