Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

That's fair.

To be honest, I'm sure power levels in general have been toned down in terms of how ludicrous they got. No obvious statements to such, but it probably is the direction being taken. Of course, the more likely explanation, for me, anyways, is that they were never being factored in the first place and that we're reading too much into the "implications" of them at times. From a writing standpoint, the writers can't just admit they've brought down/up power levels or simply made a list. It's just not a writing move they can make at this point. Some fans may want it, but it just can't be done by the writers. Don't ask how, because the answer is a lot more complicated then "this and that".

Besides the upper levels of god-level having clear rankings to them, I doubt we'll ever get clear-cut answers. And to be frank, I'm okay with this. I like interesting fights. I don't like when a fight (or analysis of a fight) involves "my [X] is higher/lower than your [X], therefore this is/isn't BS".

As a matter of fact, I think that's basically the best common ground between the many ideas floating around (and most sensible alternative in general) -- at least compared to stuff like SS Cabba defeating Super Vegito with one mean look. The power levels being somewhat remotely factored now in should best act as a premise in general.

[TheMikado]

^^^ it really hard to tone down your power levels when your very first arc starts with two characters having the ability to “punch the universe out of existence”.

That’s why this was completely ludicrous from the start. You can’t have that as your starting point and then still have your characters get hundred of times of even 20times via KK all why having other characters casually existing the universes at the same levels and it not destroy what suspensions of belief you would have even for a fictional work like Dragonball.

[ZombieVito]

Not necessarily impossible. What we know for certain is that Goku transformed into a SS to force Frost to use his full power, his Final/Base Form. Vegeta also transforms into a SS to instantly knock Frost out of the ring but doesn't kill him because he doesn't want to stoop to his level. We also know that when base Goku was fighting Assault Form Frost, he was still warming up and wanted Frost to transform right then and there.

What we don't know is if either Saiyan truly needed to use SS during their fights with the dastardly space extortionist.

Currently, we have base Vegeta sucker-punching Frost and preparing to fight him without any clear intention of transforming, only turning into a SS to fight evenly with Magetta like the previous tournament. We also have a thematic "equal in power" exploration between Goku and Freeza in base and god-level forms, though if the actual factual content is like that is unknown.

Thus, it could go either way. After all, fighting opponents lower than one's normal state as a Super Saiyan, or at least expressing the desire to do so, isn't uncommon, especially for Goku, who wanted to do so with Krillin in-between the Future Trunks Arc and the current one.

It is. The fact is that if Vegeta's base is truly stronger than Frost then he would have one shotted him like nothing as a Super Saiyan yet he didn't. Twice.

Kuririn's case is different. Goku wanted a friendly match. The ToP is life or death, Vegeta has no reason to hold back in a 2 vs 1.

[LowRyder2005]

Some random considerations from the first exhaustive PL list I've compiled in basically years; in hindsight, had I read this two weeks ago, I wouldn't have thought it could exactly be possible to satisfy... well, basically every single one of these conditions.

I absolutely love the fact that each of these sounds like the trollish opening sentence - laid either as a claim or as an "authoritative statement of the sort" - of threads which would spark one horrible 50-page debate after another. Obviously don't take these as scientific research, but interpretations extremely personal in nature born after re-going through the entire series and what had predated it.

[spoiler]- In what's probably my most heretic choice, SS Vegito would make short work of SS God Goku, but SS2 Gogeta woudn't. I know, I know. It could make sense, though, in-universe, with some convenient reinterpretation of Goku's words about the godly realm's strength normally not being accessible for non-fused beings, Goku not knowing there were new Potaras (actually, are we sure that the magical Potaras are still around in Universe 6 and that those we saw on Rou and Kibitoshin weren't just normal earrings? I mean, how are they even created in the first place?). Not saying I still wouldn't get bashed without good reason, but hey.

- My current Goku is basically even with #18; both are about six times stronger than Namek's Freeza. With his amped up base form, sparingly used, he's stronger than Majin Vegeta -- and weaker than Good Buu. His Super Saiyan is just two times that amount (note to self: the entirity of Super becomes absurdingly easier to scale by dropping the 50-fold figure, even though it's clear it's almost surely being acknowledged in general).

- Being a spurious Potara fusion, my Vegito is still the same from the Buu arc (he's above SS3 Goku, but weaker than Super Buu, basically) and doesn't scale off the current Goku and Vegeta. He just goes Blue on top of it.

- Final Form Frost (pre-training) is about even with SS2 Kid Gohan. Post-training not sure.

