Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

I've come to the conclusion that US arc Goku & Future Trunks post Vegeta training have achieved SS2 Full Power like Vegeta did back in BoG, based on SS2 Trunks' fight with SSR Black & SS2 Goku's fight with U. Gohan, and the fact that he has completely abandoned SS3 now. Also, at least in the anime, Goku & Vegeta can use the SSG power in their base forms, based on their fights with Ribrianne. My guess is that Goku went base -> SS -> SS2 -> SSG -> base with God power -> SSB against Jiren. I'm not sure if all these hold true for the manga though, at least not yet.

I do admit that it was strange that he depowered to base to turn Blue. Even weirder is that he didn't do this in episode 104 when he turned God.

Goku using Quake of Fury against Gohan isn't actually a bad idea.

It appears to me that Goku & (Copy) Vegeta use their base with God power state when he holds back against powerful opponents (like SS3 Gotenks, Slim Boo, and Ribrianne), but when he wants to go all out he goes SSG. So, instead of going SSG and using 5% or 60% of its power, he does that while in his base form with God power.

As for SS2, Ultimate Gohan was originally several times stronger than SS3 Goku, and now he was even stronger than he was. It doesn't make sense for Goku to be giving him trouble in his SS2 form, but if Goku has made his SS2 form stronger than Ultimate Gohan originally was, like SS2 Vegeta surpassed Ultimate Gohan in BoG, it makes much more sense since we see how they both improved.

To be honest, I think it's easier to chalk that SS2 Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan battle as both were starting out slow. Ultimate Gohan was using the power that would keep up with SS2 Goku.

How would people classify SSRage?

1) Is it an evolution of SS2 like SS3 is?

2) Is it an evolution of SS1 Grade 3?

More like SS3. SS Grades 2 & 3 don't draw out dormant powers, they use the SS power pump the muscles, amplifying the user's power. SS2 & SS3 draw out more dormant powers than SS does. SSRage seems to be drawing SSB dormant powers, but not all of them. It also seems to drain at least more stamina than SS2 does, since after going all out & beating SSR Black (or so he thought), Trunks powered down to SS2 in order to fight Future Zamasu.

Yep, I would agree with that. It would be interesting because one could say Saiyans like Cabba and Caulifla could achieve SSRage instead of SS3, after SS2.

Before FnF & SSB, Toriyama said that after his fight with Beerus, Goku would focus training on his base & SS forms to master them, and then when FnF came out, SSB was treated as Goku's & Vegeta's new upgraded SS form. Goku's SS form had a really small & insignificant multiplier in BoG when he absorbed the power of SSG, so seeing Black's evolution in the manga to SSR, it seems that SSB/R is achieved by absorbing the power of SSG, then training in SS form to slowly increase the multiplier, and when it finally reaches its limit, it changes into Blue/Rose.

In a post above I described my feelings on all of this, but I will say it more simply here.

Essentially, we have situations where Goku's Base form is really strong, situations where Goku's Base form is weak, situations where he uses SSGod, situations where he uses SSBlue, and the Godly SS1 from Ep. 14.

1) Pre-SSG ritual: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3.
2) The Battle of Gods: Goku has SSGod.
3) After time expires: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/Godly SS1. Because the SSGod power absorbed into his Base and SS1
4) Training with Whis: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/SSBlue. Learning to perfect ki control in the Godly SS1 form resulted in the form changing into SSBlue. So, Godly SS1 + Perfect Ki Control (God Ki) = SSBlue
5) The ToP: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue. He learned to perfect the ki control in his Godly Base, which changed it into SSGod.

Having Godly Base/SBG BE the same thing as SSGod works well. The Godly SS1 from Ep. 14 BEING SSBlue works well too. When Godly SS1 was gone, SSBlue arrived. Then we had Godly Base for a while, until SSGod re-entered and Godly Base was gone. This also encompasses perfect ki control and how Whis' training works in all of this. Goku Black could be considered to have Godly Base/SBG, but not SSGod, which is why his Base form was so strong. He had the Goku of that timeline's SSBlue though, because that Goku had perfected the ki control of Godly SS1, but not the Godly Base yet. The perfection of the Godly Base probably came with the training for ToP. This also includes what Toriyama said about training Base and SS1 forms being a huge focus.

I feel like this captures everything.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Haven't posted in a while. What y'all think about Hit leaving a crater on Jiren's chest? I thought Hit would be a fly seeing as how Jiren bodied Kaioken x 20 and seemed to be supressed against Goku's new form... weird. Maybe Hit improved again... doing better than Goku blue Kaioken x20.

[Bullza]

Yeah kinda strange that Hit was even able to hit Jiren at all considering that Goku couldn't even with the Kaioken x20. He only even hit him once with Ultra Instinct as well.

I still have him as being a bit lower than just the ordinary Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he should get completely destroyed. I'd hope not though.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Pressure points can perform miracles.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, the entire point of whis' statement was to explain why exactly Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Hit in the first place to Beerus which serves as a reference point for the audience, we don't know how much lower Vegeta was other than somewhere below 10% his full power, if it was anymore it would have been worded differently and specificed as such, to say otherwise would just be baseless speculation.

Which is... again, exactly what I've said? What are you even trying to imply here? You sure you aren't simply wasting our time over some compulsive "last word" need? Especially considering that in the very first post you've quoted I had already made my point clear about what the less than 10% statement entailed to. He's "below 10%" even when at full power alright and not explicitly "very close to 10%". Gotta say that "less than less than 10%" is a pretty funny pleonasm, though.

Plus, like I said, you don't even technically know what percentage of Vegeta's power was used specifically against Hit. Whis just says that Vegeta couldn't even exert 10% of his power in the fight (if he wanted to); he doesn't say "Vegeta was using 10% of his strength against Hit or something relatively close" verbatim. So Vegeta could've potentially been using any low percentage of his strength during his brief fight against Hit as long as it was less than 10%, which is just his maximum potential output. And the statement still makes plenty of sense. So there's no compulsive reason to keep SSG a *10 increase over SS in the manga (I'd also say it sounds improbable given that Fusion is said to be many tens of times the strength of a single fusee, so you'd also need to add the extra condition of the multipliers changing). This to conclude, again, that you can make the Vegeta who's fighting Hit any random percentage of Hit's or Vegeta's full power without even remotely contradicting Whis' words, which actually are not as clarifying as what a lot of people seem to believe through the act of directly or indirectly over-simplifying the phrasing. The baseless speculations are entirely on your part.

