Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:07 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote:Nothing else needs to be said about it. Why should I bother counter arguing an idea the manga itself debunked? It'd be like getting into an arguement that Imperfect Cell was stronger than Perfect Cell. Vegetto is blatantly not superior to the Grand Priest.
And on your other comment him being above a hypothetical Gokhan or not means nothing to me. That still doesn't make Vegetto hundreds of times above Buuhan considering the nerfed multipliers.
Pleas explain to me why I'm wrong.
Well, first of all, SSB Vegetto is only ever compared to Beerus, not Whis, the Daishinkan, or Zeno. There's a definite "maybe, maybe not, but definitely a close call" tone to Shin's statement, in the sense that, in the Japanese context, could go either way because the difference is pretty small to make such a statement. The same sort of thing happened in the GT Perfect Files, where Vegetto is stated to possibly be stronger than a SS4 in the same vein as SSB Vegetto being said to possibly be stronger than Beerus.

Second, we see how badly Jiren, a mortal on the level of a Hakaishin at the very least, easily stomps SSB Goku with Kaio-kenX20. This one is particularly important because of the Genkidama struggle. During the fight with Pure Buu in the original manga/anime, Goku and Pure Buu are struggling with the Genkidama. Goku's in his base form and yet is managing to stalemate Pure Buu in their struggle to push the Genkidama. Once he gets his energy restored by the Namek Dragon Balls, he goes Super Saiyan and easily pushes the Genkidama at Pure Buu.

Then comes the struggle against Jiren. Despite Goku using the Kaio-kenX20 with SSB, Jiren is STILL able to overwhelm him. That's a MASSIVE difference, easily hundreds of times greater than Goku, and he STILL wasn't fully powered up. Given how much he toes on being at or above the level of the Hakaishin, that'd basically put a Hakaishin like Beerus at thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku, something that, hey, happily lines up with how much stronger Vegetto would be than Goku. This is actually a bigger difference than Goku against Freeza back on Namek, astronomically bigger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:46 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote:Nothing else needs to be said about it. Why should I bother counter arguing an idea the manga itself debunked? It'd be like getting into an arguement that Imperfect Cell was stronger than Perfect Cell. Vegetto is blatantly not superior to the Grand Priest.
And on your other comment him being above a hypothetical Gokhan or not means nothing to me. That still doesn't make Vegetto hundreds of times above Buuhan considering the nerfed multipliers.
Pleas explain to me why I'm wrong.
Well, first of all, SSB Vegetto is only ever compared to Beerus, not Whis, the Daishinkan, or Zeno. There's a definite "maybe, maybe not, but definitely a close call" tone to Shin's statement, in the sense that, in the Japanese context, could go either way because the difference is pretty small to make such a statement. The same sort of thing happened in the GT Perfect Files, where Vegetto is stated to possibly be stronger than a SS4 in the same vein as SSB Vegetto being said to possibly be stronger than Beerus.

Second, we see how badly Jiren, a mortal on the level of a Hakaishin at the very least, easily stomps SSB Goku with Kaio-kenX20. This one is particularly important because of the Genkidama struggle. During the fight with Pure Buu in the original manga/anime, Goku and Pure Buu are struggling with the Genkidama. Goku's in his base form and yet is managing to stalemate Pure Buu in their struggle to push the Genkidama. Once he gets his energy restored by the Namek Dragon Balls, he goes Super Saiyan and easily pushes the Genkidama at Pure Buu.

