Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

How is this possible when she couldn't even beat base Goku and even base Vegeta trashed her?

Well it shouldn't be. Vegeta just caught her off guard so that's not so much an issue.

In the end though, Vegeta did transform for her, Android 17 was pretty serious against her, Goku ran from her and turned Super Saiyan Blue for her and the others did say earlier that she was powerful and could win the whole thing.

So she ain't weak. It is odd how the fight went but I'd chalk that up to just being a bit odd.

Are you going to do another tier list like before? Really curious to see one now.

I think I'm ready to drop SbG now. Fuck it.

[ekrolo2]

How is this possible when she couldn't even beat base Goku and even base Vegeta trashed her?

Well it shouldn't be. Vegeta just caught her off guard so that's not so much an issue.

In the end though, Vegeta did transform for her, Android 17 was pretty serious against her, Goku ran from her and turned Super Saiyan Blue for her and the others did say earlier that she was powerful and could win the whole thing.

So she ain't weak. It is odd how the fight went but I'd chalk that up to just being a bit odd.

Are you going to do another tier list like before? Really curious to see one now.

I think I'm ready to drop SbG now. Fuck it.

You're dropping SbG? You feeling okay man?

[BlueVegerot]

Has there been any indication Goku has gotten significantly stronger in SSB since the goku black arc ended? Anime only?

I know he mentioned he had gotten rusty and needed to be "retrained" in episode 77 so i'm guessing that from the very end of goku black arc to start of ToP, goku blue form hadn't grown much if at all

[TAF108]

Man i really enjoyed your post, you should write a book about it, i would definitely read it! Anyways, yeah i agree with all these points. It just.. doesn't make sense. That's the central point. We can try to defend it all we want, but it doesn't matter and would be pointless, because in the end, the writers criminally just don't care. Hence why everything is plot related.

Glad you liked it. I just wanted to get it all out there, the things I've personally noticed. It's both nice and interesting to see people share that viewpoint.

[TAF108]

No reason to pretend they have levels all planned out. More likely than not they just receive general notes and alter each episode based around them.

Given some of the insights we've gleamed from Toshio's Twitter account, it's more than likely true that Toei doesn't actually dictate Super's power-scaling on their own; rather, the writing staff simply tries to abide by the scaling provided in Toriyama's general outlines as closely as possible, and given the variance in subjective interpretation for individual writers, that could very well lead to a number of outliers and smaller inconsistencies within the general macro framework of the show.

I actually don't believe that the current arc has been terribly inconsistent when viewed in isolation (although that's not to say there haven't been a few head-scratchers, namely Ribrianne for example) but some pretty noticeable problems start to pop up when you compare some of these sequences to the earlier arcs in Super, particularly the ones that weren't supervised by Toriyama. That's honestly one of the biggest reasons I subscribe to the retcon interpretation for Goku and Vegeta, personally -- after taking everything we know about the out-of-universe creative process and reconciling that with the in-universe facts, it just seems to be the most intuitively apparent explanation at the moment.

I see your point. It is likely that the real problem is making things cohesive long term. In the short term things are a bit more consistent.

[TAF108]

Then there's the God ki problem, where they try to make the concept seem incredibly important. But it only seems to matter, for the Saiyajins. All the Kaioshins had god ki and they were fodderized by Boo. Dende and Kami had god ki, or at least could sense it, and they're fodder. King Kai has god ki, and the same applies. Them introducing this concept, making all important and then making it irrelevant was a bad move.

Yeah the introduction of God Ki is irksome, when you realize that the Kai and Supreme Kai had it all along but it doesn't make them super powerful, despite being natural born Gods. Like you said it only seems to matter for the Saiyans, who developed a ritual to gain access to it, where others races like the Namekians who are more spiritual didn't.

That's a good point I didn't even consider the fact the Namekians have been portrayed in being more in line with the spiritual augmentation of ki. If divine ki should matter for anyone, it should be the Nameks.