I have no idea what series you're watching since DBS showed Gohan no stronger than Lavenda and struggling to overpower and beat him as a SSJ before the poison kicked in and started affecting his performance. The second part about Vegeta's increases is your head-canon for the simple fact we don't know what the SSJ increases/multipliers actually are in the show or if they are even remotely the same across the board for everyone else, especially when the series flips flops on the boost SSJ forms from being small/slight to several tens of times greater than base. My personal feelings about if I find the writing from DBS to be shit or narrative breaking is irrelevant to the writers of DBS.

*sigh* Pretty sure I should say that, since like I said you look completely off the mark and your example about Gohan definitely felt like the most egregiously wrong. But since you clearly want me to waste my time going over something you'd only need to re-watch once, okay, I'll bite.
First off, there's every implication that the Super Saiyan Gohan post-Black is equal to at least a suppressed Super Saiyan Goku while being weaksauce to Piccolo, that #18 is relative or above the base Saiyans and that the Gohan seen around the post-Black arc is below his Cell Game self. These should almost certainly act as premises, or at least these are a bunch among the most evident power-related notions in the show.

In the episode before the one with Lavenda vs. Gohan, Lavenda tells the audience he will try to kill Gohan with a clear aura of impatience, so the hypothesis he is taking it easy with Gohan looks somewhat dubious already. Let's get to the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0zHaKn450

Base Gohan and Lavenda clash in the beginning and no one can get the upper hand on the another.
The poison clearly starts hurting Gohan way before he turns Super Saiyan: the same poison is implied to "gradually rot his body". Gohan starts feeling wobbly, loses his balance and finally starting to get visibly hurt by Lavenda's poisonous hits at around 0.45, while Lavenda keeps taunting him about "how he likes his poison", Ro adding "enjoy writhing from that poison". It means that the effects of the poison are already kicking in at that point, these probably including "rotting Gohan's body" -- thus making him weaker. The poison works instantly, Super Saiyan just worsens the symptoms. This, I think, unless you want to believe that Lavenda is only referencing Gohan's blindness, is absolutely plain to see for anyone who can even remotely read context. Yet, the moment Lavenda tries to attack him (Lavenda possessing non-perceivable ki, going certainly again for the kill and again with no actual reason to hold back) after Gohan finds the means to anticipate him, the same base Gohan - probably already somewhat weaker - kicks him around like a ragdoll with no effort. Lavenda then goes for zoning the blind Gohan, the implication obviously being it's his best option at that point... because base Gohan still has the edge when blinded and in hand-to-hand combat. Gohan apparently has no reason to turn Super Saiyan if not for using his ki as a radar, also suggesting that he's probably weakening, still blinded, or potentially not even going all out. With the poison sapping his strength EVEN MORE when he's Super Saiyan - which is probably the only reason why Lavenda is able to survive or go toe to toe with Gohan in general - Gohan still technically defeats Lavenda.

While I'm convinced the fight spells out for you that base Gohan is already too much for Lavenda, let's even leave aside the combat and Lavenda's words, now. In general, trying to be rational, I should stress more precisely this: what the hell is the point for Lavenda using poison to get the advantage on base Gohan if he's Super Saiyan tier(!) and remarks all the time how he wants to kill him ("you don't need to tell me to kill him")? He could kill him already from the get-go with absolutely no issue. He's not even implied to be someone who takes pleasure into torturing the foe, he literally talks like someone who wants to kill the opponent as some urge.
I'll leave aside some "in my opinion(s)" and flat-out tell you Lavenda is most definitely base Gohan tier and that if you think he's even remotely close to a serious, non-tired Super Saiyan Gohan I reckon you are quite mistaken.

I also want to make a note of your style and format. What's most off here is that you keep pointing out "headcanon here", "headcanon there" while your examples are usually a mixture of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance over what you perceive to be the case on whatever issue you're analyzing. If every time you get in this thread (or every other time you post in general about power levels, in my experience) you dish out stocks of logical leaps with the intention of correcting or filling the gaps for everyone else expect not only to be called out on it, but also not to satisfy anyone since you're not gonna possibly correct answers you do not share. You're just bound to add your flavor of personal explanations while failing to communicate your ideas effectively. Of course, while it's probably not completely possible to remove inherent bias from any opinion, one can make an active effort at being open-minded. In this thread a lot of us plainly disagree with one another, but I found out that almost everyone has at least learned how to be reasonably assertive.
On the matter of opinions, I had also never stated that it was anything more than my "opinion" - more than what I can say for this stream of bold conclusions over everything you see - so I don't understand this remark about being my "headcanon" as if it's supposed to be something "less worthy of an opinion", or with the intent to weaken my argument when it doesn't add anything worthwhile to which I had already stated. The usual paradox is adding your equally gratuitous opinion ("multipliers changing") as if it was another official premise, which only reinforces the notion you have serious problems with bias (using it as an all-encompassive theme for double standards, cognitive dissonance-related issues when communicating ideas, leaps in logic etc.) as far as I'm concerned. Regarding the multipliers not being that volatile in the manga it's my opinion, yes, but I think it's also well-grounded in reality and I feel like I've every reason to believe it might be closer to the mind of the author. You're free to think reality might different, but unless you want me to symmetrically answer "well, that the multipliers changed is also your headcanon" you'd do well to repackage your position.

'kay. Let's see if now that I've been forced to wallpost you can make a suitable answer without four dozens quotes and sticking to the point. Can you please keep it surmised and neat? As a matter of fact, I have a master's thesis to write - I'm quite behind it, in fact - and I'd rather not lose half-hours going again over basically pointless clarifications.

[BlueVegerot]

Techniques have been getting so much play this entire arc so I'm not surprised Hit is doing better than SSB KKx20 goku.

Also expect the power scale in this tournament to get shaken up in episode 114 when a "new warrior will be born" - most like Kale gets some new form and she's made to be > UI Goku

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Techniques have been getting so much play this entire arc so I'm not surprised Hit is doing better than SSB KKx20 goku.

Also expect the power scale in this tournament to get shaken up in episode 114 when a "new warrior will be born" - most like Kale gets some new form and she's made to be > UI Goku

You joke, but the recent merchandise tease tells me a new female fighter is coming into play somehow.

