Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueVegerot]

Scale Ribrianne for me please

[LowRyder2005]

I'm just saying you're doing this bizarre way of thinking were you are trying awfully hard to make the world come off as simple else rather than simply taking it at face value like everyone else. Again, you're "maybe Vegeta wasn't starting out or whatever" is again your baseless assumptions rather than keeping stuff simple.

Which clearly begs the question: if you think it's baseless what's your aim here in keeping this conversation up? Wouldn't a normal person say "oh, I think it's baseless, but to each their own"? I mean, at least that's what I would do. At least that's what I factually did many posts ago by now.

It's almost like you won't drop this until I admit "uh, I say baseless stuff". Never mind that I could literally say the same for 90% of what you're stating, as half of your reasoning rests on assumptions which are literally no better or worse than mine: the fact you're legitimately not thinking you're not also reaching personal inferences over what you're seeing is nothing short of frightening.

Predictable, I knew the "Vegheta was lying to himself" approach was coming followed by more baseless assumptions... You have anything actually concrete and not "Maybe, if, might, possibly, potentially, or probably" instead of forcing multipliers from guide books that are contradicted by the source material itself as shown above down my throat because you personally beleive in them firmly?

Again, exactly my point above.

Since you're using guidebooks then by all means I'm allowed to do so

LOL.

which mentions Goten is as strong as Gohan and his equal Kid Trunks was shown inferior to base Future Trunks in their sparring session (In before baseless assumptions of Kid Trunks could, might, probably, possibly gotten weaker when no such things is mentioned or stated like it is for Gohan). The same Future Trunks was shown comparable to Goku in equal forms so base Goku = Base Furute Trunks > SSJ Kid Trunks = SSJ Gohan meaning Goku went SSJ for shits and giggles against Gohan, not that he needed to.

Again, exactly my point above. By the way, I also think Gohan, Goten and Trunks all regressed a lot in Super; no idea what the Buu saga has to do with this.

Its mentioned by the characters (Whis/Beerus) the reason Goku doesn't power up to higher levels is because he's pacing himself and trying to conserve his energy/stamina (Something 17/18 don't have to do) which is why he's having a lot of trouble against people that normally would be absolutely nothing and mere weaklings to Goku as noted by Beerus... This is explanation despite the poor execution of it so far in this tournament.

Goku let his guard down (Gee, a phrase that is mentioned constantly for Goku) against Tupper as mentioned by Tupper himself, I don't think i need to say anymore here.

Assuming a farmer wouldn't put Piccolo Daimao in a bearhug, he then obviously let Tupper strangle him for thirty seconds of banter? Your idea of "dropping your guard = let yourself get punched for seconds or minutes" is absolutely bizarre.

Personally, I feel like all the characters are flucating to the point any comparison or power scaling is a sheer mess that requires too many assumptions for all invovled.

Finally an acceptably open-minded statement? What happened? I was expecting a "this is totally wrong because *whatever idea I have on the subject*".

You realize these characters can fight at full strength/power without accidently killing or injuring the other person right? Base Goku tests Mr. Buu who's shows off power and speed greater than what he had in the Exhibition Match, this is before he had to be told to he can't just senselessly murder the competition in the tournament. Therefore, base Goku is able to comfortably test characters that exceeds the fat version of Mr. Buu (high SSJ2 tier) in his base form.

Mr. Buu tries to ring Goku out with ki blast which he states and shows he can't accomplish that with Mr. Buu taking Goku off guard (pay close attention to the term off guard, it applies immensely to Goku in future episodes) to ring him out through straegy, not raw power. Gohan who's stated weaker than his Cell Games self is far weaker than that level base Goku handles just fine, ergo, he was BSing earlier against Gohan as a SSJ, a habit Goku apparenetly likes doing as noted by Kuririn when he wants to face Goku much to Goku's dismay so no, him using SSJ proves nothing

... Why should I? Goku casually punching a farmer with full strength would probably kill the guy even in early Dragon Ball. And why shouldn't Mr. Buu suppress himself, again, assuming he was normally far above base Goku? I mean, do you think Krillin sparring with base Goku at the end of GT proves Krillin is not that much behind base Goku? I'm seriously falling way behind with pretty much anything you're saying by now.
Still, I absolutely love this "off guard" thing which makes fighters fight like crap for minutes.