[lord turbo]

Yes it’s based on a real martial arts discipline but it doesn’t magically make you stronger which is why it’s dumb. The core principle is that it would allow to react and counter to any attack meaning a bigger and stronger fight could be taken down by using both precision and momentum base attacks where you use the enemies own power against them. It’s a basic martial arts principle that anyone who has taken a single class would recognize. The problem is it doesn’t magically make you stronger just able to counter act. Nothing about mastery of the technique itself makes you stronger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

Other series have done this before, even western series like DC Comics has it as Muscle Memory from Wonder Woman and all that jazz. Funny enough, Karin and Mr. Popo already taught Goku this specific teaching, lol.

[TheMikado]

Yes it’s based on a real martial arts discipline but it doesn’t magically make you stronger which is why it’s dumb. The core principle is that it would allow to react and counter to any attack meaning a bigger and stronger fight could be taken down by using both precision and momentum base attacks where you use the enemies own power against them. It’s a basic martial arts principle that anyone who has taken a single class would recognize. The problem is it doesn’t magically make you stronger just able to counter act. Nothing about mastery of the technique itself makes you stronger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

Other series have done this before, even western series like DC Comics has it as Muscle Memory from Wonder Woman and all that jazz. Funny enough, Karin and Mr. Popo already taught Goku this specific teaching, lol.

I don’t see what was wrong about what I said?

[Bullza]

Are you going to do another tier list like before? Really curious to see one now.

I can have a go, it's still pretty tricky so I won't even bother with most of the Tournament fodder. Gohan is also pretty confusing so I only included him as Ultimate Gohan. Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan 3 Vegito could be anywhere in Tier 7-9.

Tier 1

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Tier 2

Vados
Whis

And all the other Angels.

Tier 3

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)

And all the others God's of Destruction.Who can say where Trunks is supposed to be.

Tier 4

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2 | Toppo

Tier 5

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Hit
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Tier 6

Giant Bergamo
Super Ribrianne
Ultimate Gohan | Android 17 | Ribrianne
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Some of these could be higher or lower yet.

Tier 7

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla

Black and Kale could possibly be higher. SSJ2 Future Trunks would be here somewhere. Maybe that Obuni too.

Tier 8

Zamasu
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta

Final Form Frieza could be higher or lower. SSJ Future Trunks would be somewhere here. Same with Maji Kayo

Tier 9

Final Form Frost
Jimeze
Kahseral
Base Goku | Vegeta | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Tier 10

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus ("Below 10%")
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

Tier 11

Piccolo
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Tagoma
Lavender
Basil
Super Saiyan Goten | Kid Trunks

This is where it seems that Gohan should be but then so would Goku and that doesn't make sense.

Tier 12

Android 18
Botamo
Goten | Kid Trunks
Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Android 18 could be higher. This is just based on her power in Z.

Tier 13

Shisami
Jaco

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I've come to the conclusion that US arc Goku & Future Trunks post Vegeta training have achieved SS2 Full Power like Vegeta did back in BoG, based on SS2 Trunks' fight with SSR Black & SS2 Goku's fight with U. Gohan, and the fact that he has completely abandoned SS3 now. Also, at least in the anime, Goku & Vegeta can use the SSG power in their base forms, based on their fights with Ribrianne. My guess is that Goku went base -> SS -> SS2 -> SSG -> base with God power -> SSB against Jiren. I'm not sure if all these hold true for the manga though, at least not yet.

[ZombieVito]

I've come to the conclusion that US arc Goku & Future Trunks post Vegeta training have achieved SS2 Full Power like Vegeta did back in BoG, based on SS2 Trunks' fight with SSR Black & SS2 Goku's fight with U. Gohan, and the fact that he has completely abandoned SS3 now. Also, at least in the anime, Goku & Vegeta can use the SSG power in their base forms, based on their fights with Ribrianne. My guess is that Goku went base -> SS -> SS2 -> SSG -> base with God power -> SSB against Jiren. I'm not sure if all these hold true for the manga though, at least not yet.

I do admit that it was strange that he depowered to base to turn Blue. Even weirder is that he didn't do this in episode 104 when he turned God.