[BlueVegerot]

Techniques have been getting so much play this entire arc so I'm not surprised Hit is doing better than SSB KKx20 goku.

Also expect the power scale in this tournament to get shaken up in episode 114 when a "new warrior will be born" - most like Kale gets some new form and she's made to be > UI Goku

You joke, but the recent merchandise tease tells me a new female fighter is coming into play somehow.

They want to push her real bad and the episode where a "new fighter is born" is 114 where she is fighting Goku. Tommorow's WSJ should confirm.

[lord turbo]

Which is... again, exactly what I've said? What are you even trying to imply here? You sure you aren't simply wasting our time over some compulsive "last word" need? Especially considering that in the very first post you've quoted I had already made my point clear about what the less than 10% statement entailed to. He's "below 10%" alright and not "very close to 10%". Gotta say that "less than less than 10%" is a pretty funny pleonasm, though.

I don't know, its like you're trying to imply Vegeta could be lower than 10% to say even 5%, or even 1%, or even lower, but if that's the case you have no problem with Vegeta being say 5x, 10x, 20x, or higherthan Goku in the same forms since he's much stronger than Black in the same form that was stated by Trunks to be way way higher than his full power, not very close, if not and you have a problem with this does the term hypocrisy ring a bell to you?

Plus, like I said you don't even technically know what percentage of Vegeta's power was used specifically against Hit. Whis just says that Vegeta couldn't even exert 10% of his power in the fight (if he wanted to); he doesn't say "Vegeta was using 10% of his strength against Hit or something relatively close" verbatim.

pedantic much? Vegeta's trying his hardest at what ever percentage is lower than 10% which is already stated, what are you even trying to say here?

So Vegeta could've potentially been using any low percentage of his strength during his brief fight against Hit as long as it was less than 10%, which is just his maximum potential output. And the statement still makes plenty of sense. So there's no compulsive reason to keep SSG a *10 increase over SS in the manga (I'd also say it sounds improbable given that Fusion is said to be many tens of times the strength of a single fusee, so you'd also need to add the extra condition of the multipliers changing).

I just want to point out there is already heavy implications of this in the Buu Saga and this is flat out shown during the U6 tournament where Cabba and Vegeta are stated and shown to be equal in base form (both manga and anime), yet Vegeta's SSJ is explicitly shown significantly stronger than Cabba's SSJ. To go further Goku and Gohan's SSJ energy is stated to be different by Vegeta as the energy associated with SSJ is altered and not the same as before. This is confirms by the Daizenshuu even mentioning the aura of it is different, hell even the name itself full power SSJ implies they weren't using the full extent of SSJ itself beforehand.

I have *sigh* Pretty sure I should say that, since like I said you look completely off the mark and your example about Gohan definitely felt like the most egregiously wrong. But since you clearly want me to waste my time going over something you'd only need to re-watch once, okay, I'll bite.
First off, there's every implication that Super Saiyan Gohan is equal to at least a suppressed Super Saiyan Goku, that #18 is relative or above the base Saiyans and that the Gohan seen around the post-Black arc is below his Cell Game self. These should almost certainly act as premises, or at least this are some of the most explicit power-related notions in the show.

What does Goku sand banging immensely against Gohan in equal forms proves again exactly, especially when we see the same Goku in his base form fight comfortably on par with a stronger and faster trained Mr. Buu or stop Piccolo's very long charged ki wave with his bare hands in base form, you know the same Piccolo that choked the hell out of SSJ2 Gohan earlier? As for 18, more inconclusive assumptions based on a character that has been sand bagging left and right through out the whole tournament to the point you can't accurately decipher his level compared to others such as base Goku shown fighting on par with a stronger form of Ribrianne who in a weaker form was shown fighting on par with SSJ Vegeta and 17 (Even shattering his barrier in one punch) earlier.

Now In the episode before the one, Lavenda tells the audience he will try to kill Gohan with a clear aura of impatience, so the hypothesis he is taking it easy with Gohan looks somewhat dubious already.
Base Gohan and Lavenda clash in the beginning and no one can get the upper hand on one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0zHaKn450

And as to the "why you're totally wrong" part of my speech, the poison clearly starts hurting Gohan way before he turns Super Saiyan: the same potion is implied to "gradually rot his body" and Gohan starts feeling wobbly, losing his balance and finally starting to get visibly hurt by Lavenda's hits at around 0.45, while Lavenda keeps taunting him about "how he likes his poison", meaning that the effects of the poison are already kicking in at that point, these probably including "rotting Gohan's body" -- thus making him weaker. The poison works instantly, Super Saiyan just worsens the symptoms. This, I think, unless you want to believe that Lavenda is only talking about Gohan's blindness, is absolutely plain to see for anyone who can even remotely read context. And yet the moment Lavenda tries to attack him (Lavenda possessing non-perceivable ki, going certainly again for the kill and again with no actual reason to hold back) base Gohan kicks him around like a ragdoll with no effort. Lavenda then goes for zoning the blind Gohan, the implication obviously being it's his best option at that point... because base Gohan still has the edge when blinded and in hand-to-hand combat. Gohan apparently has no reason to turn Super Saiyan if not for using his ki as a radar, also suggesting that he's probably weakening, still blinded, or potentially not even going all out. With the poison sapping his strength EVEN MORE when he's Super Saiyan - which is probably the only reason why Lavenda is able to survive or go toe to toe with Gohan in general - Gohan still technically defeats Lavenda.

You neglected to mention the poison removing Gohan's sight enhanced his other senses making him fight better, Gohan kicking Lavenda around with enhance senses, yet doing no significant to lasting damage means nothing. When Lavenda attacks from a distance Gohan is forced to use SSJ to find his location. This is bad since in the same fight its mentioned SSJ only boost Gohan's power a little which is shown immediately by Lavenda and SSJ Gohan locking horns and neither one having an advantage over the other with Lavenda laughing maniacally with joy (no different than non-blinded base Gohan vs. Lavenda earlier) and Gohan has no reason to hold back here as he's trying to end the fight so. Its only after sometime he turns SSJ does the poison kick in an adversely affect his performance as he stops in mid attack and loses SSJ when he tried to rush and finish off and off-guard Lavenda. Turning SSJ accelerated the slow process of the poison making it rapidly spread through his body (A fact you neglected to mention), Gohan only beat Lavenda when he caught him off guard (Stated) by the way in a series were fodder (Sorbet) can oneshot characters when caught off guard.

