Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:46 am

6-10-15 obviously doesn't fit in the manga since the Black Arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:03 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote:If someone backs a stupid and baseless claim then they should be pointed out for it.
Baseless? Read my posts, I've already elaborated my reasons for supporting this idea, unlike you whose counter arguement is simply calling my claims stupid.
Nothing else needs to be said about it. Why should I bother counter arguing an idea the manga itself debunked? It'd be like getting into an arguement that Imperfect Cell was stronger than Perfect Cell. Vegetto is blatantly not superior to the Grand Priest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:04 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote:If someone backs a stupid and baseless claim then they should be pointed out for it.
Baseless? Read my posts, I've already elaborated my reasons for supporting this idea, unlike you whose counter arguement is simply calling my claims stupid.
[/quote]

Nothing else needs to be said about it. Why should I bother counter arguing an idea the manga itself debunked? It'd be like getting into an arguement that Imperfect Cell was stronger than Perfect Cell. Vegetto is blatantly not superior to the Grand Priest.
And on your other comment him being above a hypothetical Gokhan or not means nothing to me. That still doesn't make Vegetto hundreds of times above Buuhan considering the nerfed multipliers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:05 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote:If someone backs a stupid and baseless claim then they should be pointed out for it.
Baseless? Read my posts, I've already elaborated my reasons for supporting this idea, unlike you whose counter arguement is simply calling my claims stupid.
Nothing else needs to be said about it. Why should I bother counter arguing an idea the manga itself debunked? It'd be like getting into an arguement that Imperfect Cell was stronger than Perfect Cell. Vegetto is blatantly not superior to the Grand Priest.
And on your other comment him being above a hypothetical Gokhan or not means nothing to me. That still doesn't make Vegetto hundreds of times above Buuhan considering the nerfed multipliers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:21 am

Page 933 is happening again. Can we try to avoid these expressions: "stupid", "are you kidding", "baseless claim", "wanking", "downplaying", "there is no room for debate", "blatantly", "obviously", "debunked" and similars? It won't help any of us. You can disagree without being disrespectiful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:34 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Heck, Goku with regular SSB was doing alright against Toppo in the anime.
Toppo might have been holding back more in the anime though, especially seeing as he powered up further against Kaioken Blue Goku. I think one could reasonably argue that he mustered up more of his strength to land that one-shot attack.

I still think that 100% Blue in the manga and the current Blue in the anime are pretty much equivalent forms. We've seen Goku and Vegeta accomplish similar feats with these between both adaptations, and the anime's version never had that rapid power drain to begin with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:37 am

So, how strong do you think Base Goku is now?
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:40 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Heck, Goku with regular SSB was doing alright against Toppo in the anime.
Toppo might have been holding back more in the anime though, especially seeing as he powered up further against Kaioken Blue Goku. I think one could reasonably argue that he mustered up more of his strength to land that one-shot attack.

I still think that 100% Blue in the manga and the current Blue in the anime are pretty much equivalent forms. We've seen Goku and Vegeta accomplish similar feats with these between both adaptations, and the anime's version never had that rapid power drain to begin with.
The anime also has its own methods of putting out more power from SSB that differ from what the manga did.

For example, before Goku used Kaio-ken to lay Merged Zamasu's initial state flat, he used a Full-Power Kamehameha, an attack that I believe comes from the video games. It's basically the Final Flash version of the attack, able to hit with much more force than the user would ordinarily be able to put out and can actually hurt opponents above their paygrade. Goku basically did what SS Grade 2 Vegeta did to Perfect Cell when they fought, using an extremely powerful attack beyond their normal limits that damaged someone far superior to them. The fact that his arms were left useless afterwards speaks of how powerful that one Full-Power Kamehameha was.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:46 am

Yeah I'd rather a guy with only 37 posts not get the thread closed down for the many active members that use it.

We're talking about animated characters power here. It's not really not that big of a deal if he thinks Vegito is stronger than Grand Priest.
DBZ Macky wrote:So, how strong do you think Base Goku is now?
Does the manga specifically say anything that makes Goku stronger than the Supreme Kais? I know it kinda looks that way but does Whis say anything about how they're getting knocked out because of their low power level or something?

I already thought he was strong before. I didn't think the manga would make such a big change in that regard and I mentioned before about how Base Goku fought Frost and the humans couldn't see him even though they could see Super Saiyan Goku vs Perfect Cell. Vados said he was pretty quick too.

He could be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks just the same in the manga. If that wasn't taken into account because​ that was anime filler and the manga was just continuing from the Resurrection F movie then he should be stronger than Buu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:14 am

Bullza wrote: Does the manga specifically say anything that makes Goku stronger than the Supreme Kais? I know it kinda looks that way but does Whis say anything about how they're getting knocked out because of their low power level or something?
Yes. Whis says that everyone at the "Kaioshin level" got taken out by the roar.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:30 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote: Does the manga specifically say anything that makes Goku stronger than the Supreme Kais? I know it kinda looks that way but does Whis say anything about how they're getting knocked out because of their low power level or something?
Yes. Whis says that everyone at the "Kaioshin level" got taken out by the roar.
From what I've gathered from the manga and the anime, in general, the gods of each status seem occupy the same general range of power.

