Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:46 pm

supercat wrote: Those are all really good points.

Actually yeah, I have a really hard time figuring out where to place Merged Zamasu. But I do agree that Beerus, Merged Zamasu, and SSB Vegetto can all be within the same tier of power.

Hit is also confusing since the time skip ability really ups the overall performance. Power-wise I could change Hit and Goku Black and it would still make sense I suppose. I just feel Hit isn't quite at Golden Frieza / SSB Goku / Vegeta tier in terms of sheer strength. What do you think?

As for Kale, putting her around Android 17 would also work.
From pure power, I would put Hit below Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta and true Golden Freeza.

I would personally put Kale and 17 in the same power ranged, but again I have nothing to support this other than I don't feel Goku was being entirely serious with Kale. So could be much high from a power perspective.
Last edited by HeroR on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:57 pm

Interesting.

Apparently Universe 10 God of Destruction's roar knocks Shin out but not base Goku.

:think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:59 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Interesting.

Apparently Universe 10 God of Destruction's roar knocks Shin out but not base Goku.

:think:
Well, that's just hints that Goku in base is stronger than Shin and not trapped in his Buu Saga level like some think towards the manga.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:11 pm

HeroR, I made some adjustments to my tier list. Now I'm wondering if Android 17 should be above Dyspo. Hard to tell honestly.

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

I didn't bother listing a lot of characters / transformations between Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), but there's a handful of them from the tournament. Piccolo > various fighters > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:16 pm

So U10's GoD can scream and send paralysis or shiver to them, thats why he got to hit them... thats neat?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:25 pm

supercat wrote:HeroR, I made some adjustments to my tier list. Now I'm wondering if Android 17 should be above Dyspo. Hard to tell honestly.

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

I didn't bother listing a lot of characters / transformations between Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), but there's a handful of them from the tournament. Piccolo > various fighters > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).
Another nitpick, I think it's too soon to put Jiren above UI Goku since Goku was running on fumes and Jiren still never touched Goku. Yeah, Jiren was holding back most likely, but we're making assumptions by how much, especially since Goku's strength was steadily growing. So I would put, Jiren >/= UI Goku.

Power-wise, I think Vegetto Blue was above Merged Zamasu, at least until he bulked up, but Merged Zamasu was far more durable, so I would say Merged Zamasu </= Vegetto Blue </=Beerus.

But I agree more or less with the rest.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:51 pm

I see a lot of people talking about how pretty much every character is beyond Super Buuhan level by this point, but I can't for the life of me see how or why. Let me start from the beginning.

At the start of Super, we've got Goku back on top, he's probably about the same strength as he was in the Buu saga. Gohan's lost his position, because he stopped training and became drastically, pathetically weaker. Which sucks. Buu is either just as strong as Goku or very close, maybe just under SSJ3 level. Super Buu should still be much, much stronger than Goku right now. Vegeta is weaker than Buu, being capable of a strong SSJ2 form. Behind Vegeta would be Piccolo who, by this point, might be as strong as Gohan when he first went SSJ2, but could be even weaker than that. Beerus comes and fucks everybody up, Goku gets God form which puts him clearly stronger than everyone by a large margin and afterwards Goku and Vegeta go off to train with Whis.

Next up, Freeza comes back. Freeza's gotten stronger, but Gohan has gotten so weak that he can only turn SSJ1 and his SSJ form is hilariously outclassed by Freeza's first form which has less than 0.05% of Freeza's final form power. Somehow, at this point, Piccolo is even weaker than Gohan. Goku and Vegeta come back and their base forms are comparable to Freeza's final form which is like 250 times stronger than Gohan's SSJ form, so... yeah. They definitely got a lot stronger. How much? Hard to tell. Gohan and Piccolo becoming so weak at this point throws off any viable scaling benchmarks, so... it all depends on where you scale Final Form Freeza, and that's honestly anyone's guess. If we scale from the lowest level of Super Saiyan we've got and go from there, then first form Freeza is stronger than 150 million, by a lot. Actually, how he trashes Gohan looks kinda like how Android 18 trashed Vegeta back in the day, so let's say that first form Freeza is 18 level (why Buu and Android 18 aren't there to face Freeza is probably because of how they would have messed up the narrative). That means his final form is roughly 225 times stronger than her, so over 1,000 times as strong as early SSJ Vegeta, for example. Pretty damn strong really. If we assume power levels didn't inflate too crazily after the Cell games, Vegeta's SSJ power level by the time Buu rolled around might have been something like 750 million and his SSJ2 power by the end of Buu/beginning Super around 2 billion. If we put Android 18 at roughly 275 million, then final form Freeza is sitting on a power level of something like 60 billion, which, even being generous and giving SSJ2 Goku a PL of 2.5 billion, means his SSJ3 was only 10 billion, which means final form Freeza is at least 6 times stronger than Goku's most powerful form at the start of Super and that also means that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are now roughly 6 to 8 times stronger than Goku's SSJ3 was at the start of Super! Holy shit!