As for why Lavenda is using poison to begin with? Oh I don't know, maybe its his main fighting style to begin with, regardless of the level of the character he's facing...?

What's most off here is that you keep pointing out "headcanon here", "headcanon there" while your examples are usually a mixture of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance over what you perceive to be the case over whatever issue you're analyzing. If every time you get in this thread (or every other time you post in general about power levels) you dish out logical leaps with the intention of correcting or filling the gaps for other people expect to be called out for it, you are not gonna possibly correct answers you do not share - but still technically logical answers. You'll just add your flavor of personal explanations while failing to communicate your ideas effectively. Of course, while it's probably not completely possible to remove inherent bias from any opinion, one can make an active effort at being open-minded... and I really think it's something you may just lack.

Hypocrite much, you're the one that tends to go off on confirmation bias every time you disagree with someone's viewpoint and add "your misinterpretation is off, allow me to show my interpretation that makes sense and fits the narrative according to my head canon". For example, "Der, SSJB Goku isn't 10x stronger than SSJB KKx10 even though he's shown to be. "Derrrr, Golden Freeza isn't any stronger, just better stamina and energy control skills according to my head canon even though its blatantly pointed out several times Freeza has gotten stronger than before".

You have a very hard headed approach to power levels that are spelled out simple and straight forward where you need to be spoonfed information for it to be viable to your head-canon to the point you're pedantic and contrarian for the sake of it like the Vegeta being hundreds/thousands of times stronger than Goku during the Black saga based off the narrative you built up in your head. Do you like arguing for the hell of it so you can listen to the sound of your own voice or something to stroke that self-entitled bloated ego of yours?

[LowRyder2005]

I don't know, its like you're trying to imply Vegeta could be lower than 10% to say even 5%, or even 1%, or even lower, but if that's the case you have no problem with Vegeta being say 5x, 10x, 20x, or higherthan Goku in the same forms since he's much stronger than Black in the same form that was stated by Trunks to be way way higher than his full power, not very close, if not and you have a problem with this does the term hypocrisy ring a bell to you?

pedantic much? Vegeta's trying his hardest at what ever percentage is lower than 10% which is already stated, what are you even trying to say here?

Yet again, I don't see where I said I have actual problems with it, it's just something I'm not willing to buy because I don't really see Toyotaro making this kind of scenario in his own mind. It's more like you are trying to force me to accept it as the one hypothesis which makes sense. If you think it makes sense, good for you; instinctively, I don't think it does and while I'm not excluding the possibility I deem it fairly improbable.
Regarding Vegeta, it's just because it's what it's directly stated. If I say "you can't even reach 100 km/h" while driving, I'm not saying "you can definitely reach 40 km/h". You also don't know even know how fast Vegeta was going at that point. Of course the statement would be relatively more accurate, but you have no logical grounds to make conclusions about it. Again, you're the one who seems unable to separate his suppositions from the actual evidence at hand, conflating your personal conclusions with "logic". Vegeta might have also been shot down by Hit before he was actually using his 10% and that Whis just deduced it. Again, no biggie.

I just want to point out there is already heavy implications of this in the Buu Saga and this is flat out shown during the U6 tournament where Cabba and Vegeta are stated and shown to be equal in base form (both manga and anime), yet Vegeta's SSJ is explicitly shown significantly stronger than Cabba's SSJ. To go further Goku and Gohan's SSJ energy is stated to be different by Vegeta as the energy associated with SSJ is altered and not the same as before. This is confirms by the Daizenshuu even mentioning the aura of it is different, hell even the name itself full power SSJ implies they weren't using the full extent of SSJ itself beforehand.

Vegeta might have also lied, or the differential between their bases could've been minimum, but amplified by a 50-fold increase could become considerable. Or Cabba was unable to control his stamina, and so on. Just sayin', eh. Your deductions are no better than these.
I frankly don't care about anything of this stuff you keep inserting randomly from the Buu saga and before: these are all personal deductions of yours you're trying to present as evidence. If you find a statement from a guidebook about the multipliers changing that much it'd be another story.

What does Goku sand banging immensely against Gohan in equal forms proves again exactly, especially when we see the same Goku in his base form fight comfortably on par with a stronger and faster trained Mr. Buu or stop Piccolo's very long charged ki wave with his bare hands in base form, you know the same Piccolo that choked the hell out of SSJ2 Gohan earlier? As for 18, more inconclusive assumptions based on a character that has been sand bagging left and right through out the whole tournament to the point you can't accurately decipher his level compared to others such as base Goku shown fighting on par with a stronger form of Ribrianne who in a weaker form was shown fighting on par with SSJ Vegeta and 17 (Even shattering his barrier in one punch) earlier.

If Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan it should obviously mean Super Saiyan Gohan is above his base. I don't see how it does make any theoretical sense for Goku to go from 1 to 50 and then revert randomly to a level below his base form, like a 0.1; this is simply an idea having to do with Goku at least acting rationally. It wouldn't also make much sense to reach a Super Saiyan level overall below his base form to me if he could just power up in base, while this looks somewhat more possible. If you think Goku isn't acting rationally at that point believe what you will, but any of your argument becomes even more paper-thin.
Goku is visibly getting hurt against Tupper, what reason does he have to let himself get hurt when he could power up in base and free himself? And this is even before Tupper starts raising his weight, this is when Tupper just grabs base Goku. Tupper is relative to base Goku's strength since he's strong enough to bind him, #18 can hurt Tupper. No way Goku is hundreds or even dozens of times stronger than both.

You're also trying to act like you're being super partes and yet you're automatically implying I should assume Ribrianne's power cannot be the one which fluctuate. Again, more double standards and fallacious reasoning, but okay. By the way, Vegeta doesn't transform to handle Ribrianne, he just happens to briefly fight her in SS (over the span of seconds). So again, the most reasonable deduction could be that Vegeta was pulling his punches for whatever reason. Or, again, Ribrianne's power could fluctuate with her "super form" just being played for the laughs.