Finally, Since you're using the supplement material its fair game I use it as well then where Goten is mentioned as strong as Gohan. Goten's equal Kid Trunks is shown inferior to base Future Trunks during their sparring match, Goku and Future Trunks were shown earlier to be comparable to each other in the same forms so base Goku > Kid SSJ Trunks = SSJ Gohan. Again, in before more baseless assumption about Kid Trunks potentially/maybe/possibly/might this and that excuses.

What...? Again?

1. Learn how to read, I never said that.

2. If SSJ boosts 50x and base Gohan was kicking the crap out of Lavenda according to you, then why is it said that Gohan's SSJ only boost him a little in the same fight? Why is the same base Gohan you claimed is kicking the crap out of Lavenda struggling to overpower and beat Lavenda as a SSH before he dies from the poison?

... LOL, then pray tell, what were you actually saying?
To be frank, I have no recollection of this, but it could easily have to do with Gohan being affected by the poison and unable. Or Gohan being suppressed, since his Super Saiyan should be far above Lavenda. In fact, if Gohan's Super Saiyan isn't that much above it looks even more like an indicator that his regular Super Saiyan would make short work of Lavenda.

LMAO, work on your abysmal reading comprehension as in your last post you said "The poison worked instantly, SSJ just made it worst" when in fact no, it did not work instantly and was a slow process and turning SSJ made it rapidly spread through his body significantly affecting his performance in the fight. Again, learn how to read, the rest of your post is mere drivel.

Too bad the poison did work instantly: Lavenda literally asks base Gohan if he likes his poison when he's beating him up and Ro tells Gohan he should "writhe in pain" because of it. So, again, you're completely off the mark.

I'm sorry don't you have a precious master thesis you have to work on because you've fallen back doing God knows what behind close doors.....yet, here you are posting useless factoids about your personal life (Excuse my French, no one gives a damn about) complete with stuck up elitism style posting, contradictory much?

You're really livid, aren't you?

[ChiefWamsutta]

To be honest, I think it's easier to chalk that SS2 Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan battle as both were starting out slow. Ultimate Gohan was using the power that would keep up with SS2 Goku.

"Gohan was holding back" just doesn't stick well to me. The Earth was shaking, and they were both fighting seriously enough for the Earth to shake. Until something contradicts this, my head-canon is that Goku is a Super Saiyan 2 Full Power like Vegeta.

In a post above I described my feelings on all of this, but I will say it more simply here.

Essentially, we have situations where Goku's Base form is really strong, situations where Goku's Base form is weak, situations where he uses SSGod, situations where he uses SSBlue, and the Godly SS1 from Ep. 14.

1) Pre-SSG ritual: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3.
2) The Battle of Gods: Goku has SSGod.
3) After time expires: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/Godly SS1. Because the SSGod power absorbed into his Base and SS1
4) Training with Whis: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/SSBlue. Learning to perfect ki control in the Godly SS1 form resulted in the form changing into SSBlue. So, Godly SS1 + Perfect Ki Control (God Ki) = SSBlue
5) The ToP: Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue. He learned to perfect the ki control in his Godly Base, which changed it into SSGod.

Having Godly Base/SBG BE the same thing as SSGod works well. The Godly SS1 from Ep. 14 BEING SSBlue works well too. When Godly SS1 was gone, SSBlue arrived. Then we had Godly Base for a while, until SSGod re-entered and Godly Base was gone. This also encompasses perfect ki control and how Whis' training works in all of this. Goku Black could be considered to have Godly Base/SBG, but not SSGod, which is why his Base form was so strong. He had the Goku of that timeline's SSBlue though, because that Goku had perfected the ki control of Godly SS1, but not the Godly Base yet. The perfection of the Godly Base probably came with the training for ToP. This also includes what Toriyama said about training Base and SS1 forms being a huge focus.

I feel like this captures everything.

As far as the anime is concerned, I agree with you in all these, except for one thing: I believe that Goku learned how to use SSG after the Future Trunks arc, but he can also use his Godly base state. That's because of his fights with Slim Boo & Ribrianne.

There might not be an answer that includes everything. Things could have worked well if SSGod was not reintroduced, but the Godly SS1 being randomly placed in Episode 14 still won't work.