But then where does Buu and everyone else fit into this after Resurrection of F? Well, Buu should still be about as strong as a SSJ3, right? So he's got a power level close to 8 billion. Piccolo should still be as strong as a SSJ2 which would put him at something like 2 billion on the high end, but he was shown to be weaker than SSJ Gohan and that Gohan is a very weak SSJ, so I have no idea. It looked like Gohan would be at, maybe 100 million? With Piccolo trailing behind at 75 million, maybe? I guess, they could have been as strong as 200 and 150 million respectively. Android 18 would still be sitting at maybe 300 million, probably less. She could've handled first form Freeza, probably. Buu could have taken him up to third form, but would lose to anything more than 13% of final form Freeza's power. Android 17? Well, when he does show up, he's strong enough to handle new and improved post-RoF SSJ Goku, even knock the crap out of him. Just by itself, that's insane. SSJ Goku has a power level of 3 trillion or more. This would definitely put Android 17 above Super Buuhan level. Ultimate Gohan probably never reached a power level higher than 64 billion and that's being generous. Super Vegetto would have had a power level of something like 500 billion if we're really hi-balling it, so maaaaybe a trillion if he went SSJ2. Android 17 is basically as strong as a hypothetical Buu saga SSJ3 Vegetto. Dear god.

So, then :crazy: where is Gohan on the power scale at this point? Where is Piccolo? Gohan is post-RoF SSJ2 Goku level which puts him up to 6 trillion or more? Gohan's gotten 100 times stronger than he was when he fought Buu? Is Piccolo any stronger, though, than he was when he fought Frost? Goku was probably going to beat Frost in base form had Frost not poisoned him. So Frost is weaker than 60 billion. But Piccolo probably would have beat him too if he hadn't been poisoned, it took everything he had, and Frost was underestimating him, but I think it's safe to say, no way is Piccolo sitting at cell games SSJ power level anymore. But is he stronger than Buu? If Buu really is still less than 10 billion, then, actually, I'd say, yeah. Piccolo seems like he's got to be at least 30 billion by now. Wow. It actually is possible that Piccolo is stronger than Super Buu or even Buuhan at this point. Which sounds so insane, but comparatively that would make Android 17 like 100 times stronger than him. Gohan stronger still. Vegeta so far above him it's almost sad (1,000 times stronger or more as SSG, who knows how much stronger as SSB).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:06 pm

Don't forget you then need to multiple SSB by 20 to get Goku's SSBxKKx20 which still can't even make a dent in Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:30 pm

Going by what scans there are for the new chapter.

- Beerus and Quitela are possibly the strongest God's of Destruction as it looks like they were the last two standing? Perhaps Belmod as well as he was just faking.

- Grand Priest stopped each of their punches with a finger with no effort. Not surprised.

- It does look like Rumsshi's roar knocked out more than one Supreme Kai but yeah Base Goku is fine which may suggest he's stronger than them. Which he should be if they anime and manga sorta line up and there was no retcon.

- It's only panel but it looks like Toppo hurt Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Some in the manga thread are saying Toppo is stronger than Zamasu. I actually do think that in the anime, Toppo is stronger than Merged Zamasu with the Halo who would be the equivalent of manga Merged Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:22 pm

Ziegander wrote:[spoiler]I see a lot of people talking about how pretty much every character is beyond Super Buuhan level by this point, but I can't for the life of me see how or why. Let me start from the beginning.

