Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Loputousu]

Yes, the two base theory where one Base hinges on you having SSGod power in Base when SSGod is a separate form.

It's very simple to understand if you can think. SBG = partial SSG power. SSG = full SSG power. Easy peasy.

Despite the fact Saiyan Beyond God (fuck Heroes with a molten iron rod in the throat for making this POS) is basically Base = SSGod. The pamphlet info used a few months back by people even cited that Goku & Vegeta in F have Gods power in Base and when they use SS, it turns them into Blue.

Given that SBG Goku's ki could be felt but SSG Goku's ki couldn't, it was obvious that it was never the same as SSG.

[ekrolo2]

It's very simple to understand if you can think. SBG = partial SSG power. SSG = full SSG power. Easy peasy.

Despite the fact Saiyan Beyond God (fuck Heroes with a molten iron rod in the throat for making this POS) is basically Base = SSGod. The pamphlet info used a few months back by people even cited that Goku & Vegeta in F have Gods power in Base and when they use SS, it turns them into Blue.

Given that SBG Goku's ki could be felt but SSG Goku's ki couldn't, it was obvious that it was never the same as SSG.

I never said it was the same, it was Goku with SSGod level power in his Base form which resulted in Blue whenever he transformed. Goku having two bases form and everything in-between or after them reeks of standard Dragon Ball Super policy of arbitrary power related shit to justify bad writing.

[LowRyder2005]

Freeza being from ten fifty-fold stronger than Goku looks very difficult to rationalize, though

It would be a bit of a stretch I suppose. It's not impossible though, if he were a lot stronger than Base Goku it might be why he decided to still attack the transformed Goku.

Frieza shouldn't be any stronger than back in the Resurrection F saga and meanwhile Goku, Vegeta and Frost would have all grown considerably stronger. So for Frieza to still be that strong that Frost wouldn't stand a chance even now must mean that Frieza had to have been significantly stronger than Base Goku all the way back then.

I mean, okay, even assuming that Frost is weaker than Final Form Freeza, are you forgetting the most official claim is that Frost should be stronger than Piccolo who's at least about as strong as a SS2 and that Gohan is always relative to Goku at basically any point post the U6 arc?

No I was gonna bring that up actually.

Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Frost. Maybe even in Base form actually as it seemed like that's how it was gonna go before Magetta came in. Frost is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo is at least as strong as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

It's possible that Base Vegeta and Goku are stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, that is how it should be anyway because Base Goku and Vegeta are well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan did not have his original power he had during the Buu saga.

I'm not sure how relative Goku and Gohan actually are. While Gohan got his ass kicked by Jimizu, Goku was putting up a much better fight against Ribrianne who is their top fighter. I can't see Piccolo being above Super Saiyan 2 Goku considering how both their fights went with Ultimate Gohan.

Regarding Ribrianne I have yet to watch the whole fight with attention, but I'm leaning towards the idea it was supposed to be a warming up phase (or that Ribrianne was just testing Goku). To me she probably needs to be above the full extent of base Goku and base Vegeta -- SS Vegeta seems like he had to act defensively against her attacks and stuff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxOFR1hqTGk). I think you'll eventually see Goku using at least Super Saiyan against her and getting an edge. At the moment I doubt she's really supposed to be as strong as Blue, however.

To clarify, I don't see Piccolo as above SS2 Goku either. My relative is just "at most a dozens of times weaker" (if Goku is above SS3 Gotenks from the Buu arc and Gohan is somewhat weaker than his Cell Game self, obviously the gap would be gigantic) -- enough to accomodate Goku's choice of transformation when fighting Gohan. There's the usual quirk of Goku "powering up to a Super Saiyan weaker than his regular base form" otherwise.

Although I am most happy with the way you worded your stance now. Looks like a way fairer and poised approach -- *sigh*, if only the thread was like this all the time I'd be one happy cinnamon roll.

[Loputousu]

Despite the fact Saiyan Beyond God (fuck Heroes with a molten iron rod in the throat for making this POS) is basically Base = SSGod. The pamphlet info used a few months back by people even cited that Goku & Vegeta in F have Gods power in Base and when they use SS, it turns them into Blue.

Given that SBG Goku's ki could be felt but SSG Goku's ki couldn't, it was obvious that it was never the same as SSG.

I never said it was the same, it was Goku with SSGod level power in his Base form which resulted in Blue whenever he transformed. Goku having two bases form and everything in-between or after them reeks of standard Dragon Ball Super policy of arbitrary power related shit to justify bad writing.

If it's not the same, then you should have no problem admitting that SBG and SSG can coexist. It would simply mean that Goku can transform into SSB without using all of his SSG power. In the anime, as time passed, Goku became able to transform into SSG (full SSG power), but still uses SBG sometimes (maybe against Ribrianne, Final Form Frieza etc.).

[ekrolo2]

Given that SBG Goku's ki could be felt but SSG Goku's ki couldn't, it was obvious that it was never the same as SSG.

I never said it was the same, it was Goku with SSGod level power in his Base form which resulted in Blue whenever he transformed. Goku having two bases form and everything in-between or after them reeks of standard Dragon Ball Super policy of arbitrary power related shit to justify bad writing.

If it's not the same, then you should have no problem admitting that SBG and SSG can coexist. It would simply mean that Goku can transform into SSB without using all of his SSG power. In the anime, as time passed, Goku became able to transform into SSG (full SSG power), but still uses SBG sometimes (maybe against Ribrianne, Final Form Frieza etc.).

They can't coexist because I just explained why: Saiyan Beyond God (seriously, fuck Heroes) is SSGod power in Base. That's why God absorption was even a thing, a way to get rid of the form but keeping it's power. The manga was smart enough to just not have Base Goku do anything absurd whereas the anime keeps the movie rules of SSGod being a temporary power boost until it comes back because.... reasons.

[Loputousu]

They can't coexist because I just explained why: Saiyan Beyond God (seriously, fuck Heroes) is SSGod power in Base.

There's no point in debating you because for some reason, you refuse to understand that SBG = partial SSG power which also enables transformation to SSB.

[BlueBasilisk]

They can't coexist because I just explained why: Saiyan Beyond God (seriously, fuck Heroes) is SSGod power in Base. That's why God absorption was even a thing, a way to get rid of the form but keeping it's power. The manga was smart enough to just not have Base Goku do anything absurd whereas the anime keeps the movie rules of SSGod being a temporary power boost until it comes back because.... reasons.