I really don't know what to say, other than maybe Slim Buu and Goku were holding back tons. This could work because it was a quick practice match. I don't know about Ribrianne. I really don't.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm sorry don't you have a precious master thesis you have to work on because you've fallen back doing God knows what behind close doors.....yet, here you are posting useless factoids about your personal life (Excuse my French, no one gives a damn about) complete with stuck up elitism style posting, contradictory much?

You're really livid, aren't you?

I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong other than answering in tone. Not even with the same tone, in fact: I'm addressing his content, pointing out the faults I see and saying I find the exchange pointless; from my perspective the guy seemingly lacks self-awareness over a lot of what he's saying at any given moment. He then calls me a hypocrite while addressing me personally and rather directly (among other stuff).

No, you are doing something wrong. You both are part of the problem, here. It is upsetting and difficult to have fun, harmless discussions about power scaling when users get to this level of intensity about things.

I'm letting you know I have reported you both. Can we please try to go back to fun, harmless discussions?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There might not be an answer that includes everything. Things could have worked well if SSGod was not reintroduced, but the Godly SS1 being randomly placed in Episode 14 still won't work.

I really don't know what to say, other than maybe Slim Buu and Goku were holding back tons. This could work because it was a quick practice match. I don't know about Ribrianne. I really don't.

It makes no sense for Boo to hold back, since the whole point of their fight was for Goku to see Boo's new power through his training. He can't show his new power if he is using 0.25% of his full power.

[Hugo Boss]

Scale Ribrianne for me please

I think she is somewhat weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. Though, I tend to not take seriously her feats. I inserted her in my gag characters’ list.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Scale Ribrianne for me please

I think she is somewhat weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. Though, I tend to not take seriously her feats. I inserted her in my gag characters’ list.

It can be pretty hard to scale from this tournament in general, given that the animation teams are mostly working off of "Rule of Cool" and creating fights based on suggestions from the writers and directors to make them as interesting as possible, probably with little regard for the greater implications these fights could have on hardcore power-scaling.

The clearest example that follows older rules on power-scaling would probably be Goku vs. Jiren in their first fight. Jiren very clearly displays that he absolutely chumps on Goku in every way with a power level within the realm of the Gods of Destruction. Of course, there also subtle instances that show that the power-scaling isn't completely dependent on the old rules.

For example, Jiren bothers blocking and dodging hits at all, and he even grunts a bit when he's hit, though not a lot given how ridiculously strong he is.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm sorry don't you have a precious master thesis you have to work on because you've fallen back doing God knows what behind close doors.....yet, here you are posting useless factoids about your personal life (Excuse my French, no one gives a damn about) complete with stuck up elitism style posting, contradictory much?

You're really livid, aren't you?

I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong other than answering in tone. Not even with the same tone, in fact: I'm addressing his content, pointing out the faults I see and saying I find the exchange pointless; from my perspective the guy seemingly lacks self-awareness over a lot of what he's saying at any given moment. He then calls me a hypocrite while addressing me personally and rather directly (among other stuff).

No, you are doing something wrong. You both are part of the problem, here. It is upsetting and difficult to have fun, harmless discussions about power scaling when users get to this level of intensity about things.

I'm letting you know I have reported you both. Can we please try to go back to fun, harmless discussions?

And just what the hell I'm doing wrong? Because I won't stay put with a guy who keeps nagging at me and I will re-address his points? Okay, true enough, I can wholly accept a "maybe you could be the bigger man and ignore him", but I'll still stress there's a difference between answering without being excessively jolly, having a discussion in which do people do not agree on a number of fundamentals issues while acting maturely, and just being verbally attacked. The other person obviously ought to be reportable now with his latest bursts which have devolved into purely aggressive, half unintelligible gibberish - accounting for about 50% of what he says, at least - but before it appeared like it was still possible to make him understand at least where I was coming from; furthermore, while lenghty, my posts were absolutely intended to be diplomatic in nature. I'm legitimately about to get offended over equating my stance of "I disagree/ I think you are not being objective/ I see it differently" so far with the "hurr durr, I smell hypocrisy, you elitist dick". The exchange literally starts two pages behind, I re-read myself entirely and I still don't find anything even remotely as personal or as disrespectful as what the I've been reading from the other party. I don't have problems with people who see it differently than me, per se. I have problems with bad attitudes.

