Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueVegerot]

In the manga M Zamasu thought base form Vegeto was a new transformation and said " 1 hour should be enough to take you down". 30 seconds before he was absolutely dicking down SSB Goku and Vegeta so one could imply base form vegito > SSB Goku/Vegeta. SSB Vegito absolutely toyed with M Zamasu in his SSB form. Vegito you could probably scale to being SSB Goku KKx 400+ easily. I can't imagine Jiren is more than 400 times stronger than Goku. I think Vegeto would stomp

[BlueVegerot]

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/ ... index.html

Click on Jirens bio and it translates to Jirens power is on par/rivals God of Destruction

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/ ... index.html

Click on Jirens bio and it translates to Jirens power is on par/rivals God of Destruction

Well, we were only ever explicitly told that a mortal that "surpasses" a God of Destruction resides in Universe 4.

Jiren being EQUAL to a God of Destruction would neatly keep that line intact whilst also keeping Jiren's power as something incredible. I think we just found our ultimate compromise.

So, Goku has to reach the level of a God of Destruction to defeat Jiren through power.

[BlueVegerot]

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/ ... index.html

Click on Jirens bio and it translates to Jirens power is on par/rivals God of Destruction

Well, we were only ever explicitly told that a mortal that "surpasses" a God of Destruction resides in Universe 4.

Jiren being EQUAL to a God of Destruction would neatly keep that line intact whilst also keeping Jiren's power as something incredible. I think we just found our ultimate compromise.

So, Goku has to reach the level of a God of Destruction to defeat Jiren through power.

Whis said the mortal could not be DEFEATED by GoD not that the mortal was stronger. It could be some special ability of hax. Think of it like Future Zamasu, he was way weaker than all 3 saiyans but his immortality made him impossible to beat in a fight

[Hugo Boss]

Well, we were only ever explicitly told that a mortal that "surpasses" a God of Destruction resides in Universe 4.

Was it really confirmed that this mortal is from Universe 4? I just remember Quitela being the god who defeated Beerus in a arm wrestling.

[Ziegander]

It was NEVER explicitly told that the mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat is in Universe 4, let alone if that mortal is in the Tournament of Power or even if the Universe in which that mortal resides is even competing in the tournament.

The statement originally made by Whis was incredibly vague. He stated that a mortal exists that a God of Destruction can't defeat, and then goes on to say that whoever that God of Destruction is is stronger than Beerus. Then Beerus mentioned that he only lost once to [someone; clearly whoever Beerus imagines Whis to be talking about] in an arm wrestling match. Then the manga says that Quitela is the God of Destruction who beat Beerus at arm wrestling.

What we don't know is, well a lot. Whis may not have been talking about Quitela. Losing, once, in an arm wrestling match hardly means that the loser is overall weaker in fighting power/ki control/etc than the winner. We also don't know if the mortal in question is even from the same universe as the God of Destruction stronger than Beerus who cannot defeat said mortal.

What I will say, at this time, is that, if we include the manga, then in-universe, there does seem to be more evidence that would suggest the mortal stronger than a God resides in Universe 4, and is also competing in the Tournament of Power. What I will also is, out-of-universe, why hype up Jiren so much in marketing and everything if he is not the strongest badass at the tourney? I mean this guy shits on Goku. If there's a character at the tournament stronger than even Jiren, how in the hell does Universe 7 win? I guess they... don't? And then we have the mysterious episode 114 preview (IIRC) that states a new super warrior emerging, and certainly that, coupled with the fact that Beerus foreshadowed at least something shady with U4's missing fighters, lends credence to something else unforeseen happening in the tournament, but everything has gotten so wonky now. If there's a character that Limit Breaker Goku can't even defeat and then there's a character even stronger than that, I just don't see where this arc is going.

I... guess that's good?

[Bullza]

So Jiren is on the same level as a God of Destruction going by that.

If you mix and match with the manga then he should be around as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and a bit stronger than Merged Zamasu.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 would be weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito which is probably what should be true. Of course this all depends on how closely the anime and manga are in this regard.

[BlueVegerot]

Jiren is on par with Goku Black saga Vegeto Blue. Meaning Goku from the time that arc ended would have to get unimaginably stronger. I'm not sure his new form will do that

[AvatarReiko]

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/ ... index.html

Click on Jirens bio and it translates to Jirens power is on par/rivals God of Destruction

Well, we were only ever explicitly told that a mortal that "surpasses" a God of Destruction resides in Universe 4.

Jiren being EQUAL to a God of Destruction would neatly keep that line intact whilst also keeping Jiren's power as something incredible. I think we just found our ultimate compromise.