Actually, it's the opposite. In the manga Shenron says the ritual will temporarily create a Super Saiyan God and Beerus says Goku's power is running out while they're fighting. In the anime they never say it's temporary and Goku dropped out of the god form but kept its power level as a Super Saiyan because it was "incorporated into his very being" or some such.

As for the "Saiyan Beyond God" thing, wasn't that just a placeholder transformation on the RoF Goku card that eventually got replaced with SSB once the movie was released?

[TheSaiyanGod]

All of that is purely headcanon. YOU rewatch the episode. Gohan was able to hurt SSB Goku and he used Kaioken without Gohan telling him to. Gohan even said he would use his full power on SSB Goku, implying he was holding back before. The narrator also confirmed that Gohan was on SSB Goku's level.
In this very episode Gohan was able to land hits on GOLDEN FREEZA. While weakened. If Gohan was nowhere near SSB he could not have done what he did.

Was he able to hurt Goku SSB? When did you see it? When was this shown? Do not make up lies

'' Gohan has achieved a power that rivals that of Goku. '' Yes, with the Goku SSJ2.

Why, conveniently, does that mean that Gohan rivals Blue? it means absolutely nothing.
Gohan asked Goku to use ALL OF HIS POWER, this includes the Kaioken. Goku has never been '' forced to use ''.

And Freeza clearly had to restrain himself from killing Gohan on this EP. Your superiority is indisputable

When the narrator stated that Gohan's power rivaled Goku's, they were showing a clip of Gohan fighting ssjb.

Gohan also clearly stated that he was playing along with Freeza's plan so idk what you're talking about.

Why are you desperately denying that Gohan is in the God realm despite the narrator's comment, despite Gohan clearly fending off ssjb, and despite Gohan managing to fend off Golden Freeza even while not fighting his hardest because he was going along with the plan? Didn't Toshio also say that Gohan's power rivaled 17, someone who is also in the God realm? There's more evidence for than against.

Again, this does not prove ANYTHING. The narrator has not specified that Gohan rivals Goku Blue, that's just convenient for you.
The clip could be displayed from any moment of the fight while the narrator was speaking.

It was too implicit to take as a fact.

Gohan followed Freeza's strategy, but Freeza himself said that he would have killed Gohan if the Saiyan had not realized it.
Kuririn reinforced this by saying that Freeza could actually have betrayed the team if Gohan continued to fight.

This only indicates that Gohan simulated that knockout, but not the faces of pain or the scratches on the body.

Only the fact that Freeza does not want to defeat Gohan already proves that he was holding back, which completely nullifies the fact that Gohan had swapped punches with him.
That is, it is useless to use this battle as a base (in the case of Gohan only).

17 is not God level. 17 = Gohan was just the opinion of Toshio, does not represent anything (he is just a screenwriter, does not mean that this is valid for the series)

[ekrolo2]

They can't coexist because I just explained why: Saiyan Beyond God (seriously, fuck Heroes) is SSGod power in Base. That's why God absorption was even a thing, a way to get rid of the form but keeping it's power. The manga was smart enough to just not have Base Goku do anything absurd whereas the anime keeps the movie rules of SSGod being a temporary power boost until it comes back because.... reasons.

Actually, it's the opposite. In the manga Shenron says the ritual will temporarily create a Super Saiyan God and Beerus says Goku's power is running out while they're fighting. In the anime they never say it's temporary and Goku dropped out of the god form but kept its power level as a Super Saiyan because it was "incorporated into his very being" or some such.

As for the "Saiyan Beyond God" thing, wasn't that just a placeholder transformation on the RoF Goku card that eventually got replaced with SSB once the movie was released?

It was temporary because of the absorption business, the very point of God fading away was to power up Goku's Base to its level of power. Hence why the anime having God and an empowered Base state together feels like straw grasping to try and make sense of broken scaling.

I'm not familiar with the mechanics or history of Heroes but both the movies and first two anime arcs have God powering up Goku & Vegeta's Base forms to explain why they're so much stronger without transforming then they ever were in Z. Then U6 seemed to start retconning this by bringing back the old golden forms on top of other things.

[Ziegander]

Power levels in Super don't make any sense, so I'm not sure they're even worth discussing. I know that sentiment gets bandied about as often as "if X goes Y, I'm done with Super," but Episode 108 prompted me to do a little math on the subject, using the numbers and multipliers we know, and the results are just... insanity.

Gohan has gotten a really shitty deal in Super, so I decided to check on how his power level might stack up given what we know of Super Saiyan power levels, how frustratingly little we understand about how his "mystic" Ultimate "form" works, and other known knowns from Dragon Ball Z and Super.

Let's begin with the basics: Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier to one's power level, ie: strength, speed, endurance, etc. So, at the start of the Resurrection F arc, we see Gohan go up against first form Frieza and even his power as a Super Saiyan is pathetic before whatever power level Frieza is currently boasting. First Form Frieza.

First form Frieza had a power level of 530,000. When he fought Super Saiyan Goku at 100% of his full power in his Final Form (TM) he had a power level of 120,000,000. This means in his first form, on Namek anyway, Frieza's power level is less than 1/225th of his real, total power.

We know Frieza has gotten stronger since Namek. Frieza trains so he can become stronger, I mean he obviously makes a super saiyan look pathetic by comparison to his first form power level, and Goku when he arrives to face Resurrection F Frieza, tells Frieza that he's gotten a lot stronger. So, he's stronger, that's a fact. How much stronger, we have no real idea, because Gohan has become so pathetically weak, that it's difficult to gauge. The problem this creates for power scaling in Super and for Gohan more specifically is that almost no matter how weak we begin assuming Gohan has gotten since the Buu arc, it makes power levels beyond absurd to even care about.