Then comes the struggle against Jiren. Despite Goku using the Kaio-kenX20 with SSB, Jiren is STILL able to overwhelm him. That's a MASSIVE difference, easily hundreds of times greater than Goku, and he STILL wasn't fully powered up. Given how much he toes on being at or above the level of the Hakaishin, that'd basically put a Hakaishin like Beerus at thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku, something that, hey, happily lines up with how much stronger Vegetto would be than Goku. This is actually a bigger difference than Goku against Freeza back on Namek, astronomically bigger.
I'm not talking about the anime, I'm talking about the manga & the movies, I've been saying that since my first post. The anime is a whole other story. But even in the anime, there is not much for us to know if Blue Vegetto or the Daishinkan is the strongest, yet. And all this say that Jiren & the Hakaishins are massively more powerful than SSBKKx20 Goku, nothing about how many times they are stronger. You are pulling numbers out of nowhere. Jiren can simply be x2 stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku and pull these feats, or even less than x2.

Also, I never, ever said that Blue Vegetto is definitely stronger than Daishinkan. What I said was, based on what we know, we don't know who is the strongest. What we do know is that Blue Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta (in both the anime & manga). So, until it is proven that the Daishinkan is thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, I'll place him below Blue Vegetto, because I'm not here to wank anyone, I'm simply going by what we know. I can't understand how this sounds so unbelievable, the Daishinkan barely has any feats, and only a few statements for his power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:23 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Miracles wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The angels aren't even x2 stronger than the Hakashins, so this also doesn't say much.
Where was this stated?
Toriyama in an interview said SSG Goku was a 6, Beerus a 10, and Whis a 15. However that power scaling does not apply to Super at all since not even SSB Goku is 60% of Beerus. Probably not even SSB kkx 20 is that strong. So pretty much that statement from Toriyama is irrelevant now.
That proves my point then. Thanks.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:24 pm

From the discussions I had with people here early in the year (or late year), believe said that Supreme Kai was stronger than Piccolo who is believed to be above Semi Perfect Cell. He shouldn't be as strong as Perfect Cell because Goku said Dabura was about as strong as him and Supreme Kai wasn't nearly as strong as him.

Again in Resurrection F, Frieza fought Base Goku and told him he knew he was going to be stronger than Buu but he was even more impressive than he thought. So he should be above Buu.

You could speculate which Buu that Frieza was referring to or if he would even know exactly but I'm sure the line was written into the movie to give the audience some kind of idea.
ZombieVito wrote:Yes. Whis says that everyone at the "Kaioshin level" got taken out by the roar.
Where do you get that from? Was is translated on here somewhere?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:07 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Pleas explain to me why I'm wrong.
Well, first of all, SSB Vegetto is only ever compared to Beerus, not Whis, the Daishinkan, or Zeno. There's a definite "maybe, maybe not, but definitely a close call" tone to Shin's statement, in the sense that, in the Japanese context, could go either way because the difference is pretty small to make such a statement. The same sort of thing happened in the GT Perfect Files, where Vegetto is stated to possibly be stronger than a SS4 in the same vein as SSB Vegetto being said to possibly be stronger than Beerus.

Second, we see how badly Jiren, a mortal on the level of a Hakaishin at the very least, easily stomps SSB Goku with Kaio-kenX20. This one is particularly important because of the Genkidama struggle. During the fight with Pure Buu in the original manga/anime, Goku and Pure Buu are struggling with the Genkidama. Goku's in his base form and yet is managing to stalemate Pure Buu in their struggle to push the Genkidama. Once he gets his energy restored by the Namek Dragon Balls, he goes Super Saiyan and easily pushes the Genkidama at Pure Buu.

Then comes the struggle against Jiren. Despite Goku using the Kaio-kenX20 with SSB, Jiren is STILL able to overwhelm him. That's a MASSIVE difference, easily hundreds of times greater than Goku, and he STILL wasn't fully powered up. Given how much he toes on being at or above the level of the Hakaishin, that'd basically put a Hakaishin like Beerus at thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku, something that, hey, happily lines up with how much stronger Vegetto would be than Goku. This is actually a bigger difference than Goku against Freeza back on Namek, astronomically bigger.
I'm not talking about the anime, I'm talking about the manga & the movies, I've been saying that since my first post. The anime is a whole other story. But even in the anime, there is not much for us to know if Blue Vegetto or the Daishinkan is the strongest, yet. And all this say that Jiren & the Hakaishins are massively more powerful than SSBKKx20 Goku, nothing about how many times they are stronger. You are pulling numbers out of nowhere. Jiren can simply be x2 stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku and pull these feats, or even less than x2.