If we predicate our analyses on this premise, then we can make more clear power-scaling conclusions.

That would mean that, even in the manga, Goku in his base form is above the Kaioshin. Of course, that then begs the question of how strong the average Kaioshin is. For this, we have to look at what was presented in the Buu Saga back during the original manga and anime. I'm not as well-versed in this as others are since I've only gotten back into Dragon Ball in the past 4 years or so, but I'll do my best.

(Super) Perfect Cell was apparently the point at which the Kaioshin were surpassed on Earth, if one is to believe Shin. We also have Pure Buu killing nearly all of the Kaioshin in Universe 7 with ease, something which would make sense if their power rests somewhere below Cell, with occasional outlier Kaioshin.

That'd mean that, at the very least, Goku in his base form, at least in the manga, is at the very least around Cell's level, and could easily be higher. This actually lines up well with how strong Goku and Vegeta have been portrayed in the anime from time to time. Much stronger than most of the threats they faced but not completely above them. This also lines up well with how strong I generally place Goku, Vegeta, Final Form Freeza, etc., at the level of some for of Majin Buu, just not the upper ones like Buutenks or Buuhan.

Again, this is all just personal speculation on my part, and I could've easily made mistakes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote: Does the manga specifically say anything that makes Goku stronger than the Supreme Kais? I know it kinda looks that way but does Whis say anything about how they're getting knocked out because of their low power level or something?
Yes. Whis says that everyone at the "Kaioshin level" got taken out by the roar.
From what I've gathered from the manga and the anime, in general, the gods of each status seem occupy the same general range of power.

If we predicate our analyses on this premise, then we can make more clear power-scaling conclusions.

That would mean that, even in the manga, Goku in his base form is above the Kaioshin. Of course, that then begs the question of how strong the average Kaioshin is. For this, we have to look at what was presented in the Buu Saga back during the original manga and anime. I'm not as well-versed in this as others are since I've only gotten back into Dragon Ball in the past 4 years or so, but I'll do my best.

(Super) Perfect Cell was apparently the point at which the Kaioshin were surpassed on Earth, if one is to believe Shin. We also have Pure Buu killing nearly all of the Kaioshin in Universe 7 with ease, something which would make sense if their power rests somewhere below Cell, with occasional outlier Kaioshin.

That'd mean that, at the very least, Goku in his base form, at least in the manga, is at the very least around Cell's level, and could easily be higher. This actually lines up well with how strong Goku and Vegeta have been portrayed in the anime from time to time. Much stronger than most of the threats they faced but not completely above them. This also lines up well with how strong I generally place Goku, Vegeta, Final Form Freeza, etc., at the level of some for of Majin Buu, just not the upper ones like Buutenks or Buuhan.

Again, this is all just personal speculation on my part, and I could've easily made mistakes.

I think Cell level is too generous for kaioshin. The future Trunks saga shows Trunk, kibito, and Shin all having difficulty against Dabura and Babidi. If Shin were Cell level I would imagine that fight would be far easier and the only reason they won is because Trunks went SSJ2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:42 am

TheMikado wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Yes. Whis says that everyone at the "Kaioshin level" got taken out by the roar.
From what I've gathered from the manga and the anime, in general, the gods of each status seem occupy the same general range of power.

If we predicate our analyses on this premise, then we can make more clear power-scaling conclusions.

That would mean that, even in the manga, Goku in his base form is above the Kaioshin. Of course, that then begs the question of how strong the average Kaioshin is. For this, we have to look at what was presented in the Buu Saga back during the original manga and anime. I'm not as well-versed in this as others are since I've only gotten back into Dragon Ball in the past 4 years or so, but I'll do my best.

(Super) Perfect Cell was apparently the point at which the Kaioshin were surpassed on Earth, if one is to believe Shin. We also have Pure Buu killing nearly all of the Kaioshin in Universe 7 with ease, something which would make sense if their power rests somewhere below Cell, with occasional outlier Kaioshin.

That'd mean that, at the very least, Goku in his base form, at least in the manga, is at the very least around Cell's level, and could easily be higher. This actually lines up well with how strong Goku and Vegeta have been portrayed in the anime from time to time. Much stronger than most of the threats they faced but not completely above them. This also lines up well with how strong I generally place Goku, Vegeta, Final Form Freeza, etc., at the level of some for of Majin Buu, just not the upper ones like Buutenks or Buuhan.

Again, this is all just personal speculation on my part, and I could've easily made mistakes.