Androids 18 and 17 are both stronger than Namek arc Final Form Frieza when they are introduced. They casually stomp SSJ Vegeta and Trunks whose power levels have to be right there with, honestly probably significantly higher than, SSJ Goku's when he was introduced, so the Androids have power levels easily in the 160 million range probably WAY higher. Android 17 is stronger than 18, who effortlessly trashes SSJ Vegeta, and Android 16 is much stronger than Android 17. Let's be really, really conservative and give them power levels of 160 million, 170 million, and 200 million respectively. After Cell absorbs Android 17, Android 16 has no chance against him. I'd say, continuing our tradition of lowballing here, that puts Semi-Perfect at, at least 250 million. And then after spending his time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Vegeta comes out stronger than ever, making Semi-Perfect Cell look foolish. So, I'd give then SSJ Vegeta a PL of something like 310 million, minimum. Okay, but if Semi-Perfect's got a PL of 250 million and he absorbs 18, then at minimum his PL as Perfect Cell is 410 million. And, honestly, if we assume that the height of SSJ PL is 350 million, that doesn't seem too far-fetched. Gohan goes SSJ2 and increases his power level to something close to 700 million and is able to finish the job, with difficulty, even after Perfect Cell regenerates from cellular destruction and comes back stronger. This would all seem to make sense. Okay, so if SSJ2 Gohan has a power level of 700 million, then his base power level would have been 7 million. Twice as strong as his father was when he stood against Frieza on Namek.

Well, okay, but Gohan got weaker since he fought Cell. Yes, this is true. He's barely used his SSJ2 form since then, maybe only once or twice even, and he probably has closer to a PL of 500 million in that form at this rate (his base form will have become significantly weaker). However, Goku and Vegeta have not stopped training and we know that Goku acquires the SSJ2 and even later acquires a SSJ3 form which drains stamina at alarming rates but is 4 times as strong as an SSJ2. So, let's assume that Goku's base form has increased a bit since the Cell saga. Let's give him a base PL of 9 million. That means, then, as a SSJ3 his power level would be 3.6 billion. Phew. That's over 5 times as strong as SSJ2 Gohan at the height of his power. And yet, Gohan becomes significantly stronger than that by the time he fights Buu.

What becomes frustrating at this point is what exactly is the difference in power level between Gohan's "base form" and his "mystic/ultimate form." Why is he shown ever not using his ultimate form? Well, in Super, the argument is he's stopped training again, he's forgotten how to access his power, he's gotten significantly weaker again. He's lost his ultimate. He can still manage to go Super Saiyan, but the power increase he achieves from it is still weaker than First. Form. Frieza. Okay. Wow. So, Let's say he's weaker than he was when he fought Cell. Let's say he's significantly weaker. Substantially weaker. Let's say he's lost 80% of his power. That would mean his base power level is at something like 1.2 million. Okay, okay, not great, but still not terrible, as a SSJ he's at 60 million, he could stand up against 50% final form Frieza from Namek and is still stronger than all of the humans (let's just forget, for now, that Piccolo should easily have a power level of 250 million by now, bare minimum). But here's where this shit gets just completely out of control. If we assume Gohan has gotten so weak that his Super Saiyan form is only half as strong as Namek Saga Final Form Frieza's full power, and if we assume that Resurrection F Frieza's First Form can shit stomp that level of power like it's nothing and that Base Goku at the time is strong enough to handle Resurrection F Frieza's Final Form, then we have put ourselves in the situation where at the beginning of Super we have a Base Goku who is, assuming all of Frieza's multipliers have remained the same (and we have no reason to assume otherwise), no less than two-thousand times stronger than his son's base form. We have a Base Goku with a power level of, at least, 2.4 billion. Base Goku is at least 40 times stronger than SSJ Gohan. And that's unbelievable. That would mean that, as of Resurrection F, SSJ Goku has a power level of 120 billion, or more than 33 times the power level he had as a SSJ3 when he would have been fighting Buu. It's incomprehensible. And to make matters worse, we're supposed to believe that Gohan re-acquires the lost power he had when he fought Buu, but that would mean that when he fought Buu he had to have a power level of, at least 240 billion if he's still fighting on par with Super-level SSJ2 Goku and beyond. We're supposed to believe that Gohan goes from a maximum power of 60 million, all the way back up to at least 240 billion. That's an increase of 4,000 times.

Power levels in this show have become so inconsistent none of it makes any sense anymore, and I don't really see how it's even worth it to discuss power scaling anymore.

[ssj3kakarot]

Here is my question in regards to Goku's new Limit Breaker ZOMG UBERX10 FORM.

Is it going to be a complete waste of a power up? I know it's too early to speculate, but that's what these forums are for anways, but.....

Goku throws the SB with KKX20 and then presumably goes Limit Breaker...but we still have a fight with Hit and Jiren. So is this new form just a big flop or, do you guys think that Limit Breaker comes later in this arc?

I just can't see Goku getting a new technique or transformation and then it only lasting 1 episode. What the heck happens to Goku? Thoughts, comments, ideas?

[Dbzk1999]

Here is my question in regards to Goku's new Limit Breaker ZOMG UBERX10 FORM.

Is it going to be a complete waste of a power up? I know it's too early to speculate, but that's what these forums are for anways, but.....

Goku throws the SB with KKX20 and then presumably goes Limit Breaker...but we still have a fight with Hit and Jiren. So is this new form just a big flop or, do you guys think that Limit Breaker comes later in this arc?

I just can't see Goku getting a new technique or transformation and then it only lasting 1 episode. What the heck happens to Goku? Thoughts, comments, ideas?

Simple, it's possible that it might be a transformation that he isn't able to sustain for a long period of time (at least the first time using it). He probably is able to fight Jiren 1v1 but gets hampered by that potential weakness (still speculation of course). I'm really basing it off the fact that it seems to be goku pushing past the normal limit that his body is able to stand (just a guess)

[lord turbo]

Well, I'm probably being a bit of an ass, but it's because I find this exchange and your attitude to be the equivalent of intellectual Bitcoin mining, a chore in the first place: I feel like you're the typical Dragon Ball fan who gets half of the fact straight from the sources, and then fills the other half with some headcanon-ascended-to-Bible truth-that-obviously-cannot-anything-else. The "quote-by-quote", which clutters the thread, and the nitpicking format, the bloatedness, and the general "this is how it is (when in fact it isn't)" attitude surely doesn't help in the slightest. I'd probably be a little softer if you switched your uncompromising attitude with a more open-minded mindset towards hypotheses, different viewpoints and be more critical towards yourself, but it looks like it'd be a hard task.

I see, I'm willingly to mostly agree with you since this recent episode just threw back everything we thought we knew so far in regards to power levels among the characters. If you can drop the knee jerk, abrasive, elitism rude passive aggressiveness, under your breath, smart ass subtle jabbing, pretentious pseudo elegant ass attitude behind... Lets just start from scratch and re-approach this from scratch.