Neither Buu nor Piccolo has any actual reason to kill or hurt Goku, so if Buu/ Piccolo was above Goku they would've suppressed himself already since they have no reason to injure Goku; furthermore, Piccolo is just testing what kind of tactics are supposed to work in a battle royale. It's literally a simulation of a fight where nobody tries to get anyone hurt until Goku vs. Gohan. Besides, not only are those examples irrelevant as it stands you give some silly precedence you give to spars compared to actual fights. Piccolo is stronger than SS2 Gohan, and the same Gohan was lastly described as not possessing even the same power he had in the Cell Game, and that Super Saiyan Gohan is supposed to be above Goku.

You neglected to mention the poison removing Gohan's sight enhanced his other senses making him fight better, Gohan kicking Lavenda around with enhance senses, yet doing no significant to lasting damage means nothing. When Lavenda attacks from a distance Gohan is forced to use SSJ to find his location. This is bad since in the same fight its mentioned SSJ only boost Gohan's power a little which is shown immediately by Lavenda and SSJ Gohan locking horns and neither one having an advantage over the other with Lavenda laughing maniacally with joy (no different than non-blinded base Gohan vs. Lavenda earlier) and Gohan has no reason to hold back here as he's trying to end the fight so. Its only after sometime he turns SSJ does the poison kick in an adversely affect his performance as he stops in mid attack and loses SSJ when he tried to rush and finish off and off-guard Lavenda.

As for why Lavenda is using poison to begin with? Oh I don't know, maybe its his main fighting style to begin with, regardless of the level of the character he's facing...?

Number 1, fighting better doesn't mean "magically raising his power level". Number 2, Super Saiyan boosts your power 50 times unless you have actual evidence it can somehow decrease.
And still not answering my question: you're implying Lavenda has all the raw power he needs to beat Gohan even without using the poison. Then you say base Gohan "fighting better" can beat the crap out of Lavenda? So what is it? Is he stronger or weaker? Because you're contradicting yourself with every phrase.

Turning SSJ accelerated the slow process of the poison making it rapidly spread through his body (A fact you neglected to mention), Gohan only beat Lavenda when he caught him off guard (Stated) by the way in a series were fodder (Sorbet) can oneshot characters when caught off guard.

ROFL. I did, maybe it's you who can't read attentively enough.
"With the poison sapping his strength EVEN MORE when he's Super Saiyan - which is probably the only reason why Lavenda is able to survive or go toe to toe with Gohan in general - Gohan still technically defeats Lavenda." Okay, let's even assume Gohan beating up Lavenda in base form is a fluke because Lavenda dropped his guard. I'm still waiting for your reasoning on how Gohan can survive a Lavenda who - as far as you know - can't wait to kill him the moment Lavenda lays a single hand on him, why Lavenda prefers to zone him out instead of getting serious and impale him on the spot Gero-style if he's as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan is and Gohan beating him up was just a momentary lucky shot; why does Lavenda use poison at all, when, being many times Gohan's strength he could just beat him to a pulp in two or three blows with sheer physical strength, etc.

Hypocrite much, you're the one that tends to go off on confirmation bias every time you disagree with someone's viewpoint and add "your misinterpretation is off, allow me to show my interpretation that makes sense and fits the narrative according to my head canon". For example, "Der, SSJB Goku isn't 10x stronger than SSJB KKx10 even though he's shown to be. "Derrrr, Golden Freeza isn't any stronger, just better stamina and energy control skills according to my head canon even though its blatantly pointed out several times Freeza has gotten stronger than before".

You have a very hard headed approach to power levels that are spelled out simple and straight forward where you need to be spoonfed information for it to be viable to your head-canon to the point you're pedantic and contrarian for the sake of it like the Vegeta being hundreds/thousands of times stronger than Goku during the Black saga based off the narrative you built up in your head. Do you like arguing for the hell of it so you can listen to the sound of your own voice or something to stroke that self-entitled bloated ego of yours?

I find it funny because I would exactly copy-paste the last paragraph; maybe when you'll re-read in a few days or years yourself you will realize just how inherently "pot meet kettle" your entire line of reasoning is.

[ChiefWamsutta]

'kay. Let's see if now that I've been forced to wallpost you can make a suitable answer without four dozens quotes and sticking to the point. Can you please keep it surmised and neat? As a matter of fact, I have a master's thesis to write - I'm quite behind it, in fact - and I'd rather not lose half-hours going again over basically pointless clarifications.

You have a very hard headed approach to power levels that are spelled out simple and straight forward where you need to be spoonfed information for it to be viable to your head-canon to the point you're pedantic and contrarian for the sake of it like the Vegeta being hundreds/thousands of times stronger than Goku during the Black saga based off the narrative you built up in your head. Do you like arguing for the hell of it so you can listen to the sound of your own voice or something to stroke that self-entitled bloated ego of yours?

Jesus Christ, do you realize how rude both of you sound? You're talking about the fictional power levels of a Japanese cartoon. None of this matters. Respect your fellow community member.

[LowRyder2005]

'kay. Let's see if now that I've been forced to wallpost you can make a suitable answer without four dozens quotes and sticking to the point. Can you please keep it surmised and neat? As a matter of fact, I have a master's thesis to write - I'm quite behind it, in fact - and I'd rather not lose half-hours going again over basically pointless clarifications.

You have a very hard headed approach to power levels that are spelled out simple and straight forward where you need to be spoonfed information for it to be viable to your head-canon to the point you're pedantic and contrarian for the sake of it like the Vegeta being hundreds/thousands of times stronger than Goku during the Black saga based off the narrative you built up in your head. Do you like arguing for the hell of it so you can listen to the sound of your own voice or something to stroke that self-entitled bloated ego of yours?

Jesus Christ, do you realize how rude both of you sound? You're talking about the fictional power levels of a Japanese cartoon. None of this matters. Respect your fellow community member.

I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong other than answering in tone. Not even with the same tone, in fact: I'm addressing his content, pointing out the faults I see and saying I find the exchange pointless; from my perspective the guy seemingly lacks self-awareness over a lot of what he's saying at any given moment. He then calls me a hypocrite while addressing me personally and rather directly (among other stuff).