So, Goku has to reach the level of a God of Destruction to defeat Jiren through power.

But isn't that statement vague. I mean, we have seen that Gods of destruction vary in terms of power if the latest manga chapter is anything to go buy. For example, when Whis says that there is a mortal surpasses a GOD, is he using Beerus as a measuring stick or Sidra?

[LowRyder2005]

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/ ... index.html

Click on Jirens bio and it translates to Jirens power is on par/rivals God of Destruction

Well, we were only ever explicitly told that a mortal that "surpasses" a God of Destruction resides in Universe 4.

Jiren being EQUAL to a God of Destruction would neatly keep that line intact whilst also keeping Jiren's power as something incredible. I think we just found our ultimate compromise.

So, Goku has to reach the level of a God of Destruction to defeat Jiren through power.

But isn't that statement vague. I mean, we have seen that Gods of destruction vary in terms of power if the latest manga chapter is anything to go buy. For example, when Whis says that there is a mortal surpasses a GOD, is he using Beerus as a measuring stick or Sidra?

Yup, you'd do well to understand jumping the gun and being corrected three posts after is part of the charm of the thread... sort of.

Goku already has power rivaling "the gods" - said by the Hakaishin themselves - himself whenever he goes Blue. Freeza has been described as "more of a God of Destruction than Sidra". The statement looks absolutely meaningless on paper and is just a weasel word used to describe really powerful beings who are as strong or stronger than God/Blue, unless it's specified if he surpasses or happens to be on par with one or more of the actual, present Gods of Destruction.

[MagmonKai]

Didn't Manga Beerus already said Vegeta was at the level of a God or could be one in another universe? This seems to suggest that their power is not all equal. It varies, with beings like Beerus being the pinnacle of such scale.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've checked the description again, as translated by Ken Xyro.

It looks to me that the plural of God of Destruction is used. That means that Jiren's true strength is at the level of the Gods of Destruction, most likely within the range they occupy. Although there definitely ARE differences in power between them, it doesn't look like the differences are that significant. In the manga, Beerus only said that Vegeta could potentially be a lesser God of Destruction, and he only did so well against all the others in their free-for-all thanks to Whis's "free-of-thinking body movement".

For simplicity's sake, why not say that the level of a God of Destruction isn't a hugely varying range, and that Jiren occupies that same range?

[Lord Frieza]

1) How Jiren matchs up to Zamasu.

Hard to say but its not clear cut. One thing to remeber is that it was not Merged Zamasu that battled Vegito, but Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted). While he has lost his true immortality in this state his body still grows stronger from damage and he empowers himself with the "light of justice" all of which put him on Vegitos level and when he goes full power possible surpasses him. Normal Merged Zamasu was not that power due to the fact that while he was stronger then his current timeline counterpart Future Zamasu is still the weakest of the four and is never shown to get any stronger while Vegeta, Goku and Black all amkes some level of progesstion. What makes it harderd to accurtaly judge is that part of the fight is his screwing around and then his body starts to become unstable. However when SSBKK Goku kicks him in the face Zamasu appears enraged and the shock of his corrputopn seems to have passed. So Jiren is possible around Merged Zamasu's level or a bit stronger but I say weaker SSB Vegito and Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted) for the time being.

2) Power on par with the Gods of Destruction.

Anything said from the manga dose not automatically reflect what happens in the anime. As it stands Jiren is the only named mortal character in the anime who is offically stated to be of GoD level. Now yes not all the GoD are equal, for example Sidra was very likely the weakest of them but without them fighting and no solide statments made about their power its pretty up in the air as to what their limits are. Even to this day the limits of Beerus's power are unknown. Even the assassinastion attempt of Frieza do not help much as, while it suggests Sidra was likely weakest along with other factors, he clearly states to only have given the assassin a small amount of Hakai energy. not exactly a reliable stick to measure with.

Most likely Jiren's power is comrabale to his universes GoD, Belmod but Belmod's power in the anime is a total enigma as he has not fought anyone. so as it stands Jiren's power rivels their in general but the exact placment within their ranks is unkown.

[Marlowe89]

Anything said from the manga dose not automatically reflect what happens in the anime. As it stands Jiren is the only named mortal character in the anime who is offically stated to be of GoD level.

Aside from the Sidra/Frieza thing, you also have Toppo (the guy who was stated to be a God of Destruction candidate) fighting evenly with Goku and later expressing doubt about whether he could defeat him. The very fact that Toppo was considered at all for the title obviously suggests that their strength varies, otherwise there would be absolutely no narrative point in establishing something like that.