Oh, please. You started saying there was nothing implying "he was a Super Saiyan 2", then you backpedaled and just said there's some arbitrary rule about hair bangs being instead 100% definite. I could just do the same and say that since SS2 Goku in the anime with sparks and bangs is called "Super Saiyan", neither bang nor sparks are definite. If you said "I think Black is a SS" I'd have no issue. I'd still think Vegeta is a SS2 (I mean, with Vegeta: how would you even avoid conflating the forms all the time since there are only the sparks as cues?) and Black was probably a SS2 as well.

I'm pretty sure I did not in fact back pedal if you actually bothered to pay attention. I said there's nothing implying Vegeta is using SSJ2 going by auras in this instance since Black has the same one as he's clearly SSJ. Now, you can't the visual hairstyle cues for their forms ridiculous when you are doing the exact same thing with auras which makes you come off as a hypocrite if you didn't notice.

https://imgur.com/a/HF7Zf
https://imgur.com/a/HF7Zf

As you can see the first scan SSJ1 and SSJ2 hair-style are disctinctly shown in the same page, as you can see in the second scan the hair style remains exactly the same and consistent in DBS' manga. What's more we know that SSJ and SSJB have the exact same hair-style as as shown with Vegeta and Goku, just different colors. The notes for Black's SSJ and SSJR by Toriyama follows the exact same pattern of same hair-style just different colors. We see what's clearly labeled as SSJ for Black being just that in the manga and his hair-style when he transforms to SSJ and SSJR are identical so I yes, that's indeed SSJ1 for Black which ties in back to what I was saying, its here that visual cues for auras are not definite and Black SSJ shows it can have the same identical aura that we thought was only possible for SSJ2 Goku or Vegeta. I think I'm being reasonable with my logic here. Also, its kind of funny because my whole point in general was that Black and Vegeta were in the same form so we unintentionally started debating over semantics when we both agree about the same thing, lol.

Vegeta comments only after that the transformed Black's power is something Trunks can't handle after fighting him a little bit. There's actually nothing definite about Black being above SS3 Gotenks in the manga.

Trunks has also seen the transformed Black, but he also knows Black is stronger than him in base form, so of course he'd say Black is the stronger one regardless.[/quote]

I understand where you are coming from, the thing is Trunks notices something unusual that Black is much stronger than before. Keep in mind Black hasn't been injured to near death by Trunks to receive that Saiyan NDPU trait, this means Black held back a lot the last time he fought Trunks and still thrashed Trunks to the point he described him as being far above his own level. This means Black used his full power for the first time against Vegeta, however, Vegeta's merely acknowledging Black's full power is beyond Trunks, not that its required since we know Black held back a lot against Trunks so this isn't confirmation he can't beat Trunks even in Base form.

Trunks also mentions its the first time Black has ever used SSJ in a long time meaning he hasn't used it recently against Trunks since the last time they fought, they also state it must mean Black is feeling cornered to bring it out, combined with Black dismissive tone and words about Trunks being fodder seem to heavily imply he only needed base form for Trunks. Again, not outright stated, but it appears heavily implied.

Also, speaking about Gotenks, in the DBS manga his SSJ3 is shown extremely ineffective and is entire dismissed effortlessly by Beerus, yet SSJ2 Vegeta surprises Vegeta and puts up the best showing against him where everyone else got fodderized. Keep in mind in the manga its never mentioned Vegeta's anger made him temporaily stronger than Goku or anything of that nature, so is the line of Vegeta mentioning he surpassed Goku back then when he was made as well so this was just Vegeta's normal level of power. Both Goku and Vegeta are shown equally matched during their training in regards to the heavy clothing armor Whis puts them in so Goku's SSJ2 should be equal to Vegeta's that surpasses SSJ3 Gotenks, this means SSJ3 Goku would be several times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks already.

Vegeta is shown stronger than Black in the same forms visually, yet Vegeta came out have a significant edge so Vegeta's base should be > Black's base that's heavily implied to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku which is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at this point in time.

You have this huge problem that you keep acting as if your intepretations are better than anyone else's when they're just cluttered by your own confirmation bias and poor judgement. Black says he had problems controlling Goku's body and using Super Saiyan before he discovered Zenkai, he never said he also learnt to control Goku's body entirely (if yes, I'd personally be inclined to believe wouldn't be saying he still is "overwriting his cells or something"). Being "unable to use Super Saiyan in the capacity he wanted to" also doesn't automatically mean he couldn't use Super Saiyan at all.

I agree, looking back I did come across as being unreasonable so my bad, that was not my intention and I lost sight of that since I always try to be open-minded and level with everyone.

https://imgur.com/a/c0HNi

According to that Black is simply suffering the same problem Ginyu had when he stole Goku's body on Namek. He was unable to use Goku's full potential as he didn't have immediate access to it, he didn't know how to unlock his power, he didn't even have SSJ from the beginning, however, through the Saiyan NDPU trait he gradually became able to use use more and more of Goku's full potential. The Saiyan NDPU trait made his body and soul more and more closer to being as one which is the same dialogue used for Ginyu on Namek, you need to make your body and soul as one to be able to properly use all of the ki in Goku's body. I don't believe Black's comments about Goku's gaining control over them means he over writing them as earlier than that Vegeta said the same thing about only Goku being able to control those Saiyan Cells to maximum potential.

I'm not being pedantic, or at least not gratuitously so: "he lost more than 90% of his power" means just that. Literally, it's not an "he was left with almost 10%" like you're claiming, which'd probably, semantically, indicate some value relatively close to 10%. He could have said 1%, 2%, "almost all of his power" and the scene would have worked the same. The rest is again a bunch personal interpretations. Do note that in the manga we also don't know how much SSG and Blue surpass the regular forms in general, as no comparison is drawn between a Fusion of Goku and Vegeta and God in the first place.

occam's razor, keep it simple. Whis used a hard concrete number as a point of reference to convey to the audience the amount of power Vegeta lost, if he meant more he would have specificed such since that defeats the purpose of making declaritive statements. If he was more vague and broad with no specific mention of number you may have a point, unfortunately, Whis did no such thing. Its like when Freeza said he has a power level over 1 million in his second form he does not mean over 3, 4 , 5 million and etc otherwise he would have been more specific. As for the comparison between SSJG and SSJB and the regular forms we do actually.