- Frost and Freeza follow the same multipliers, and those multipliers are from the Namek Arc. My Golden form multiplier ended up being 120 times the strength of Freeza's final form.

- Final Form Freeza and Buu Arc base Vegito are about even -- and both are above SS3 Goku from the Buu arc. I thought this was really neat.

- Gohan regressed to pre-Android Arc levels a little before BOG. His Ultimate form in BOG is about even with Mr. Buu, and he can't access it later, but Freeza's folks and everyone else (Gohan included) could still sense it/ have the feeling it was inside him.

- The First Form Freeza seen in ROF is basically Namek's 100% Freeza times two.

- Tagoma is a scrub who's at most a little stronger than Buu Arc's base Gohan and even Super Saiyan Goku on Namek would destroy him.

- Cabba and "amped" base Goku perform that well just because Vegeta lost a totally absurd amount of energy to use a fully charged Final Flash against Magetta (who isn't that strong, but just very resilient). Cabba is actually Namek Arc levels himself, even though he possesses a natural power level way higher than our universe's Saiyan. Caulifla is stronger than Cell Game's Goku, though, and possesses the necessary strength to unlock Super Saiyan 3. Which also makes her weaker than Goku from the Buu arc.

- Without his weights and with his full stamina, Piccolo would have made short work of Tagoma and First Form Freeza.
- If Piccolo fought in the Buu arc he wouldn't have done more than what East Kaioshin did; in the following years, though, he doubles his power through intense daily training. He could now beat Perfect Cell -- maybe not Super Perfect Cell, though, with moderately more difficulty than SS2 Kid Gohan.

- Current Gohan is about even with Super Saiyan God Goku from the BOG arc. The shocker is that he follows the same multiplier seen in the Buu arc. Another shocker is that before the current arc, he's still weaker than the Gohan from the Cell Game. Super Saiyan God, in general, is not that much above Gohan's potential unleashed multiplier.

- To heat up some GT vs. Super debate, Super Saiyan 4 Goku from the Baby Arc (who has a way lower multiplier than SSG) would not only win against Super Saiyan God Goku, but also a fully serious Beerus with moderate difficulty. With that being said, I hope Whis will be indirectly/directly referenced as above every single contestant, so that I can drop the 10/15 scale -- I still could or maybe should, though.

- I'm still completely clueless as to whether I should make the Trio De Danger, including non-drugged Basil, above Majin Vegeta or weaker than #18. Probably forced to lean towards the first hypothesis, though, with my arbitrary revised "trained Saiyan Beyond God" thing.

- Super Saiyan Berserk is the biggest multiplier ever, with a 1,000,000 increase over base. The new form of Goku is - temporarily - 500,000 times over base until further notice.

- Gohan, Goten, Trunks and consequently Gotenks all get the biggest nerf bat seen in the entire franchise. Base Gohan in the current arc, though, reclaims the level of base Goku and base Vegeta at the beginning of BOG -- which is the strongest he's also ever been.

- I made SSG Goku 7% of Beerus' full power to make a meaningful tie-in with his statement that "nobody had ever forced him to use 10% of my power" and to give some sort of relevance to the phrase. Which means my SSB Goku + Kaioken * 10 something beats Beerus, unless something changes.

- With the current form, Goku could finally surpass SS4 Gogeta from GT. He would still be weaker than my Vegito Blue.[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

There's some new information from the episode spoilers that just came out so skip this post if you don't want to see.

- Hits time skip has no effect on Jiren. I wonder if that just means that Jiren is so powerful that he's unable to stop him like he couldn't with Goku when he used Kaioken before.

- Caulifla and Kale are more powerful than Cabba. Makes sense.

- Monna seems to get the better of Cabba.

[BlueVegerot]

1. Hits timeskip can be overpowered. SSB KKx10 goku did it and jiren is way beyond that level

2. Caulifla and Kale were stronger than cabba once they first transformed, how is that new?

[BlueVegerot]

I have a question about Freeza's strength. Did his maximum power actually increase from the RoF arc to now or is he just able to maintain max for longer?

Let me explain more : Lets say Freeza was a 10 in RoF arc but he could only maintain that level for 5 minutes, is he now say a 15 with ability to maintain for say 15 minutes or is he still a 10 with 30 minutes of stamina?

My assumption was that goku had gotten anywhere from 2-10 times stronger in SSB from the u6 tournament but maybe I am mistaken

[Hugo Boss]

I have a question about Freeza's strength. Did his maximum power actually increase from the RoF arc to now or is he just able to maintain max for longer?