Goku using Quake of Fury against Gohan isn't actually a bad idea.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Are you going to do another tier list like before? Really curious to see one now.

I can have a go, it's still pretty tricky so I won't even bother with most of the Tournament fodder. Gohan is also pretty confusing so I only included him as Ultimate Gohan. Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan 3 Vegito could be anywhere in Tier 7-9.

Tier 1

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Tier 2

Vados
Whis

And all the other Angels.

Tier 3

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)

And all the others God's of Destruction.Who can say where Trunks is supposed to be.

Tier 4

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2 | Toppo

Tier 5

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Hit
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Tier 6

Giant Bergamo
Super Ribrianne
Ultimate Gohan | Android 17 | Ribrianne
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Some of these could be higher or lower yet.

Tier 7

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla

Black and Kale could possibly be higher. SSJ2 Future Trunks would be here somewhere. Maybe that Obuni too.

Tier 8

Zamasu
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta

Final Form Frieza could be higher or lower. SSJ Future Trunks would be somewhere here. Same with Maji Kayo

Tier 9

Final Form Frost
Jimeze
Kahseral
Base Goku | Vegeta | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Tier 10

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus ("Below 10%")
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

Tier 11

Piccolo
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Tagoma
Lavender
Basil
Super Saiyan Goten | Kid Trunks

This is where it seems that Gohan should be but then so would Goku and that doesn't make sense.

Tier 12

Android 18
Botamo
Goten | Kid Trunks
Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Android 18 could be higher. This is just based on her power in Z.

Tier 13

Shisami
Jaco

Imo Hit should be in the same tier as Toppo. SSG/SSB Goku couldn't land a hit on Dyspo, but Hit was literally trolling Dyspo during their 2nd fight. The only reason why Hit was losing to Dyspo at the beginning of 104 was because Dyspo knew about Hit's abilities, but Hit didn't know about Dyspo's abilities, which gave Dyspo a massive unfair advantage.

Magetta should be in the same tier as SSJ2 Caulifla since SSJ Vegeta couldn't put a dent on him. Magetta might have subpar speed, but his durability seems to be at least SSJ3 level.

[lord turbo]

Yes it’s based on a real martial arts discipline but it doesn’t magically make you stronger which is why it’s dumb. The core principle is that it would allow to react and counter to any attack meaning a bigger and stronger fight could be taken down by using both precision and momentum base attacks where you use the enemies own power against them. It’s a basic martial arts principle that anyone who has taken a single class would recognize. The problem is it doesn’t magically make you stronger just able to counter act. Nothing about mastery of the technique itself makes you stronger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

Other series have done this before, even western series like DC Comics has it as Muscle Memory from Wonder Woman and all that jazz. Funny enough, Karin and Mr. Popo already taught Goku this specific teaching, lol.

I don’t see what was wrong about what I said?

I don't believe I did so...?

Edit: I just noticed I had the eye rolling emoji, my mistake, don't remember ever putting it there.

Also, for the episodes Kuririn irritated me some, especially repeating the same non-canonical line from DBZ Movie 67about SSJs and Genki Dama and how he acted like he knew what was going on when he can't even sense god ki to gauge levels. What's more he recreated Tien's dialogue from the Freeza arc about Goku using KKx20, complete with Beerus repeating King Kai's line that Goku is already using thay very level of Kaioken.

Also, Ribrianne annoys me, she's such a one trick pony I wish someone would hurry the hell up and throw this fat broad out the ring already.

[avasatu]

Merged Zamasu, even at his best, is well below Beerus, and thus Jiren. I don’t think it’s worth adding an extra tier, unless it contains just him and maybe Sword of Hope Trunks, but I don’t put those 2 on the same level
of power as Jiren and Beerus. It’s possible they’re near Imperfect Base Ultra Instinct Goku, but even that seems debatable.

What do you guys think?