Compare the effects of SSJ3 Goku's full force punch on King Kai's word to the effects of SSJG Goku's punches against Beerus that threaten to destroy the entire universe. Needless to say that's quite an astronimcal gap between the god forms and regular non-god Saiyan forms.

[spoiler]First off, nope: it's not "source vs. incorrect claim", but "my idea I got from source material vs. some way the guidebooks worded this". It's anything but a direct statement, since I could just as easily claim strength and ki do not scale off in a 1:1 ratio.
Secondly, I wasn't saying SS Goten rivaled SS2 Gohan and I had made it clear in the post above I was reconciling statement and manga with the guidebook talking about rivaling in equal forms. It's clear the manga leaves the reader with the impression that the kids are prodigies and not that far off Gohan straight from the beginning. It's at least said they would catch up fairly quickly; I think I have Goten around 1/6 of Goku's strength in the beginning and 60% Goku's strength post-ROSAT. It's honestly a good way to fit with Buutenks claims that a Metamoran fusion of Gohan and Goku almost surely wouldn't beat him, and his absolute confidence and utmost certainty he's gonna destroy the opponent when he's Buuhan (I follow the assumption Gohan is ssome 50% stronger than Gotenks) and he thinks he might be going to face Gogeta. As you said, "source material trumps incorrect claims". After the ROSAT, the kids almost certainly aren't much weaker than the adults.[/quote]

I was correcting your idea about Goten being closed to Gohan using the guide books as a point of reference being flawed from the start. Also, Gotenks Buu claim about a metamoran fusion of Goku and Vegeta seems unfounded. His absorptions are mentioned as being additive so he's only twice as strong as he was as base Super Buu since him and SSJ3 Gotenks were about equal and elder Kaioshin never shot down the idea of a metamoran fusion between Goku and Gohan not being enough to beat Buu, just that he doesn't believe Buu would give them the time to actually perform it. As for Goten and Trunks growth after time chamber training? What is this exactly based on? Is it Gotenks? If so I don't think Gotenks is an accurate representation of the kids growth. I say that because Piccolo mentioned the the tiniest of growth from them would impact and make the fusion of Gotenks more effective so it doesn't seem like the kids themselves need to improve significantly in order for Gotenks to be effective, especially considering they pulled out SSJ3 for him.

Uh... how's that related? The point is that Goku thinks a foe as strong as his idea of Freeza would be a good fight for the kids, this is before regardless of how strong Abo and Kado ultimately are.
Besides, it's pretty funny to read this after a "source material über alles".

I was asking how does Goku thinking two guys as strong as Freeza make a good fight against the kids using 2% of their full power in the anime compared to Toriyama's version where he says the kids will be fine against opponents as strong as Freeza?

DBS doesn't neither visually nor unambiguously proves base Gohan > Piccolo in ROF: the only thing concrete you have is characters looking at base Gohan and saying he's probably the most troublesome, but you have multiple instances of characters deducing someone's dormant power (Ginyu vs. Goku, Freeza vs. Goku, etc.), and Gohan's dormant power is obviously above everyone else's, even though he can't output it like he wants to. But anyway, you're probably forgetting a weighted Piccolo is swatted by a somewhat serious Tagoma, while Ginyu-Tagoma (the one facing off against Gohan) is nowhere as serious and is taking his time humoring a "weakling" in his own words like Gohan.

I didn't forget Piccolo had on weights, however, at the same time I don't think what he was wearing is meaningful since he never it off once against Tagoma who was way strong or against Freeza who was one-shotting SSJ Gohan. This suggests the weights don't have any significant impact on Piccolo's personal power. I mean the last point of reference we got for weighted and unweighted Piccolo was during the Android Saga when Piccolo states to Imperfect Cell he's going full power and powers up to max. Android 16 mentions that one of the powers (Piccolo) rivals his own with 17 being in disbelief. Later on a non-weighted Piccolo powers up to full and shows power on par with 17 so it seems like the weights don't add any noticeable increase for Piccolo post-Freeza Saga.

Anyway, back to Piccolo and Base Gohan, Piccolo powers up to full and his full force attack doesn't even remotely budge a relaxed Tagoma who proceeds to easily tear Piccolo's arm off. Base Gohan jumps in front of Tagoma and instantly forms a generic nameless ki blast that sends Tagoma flying a good distance away. Afterwards, you have a powered up Ginyu attacking everyone simultaneously at once to be stated by Jaco and Piccolo to be stronger than before.

There's nothing stating Ginyu isn't serious or taking his time humoring Gohan by going by his words, nor does Gohan make any mentioned Ginyu using less power than before against him to showcase he's toying with him. All things considered base gohan seemed vaguely stronger than Piccolo during RoF and during their training session were they are both drenched in sweet unweighted clothing Piccolo and base Gohan are shown about equal just before the U6 tournament. Looking back on it I think base Gohan and Piccolo are more or less portrayed equals and Piccolo doesn't show any gains over this weakened rusty Gohan until the ToP saga where he's shown he trained enough to strangle Gohan out of SSJ2.

I didn't comment about the weaker the Cell Games remark since to be honest DBS has been pretty inconsistent if Gohan's training or not training, if he can match Goku in the same forms or not and etc. so I didn't bother.

[LowRyder2005]

I see, I'm willingly to mostly agree with you since this recent episode just threw back everything we thought we knew so far in regards to power levels among the characters. If you can drop the knee jerk, abrasive, elitism rude passive aggressiveness, under your breath, smart ass subtle jabbing, pretentious pseudo elegant ass attitude behind... Lets just start from scratch and re-approach this from scratch.

I simply loathe the "hey, I'm gonna correct you" back 'n forth that are factually "hey, let's confront our ideas on the subject even if we disagree" in disguise.

I understand where you are coming from, the thing is Trunks notices something unusual that Black is much stronger than before. Keep in mind Black hasn't been injured to near death by Trunks to receive that Saiyan NDPU trait, this means Black held back a lot the last time he fought Trunks and still thrashed Trunks to the point he described him as being far above his own level. This means Black used his full power for the first time against Vegeta, however, Vegeta's merely acknowledging Black's full power is beyond Trunks, not that its required since we know Black held back a lot against Trunks so this isn't confirmation he can't beat Trunks even in Base form.

Trunks also mentions its the first time Black has ever used SSJ in a long time meaning he hasn't used it recently against Trunks since the last time they fought, they also state it must mean Black is feeling cornered to bring it out, combined with Black dismissive tone and words about Trunks being fodder seem to heavily imply he only needed base form for Trunks. Again, not outright stated, but it appears heavily implied.