At the start of Super, we've got Goku back on top, he's probably about the same strength as he was in the Buu saga. Gohan's lost his position, because he stopped training and became drastically, pathetically weaker. Which sucks. Buu is either just as strong as Goku or very close, maybe just under SSJ3 level. Super Buu should still be much, much stronger than Goku right now. Vegeta is weaker than Buu, being capable of a strong SSJ2 form. Behind Vegeta would be Piccolo who, by this point, might be as strong as Gohan when he first went SSJ2, but could be even weaker than that. Beerus comes and fucks everybody up, Goku gets God form which puts him clearly stronger than everyone by a large margin and afterwards Goku and Vegeta go off to train with Whis.

Next up, Freeza comes back. Freeza's gotten stronger, but Gohan has gotten so weak that he can only turn SSJ1 and his SSJ form is hilariously outclassed by Freeza's first form which has less than 0.05% of Freeza's final form power. Somehow, at this point, Piccolo is even weaker than Gohan. Goku and Vegeta come back and their base forms are comparable to Freeza's final form which is like 250 times stronger than Gohan's SSJ form, so... yeah. They definitely got a lot stronger. How much? Hard to tell. Gohan and Piccolo becoming so weak at this point throws off any viable scaling benchmarks, so... it all depends on where you scale Final Form Freeza, and that's honestly anyone's guess. If we scale from the lowest level of Super Saiyan we've got and go from there, then first form Freeza is stronger than 150 million, by a lot. Actually, how he trashes Gohan looks kinda like how Android 18 trashed Vegeta back in the day, so let's say that first form Freeza is 18 level (why Buu and Android 18 aren't there to face Freeza is probably because of how they would have messed up the narrative). That means his final form is roughly 225 times stronger than her, so over 1,000 times as strong as early SSJ Vegeta, for example. Pretty damn strong really. If we assume power levels didn't inflate too crazily after the Cell games, Vegeta's SSJ power level by the time Buu rolled around might have been something like 750 million and his SSJ2 power by the end of Buu/beginning Super around 2 billion. If we put Android 18 at roughly 275 million, then final form Freeza is sitting on a power level of something like 60 billion, which, even being generous and giving SSJ2 Goku a PL of 2.5 billion, means his SSJ3 was only 10 billion, which means final form Freeza is at least 6 times stronger than Goku's most powerful form at the start of Super and that also means that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are now roughly 6 to 8 times stronger than Goku's SSJ3 was at the start of Super! Holy shit!

But then where does Buu and everyone else fit into this after Resurrection of F? Well, Buu should still be about as strong as a SSJ3, right? So he's got a power level close to 8 billion. Piccolo should still be as strong as a SSJ2 which would put him at something like 2 billion on the high end, but he was shown to be weaker than SSJ Gohan and that Gohan is a very weak SSJ, so I have no idea. It looked like Gohan would be at, maybe 100 million? With Piccolo trailing behind at 75 million, maybe? I guess, they could have been as strong as 200 and 150 million respectively. Android 18 would still be sitting at maybe 300 million, probably less. She could've handled first form Freeza, probably. Buu could have taken him up to third form, but would lose to anything more than 13% of final form Freeza's power. Android 17? Well, when he does show up, he's strong enough to handle new and improved post-RoF SSJ Goku, even knock the crap out of him. Just by itself, that's insane. SSJ Goku has a power level of 3 trillion or more. This would definitely put Android 17 above Super Buuhan level. Ultimate Gohan probably never reached a power level higher than 64 billion and that's being generous. Super Vegetto would have had a power level of something like 500 billion if we're really hi-balling it, so maaaaybe a trillion if he went SSJ2. Android 17 is basically as strong as a hypothetical Buu saga SSJ3 Vegetto. Dear god.