Notwithstanding that he was basically the one who began addressing my post in the first place, with debatable examples and a supposedly rock-solid matter-of-fact attitude... well, a horribly misplaced attitude, that is. Most, if not all of his facts are embellished opinions without the dozens of "I think", "in my opinion" they would normally warrant if you want to have an actual healthy discussion. Not like I'm not giving him *my* opinions, but those are almost every time labeled as such -- and yet, the fun part is that he thinks I'm somehow acting in bad faith or something.
I mean, he literally stated multiple times that my opinions are - pejoratively - "baseless headcanon", and his logical leaps are instead of possible deductions stuff "shown to be", which should really be nothing short of appaling to anyone who has even an idea of what's happening in the show. If you're not willing to adopt an equal field, expect to be treated accordingly (and again, the ascending climax of insults is entirely on his part; I'm comparatively tame).

[larzooma]

Are you going to do another tier list like before? Really curious to see one now.

I can have a go, it's still pretty tricky so I won't even bother with most of the Tournament fodder. Gohan is also pretty confusing so I only included him as Ultimate Gohan. Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan 3 Vegito could be anywhere in Tier 7-9.

Tier 1

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Tier 2

Vados
Whis

And all the other Angels.

Tier 3

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)

And all the others God's of Destruction.Who can say where Trunks is supposed to be.

Tier 4

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2 | Toppo

Tier 5

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Hit
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Tier 6

Giant Bergamo
Super Ribrianne
Ultimate Gohan | Android 17 | Ribrianne
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Some of these could be higher or lower yet.

Tier 7

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla

Black and Kale could possibly be higher. SSJ2 Future Trunks would be here somewhere. Maybe that Obuni too.

Tier 8

Zamasu
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta

Final Form Frieza could be higher or lower. SSJ Future Trunks would be somewhere here. Same with Maji Kayo

Tier 9

Final Form Frost
Jimeze
Kahseral
Base Goku | Vegeta | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Tier 10

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus ("Below 10%")
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

Tier 11

Piccolo
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Tagoma
Lavender
Basil
Super Saiyan Goten | Kid Trunks

This is where it seems that Gohan should be but then so would Goku and that doesn't make sense.

Tier 12

Android 18
Botamo
Goten | Kid Trunks
Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Android 18 could be higher. This is just based on her power in Z.

Tier 13

Shisami
Jaco

You're placing Piccolo way too low compared to a number of characters. You honestly think a base level Cabba is anywhere near as powerful as current Piccolo. From what we saw in episode 88, he's at his least at a level to job a SSJ2 Gohan on the verge of going Ultimate. Unfortunately, the only interaction we had between Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan was used to teach Gohan a lesson about letting his guard down, but we can infer from the fact they spent hours training while Gohan was in Ultimate form and Piccolo didn't require his sensu prior to the 2v2 in 90, Piccolo wasn't that far outclassed. Given Gohan is close if not equal to Goku in base, then it's safe to say Piccolo wouldn't require much effort to overpower a SSJ2 Goku. This places him somewhere, at his lower level, near current SSJ3 Goku, which puts him in your Tier 7. Honestly, in terms of sheer power, I wouldn't place SSJ3 behind low tier SSJB. It's simply an obsolete form due to the drawbacks, and SSJB functions in such a way the spectrum of power covers a wide range given the ki control it offers. We've yet to see him face an opponent throughout the entire series that openly pushed him to show his maximum power, so it's very possible he's even stronger.

[Lord Frieza]

Yeah kinda strange that Hit was even able to hit Jiren at all considering that Goku couldn't even with the Kaioken x20. He only even hit him once with Ultra Instinct as well.

I still have him as being a bit lower than just the ordinary Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he should get completely destroyed. I'd hope not though.

Well its down to Hit's fighting style. He aims for pressure points and internal orgens instead of just damaging flesh and muscle. Thats what the flashs of purple are when his attacks conect, their his attack/ki passing through his foes body. Its really similur to Kenshiro's Fist of the North Star techniques as he had faced foes who could thicken their muscle mass and make their skin as hard as iron yet his attack still got through, the only characters he ever had a bit of trouble with were a fat guy who's body protected his deeper tissue and a villain who's entire bodily system was reversed, heart on the right side, pressure points reversed etc and he still got round them.
His killing technique is by far the best example of as it derectly strikes the heart of his foe, with the intent of killing them out right, and it nearly did kill Goku.

If Jiren can take a derect hit to the heart and still keep going... well he's even more of a monster then I suspected.

Plus Hit also has al his energy duplicat abilities which should help him out a bit.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

To be honest, I think it's easier to chalk that SS2 Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan battle as both were starting out slow. Ultimate Gohan was using the power that would keep up with SS2 Goku.

"Gohan was holding back" just doesn't stick well to me. The Earth was shaking, and they were both fighting seriously enough for the Earth to shake. Until something contradicts this, my head-canon is that Goku is a Super Saiyan 2 Full Power like Vegeta.

In a post above I described my feelings on all of this, but I will say it more simply here.

Essentially, we have situations where Goku's Base form is really strong, situations where Goku's Base form is weak, situations where he uses SSGod, situations where he uses SSBlue, and the Godly SS1 from Ep. 14.

1) Pre-SSG ritual: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3.
2) The Battle of Gods: Goku has SSGod.
3) After time expires: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/Godly SS1. Because the SSGod power absorbed into his Base and SS1
4) Training with Whis: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/SSBlue. Learning to perfect ki control in the Godly SS1 form resulted in the form changing into SSBlue. So, Godly SS1 + Perfect Ki Control (God Ki) = SSBlue
5) The ToP: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue. He learned to perfect the ki control in his Godly Base, which changed it into SSGod.

Having Godly Base/SBG BE the same thing as SSGod works well. The Godly SS1 from Ep. 14 BEING SSBlue works well too. When Godly SS1 was gone, SSBlue arrived. Then we had Godly Base for a while, until SSGod re-entered and Godly Base was gone. This also encompasses perfect ki control and how Whis' training works in all of this. Goku Black could be considered to have Godly Base/SBG, but not SSGod, which is why his Base form was so strong. He had the Goku of that timeline's SSBlue though, because that Goku had perfected the ki control of Godly SS1, but not the Godly Base yet. The perfection of the Godly Base probably came with the training for ToP. This also includes what Toriyama said about training Base and SS1 forms being a huge focus.

I feel like this captures everything.

As far as the anime is concerned, I agree with you in all these, except for one thing: I believe that Goku learned how to use SSG after the Future Trunks arc, but he can also use his Godly base state. That's because of his fights with Slim Boo & Ribrianne.