And - finally - you do know you can add me, him or whoever is in the thread with the "ignore" button if the thread seems cluttered, so that you can have whatever other discussion you want? You've of course the power to report my post whenever you deem it appropriate, but considering the exchange was between me and him I don't really get this idea we're detracting from the discussion, unless you think it the other posters avoid the thread -- which I don't think to be the case, given that everyone simply ignored the bunch of wallposts, seemingly kept on discussing without caring about the exchange at all and I'm totally sure you would have placidly conversed with whoever you wanted.

Then again, don't worry. It's definitely my intention to start using this thread less. In about one year and a half of posting my impressions I realized I don't have the stamina to keep it up with the more uncompromising individuals around (especially given that they statistically tend to combine such an uncompromising attitude with a rather fearful Dunning-Kruger effect).

[Shlugo]

Scale Ribrianne for me please

Her base form seems to be weaker than Base Goku, and while her Super Form is stronger, it's probably not overwhelmingly so, since Base Goku could still tangle with her relatively easily.

[Bullza]

Base Goku has to be stronger than Buu, likely Kid Buu. They pretty much said that.

[STH]

Beyond God Goku is stronger than kid buu. Not base.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Beyond God Goku is stronger than kid buu. Not base.

Depending on who you ask, "Saiyan Beyond God" IS just the base form as a whole. Like me. I'm one of those folks.

[BlueVegerot]

[spoiler]Episode 113 and 114 could throw powerscaling into wack once again. Goku starts to fight Caulifla and Kale and he even says he doesn't have the energy to go super saiyan but "that fighting will help him recover some stamina" Episode 114 , Goku apparently overwhelms both Kale and Caulifla ( who have been resting since end of 101) and forces Kale to go berserker. So unless goku in 1 minute went from completely out of energy to super saiyan, his base form is strong enough to push both those two to their highest forms[/spoiler]

[larzooma]

[spoiler]Episode 113 and 114 could throw powerscaling into wack once again. Goku starts to fight Caulifla and Kale and he even says he doesn't have the energy to go super saiyan but "that fighting will help him recover some stamina" Episode 114 , Goku apparently overwhelms both Kale and Caulifla ( who have been resting since end of 101) and forces Kale to go berserker. So unless goku in 1 minute went from completely out of energy to super saiyan, his base form is strong enough to push both those two to their highest forms[/spoiler]

[spoiler]One, I think they purposely cut him some slack, after saving him. Second, I think people are right to think Frieza is going to kickstart the healing process by giving him some energy, so he's probably in slow recovery when they come to his aid.[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

Beyond God Goku is stronger than kid buu. Not base.

They aren't separate things.

Unless you mean Base Goku at the start of Super wasn't stronger than Kid Buu which would be correct because he wasn't even as strong as Frieza. Since the Resurrection F saga and all his training with Whis however his Base form was superior to Kid Buu.

[Shlugo]

[spoiler]Episode 113 and 114 could throw powerscaling into wack once again. Goku starts to fight Caulifla and Kale and he even says he doesn't have the energy to go super saiyan but "that fighting will help him recover some stamina" Episode 114 , Goku apparently overwhelms both Kale and Caulifla ( who have been resting since end of 101) and forces Kale to go berserker. So unless goku in 1 minute went from completely out of energy to super saiyan, his base form is strong enough to push both those two to their highest forms[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Hard to say without proper context. I mean, Goku apparently just broke through a shell of his normal limits, so perhaps weird spikes in power are to be expected. We won't be able to tell until we see the episode.[/spoiler]

[ChiefWamsutta]

There might not be an answer that includes everything. Things could have worked well if SSGod was not reintroduced, but the Godly SS1 being randomly placed in Episode 14 still won't work.

I really don't know what to say, other than maybe Slim Buu and Goku were holding back tons. This could work because it was a quick practice match. I don't know about Ribrianne. I really don't.

It makes no sense for Boo to hold back, since the whole point of their fight was for Goku to see Boo's new power through his training. He can't show his new power if he is using 0.25% of his full power.

Yeah, you're right. Fuck. I don't know how to add this to my theory. I'd have to modify it a fair bit.

[ZombieVito]

Alright, if base Gohan after training with the Z Sword (His peak on Z) is a 100. How are these compared to him?

BoG arc base Gohan:
RoF arc base Gohan:
U6 arc base Gohan:
FT arc base Gohan:
ToP arc base Gohan:

[larzooma]

Are you going to do another tier list like before? Really curious to see one now.

