Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:33 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What we know is that base Vegetto is stronger than a base Potara fusion of Goku & Gohan would have been, who would have been stronger than Gotenks Boo, who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is stronger than SS3 Goku, who is 400 times stronger than base Goku. This is all from the original manga, without taking into account the anime that had shown base Vegetto being close to Gohan Boo's level, because I'm talking about the Super manga, not the Super anime.
I'm pretty sure it was never established that Vegetto was a stronger fusion than a theoretical Gokhan. That fusion only happened because Gohan had gotten absorbed by Super Piccolo Buu.

Seeing as how Gohan was stronger than Goku by a pretty good margin at that point, I'm inclined to put Vegetto as, at most, "possibly" being equal to Gokhan in base form. What evidence do you have that Vegetto was the stronger fusion?
When Goku merging with Gohan was the plan, Old Kaioshin talked about the Potara's amazing power being so great that "Gokhan" wouldn't even need to become a Super Saiyan to beat Gotenks Boo (and not because of Ultimate Gohan's power, but because of the Potara's power).

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

After Vegetto appears, Kibitoshin talks about the Potara's amazing power, but Old Kaioshin says that he isn't so powerful just because of the Potara's power (which he hyped before), but also because of Goku & Vegeta being the 2 of the 3 strongest in the universe, and because they are rivals on top of that. He even literally calls him the strongest fusion.

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

In the end, Vegetto was forced to use Super Saiyan on Gohan Boo, so base Vegetto is either a little weaker than Gohan Boo, or stronger, but not strong enough to humiliate Boo & force Boo to absorb him. But we know for a fact that he is definitely stronger than Gotenks Boo.

The "rival" part is about the power difference between Goku & Vegeta. The Potara power boost isn't stable, it's not just (A + B)xN, it's dependable on the power difference between the fighters. Kaioshin & Kibito, or Zamasu & SSR Black, in both cases the difference between the pairs is huge, so the result isn't that much stronger that the strongest of the pair (Kibitoshin isn't many times stronger than Kaioshin, and Merged Zamasu isn't many times stronger than SSR Black either). That's why Goku merging with Mr. Satan wouldn't be helpful. Depending on how you view Ultimate, if you view it as a transformation, base Goku is stronger than base Gohan. If not, U. Gohan is much stronger than SS3 Goku, let alone base Goku. But Goku & Vegeta are rivals, equals. So, since they are 2 of the 3 strongest (#1 was Gohan), they make the strongest possible result.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:58 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:It's just such an outrageous claim that I really have no response to it. If someone truly believes something like that, it'll be hard even attempt to reason with them. But you're right. It didn't really contribute to the conversation. Just one of those what the heck moments.
You know, you could try to get down from your high horse and actually prove me crazy instead of just calling me crazy without explaining.
Guys, sometimes it's better not engaging in discussions you probably won't agree. Let's try to keep the good vibes from the posts made after the moderation warning.

Back to DBS Chapter 29, at first I was surprised to see people talking about the Great Priest blocking Beerus and Quitela at the same time, but looking at the panel in question they seem really battered. Toppo being stronger than Goku was something I was expecting though, giving that kaioken is currently an anime-only device (I like that way because the build up for the tournament feels a bit different, while making Freeza and Vegeta as crucial as Goku).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:It's just such an outrageous claim that I really have no response to it. If someone truly believes something like that, it'll be hard even attempt to reason with them. But you're right. It didn't really contribute to the conversation. Just one of those what the heck moments.
You know, you could try to get down from your high horse and actually prove me crazy instead of just calling me crazy without explaining.
Guys, sometimes it's better not engaging in discussions you probably won't agree. Let's try to keep the good vibes from the posts made after the moderation warning.