[Sora Saiyan]

Yes it’s based on a real martial arts discipline but it doesn’t magically make you stronger which is why it’s dumb. The core principle is that it would allow to react and counter to any attack meaning a bigger and stronger fight could be taken down by using both precision and momentum base attacks where you use the enemies own power against them. It’s a basic martial arts principle that anyone who has taken a single class would recognize. The problem is it doesn’t magically make you stronger just able to counter act. Nothing about mastery of the technique itself makes you stronger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

Other series have done this before, even western series like DC Comics has it as Muscle Memory from Wonder Woman and all that jazz. Funny enough, Karin and Mr. Popo already taught Goku this specific teaching, lol.

Judging by what was shown in this episode I think it was more than the simple muscle memory explanation, and akin to the body finding a way of manoeuvring around something in any way possible, which could be in a way Goku has never moved before. It's like every part of his body has a brain that will always find best way possible to manoeuvre (Whis says it "enables you to escape any danger that may arise"). It feels like some kind of precognition, it's not, I know, and I need to see him against somebody much faster than himself to find out if its all that. Like can the body react to basically anything now? Almost regardless of how fast? Be interesting to find out.

Btw Goku powered up because he broke through his limits, nothing to do with the technique.

[Liquir]

There goes the Idea The Grand Priest being the Ultimate Being in the DBS. Wasn't even able to detect that Goku was still alive and under the rubble. Not an omniscient being. Zarama remains the only candidate for it, unless they introduce another being above Zeno.

[BlueVegerot]

How would you scale SS Rose Goku Black in comparison to current SSB Vegeta & Goku and True Golden Freeza

[lord turbo]

Yes it’s based on a real martial arts discipline but it doesn’t magically make you stronger which is why it’s dumb. The core principle is that it would allow to react and counter to any attack meaning a bigger and stronger fight could be taken down by using both precision and momentum base attacks where you use the enemies own power against them. It’s a basic martial arts principle that anyone who has taken a single class would recognize. The problem is it doesn’t magically make you stronger just able to counter act. Nothing about mastery of the technique itself makes you stronger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

Other series have done this before, even western series like DC Comics has it as Muscle Memory from Wonder Woman and all that jazz. Funny enough, Karin and Mr. Popo already taught Goku this specific teaching, lol.

Judging by what was shown in this episode I think it was more than the simple muscle memory explanation, and akin to the body finding a way of manoeuvring around something in any way possible, which could be in a way Goku has never moved before. It's like every part of his body has a brain that will always find best way possible to manoeuvre (Whis says it "enables you to escape any danger that may arise"). It feels like some kind of precognition, it's not, I know, and I need to see him against somebody much faster than himself to find out if its all that. Like can the body react to basically anything now? Almost regardless of how fast? Be interesting to find out.

Btw Goku powered up because he broke through his limits, nothing to do with the technique.

That's what MM is for western series, it allows them to move, dodge, and react without thinking about it. Takamura does the exact same thing in his fight against Brian Hawk from Hajime no Ippo without being conscikus or aware if what he's doing. Mushin is essentially all that stuff in one. Judging on the fictional series its called different thinga, bit it all boils fown to it being their version if Mushin in the end.

[pacz360]

Heres my tier list
Tier1
Zeno
Grand priest
Tier 2
Angel's
Tier 3
Arak, liquor, gin, iwan,Jiren, LB goku, ssjb vegito, ,vermoud,beerus, champa,genki sword trunks, M . zamasu, rest of the God's
Tier 4
Base merged zamasu Ssjb kkx20 goku, ssjb kk goku, FP toppo
Tier 5
Ssjb goku, ssjb vegeta, Golden freeza, base toppo, Hit, ssjr goku black, ikari trunks
Tier 6
Amped bergamo,Ultimate gohan,17 beserker kale, Ribrianne, dyspo,obuni, base goku black( post zenkai),ss2 trunks (post training) future zamasu, ssj god goku, maji kayo

[avasatu]

How would you scale SS Rose Goku Black in comparison to current SSB Vegeta & Goku and True Golden Freeza

SSRose Black gets stomped by SSB Zamasu-arc Goku and Vegeta (they were one shotting his clones, and forced him to merge), so utterly curbstomped by current SSBs.