Let me explain more : Lets say Freeza was a 10 in RoF arc but he could only maintain that level for 5 minutes, is he now say a 15 with ability to maintain for say 15 minutes or is he still a 10 with 30 minutes of stamina?

My assumption was that goku had gotten anywhere from 2-10 times stronger in SSB from the u6 tournament but maybe I am mistaken

The impression I got was that Freeza made a special training to master his golden form, so he is probably as strong as he should be if he hadn’t the issue with stamina.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I have a question about Freeza's strength. Did his maximum power actually increase from the RoF arc to now or is he just able to maintain max for longer?

Let me explain more : Lets say Freeza was a 10 in RoF arc but he could only maintain that level for 5 minutes, is he now say a 15 with ability to maintain for say 15 minutes or is he still a 10 with 30 minutes of stamina?

My assumption was that goku had gotten anywhere from 2-10 times stronger in SSB from the u6 tournament but maybe I am mistaken

The impression I got was that Freeza made a special training to master his golden form, so he is probably as strong as he should be if he hadn’t the issue with stamina.

I always viewed it as Freeza training to do away with the stamina drain, which in turn increases his overall power, like what Goku and Gohan did by mastering the original SS form in the Room of Spirit & Time. They didn't actually opt to get stronger outright, it was just a happy consequence of them removing most of SS's stamina drain.

[BlueVegerot]

Wow so Goku with 3 years of time chamber training + more than a year of training with Whis and Vegeta and having fights with the likes of Goku Black, Hit, M Zamasu and Toppo didn't get a whole lot stronger than he was during RoF. I guess Vegeta was right about them nearing the limits of their powers atleast in SSB

[Marlowe89]

The extended spoilers for Episode 111 makes it clear that Goku won't awaken the "Mastery of Self-Movement" (I'm guessing this is related to the new form?) until the end of his battle against Jiren, and since we now know that neither of them will be defeated by the end of that match, I'm going to tentatively assume that this whole special won't be anything more than a tease for what will happen at the end of the tournament. Oh well, beggars can't be choosers.

[Animelover5487]

The extended spoilers for Episode 111 makes it clear that Goku won't awaken the "Mastery of Self-Movement" (I'm guessing this is related to the new form?) until the end of his battle against Jiren, and since we now know that neither of them will be defeated by the end of that match, I'm going to tentatively assume that this whole special won't be anything more than a tease for what will happen at the end of the tournament. Oh well, beggars can't be choosers.

Of course neither of them were going to be defeated, there are still 30+ contestants left and nearly 30 mins left of the tournament. No way was Toei going to wrap up pretty much the main event of the arc so soon.

[Marlowe89]

Of course neither of them were going to be defeated, there are still 30+ contestants left and nearly 30 mins left of the tournament. No way was Toei going to wrap up pretty much the main event of the arc so soon.

I was honestly expecting one of them to lose (or at the very least an extended look at the new form) especially with how the fight has been hyped to hell by Super's advertising.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing at all though. I think it could provide the means for a more gradual progression for Goku, slowly working his way up to the point where he can become a challenge for Jiren by the end of the tournament. It's certainly more logical and just all-around more fresh as a concept than just having Goku immediately move up to that level right then and there, and assuming it has any relation to Whis' training methods, thematically consistent as well.

[BlueVegerot]

[spoiler]So goku tells caulifla he can't even go ssj1 in episode 113 but that he will "regain stamina by fighting", which makes very little sense and then apparently he is overwhelming both kale and caulifla in 114 and forces kale to go into her berserk form. So in 1 minute did goku get enough energy to go ssg or ssb or is his base form stronger than both of them combined?[/spoiler]

[Hugo Boss]

I have a question about Freeza's strength. Did his maximum power actually increase from the RoF arc to now or is he just able to maintain max for longer?

Let me explain more : Lets say Freeza was a 10 in RoF arc but he could only maintain that level for 5 minutes, is he now say a 15 with ability to maintain for say 15 minutes or is he still a 10 with 30 minutes of stamina?

My assumption was that goku had gotten anywhere from 2-10 times stronger in SSB from the u6 tournament but maybe I am mistaken

The impression I got was that Freeza made a special training to master his golden form, so he is probably as strong as he should be if he hadn’t the issue with stamina.

I always viewed it as Freeza training to do away with the stamina drain, which in turn increases his overall power, like what Goku and Gohan did by mastering the original SS form in the Room of Spirit & Time. They didn't actually opt to get stronger outright, it was just a happy consequence of them removing most of SS's stamina drain.