[larzooma]

Yeah kinda strange that Hit was even able to hit Jiren at all considering that Goku couldn't even with the Kaioken x20. He only even hit him once with Ultra Instinct as well.

I still have him as being a bit lower than just the ordinary Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he should get completely destroyed. I'd hope not though.

Well its down to Hit's fighting style. He aims for pressure points and internal orgens instead of just damaging flesh and muscle. Thats what the flashs of purple are when his attacks conect, their his attack/ki passing through his foes body. Its really similur to Kenshiro's Fist of the North Star techniques as he had faced foes who could thicken their muscle mass and make their skin as hard as iron yet his attack still got through, the only characters he ever had a bit of trouble with were a fat guy who's body protected his deeper tissue and a villain who's entire bodily system was reversed, heart on the right side, pressure points reversed etc and he still got round them.
His killing technique is by far the best example of as it derectly strikes the heart of his foe, with the intent of killing them out right, and it nearly did kill Goku.

If Jiren can take a derect hit to the heart and still keep going... well he's even more of a monster then I suspected.

Plus Hit also has al his energy duplicat abilities which should help him out a bit.

I'm not sure we've seen Hit at his maximum level. He's never really needed to rely on sheer power to compete, even with Goku. He's always been able to utilize his advanced abilities and developed fighting style to keep pace. It may be that he's really capable of accessing a much greater level of power. Plus, as mentioned above, he's able to attack vital points weakening his opponent. He has the time-skip ability very few fighters can master, and he's capable of evolving as the fight progresses to counter his opponent. As great of a martial artist you can consider Goku, I think Hit's heads above him in terms of his control, techniques, strategic ability, and battle IQ. I think people are going to be suprised how well he does against Jiren, and like many have suggested, he may be surviving long enough to open him up for a killing blow. He clearly respects Goku unlike any other fighter, and he saw how easily Jiren defeated him. He may see the only option of U6, or possibly even U7, of winning is sacrificing himself.

[Bullza]

You're placing Piccolo way too low compared to a number of characters. You honestly think a base level Cabba is anywhere near as powerful as current Piccolo. From what we saw in episode 88, he's at his least at a level to job a SSJ2 Gohan on the verge of going Ultimate.

Well this is where the confusion comes into it and why I left off Gohan for the most part. The episode where Piccolo and Gohan fought implied that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was weaker than his old Ultimate strength from the Buu saga.

Piccolo was around as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan so would also be weaker than Buu saga Ultimate Gohan.

But then Copy Vegeta made a mockery of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. So Base Goku and Vegeta should be Ultimate Gohan already going by that and Base Cabba was as strong as Vegeta.

So ideally Base Cabba should be stronger. I'm not sure if that's going to be the intention with the show or not or if they've changed things which might make inconsistencies somewhere though.

[BlueVegerot]

Trying to make sense of powerscaling in this show will make you want to rip your hair off.

A casual ribrianne was able to go toe to toe with ssj vegeta

Then she got angry and went toe to toe with a17 who was able to push goku to blue and hold off his kamehameha

Then she transforms via outside help and is still unable to land a blow on base goku.

So is Base Goku > 17 and SSJ Vegeta?

[lord turbo]

Yet again, I don't see where I said I have actual problems with it, it's just something I'm not willing to buy because I don't really see Toyotaro making this kind of scenario in his own mind. It's more like you are trying to force me to accept it as the one hypothesis which makes sense. If you think it makes sense, good for you; instinctively, I don't think it does and while I'm not excluding the possibility I deem it fairly improbable.
Regarding Vegeta, it's just because it's what it's directly stated. If I say "you can't even reach 100 km/h" while driving, I'm not saying "you can definitely reach 40 km/h". You also don't know even know how fast Vegeta was going at that point. Of course the statement would be relatively more accurate, but you have no logical grounds to make conclusions about it. Again, you're the one who seems unable to separate his suppositions from the actual evidence at hand, conflating your personal conclusions with "logic". Vegeta might have also been shot down by Hit before he was actually using his 10% and that Whis just deduced it. Again, no biggie.

I'm just saying you're doing this bizarre way of thinking were you are trying awfully hard to make the world come off as simple else rather than simply taking it at face value like everyone else. Again, you're "maybe Vegeta wasn't starting out or whatever" is again your baseless assumptions rather than keeping stuff simple.

Vegeta might have also lied, or the differential between their bases could've been minimum, but amplified by a 50-fold increase could become considerable. Or Cabba was unable to control his stamina, and so on. Just sayin', eh. Your deductions are no better than these.
I frankly don't care about anything of this stuff you keep inserting randomly from the Buu saga and before: these are all personal deductions of yours you're trying to present as evidence. If you find a statement from a guidebook about the multipliers changing that much it'd be another story.

Predictable, I knew the "Vegheta was lying to himself" approach was coming followed by more baseless assumptions... You have anything actually concrete and not "Maybe, if, might, possibly, potentially, or probably" instead of forcing multipliers from guide books that are contradicted by the source material itself as shown above down my throat because you personally beleive in them firmly?

If Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan it should obviously mean Super Saiyan Gohan is above his base. I don't see how it does make any theoretical sense for Goku to go from 1 to 50 and then revert randomly to a level below his base form, like a 0.1; this is simply an idea having to do with Goku at least acting rationally. It wouldn't also make much sense to reach a Super Saiyan level overall below his base form to me if he could just power up in base, while this looks somewhat more possible. If you think Goku isn't acting rationally at that point believe what you will, but any of your argument becomes even more paper-thin.

Since you're using guidebooks then by all means I'm allowed to do so which mentions Goten is as strong as Gohan and his equal Kid Trunks was shown inferior to base Future Trunks in their sparring session (In before baseless assumptions of Kid Trunks could, might, probably, possibly gotten weaker when no such things is mentioned or stated like it is for Gohan). The same Future Trunks was shown comparable to Goku in equal forms so base Goku = Base Furute Trunks > SSJ Kid Trunks = SSJ Gohan meaning Goku went SSJ for shits and giggles against Gohan, not that he needed to.

Goku is visibly getting hurt against Tupper, what reason does he have to let himself get hurt when he could power up in base and free himself? And this is even before Tupper starts raising his weight, this is when Tupper just grabs base Goku. Tupper is relative to base Goku's strength since he's strong enough to bind him, #18 can hurt Tupper. No way Goku is hundreds or even dozens of times stronger than both.