I'd say it depends. Black may also feel cornered because he's fighting someone stronger than him, and his Super Saiyan - being the strongest form - is his last possibility to turn the tables. It's nothing more than "Black is being forced to use his 100%" to me.
And, hey, I'm still not sure I understand where Goku falls in all of this according to you. Your idea is that he's less than 1% of Vegeta's power under equal forms but Blue. His SS3 is near-equal to SS2 Trunks, base Black is above it according to you and base Vegeta is above him.

While I can understand the logic simply because the manga at least does make it look like base Black is a big shot at least in the prologue, I still disagree because it's in-universe implications are extreme and the out-of-universe look frankly absurd. This contention rests entirely on whether base Black can beat a fresh SS2 Trunks and a SS3 Goku, and everything looks pretty fishy to me. It'd take me a bunch of clear statements or more comparisons to discard the idea Black is simply above Trunks under equal forms, if the opposing argument the idea Goku and Vegeta made a many-hundred fold leap (with Vegeta also becoming *100 times stronger than Goku) afterwards. I could concede that it's easier to make such a case in the manga according to the way the story is presented, but I prefer to go with the "heavily implied" subtext that Goku and Vegeta are always progressing toe-to-toe.

Also, speaking about Gotenks, in the DBS manga his SSJ3 is shown extremely ineffective and is entire dismissed effortlessly by Beerus, yet SSJ2 Vegeta surprises Vegeta and puts up the best showing against him where everyone else got fodderized. Keep in mind in the manga its never mentioned Vegeta's anger made him temporaily stronger than Goku or anything of that nature, so is the line of Vegeta mentioning he surpassed Goku back then when he was made as well so this was just Vegeta's normal level of power. Both Goku and Vegeta are shown equally matched during their training in regards to the heavy clothing armor Whis puts them in so Goku's SSJ2 should be equal to Vegeta's that surpasses SSJ3 Gotenks, this means SSJ3 Goku would be several times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks already.

I don't really have a problem with this. Not even sure if it looked like it, in fact.

I agree, looking back I did come across as being unreasonable so my bad, that was not my intention and I lost sight of that since I always try to be open-minded and level with everyone.

https://imgur.com/a/c0HNi

According to that Black is simply suffering the same problem Ginyu had when he stole Goku's body on Namek. He was unable to use Goku's full potential as he didn't have immediate access to it, he didn't know how to unlock his power, he didn't even have SSJ from the beginning, however, through the Saiyan NDPU trait he gradually became able to use use more and more of Goku's full potential. The Saiyan NDPU trait made his body and soul more and more closer to being as one which is the same dialogue used for Ginyu on Namek, you need to make your body and soul as one to be able to properly use all of the ki in Goku's body. I don't believe Black's comments about Goku's gaining control over them means he over writing them as earlier than that Vegeta said the same thing about only Goku being able to control those Saiyan Cells to maximum potential.

The translation I had read somewhat differently (I'm sure yours if the official one, of course). It doesn't change the fact that Black is not simply a mind in a Saiyan body; something that is supposedly... no idea, mixing his genetic material with the host, a hybrid of the sort. The talk is strangely scientific. So yeah, if he had some tiny multipliers I wouldn't mind and it wouldn't exactly feel completely gratuitous. I think I'm pretty open to possibilities, frankly, it's the gaps you have in mind that strike me as something that's lacking in the common sense department. Again, I simply believe that if Toyotaro wanted us to believe Vegeta was a hundred times stronger than Goku he'd obviously have it made clear(er).

occam's razor, keep it simple. Whis used a hard concrete number as a point of reference to convey to the audience the amount of power Vegeta lost, if he meant more he would have specificed such since that defeats the purpose of making declaritive statements. If he was more vague and broad with no specific mention of number you may have a point, unfortunately, Whis did no such thing. Its like when Freeza said he has a power level over 1 million in his second form he does not mean over 3, 4 , 5 million and etc otherwise he would have been more specific. As for the comparison between SSJG and SSJB and the regular forms we do actually.

I'm not going for a literal argument, here. As for that matter, I'm also trying to keep it simple: lest your argument is that he would've needed to say "he lost over 95%/96%/97%" or something, I'd remind you that there's no value over 90% that's a round number.
Now, Whis says Vegeta couldn't "even exert 1/10 of his power". The only thing you reader supposed to deduce from that is that Vegeta's power as Blue at that point was abysmally low. I can of course understand dismissing the values between 0% and 1%, since "he couldn't even exert 1% of his power" looks like the closest, handy figure-of-speech which would've been implemented, but any value between 1% and 9% can work, with increased likeliness for values between 5% and 9%.
In the same way, Freeza having a power of over 1 million makes fair game thinking he belongs to some bunch of digits between 1,000,001 and relatively close to 2 millions. Of course, Ockham's Razor makes some value relatively more probable than others.

I was correcting your idea about Goten being closed to Gohan using the guide books as a point of reference being flawed from the start. Also, Gotenks Buu claim about a metamoran fusion of Goku and Vegeta seems unfounded. His absorptions are mentioned as being additive so he's only twice as strong as he was as base Super Buu since him and SSJ3 Gotenks were about equal and elder Kaioshin never shot down the idea of a metamoran fusion between Goku and Gohan not being enough to beat Buu, just that he doesn't believe Buu would give them the time to actually perform it. As for Goten and Trunks growth after time chamber training? What is this exactly based on? Is it Gotenks? If so I don't think Gotenks is an accurate representation of the kids growth. I say that because Piccolo mentioned the the tiniest of growth from them would impact and make the fusion of Gotenks more effective so it doesn't seem like the kids themselves need to improve significantly in order for Gotenks to be effective, especially considering they pulled out SSJ3 for him.

I'm not claiming you should take it literally as much as you should use some contextual reading instead of dismissing the entry: the Daizenshuu is telling you Goten possesses power as fabulous as Gohan's, meaning that his power is at least very high by the standards of the Buu arc. I don't know how strong, or weak, you have Goten, but it sounds kind of extreme to me to keep him as low as Goku on Namek.
Regarding Buu, it depends on how Fusion works and what kind of gaps you have at that point. If you think Goku is a dead weight compared to Gohan's power, like I do, their Fusion might not end up too far from Buutenks himself.