So, then :crazy: where is Gohan on the power scale at this point? Where is Piccolo? Gohan is post-RoF SSJ2 Goku level which puts him up to 6 trillion or more? Gohan's gotten 100 times stronger than he was when he fought Buu? Is Piccolo any stronger, though, than he was when he fought Frost? Goku was probably going to beat Frost in base form had Frost not poisoned him. So Frost is weaker than 60 billion. But Piccolo probably would have beat him too if he hadn't been poisoned, it took everything he had, and Frost was underestimating him, but I think it's safe to say, no way is Piccolo sitting at cell games SSJ power level anymore. But is he stronger than Buu? If Buu really is still less than 10 billion, then, actually, I'd say, yeah. Piccolo seems like he's got to be at least 30 billion by now. Wow. It actually is possible that Piccolo is stronger than Super Buu or even Buuhan at this point. Which sounds so insane, but comparatively that would make Android 17 like 100 times stronger than him. Gohan stronger still. Vegeta so far above him it's almost sad (1,000 times stronger or more as SSG, who knows how much stronger as SSB).[/spoiler]

Pretty good logic for the most part, however final for Frieza was suppressed against base form Goku since he wasn't buff, which means base Goku doesn't have to be quite that strong. Also I'm not sure if ssj still gives Goku a 50x boost since Goku and Vegeta mastered their base form by not leaking ki. I would scale it like this.

Ssj Gohan RoF: 150-300 mil
first form Frieza: 500 mil- 1 bil
Piccolo ToP: 500 mil-3 bil
Good Buu: 4 bil (40% of Fat Buu)
Ssj3 Goku Buu saga: 16 bil
Base Goku/Vegeta/sff Frieza RoF: 20 bil)
Base Goku/Vegeta ToP: 30 bil
Mystic Gohan (Buu saga): 30 bil
Buuhan: 50 bil
100% ff Frieza: 40-120 bil
Ssj Goku/Vegeta ToP: 50-150 bil
Last edited by dragon boss z on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:08 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:Lmfao did i just read that right?! Do you seriously have SSJ Blue Vegetto ABOVE the Grand Priest!???
SSB Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta. I haven't seen anything so far that makes the Daishinkai thousands of times stronger than Goku or any of the gods, so until we learn something different, Blue Vegetto is the strongest.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheOne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:11 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Lmfao did i just read that right?! Do you seriously have SSJ Blue Vegetto ABOVE the Grand Priest!???
SSB Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta. I haven't seen anything so far that makes the Daishinkai thousands of times stronger than Goku or any of the gods, so until we learn something different, Blue Vegetto is the strongest.
Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:13 pm

TheOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Lmfao did i just read that right?! Do you seriously have SSJ Blue Vegetto ABOVE the Grand Priest!???
SSB Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta. I haven't seen anything so far that makes the Daishinkai thousands of times stronger than Goku or any of the gods, so until we learn something different, Blue Vegetto is the strongest.
Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
What are you talking about? This has been established in the original manga, and the anime made it even more obvious. Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, and close to Gohan Boo. There is no reason for the boost to suddenly get smaller in Super.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:25 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: SSB Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta. I haven't seen anything so far that makes the Daishinkai thousands of times stronger than Goku or any of the gods, so until we learn something different, Blue Vegetto is the strongest.
Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
What are you talking about? This has been established in the original manga, and the anime made it even more obvious. Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, and close to Gohan Boo. There is no reason for the boost to suddenly get smaller in Super.
However, we DO know that, in the manga at least, SSB Vegetto is stated as potentially superior to a God of Destruction, in the same manner as Jiren is stated as potentially superior to a God of Destruction.

We also know that Goku, using the Kaio-kenX20 with SSB, was barely able to force Jiren to use anywhere close to his true power. We also know that, according to old guidebooks, Vegetto in his base form was stronger than Goku with SS3.