Its mentioned by the characters (Whis/Beerus) the reason Goku doesn't power up to higher levels is because he's pacing himself and trying to conserve his energy/stamina (Something 17/18 don't have to do) which is why he's having a lot of trouble against people that normally would be absolutely nothing and mere weaklings to Goku as noted by Beerus... This is explanation despite the poor execution of it so far in this tournament.

Goku let his guard down (Gee, a phrase that is mentioned constantly for Goku) against Tupper as mentioned by Tupper himself, I don't think i need to say anymore here.

You're also trying to act like you're being super partes and yet you're automatically implying I should assume Ribrianne's power cannot be the one which fluctuate. Again, more double standards and fallacious reasoning, but okay. By the way, Vegeta doesn't transform to handle Ribrianne, he just happens to briefly fight her in SS (over the span of seconds). So again, the most reasonable deduction could be that Vegeta was pulling his punches for whatever reason. Or, again, Ribrianne's power could fluctuate with her "super form" just being played for the laughs.

Personally, I feel like all the characters are flucating to the point any comparison or power scaling is a sheer mess that requires too many assumptions for all invovled.

Neither Buu nor Piccolo has any actual reason to kill or hurt Goku, so if Buu/ Piccolo was above Goku they would've suppressed himself already since they have no reason to injure Goku; furthermore, Piccolo is just testing what kind of tactics are supposed to work in a battle royale. It's literally a simulation of a fight where nobody tries to get anyone hurt until Goku vs. Gohan. Besides, not only are those examples irrelevant as it stands you give some silly precedence you give to spars compared to actual fights. Piccolo is stronger than SS2 Gohan, and the same Gohan was lastly described as not possessing even the same power he had in the Cell Game, and that Super Saiyan Gohan is supposed to be above Goku.

You realize these characters can fight at full strength/power without accidently killing or injuring the other person right? Base Goku tests Mr. Buu who's shows off power and speed greater than what he had in the Exhibition Match, this is before he had to be told to he can't just senselessly murder the competition in the tournament. Therefore, base Goku is able to comfortably test characters that exceeds the fat version of Mr. Buu (high SSJ2 tier) in his base form.

Mr. Buu tries to ring Goku out with ki blast which he states and shows he can't accomplish that with Mr. Buu taking Goku off guard (pay close attention to the term off guard, it applies immensely to Goku in future episodes) to ring him out through straegy, not raw power. Gohan who's stated weaker than his Cell Games self is far weaker than that level base Goku handles just fine, ergo, he was BSing earlier against Gohan as a SSJ, a habit Goku apparenetly likes doing as noted by Kuririn when he wants to face Goku much to Goku's dismay so no, him using SSJ proves nothing

Finally, Since you're using the supplement material its fair game I use it as well then where Goten is mentioned as strong as Gohan. Goten's equal Kid Trunks is shown inferior to base Future Trunks during their sparring match, Goku and Future Trunks were shown earlier to be comparable to each other in the same forms so base Goku > Kid SSJ Trunks = SSJ Gohan. Again, in before more baseless assumption about Kid Trunks potentially/maybe/possibly/might this and that excuses.

Number 1, fighting better doesn't mean "magically raising his power level". Number 2, Super Saiyan boosts your power 50 times unless you have actual evidence it can somehow decrease.
And still not answering my question: you're implying Lavenda has all the raw power he needs to beat Gohan even without using the poison. Then you say base Gohan "fighting better" can beat the crap out of Lavenda? So what is it? Is he stronger or weaker? Because you're contradicting yourself with every phrase.

1. Learn how to read, I never said that.

2. If SSJ boosts 50x and base Gohan was kicking the crap out of Lavenda according to you, then why is it said that Gohan's SSJ only boost him a little in the same fight? Why is the same base Gohan you claimed is kicking the crap out of Lavenda struggling to overpower and beat Lavenda as a SSH before he dies from the poison?

ROFL. I did, maybe it's you who can't read attentively enough.
"With the poison sapping his strength EVEN MORE when he's Super Saiyan - which is probably the only reason why Lavenda is able to survive or go toe to toe with Gohan in......

LMAO, work on your abysmal reading comprehension as in your last post you said "The poison worked instantly, SSJ just made it worst" when in fact no, it did not work instantly and was a slow process and turning SSJ made it rapidly spread through his body significantly affecting his performance in the fight. Again, learn how to read, the rest of your post is mere drivel.

I find it funny because I would exactly copy-paste the last paragraph; maybe when you'll re-read in a few days or years yourself you will realize just how inherently "pot meet kettle" your entire line of reasoning is.

I'm sorry don't you have a precious master thesis you have to work on because you've fallen back doing God knows what behind close doors.....yet, here you are posting useless factoids about your personal life (Excuse my French, no one gives a damn about) complete with stuck up elitism style posting, contradictory much?

[larzooma]

You're placing Piccolo way too low compared to a number of characters. You honestly think a base level Cabba is anywhere near as powerful as current Piccolo. From what we saw in episode 88, he's at his least at a level to job a SSJ2 Gohan on the verge of going Ultimate.

Well this is where the confusion comes into it and why I left off Gohan for the most part. The episode where Piccolo and Gohan fought implied that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was weaker than his old Ultimate strength from the Buu saga.

Piccolo was around as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan so would also be weaker than Buu saga Ultimate Gohan.

But then Copy Vegeta made a mockery of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. So Base Goku and Vegeta should be Ultimate Gohan already going by that and Base Cabba was as strong as Vegeta.

So ideally Base Cabba should be stronger. I'm not sure if that's going to be the intention with the show or not or if they've changed things which might make inconsistencies somewhere though.

For Gohan to reach his Ultimate form, I think he needs to attain a certain level of power before it's possible, which I'd argue he reached as of his fight with Piccolo. The second part of attaining the form is mental, which is the barrier Piccolo is actually training him to overcome. He's at a very high level as SSJ2, he simply needs to overcome his mental block to go beyond what he's capable of reaching using the SSJ line of transformations. Plus he's close to equal with Goku in 90 at base. Goku, and Vegeta, are much stronger than they were during the U6 tourney. If Piccolo can clearly outclass a SSJ2 level Gohan close to a level where his base rivals current Goku, then he's heads above Cabba who hasn't shown how he compares to th U7 Sayians in terms of growth, and as far as we know, can't attain SSJ2.