Also, I never, ever said that Blue Vegetto is definitely stronger than Daishinkan. What I said was, based on what we know, we don't know who is the strongest. What we do know is that Blue Vegetto is thousands times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta (in both the anime & manga). So, until it is proven that the Daishinkan is thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, I'll place him below Blue Vegetto, because I'm not here to wank anyone, I'm simply going by what we know. I can't understand how this sounds so unbelievable, the Daishinkan barely has any feats, and only a few statements for his power.
Based purely on contextual clues, the uncertainty of Shin's statement on SSB Vegetto's strength, the placement of Vegetto is squarely somewhere around the level of Hakaishin, such that it could be above, at, OR above such a being. The anime provides evidence to support the idea of Hakaishin being thousands of time stronger than someone as strong as SSB Goku/Vegeta, what with my argument based on using the Pure Buu fight to scale for the Jiren fight. The manga could very well be the same.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:05 pm

Bullza wrote:From the discussions I had with people here early in the year (or late year), believe said that Supreme Kai was stronger than Piccolo who is believed to be above Semi Perfect Cell. He shouldn't be as strong as Perfect Cell because Goku said Dabura was about as strong as him and Supreme Kai wasn't nearly as strong as him.e?
Didn't Goku later admit that he sold Dabura short after watching him fight Gohan? He made the Cell comparison watching him kill Kibito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:13 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Bullza wrote:From the discussions I had with people here early in the year (or late year), believe said that Supreme Kai was stronger than Piccolo who is believed to be above Semi Perfect Cell. He shouldn't be as strong as Perfect Cell because Goku said Dabura was about as strong as him and Supreme Kai wasn't nearly as strong as him.e?
Didn't Goku later admit that he sold Dabura short after watching him fight Gohan? He made the Cell comparison watching him kill Kibito.
Yeah later on he said that Dabura was tougher than he thought and of course he thought Dabura was as strong as Cell.

So Dabura > Cell.

Supreme Kai would still be weaker than Cell though for Goku to even say that at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:25 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:17 and Goku were just dicking around with Ribriane, I'm almost certain.
17 had the time to help Goku out and ignore Ribriane (he was screaming and looking mad because he was playin her, he even acted like a bad guy like some role play shit), Vegeta in SSJ was just creeped out by her, and Goku's just being Goku. Now that they're used to her fighting style they adapted and basically can handle her in base, if anything I'd advise her to just go for 18 or Piccolo, at least there she'll have a chance.
Really their is not moment or wording that 17, Vegeta or Goku said that would conclude to they where "Dicking" around with Ribrianne, if you watch the episode and read the words it was exactly 180. They all say she was more powerful then they thought, I More then Certain of that and that they where serious about their fights with her then Many want to give her credit for then for whatever reasons. Again, the level of the battle by 17 was still done by Ribrianne as well, she left 17 just as fast to rescue her friend Rozie from Goku, so the ideal goes both ways, they where both strong enough to leave each other. ;)

Ribrianne Also broke that Grand Shield of 17's in 1 Punch, hardly a feat that is weak by many standards.

The Vegeta "Gross-Out" moment was not by any reality by the translation said about her being weak either, just a joke about Vegeta moving away cause she found her not attractive, nothing to do about power level. Silly and a cop-out their but one that was made for laughs, not to show power level. Also, Vegeta said she was stronger then he thought by how the fight was shown, was fighting serious during their 1st fight at SSJ-1 and he never powered down during that fight at all, so it shows he knew what he was up against.