Back to DBS Chapter 29, at first I was surprised to see people talking about the Great Priest blocking Beerus and Quitela at the same time, but looking at the panel in question they seem really battered. Toppo being stronger than Goku was something I was expecting though, giving that kaioken is currently an anime-only device (I like that way because the build up for the tournament feels a bit different, while making Freeza and Vegeta as crucial as Goku).
The grand priest was stated to be the strongest of all [barring Zeno].
So him casually blocking two gods with two fingers was meant to show superiority.
Regardless if they were in tip-top condition.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:13 pm

Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Back to DBS Chapter 29, at first I was surprised to see people talking about the Great Priest blocking Beerus and Quitela at the same time, but looking at the panel in question they seem really battered. Toppo being stronger than Goku was something I was expecting though, giving that kaioken is currently an anime-only device (I like that way because the build up for the tournament feels a bit different, while making Freeza and Vegeta as crucial as Goku).
The grand priest was stated to be the strongest of all [barring Zeno].
So him casually blocking two gods with two fingers was meant to show superiority.
Regardless if they were in tip-top condition.
More or less I agree with this notion, but there is the possibility that he wouldn't be able to do it so easily (perhaps he would use the palm of his hands?). Nevermind, it is a silly nitpicking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:24 pm

SuperDragoon wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: What are you talking about? This has been established in the original manga, and the anime made it even more obvious. Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, and close to Gohan Boo. There is no reason for the boost to suddenly get smaller in Super.
The hell? The same Vegetto who was described as "possibly" stronger than Beerus is now above the Grand Priest? What Are YOU talking about?
The Super manga doesn't give us any hard facts. Yes, Kaioshin calls Blue Vegetto "perhaps stronger than Beerus", but we don't know if Kaioshin has actually ever experienced Beerus' full power, and we don't even know if Vegetto was using his full power in the first place. Until we get some hard facts, I'm sticking to the original manga & movies.[/quote]
At this point you're running on baseless speculation. The fact that Kaioshin doesn't know Beerus's full power makes it MORE likely that Vegetto is weaker, not less. Otherwise he would have compared Vegetto to the angels at least. You're wanking Vegetto really high.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheOne wrote:It's just such an outrageous claim that I really have no response to it. If someone truly believes something like that, it'll be hard even attempt to reason with them. But you're right. It didn't really contribute to the conversation. Just one of those what the heck moments.
You know, you could try to get down from your high horse and actually prove me crazy instead of just calling me crazy without explaining.
Guys, sometimes it's better not engaging in discussions you probably won't agree. Let's try to keep the good vibes from the posts made after the moderation warning.

Back to DBS Chapter 29, at first I was surprised to see people talking about the Great Priest blocking Beerus and Quitela at the same time, but looking at the panel in question they seem really battered. Toppo being stronger than Goku was something I was expecting though, giving that kaioken is currently an anime-only device (I like that way because the build up for the tournament feels a bit different, while making Freeza and Vegeta as crucial as Goku).
If someone backs a stupid and baseless claim then they should be pointed out for it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:54 pm

SuperDragoon wrote:At this point you're running on baseless speculation. The fact that Kaioshin doesn't know Beerus's full power makes it MORE likely that Vegetto is weaker, not less. Otherwise he would have compared Vegetto to the angels at least. You're wanking Vegetto really high.
I'm not wanking Vegetto, the original manga did that.
SuperDragoon wrote:If someone backs a stupid and baseless claim then they should be pointed out for it.
Baseless? Read my posts, I've already elaborated my reasons for supporting this idea, unlike you whose counter arguement is simply calling my claims stupid.
Miracles wrote:The grand priest was stated to be the strongest of all [barring Zeno].
So him casually blocking two gods with two fingers was meant to show superiority.
Regardless if they were in tip-top condition.
Daishinkai was stated to be the strongest before Vegetto's appearance (and Vegetto only exists temporary so he doesn't really count). And Kami could block Daimao arc Goku with his finger as well, and he wasn't thousands times stronger than him, so Daishinkai blocking two gods with two fingers doesn't make him stronger than Blue Vegetto.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:57 pm

Well for starters I disagree that the gap between Vegetto and Buuhan is as how as you say it is so that's disagreement one. And secondly the comparison Kaioshin made to Beerus is enough for me to put Vegetto at GoD level. Definetly not Grand Priest level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:02 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Daishinkai was stated to be the strongest before Vegetto's appearance (and Vegetto only exists temporary so he doesn't really count). And Kami could block Daimao arc Goku with his finger as well, and he wasn't thousands times stronger than him, so Daishinkai blocking two gods with two fingers doesn't make him stronger than Blue Vegetto.
You're kidding right? The grand priest is stronger than angels.
Vegetto is no factor here. Which makes him irrelevant.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:15 pm