I think that was just the first part of the training. They got used to Super Saiyan and then they started building up power, if I’m not mistaken.

[BlueVegerot]

That was my assumption. Staying in super saiyan allowed them to get used to the form and save energy that would otherwise be used transforming however the reason they got so strong was because they sparred together for nearly a year while vegeta and trunks trained seperately

[Hugo Boss]

[spoiler]So goku tells caulifla he can't even go ssj1 in episode 113 but that he will "regain stamina by fighting", which makes very little sense and then apparently he is overwhelming both kale and caulifla in 114 and forces kale to go into her berserk form. So in 1 minute did goku get enough energy to go ssg or ssb or is his base form stronger than both of them combined?[/spoiler]

This is very similar to what happens in games. The more you fight, the more your energy bar increases. The more damaged you are, less energy you have.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Assuming Jiren isn't that much stronger than Blue Kaiokenx20, more around x30 or x40, how would he stack up against Merged Zamasu and Vegetto Blue? Anime and manga (though in the manga, he's probably just going to be stronger than Mastered Blue because Blue Kaioken isn't a thing there).

[LowRyder2005]

Assuming Jiren isn't that much stronger than Blue Kaiokenx20, more around x30 or x40, how would he stack up against Merged Zamasu and Vegetto Blue? Anime and manga (though in the manga, he's probably just going to be stronger than Mastered Blue because Blue Kaioken isn't a thing there).

Well, basic scaling rules would indicate that Metamoran Fusion is probably around 50 times the strength of the fusee; Potara reportedly gives power stronger than that, enough to make base Vegito stronger than SS3 Goku from the Buu arc per official sources (meaning Vegito should theoretically end up over 400 times stronger than base Goku). So that could be a potential answer: both Zamas and Vegito should therefore easily be above a *50 increase over probably the weakest fusee; hence unless Goku becomes a hundred of times stronger or more, regular SSB Vegito should comfortably end up even above the new form and Jiren. If the old indications still apply.

Now, to be fair, some people tend to believe the distance between Zamas and SSB + KK Goku should be more contained. Still, I think that given that the Zamas with the supposedly "unfathomable power" got bested by SSB Vegeta and regular Trunks working in tandem it shold be factored in with reference to some sort of strange CIS on his part and not actual inferiority. At his best, he's a match for Vegito, and Vegito isn't noted to be any weaker -- in fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed not to bloat the multipliers by making Vegito a >*400 of the current Goku, with the multiplier of Blue on top of that.
I made Vegito the same entity of the Buu saga; although I understand that with this rationale you could easily make him less severely above the current base Goku, depending . Ultimately it's up to interpretation, but I'd lean towards Vegito and Zamas being above everyone but the highest entities in the multiverse unless there are clear statements of Jiren's and New!Goku's supremacy over anything we've seen.

In the manga the story will probably be quite different, nevertheless. And relatively simpler. Jiren will almost surely be above MSSB Goku to justify the new form's injection in the underlying narrative, which means he will easily turn out to be stronger than that at least Merged Zamas -- who was clearly depicted as a pushover compared to Vegito and evenly matched with the empowered Goku.

(I just realized my use of pushover here might have been a conditioned response from glancing over your nickname).

[spoiler]So goku tells caulifla he can't even go ssj1 in episode 113 but that he will "regain stamina by fighting", which makes very little sense and then apparently he is overwhelming both kale and caulifla in 114 and forces kale to go into her berserk form. So in 1 minute did goku get enough energy to go ssg or ssb or is his base form stronger than both of them combined?[/spoiler]

This is very similar to what happens in games. The more you fight, the more your energy bar increases. The more damaged you are, less energy you have.

I think chances are that maybe the translation is slightly off and he just intends to regain some of his stamina "while fighting", as in engaging in combat by putting out less effort; I'm not sure if they'd really write the act of figthing as something would render him his lost stamina per se in a "fill a hyper move bar" sense.

[Bullza]

I would probably assume that Jiren and Goku's new form would be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

Goku getting a brand new form that surpasses his previous Super Saiyan Blue fusion would be just like Goku getting Super Saiyan God which surpassed the Super Saiyan (3) fusion.

It's supposed to be the norm that the next villain is stronger than the previous one too. If Jiren is meant to have unthinkably colossal ki well how unthinkable could it be if they'd​ already fought someone with more Ki?

And going by the manga Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu should be about as strong and weaker than Beerus. Jiren might still be the mortal stronger than the God of Destruction though.