I can have a go, it's still pretty tricky so I won't even bother with most of the Tournament fodder. Gohan is also pretty confusing so I only included him as Ultimate Gohan. Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan 3 Vegito could be anywhere in Tier 7-9.

Tier 1

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Tier 2

Vados
Whis

And all the other Angels.

Tier 3

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)

And all the others God's of Destruction.Who can say where Trunks is supposed to be.

Tier 4

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2 | Toppo

Tier 5

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Hit
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Tier 6

Giant Bergamo
Super Ribrianne
Ultimate Gohan | Android 17 | Ribrianne
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Some of these could be higher or lower yet.

Tier 7

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla

Black and Kale could possibly be higher. SSJ2 Future Trunks would be here somewhere. Maybe that Obuni too.

Tier 8

Zamasu
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta

Final Form Frieza could be higher or lower. SSJ Future Trunks would be somewhere here. Same with Maji Kayo

Tier 9

Final Form Frost
Jimeze
Kahseral
Base Goku | Vegeta | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Tier 10

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus ("Below 10%")
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

Tier 11

Piccolo
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Tagoma
Lavender
Basil
Super Saiyan Goten | Kid Trunks

This is where it seems that Gohan should be but then so would Goku and that doesn't make sense.

Tier 12

Android 18
Botamo
Goten | Kid Trunks
Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Android 18 could be higher. This is just based on her power in Z.

Tier 13

Shisami
Jaco

I just can’t agree with the exact character placement on your list, especially in regards to your comparison with base Goku and Vegeta (and Cabba by an outdated extension). A number of characters made substantial gains during the time between the U6 tourney and the ToP.

Tier 1
• Possibly Zen-Oh (The more I watch them, the more I think they’re probably incredibly weak in terms of fighting power. They simply have the absolute power to create and destroy, which makes them feared on another level. Why would they require body guards if they were so strong, or need a barrier from the Grand Priest to protect them from Jiren’s power, or find it impossible to follow Dyspo vs. Hit)
• Grand Priest

Tier 2
• Vados
• Whis
• And all the other Angels.
• Full powered Jiren – It’s possible, given Belmod’s comment that Jiren doesn’t need to worry no matter what opponent he faces can be interpreted to include the angels given he was talking to an angel, and he didn’t qualify it further.

Tier 3
• Suppressed Jiren
• Ultra-Instinct Goku
• SSJB Vegito
• Beerus
• Champa
• Sword of Hope Trunks
• Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)
• The others God's of Destruction.

Tier 4

• SSJB Goku Kaioken x20
• SSJB Goku Kaioken x10
• SSJB Goku Kaioken x2
• Toppo
• Golden Frieza
• Hit

Tier 5
• Fused Zamasu (Halo)
• SSJB Goku | Vegeta
• Ultimate Gohan
• SSJ Rose Goku Black
• SSJ Rage Future Trunks

Tier 6
• Android 17
• Dyspo
• SSJ God Goku
• SSJ Berserk Kale

Tier 7
• Piccolo
• SSJ 3 Goku
• SS2 Goku
• SSJ2 Gohan
• SSJ2 Caulifla
• Base Goku Black

Tier 8
• Zamasu
• Final Form Frieza
• SSJ Goku | Vegeta
• SSJ Cabba | Caulifla
• Magetta
• Bergamo
• Basil (Drugged)
• Lavender

Tier 9
• Final Form Frost
• Jimeze
• Kahseral
• Base Goku | Vegeta
• Base Cabba | Caulifla

Tier 10
• Enraged SSJ 2 Vegeta
• Beerus ("Below 10%")
• SSJ3 Gotenks

Tier 11
• Basil
• Tagoma
• SSJ Goten | Kid Trunks

Tier 12
• Android 18
• Botamo
• Goten | Kid Trunks

Tier 13
• Krillin
• Tien
• Master Roshi (Max Power)
• Ganos
• Shisami
• Jaco

[ChiefWamsutta]

Alright, if base Gohan after training with the Z Sword (His peak on Z) is a 100. How are these compared to him?

BoG arc base Gohan: 95
RoF arc base Gohan: 90
U6 arc base Gohan: 95
FT arc base Gohan: 98
ToP arc base Gohan: 100

I'm not including Ultimate in any of this, but his pure, raw Base form power.