SuperDragoon wrote:Well for starters I disagree that the gap between Vegetto and Buuhan is as how as you say it is so that's disagreement one. And secondly the comparison Kaioshin made to Beerus is enough for me to put Vegetto at GoD level. Definetly not Grand Priest level.
Old Kaioshin calls Vegetto stronger than "Gokhan" would have been, and Gokhan would have been stronger than Gotenks Boo. There is no room for disagreement, unless if his words can be interpreted in a way that I can't imagine.
Miracles wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Daishinkai was stated to be the strongest before Vegetto's appearance (and Vegetto only exists temporary so he doesn't really count). And Kami could block Daimao arc Goku with his finger as well, and he wasn't thousands times stronger than him, so Daishinkai blocking two gods with two fingers doesn't make him stronger than Blue Vegetto.
You're kidding right? The grand priest is stronger than angels.
Vegetto is no factor here. Which makes him irrelevant.
The angels aren't even x2 stronger than the Hakashins, so this also doesn't say much.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:26 pm

SuperDragoon wrote:If someone backs a stupid and baseless claim then they should be pointed out for it.
Easy now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:26 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The angels aren't even x2 stronger than the Hakashins, so this also doesn't say much.
Where was this stated?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:13 am

Miracles wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The angels aren't even x2 stronger than the Hakashins, so this also doesn't say much.
Where was this stated?
Toriyama in an interview said SSG Goku was a 6, Beerus a 10, and Whis a 15. However that power scaling does not apply to Super at all since not even SSB Goku is 60% of Beerus. Probably not even SSB kkx 20 is that strong. So pretty much that statement from Toriyama is irrelevant now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:56 am

Wait, what is there in the manga that Goku is weaker than Toppo other than a single panel of Toppo kicking Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:54 am

Yep, confirmed.

Base Goku >> Shin & all other 11 Kaioshins.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:05 am

JazzMazz wrote:Wait, what is there in the manga that Goku is weaker than Toppo other than a single panel of Toppo kicking Goku?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:27 am

So if Toppo in the anime is said to be equal to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken then if we mix and match with the manga then you'd have to say that

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken > Completed Super Saiyan Blue

Which again would make sense considering that in the manga Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku was even with Zamasu but in the anime with the Kaioken he dropped him like a sack of potatoes.

To put a number to it

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken - 20
Toppo - 20
Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku - 15
Merged Zamasu - 15
Super Saiyan Blue Goku - 10

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 am

Full scans are out. I suppose someone could probably find a way of ranking most of the Gods of Destruction but I'd Beerus, Quitela and Belmod were the Top 3.

Beerus probably the best overall due to limited use of Ultra Instinct and him being confident that he'd beat Quitela in actual hand to hand co bat even if he was physically stronger.

Goku used all his forms against Toppo and he got one shotted by him in Completed Super Saiyan Blue form. It was a wipeout unlike in the anime for some reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:58 am

Bullza wrote:Full scans are out. I suppose someone could probably find a way of ranking most of the Gods of Destruction but I'd Beerus, Quitela and Belmod were the Top 3.

Beerus probably the best overall due to limited use of Ultra Instinct and him being confident that he'd beat Quitela in actual hand to hand co bat even if he was physically stronger.

Goku used all his forms against Toppo and he got one shotted by him in Completed Super Saiyan Blue form. It was a wipeout unlike in the anime for some reason.
Heck, Goku with regular SSB was doing alright against Toppo in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:33 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Miracles wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The angels aren't even x2 stronger than the Hakashins, so this also doesn't say much.
Where was this stated?
Toriyama in an interview said SSG Goku was a 6, Beerus a 10, and Whis a 15. However that power scaling does not apply to Super at all since not even SSB Goku is 60% of Beerus. Probably not even SSB kkx 20 is that strong. So pretty much that statement from Toriyama is irrelevant now.
The anime has its own power scale, but so far the power scaling from the movies still fits with the manga. Besides, even in the anime, there is nothing suggesting so far that Whis is more than x1.5 stronger than Beerus.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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