As per Gotenks, I'm also considering that. I have Gotenks multiplying the power of the weakest fusee per some tens of times.

I was asking how does Goku thinking two guys as strong as Freeza make a good fight against the kids using 2% of their full power in the anime compared to Toriyama's version where he says the kids will be fine against opponents as strong as Freeza?

You mean they'd stomp Freeza in Super Saiyan form? Since their Super Saiyan is obviously above that (probably above #18, given that she resorts to use the Kienzan to disqualify them instead of ringing them out) he should be referring to a fight in base form with the kids falling around final form Freeza. They can train without transforming, so I don't see the problem.

I didn't forget Piccolo had on weights, however, at the same time I don't think what he was wearing is meaningful since he never it off once against Tagoma who was way strong or against Freeza who was one-shotting SSJ Gohan. This suggests the weights don't have any significant impact on Piccolo's personal power. I mean the last point of reference we got for weighted and unweighted Piccolo was during the Android Saga when Piccolo states to Imperfect Cell he's going full power and powers up to max. Android 16 mentions that one of the powers (Piccolo) rivals his own with 17 being in disbelief. Later on a non-weighted Piccolo powers up to full and shows power on par with 17 so it seems like the weights don't add any noticeable increase for Piccolo post-Freeza Saga.

Anyway, back to Piccolo and Base Gohan, Piccolo powers up to full and his full force attack doesn't even remotely budge a relaxed Tagoma who proceeds to easily tear Piccolo's arm off. Base Gohan jumps in front of Tagoma and instantly forms a generic nameless ki blast that sends Tagoma flying a good distance away. Afterwards, you have a powered up Ginyu attacking everyone simultaneously at once to be stated by Jaco and Piccolo to be stronger than before.

There's nothing stating Ginyu isn't serious or taking his time humoring Gohan by going by his words, nor does Gohan make any mentioned Ginyu using less power than before against him to showcase he's toying with him. All things considered base gohan seemed vaguely stronger than Piccolo during RoF and during their training session were they are both drenched in sweet unweighted clothing Piccolo and base Gohan are shown about equal just before the U6 tournament. Looking back on it I think base Gohan and Piccolo are more or less portrayed equals and Piccolo doesn't show any gains over this weakened rusty Gohan until the ToP saga where he's shown he trained enough to strangle Gohan out of SSJ2.

I didn't comment about the weaker the Cell Games remark since to be honest DBS has been pretty inconsistent if Gohan's training or not training, if he can match Goku in the same forms or not and etc. so I didn't bother.

I don't have the scene in mind but I'm fairly sure it was probably just a surprise blow: SS Trunks can do the same to Fat Buu in the Buu arc, Piccolo can do it to Freeza, etc.
I think you missed the part when Ginyu literally states Gohan's power is puny, basically taunting him during all of their brief fight. But anyway, I had also forgotten the Gohan who fights Tagoma not only doesn't manage to do anything worthwhile also took a Senzu; so yeah, even less reason to believe he amounts to much in ROF. This also wouldn't even necessarily mean his SS is superior to a fully rested Piccolo. Honestly, given that everything fits with the later arcs and solves pretty much every headscratchers, from Piccolo's selection in U6 vs. U7 looking more reasonable (instead of a "Gohan doesn't fight = Gohan won't fight for us"), Piccolo being equal or above to a partly-retrained SS2 Gohan, and Trunks' remarks on Gohan's power.

[Shlugo]

Here is my question in regards to Goku's new Limit Breaker ZOMG UBERX10 FORM.

Is it going to be a complete waste of a power up? I know it's too early to speculate, but that's what these forums are for anways, but.....

Goku throws the SB with KKX20 and then presumably goes Limit Breaker...but we still have a fight with Hit and Jiren. So is this new form just a big flop or, do you guys think that Limit Breaker comes later in this arc?

I just can't see Goku getting a new technique or transformation and then it only lasting 1 episode. What the heck happens to Goku? Thoughts, comments, ideas?

For all we know Jiren might try to attack Goku while he's still transforming/getting used to his power, and Hit jumps in to buy time.

[Bullza]

As odd as it might be, it wouldn't be too much of an issue for Ultimate Gohan to actually be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Vegeta.

In the Universe 6 saga Vegeta does say (and by this point he's a Super Saiyan Blue of course) that it's obvious that Gohan has the greatest potential of everyone.

So as this Ultimate form is supposed to be Gohan's potential unleashed then it definitely could be Blue level going by the series.

The bigger issue would be how he went from his Buu saga level Ultimate Gohan strength to Super Saiyan Blue Goku level in a day. Gohan never trained in the form before so perhaps the slightest bit of effort caused for all that potential to just come gushing out.

[LowRyder2005]

As odd as it might be, it wouldn't be too much of an issue for Ultimate Gohan to actually be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Vegeta.

In the Universe 6 saga Vegeta does say (and by this point he's a Super Saiyan Blue of course) that it's obvious that Gohan has the greatest potential of everyone.

So as this Ultimate form is supposed to be Gohan's potential unleashed then it definitely could be Blue level going by the series.

The bigger issue would be how he went from his Buu saga level Ultimate Gohan strength to Super Saiyan Blue Goku level in a day. Gohan never trained in the form before so perhaps the slightest bit of effort caused for all that potential to just come gushing out.

Leaving the matter of Gotenks' strength, Copy-Vegeta and such, you can have Gohan (Cell Game) > Gohan (Super) > Gohan (Buu Arc) - but weaker than Ultimate Gohan in general - with the Ultimate form making him stronger because he's stronger than what he was in the Buu Arc.
Since there's little to no emphasis placed on how much Gohan progressed compared to his Buu arc self, I personally don't think Ultimate (and by extension the higher tiers of the Buu arc) was really supposed to be that far below God from the start nowaydays, at least not in the way people thought (hundreds and thousands of times inferior). Or, at least, if it was implied in the past it looks way less likely now.

The only thing standing in the way is the "Goku thought Vegito wouldn't beat Beerus" argument (it honestly works if you think Vegito can't go SS3 and/or Goku was referring to a hypothetically weaker Gogeta). I think I have Buuhan at around 20% of Super Saiyan God, and the current Gohan a little stronger than that. If you think Gohan has become a lot stronger, as long as he's not made monster gains, then it's even easier to rationalize.