The only thing that the manga did was just confirm what we already knew from the anime.

It looks to me that the plural of God of Destruction is used.

There's no distinction between singular and plural for "Hakaishin", nor has there ever been. Both translations are equally valid/possible.

[Lord Frieza]

Anything said from the manga dose not automatically reflect what happens in the anime. As it stands Jiren is the only named mortal character in the anime who is offically stated to be of GoD level.

Aside from the Sidra/Frieza thing, you also have Toppo (the guy who was stated to be a God of Destruction candidate) fighting evenly with Goku and later expressing doubt about whether he could defeat him. The very fact that Toppo was considered at all for the title obviously suggests that their strength varies, otherwise there would be absolutely no narrative point in establishing something like that.

The only thing that the manga did was just confirm what we already knew from the anime.

I dont think so, Toppo's power is roughly on par with Goku's level sure but that dose not make him on the same level as a GoD. Being considered a candiate for becomeing a GoD dose not put you on their level. Whis offered both Goku and Vegeta the job when they were much weaker then they are now. Jiren is stated to be on their level and his power eclipses every other fighters.

[Marlowe89]

Being considered a candiate for becomeing a GoD dose not put you on their level.

You can't become a candidate for a role, especially in the context of Toppo being chosen externally, unless you were specifically qualified for that position.

So no, that's EXACTLY what it means. There's no evidence that the GoD range of power doesn't vary considerably and yet, on the other hand, a veritable ton of evidence in both mediums that it does.

[Lord Frieza]

Being considered a candiate for becomeing a GoD dose not put you on their level.

You can't become a candidate for a role, especially in the context of Toppo being chosen externally, unless you were specifically qualified for that position.

So no, that's EXACTLY what it means. There's no evidence that the GoD range of power doesn't vary considerably and yet, on the other hand, a veritable ton of evidence in both mediums that it does.

Vary considerable yes, that Goku or anyone else other then Jiren is withing that gods levels of power within the anime no.

As it stand one other then Jiren has been stated to be that strong and Vegito and Zamasu are only considered to be that powerful because of fusion and hax powers.

I will grant that their is the possibility that Goku with KK and Toppo might be on Sidra's but since we have no idea how strong he is either all aruguments fall flat on their face since none of the characters in ToP bar Jiren have any feats or statments to prove thats the case. You can quote the manga till the cows come home but nothing in the anime matchs up with them. Vegeta is never stated to be of a level that would make him a GoD for example. Infact the manga portrais a number of charcters as weaker then the anime counterparts, Hit and Zamasu being prime examples.

So in the anime they may rivel their power but currently Jiren is the only none fused character to rank besides them.

[Marlowe89]

I will grant that their is the possibility that Goku with KK and Toppo might be on Sidra's

Frieza was the one compared to Sidra, not Kaioken SSB Goku or Toppo -- both of whom could easily be stronger. Golden Frieza is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku who is on par with Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Again, to be a candidate for a role implicitly suggests that one is qualified for that role because that's precisely what candidacy MEANS in this case. The whole point was to emphasize Toppo's strength, which is exactly what made Goku excited to fight him.

There is absolutely nothing that implies the manga and anime are even remotely different in this regard. We already have one of the writers going on record to state that the anime attempts to make the power-scaling consistent with the outline, so why would there be a distinction? The anime already insinuated that these characters were qualified for at least the lower end of this spectrum and the manga just flat-out confirmed it.

Infact the manga portrais a number of charcters as weaker then the anime counterparts, Hit and Zamasu being prime examples.

For reasons I've outlined in the past, Hit is incredibly debatable because of the difference in how his ability functions. Fused Zamasu was only stronger in the anime because of an anime-exclusive form.

[BlueVegerot]

I don't think Freeza or Toppo are close to Sidra in power and I think he's one of the weaker hakaishins.

Sidra gave the dog a small amount of energy which the dog then split into 3 pieces and hit freeza with one. True Golden Freeza had to put in a good amount of effort in order to escape it and then compress it. Now SSB KKx20 Goku I think could be on par with Sidra if not beyond him

[pacz360]

I don't think Freeza or Toppo are close to Sidra in power and I think he's one of the weaker hakaishins.

Sidra gave the dog a small amount of energy which the dog then split into 3 pieces and hit freeza with one. True Golden Freeza had to put in a good amount of effort in order to escape it and then compress it. Now SSB KKx20 Goku I think could be on par with Sidra if not beyond him

Nah I'm pretty sure sidra is above that as well