However, what we don't know is by how much Vegetto is stronger than Goku, only that it's greater than 400 times. Given SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku's performance against Jiren, and the fact that SSB Vegetto has only been clarified as "potentially" stronger than a God of Destruction in the same way that Jiren has, a God of Destruction, and in turn Jiren and Vegetto being at least few hundred times stronger than SSB Goku is likely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:28 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: SSB Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta. I haven't seen anything so far that makes the Daishinkai thousands of times stronger than Goku or any of the gods, so until we learn something different, Blue Vegetto is the strongest.
Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
What are you talking about? This has been established in the original manga, and the anime made it even more obvious. Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, and close to Gohan Boo. There is no reason for the boost to suddenly get smaller in Super.
The hell? The same Vegetto who was described as "possibly" stronger than Beerus is now above the Grand Priest? What Are YOU talking about?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: This is the closest list to my personal opinion. I would just bump Maji Kayo to high tier, because Goku apparently couldn't break his hold as a normal Super Saiyan.
Good call. I should probably move Maji Kayo up a tier.
TheOne wrote: Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
Not trying to backseat mod here, but posts like this don't contribute to the discussion in any way. We just had this thread reopened yesterday, let's try not to get it closed again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:40 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:
Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
What are you talking about? This has been established in the original manga, and the anime made it even more obvious. Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, and close to Gohan Boo. There is no reason for the boost to suddenly get smaller in Super.
However, we DO know that, in the manga at least, SSB Vegetto is stated as potentially superior to a God of Destruction, in the same manner as Jiren is stated as potentially superior to a God of Destruction.

We also know that Goku, using the Kaio-kenX20 with SSB, was barely able to force Jiren to use anywhere close to his true power. We also know that, according to old guidebooks, Vegetto in his base form was stronger than Goku with SS3.

However, what we don't know is by how much Vegetto is stronger than Goku, only that it's greater than 400 times. Given SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku's performance against Jiren, and the fact that SSB Vegetto has only been clarified as "potentially" stronger than a God of Destruction in the same way that Jiren has, a God of Destruction, and in turn Jiren and Vegetto being at least few hundred times stronger than SSB Goku is likely.
What we know is that base Vegetto is stronger than a base Potara fusion of Goku & Gohan would have been, who would have been stronger than Gotenks Boo, who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is stronger than SS3 Goku, who is 400 times stronger than base Goku. This is all from the original manga, without taking into account the anime that had shown base Vegetto being close to Gohan Boo's level, because I'm talking about the Super manga, not the Super anime.
SuperDragoon wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:
Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
What are you talking about? This has been established in the original manga, and the anime made it even more obvious. Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, and close to Gohan Boo. There is no reason for the boost to suddenly get smaller in Super.
The hell? The same Vegetto who was described as "possibly" stronger than Beerus is now above the Grand Priest? What Are YOU talking about?
The Super manga doesn't give us any hard facts. Yes, Kaioshin calls Blue Vegetto "perhaps stronger than Beerus", but we don't know if Kaioshin has actually ever experienced Beerus' full power, and we don't even know if Vegetto was using his full power in the first place. Until we get some hard facts, I'm sticking to the original manga & movies.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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TheOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheOne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:48 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: This is the closest list to my personal opinion. I would just bump Maji Kayo to high tier, because Goku apparently couldn't break his hold as a normal Super Saiyan.
Good call. I should probably move Maji Kayo up a tier.
TheOne wrote: Oh gosh. What do you even say to someone who makes these kinds of statements?
Not trying to backseat mod here, but posts like this don't contribute to the discussion in any way. We just had this thread reopened yesterday, let's try not to get it closed again.
It's just such an outrageous claim that I really have no response to it. If someone truly believes something like that, it'll be hard even attempt to reason with them. But you're right. It didn't really contribute to the conversation. Just one of those what the heck moments.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:50 pm

TheOne wrote:It's just such an outrageous claim that I really have no response to it. If someone truly believes something like that, it'll be hard even attempt to reason with them. But you're right. It didn't really contribute to the conversation. Just one of those what the heck moments.
You know, you could try to get down from your high horse and actually prove me crazy instead of just calling me crazy without explaining.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:03 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What we know is that base Vegetto is stronger than a base Potara fusion of Goku & Gohan would have been, who would have been stronger than Gotenks Boo, who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is stronger than SS3 Goku, who is 400 times stronger than base Goku. This is all from the original manga, without taking into account the anime that had shown base Vegetto being close to Gohan Boo's level, because I'm talking about the Super manga, not the Super anime.
I'm pretty sure it was never established that Vegetto was a stronger fusion than a theoretical Gokhan. That fusion only happened because Gohan had gotten absorbed by Super Piccolo Buu.

Seeing as how Gohan was stronger than Goku by a pretty good margin at that point, I'm inclined to put Vegetto as, at most, "possibly" being equal to Gokhan in base form. What evidence do you have that Vegetto was the stronger fusion?

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