[ssj3kakarot]

As odd as it might be, it wouldn't be too much of an issue for Ultimate Gohan to actually be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Vegeta.

In the Universe 6 saga Vegeta does say (and by this point he's a Super Saiyan Blue of course) that it's obvious that Gohan has the greatest potential of everyone.

So as this Ultimate form is supposed to be Gohan's potential unleashed then it definitely could be Blue level going by the series.

The bigger issue would be how he went from his Buu saga level Ultimate Gohan strength to Super Saiyan Blue Goku level in a day. Gohan never trained in the form before so perhaps the slightest bit of effort caused for all that potential to just come gushing out.

1st: let me start by saying that I'm all for characters staying relevant or getting power ups that have some thought behind them.

The iussue I have with Gohan being anywhere near current SSB level is bc in both the Battle of Gods movie and Super Ep.5 Goku suggest that the power of fusion wouldn't even be able to contend with the power of Beerus. We then have a few arcs later, and a number of training sessions in the Time Chamber, Whis training, etc, and some serious fights. Afterall, we know that fighting improves the skills of sayians. Not to mention they achieve SSB form, which is stronger than SSG.

Now here is where some speculations comes into play because we don't actually know how much effort Beerus put into the fight with Goku, though we know it was a great deal more than he did against max SSj3 Goku and the gang. It isn't conceivable that Gohan, as weak as they've written him to be, could go from "zero to hero" like he did. They hyped this God form and God ki so much, for what? So Mystic Gohan could pump out just as much juice? Not likely.

Which is why I personally think Gohan, though very strong, is no where near SSB Goku. However I do want Gohan to be relevant and a top contender in this series, but his Mystic form as it is right now, should be laughable with out more training under his belt. Why go through the troubles of introducing God-ki and then have Gohan be on par with the ancient Saiyan ritual.

I'm ALL for good writing to support power boost, for example if they wanted to give some explanation that because an Elder-Kai unlocked Gohan's power via an ancient "God" ritual (the Dbz dance he performs on Gohan), that in essence, Gohan is able to unlock a "God-like" state. I'd be perfectly fine with that actually. What I don't like is Gohan's Mystic form (APPEARING) to be SSB levels because, well, reasons. Or Krillin being able to push Goku back, or Roshi sparing with Goku. It's sloppy.

[Ziegander]

I don't know, to me it just seems like nobody's power levels make any semblance of sense anymore. Super says that Gohan has become as strong as he was when he faced Buu, as in he's regained that strength. He had gotten outrageously weaker since then, but now he's "back (TM)." Honestly, I don't see any signs that Gohan has surpassed his ultimate strength in the Buu saga, pun... sort of... intended. The only reason people think he must have gotten stronger is how he compares to Super Saiyan Blue and consequently to Beerus and other super-powerful entities, but SSB has absolutely no reasonable measuring metric. It could be 1,000 times stronger than SSJ2 or it could be 50% stronger than SSJ3 or it could even be 10% weaker than SSJ3 but with only negligibly higher ki/stamina drain than SSJ2. We have very little idea how strong SSB is, because regardless of whether Goku is SSJ2 or SSJ3 or SSB he gets stomped by Beerus.

SSJ3 Gotenks in the Buu saga was at minimum twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku at the time, but in Super, Base Goku is 40 times stronger than SSJ Gohan when Frieza is resurrected.

The power levels issue started to become a problem when base power levels began to be inflated and the power level of forms became fluid, and now it's just an absolute mess. There was a time where it felt like training to become stronger was training to unlock your next form. This is how Vegeta became a Super Saiyan. He trained, and trained, and trained, and eventually he was able to unlock a form that multiplied his power by 50. His base power didn't increase by 50. Somehow, presumably, he increased his base power to about what Goku had on Namek, likely higher, because he wouldn't have had the benefit of an incredibly emotional rage boost, and then he "earned" the SSJ form. Next the Saiyans learned they could increase the power of their SSJ transformation by remaining in the form as long as possible, training in it, eventually becoming so immersed in that power that they could remain Super Saiyans 24/7. Again, this made sense. They could essentially train until they adopted SSJ as their new "base form." Next they would learn to climb new heights of power from this level of comfort with their last power level. But somewhere along the line instead of SSJ becoming their base form, their base forms became more powerful at the same time as their SSJ forms so that in addition to gaining the new SSJ2 transformations their SSJ1 transformations got even more powerful, which consequently makes their SSJ2 even more powerful, and you see where I'm going with this. By the time we get to Super the Super Saiyan form means absolutely nothing because with training you can acquire a power level absurdly higher than it without ever needing to transform. I mean, when Goku first acquires the form he's got a power level 3 mil. I assume by the time he's fighting Buu he might have a base power level of 10 million. SSJ still means something. Namek SSJ Goku had a power level 150 million. Buu Saga SSJ Goku has a power level of 500 million and he can go SSJ3 now for a power level of 4 billion! Nice! But by the time super rolls around he has a base power level in the billions. You can just train and get stronger than a Super Saiyan, and not just stronger, but hilariously, absurdly stronger. So now, instead of training to unlock the next transformation, our characters train and become intensely stronger than their last transformation before they get their new one, and then when they do get the new transformation, even though they are now already stronger than they could have been with the old one before their training, they also get a sweet new power multiplier on top of that. It doesn't make any sense and none of it feels earned.

[dragon boss z]

I completely agree. The scaling in Super makes absolutely no sense. First off in the RoF arc they make it seem like they forgot how strong Piccolo was. Tagomo, who was Zarbon level before training, and after training compared to the Ginyu force, but implied he was much stronger, still should of been nowhere near 100% Frieza. When Ginyu took over his body and got even stronger he still got stomped by a heavily weakened ssj Gohan, yet he stomped Piccolo. He also got casually one shot by base Vegeta. And Piccolo got knocked down by the same move that knocked down skinny Roshi and Roshi survived. That makes it look like Piccolo and skinny Roshi are comparable in strength. In the U6 arc they make Piccolo look a bit better by being able to hold his own against Frost a bit, however this makes it seem like Frost should be around Tagoma tier, yet if you scale off Goku and Vegeta he would be even stronger than RoF Frieza, yet now it's been confirmed Frost is not match for Frieza by Champa.

One of the biggest problems with he scalling is the show doesn't know if it wants base Goku and Vegeta to be above ssj3 tier, or just a bit above buu saga base tier.