I think Cell level is too generous for kaioshin. The future Trunks saga shows Trunk, kibito, and Shin all having difficulty against Dabura and Babidi. If Shin were Cell level I would imagine that fight would be far easier and the only reason they won is because Trunks went SSJ2.
Oh no no no, I don't place the Kaioshin on Cell's level. I said that Cell was the point where they were surpassed. Basically, once Cell became Perfect and/or Super Perfect, he surpassed the Kaioshin. That's why I said that that would potentially place base Goku's strength around Cell's level at the very minimum, because the Kaioshin were only surpassed once Cell came into the picture.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:45 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
From what I've gathered from the manga and the anime, in general, the gods of each status seem occupy the same general range of power.

If we predicate our analyses on this premise, then we can make more clear power-scaling conclusions.

That would mean that, even in the manga, Goku in his base form is above the Kaioshin. Of course, that then begs the question of how strong the average Kaioshin is. For this, we have to look at what was presented in the Buu Saga back during the original manga and anime. I'm not as well-versed in this as others are since I've only gotten back into Dragon Ball in the past 4 years or so, but I'll do my best.

(Super) Perfect Cell was apparently the point at which the Kaioshin were surpassed on Earth, if one is to believe Shin. We also have Pure Buu killing nearly all of the Kaioshin in Universe 7 with ease, something which would make sense if their power rests somewhere below Cell, with occasional outlier Kaioshin.

That'd mean that, at the very least, Goku in his base form, at least in the manga, is at the very least around Cell's level, and could easily be higher. This actually lines up well with how strong Goku and Vegeta have been portrayed in the anime from time to time. Much stronger than most of the threats they faced but not completely above them. This also lines up well with how strong I generally place Goku, Vegeta, Final Form Freeza, etc., at the level of some for of Majin Buu, just not the upper ones like Buutenks or Buuhan.

Again, this is all just personal speculation on my part, and I could've easily made mistakes.

I think Cell level is too generous for kaioshin. The future Trunks saga shows Trunk, kibito, and Shin all having difficulty against Dabura and Babidi. If Shin were Cell level I would imagine that fight would be far easier and the only reason they won is because Trunks went SSJ2.
Oh no no no, I don't place the Kaioshin on Cell's level. I said that Cell was the point where they were surpassed. Basically, once Cell became Perfect and/or Super Perfect, he surpassed the Kaioshin. That's why I said that that would potentially place base Goku's strength around Cell's level at the very minimum, because the Kaioshin were only surpassed once Cell came into the picture.
Ok gotcha. I still think it's a little too high. I would put him at stronger than Frieza but less than Cell. I would also put Kaioshin around Frieza level as it would make sense why they were both still around. Any higher and Kaioshin could have killed Frieza any time at will and vice-versa.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:50 am

TheMikado wrote:Ok gotcha. I still think it's a little too high. I would put him at stronger than Frieza but less than Cell. I would also put Kaioshin around Frieza level as it would make sense why they were both still around. Any higher and Kaioshin could have killed Frieza any time at will and vice-versa.
Wasn't that said verbatim in the manga, that the original Kaioshin of Universe 7 were more than capable of killing Freeza easily? I was talking about the Kaioshin in general, not necessarily Shin himself. I use "Shin" to differentiate him from the generic moniker of "Kaioshin" and to not confuse the two. Although him being incompetent and negligent of a threat like Freeza even though he could've easily defeated him is certainly within Shin's character.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MagmonKai » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:13 pm

I cannot believe they went this route and made Jiren the same realm of power as the GoDs. We're basically getting Goku vs Beerus round two. How are they going to keep Goku below Beerus now?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:36 pm

MagmonKai wrote:I cannot believe they went this route and made Jiren the same realm of power as the GoDs. We're basically getting Goku vs Beerus round two. How are they going to keep Goku below Beerus now?
You're surprised that specifically the manga went the "Geran being GoD level" route or you're surprised that both mediums went this route?
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:40 pm

MagmonKai wrote:I cannot believe they went this route and made Jiren the same realm of power as the GoDs. We're basically getting Goku vs Beerus round two. How are they going to keep Goku below Beerus now?
Easy, they're not. It looks like this arc is the one where Goku will finally surpass Beerus. After all, it's already been over a year since the interview where Toriyama said that he had no plans for Goku or Vegeta to surpass Beerus anytime soon. It's no longer anytime soon now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:04 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Easy, they're not. It looks like this arc is the one where Goku will finally surpass Beerus. After all, it's already been over a year since the interview where Toriyama said that he had no plans for Goku or Vegeta to surpass Beerus anytime soon. It's no longer anytime soon now.
And Beerus has been part of the Dragon Ball universe for going on 5 years now. If this is where Goku passes Beerus it's not like it hasn't taken a while.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:40 pm

SuperDragoon wrote:Nothing else needs to be said about it. Why should I bother counter arguing an idea the manga itself debunked? It'd be like getting into an arguement that Imperfect Cell was stronger than Perfect Cell. Vegetto is blatantly not superior to the Grand Priest.
And on your other comment him being above a hypothetical Gokhan or not means nothing to me. That still doesn't make Vegetto hundreds of times above Buuhan considering the nerfed multipliers.
Pleas explain to me why I'm wrong.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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