The Base Goku Fight is just Lazy writing or Toei's over love for Base Goku. I also heard some rumor that it is a budget thing, it is cheaper to draw base then SSJs, which hardly makes sense and I hope is not the case but knowing how Toei likes to cut animation corners it sadly would not surprise me either. :problem:

The Goku Base fight as strange as it was, still had Goku being impressed by her Fighting Spirit. Hardly a small term to say in the least. Also Universe 8's GoD Liquiir was also Impressed by Ribrianne as well. A GoD that is part of a Universe that is above all that are competing in this ToP and is the ultimate judge of allot of things in his High Mortal Level Universe, judging a girl he just meet as being impressed by her is again not a small complement.

Finally, the Vegeta base Fight made FAR more Sense on why that was a Base Fight then Goku's was, my Review of that Fights Meaning can be found at the link below;

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=40110&start=200#p1396800

Whether Toei is always good at showing it or not, they have made it pretty clear Ribrianne is a fighter you need to watch-out for. They are promoting her like that with what they say and how they are marketing her, they just not always showing it 100% defined well, like the Goku Base fight, but they do it well with the other fights. She will likely end up being one of the key players in all of this and the story so far has gone EXACTLY how I thought it would based on how Magical Girl/Sailor Moon/Precure story arcs for their heroes go, also a House Toei Built to a T!

The point it Ribrianne has shown some great feats already, but her best IMO is still yet to come. ;) :thumbup:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:30 pm

Goku being stronger than the Kaioshin lines up perfectly with Krillin and co. not being able to follow his and Frost's movements in the U7 v U6 tournament. At the very least, Goku should be stronger than his Perfect Cell in his base form.

That'd also hold true for Gohan, who was shown to be on par with Goku in Base/SS. Which would again make sense, since he appeared to be stronger than Piccolo in his Base in RoF.

What doesn't add up is the fact that even Super Saiyan Gohan was no match for First Form Freeza, but Base Goku held an advantage over True Form Freeza.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:15 am

Bullza wrote:From the discussions I had with people here early in the year (or late year), believe said that Supreme Kai was stronger than Piccolo who is believed to be above Semi Perfect Cell. He shouldn't be as strong as Perfect Cell because Goku said Dabura was about as strong as him and Supreme Kai wasn't nearly as strong as him.

Again in Resurrection F, Frieza fought Base Goku and told him he knew he was going to be stronger than Buu but he was even more impressive than he thought. So he should be above Buu.

You could speculate which Buu that Frieza was referring to or if he would even know exactly but I'm sure the line was written into the movie to give the audience some kind of idea.
ZombieVito wrote:Yes. Whis says that everyone at the "Kaioshin level" got taken out by the roar.
Where do you get that from? Was is translated on here somewhere?
SethTheProgrammer had translated scans in his recent video.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by STH » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:56 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
STH wrote: In my opinion they are separate things.
Like Mystic/ultimate Gohan and Base Gohan.

Base Goku is as strong as Goku in Buu Saga.
Beyond God (/God-like) Goku is far stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Buu saga.
I agree with you. I don't think the staff and writers intended it to happen, but it needs to happen.

In my opinion, after losing SSGod, Goku gained God-enhanced Saiyan and God-enhanced Super Saiyan.

The training with Whis allows for greater Ki control and he morphed God-enhanced Saiyan into SSGod and God-enhanced Super Saiyan into SSBlue.

Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << God-enhanced Saiyan < God-enhanced Super Saiyan < SSGod < SSBlue < SSBlue Kaioken << Ultra Instinct
Yes, I think so too. :D :thumbup:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:37 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Based purely on contextual clues, the uncertainty of Shin's statement on SSB Vegetto's strength, the placement of Vegetto is squarely somewhere around the level of Hakaishin, such that it could be above, at, OR above such a being.
I never said that Blue Vegetto is definitely stronger than the Daishinkan. Kaioshin gives us the possibility that Blue Vegetto is stronger than Beerus, but we don't even know if Vegetto was going all out in the first place because he was messing around with Zamasu, and the fight was very small. He only started getting serious with his Final Kamehameha, which is when Kaioshin started to realize that Vegetto may be stronger than Beerus, and he didn't even get the chance to use it because the whole fusion broke down because he was too powerful. But we know for a fact that Blue Vegetto is thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta. And we know for a fact that Goku & Vegeta are getting close to Beerus with their Perfect Super Saiyan Blue, since PSSB Vegeta forced Beerus to go all out on him to beat him, so in the manga, Beerus is definitely not thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta (unless if you believe that PSSB is thousands times stronger than SSB for some reason). So, I'm not going to assume that the Daishinkan is thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku or Beerus without seeing some feats or power statements suggesting that.
The anime provides evidence to support the idea of Hakaishin being thousands of time stronger than someone as strong as SSB Goku/Vegeta, what with my argument based on using the Pure Buu fight to scale for the Jiren fight.
None of what you said even hints at the possibility of Jiren & the Hakaishins being thousands of times stronger. Jiren's feats only tell us that he is much stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku, nothing about how much stronger, for all we know he could have been x2 stronger than Goku. Is it possible? Maybe, but nothing supports it so far.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:49 am

Think of it like this, then. FOR THE ANIME.

Despite using SSB with Kaio-kenX20 to push the Genkidama, Goku is STILL only barely stalemating Jiren, much like his Genkidama struggle with Pure Buu. The main difference is that the latter was a bit more even, what with Jiren effortlessly keeping up the pressure on Goku compared to Pure Buu only barely pushing the Genkidama away.

Mind you, Goku was in his base form. That's a 400 times difference between him and Pure Buu, and yet Jiren was STILL doing better against SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku. WITH HIS EYES. Based purely on power-scaling the two scenarios, that'd make Jiren over 400 times stronger than SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku. At a minimum, he's 8000 times stronger than SSB Goku, which in turn would mean that the Hakaishin occupy a similar range of power.

Conveniently enough, that's also how strong Vegetto could be placed compared to Goku, around the level of Buutenks based on the Buu Saga's power-scaling.

If this isn't enough to at least give people pause, then I'm afraid there's nothing left to convince you with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:59 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Think of it like this, then. FOR THE ANIME.

Despite using SSB with Kaio-kenX20 to push the Genkidama, Goku is STILL only barely stalemating Jiren, much like his Genkidama struggle with Pure Buu. The main difference is that the latter was a bit more even, what with Jiren effortlessly keeping up the pressure on Goku compared to Pure Buu only barely pushing the Genkidama away.

Mind you, Goku was in his base form. That's a 400 times difference between him and Pure Buu, and yet Jiren was STILL doing better against SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku. WITH HIS EYES. Based purely on power-scaling the two scenarios, that'd make Jiren over 400 times stronger than SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku. At a minimum, he's 8000 times stronger than SSB Goku, which in turn would mean that the Hakaishin occupy a similar range of power.

Conveniently enough, that's also how strong Vegetto could be placed compared to Goku, around the level of Buutenks based on the Buu Saga's power-scaling.

If this isn't enough to at least give people pause, then I'm afraid there's nothing left to convince you with.
You are still pulling numbers out of nowhere just by telling me how strong Jiren is, and I never started a conversation about the anime in the first place. I love the anime, but it's more messy & unclear when it comes to battle powers, so for the time being I don't want to be bothered by it.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:08 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Think of it like this, then. FOR THE ANIME.

Despite using SSB with Kaio-kenX20 to push the Genkidama, Goku is STILL only barely stalemating Jiren, much like his Genkidama struggle with Pure Buu. The main difference is that the latter was a bit more even, what with Jiren effortlessly keeping up the pressure on Goku compared to Pure Buu only barely pushing the Genkidama away.

Mind you, Goku was in his base form. That's a 400 times difference between him and Pure Buu, and yet Jiren was STILL doing better against SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku. WITH HIS EYES. Based purely on power-scaling the two scenarios, that'd make Jiren over 400 times stronger than SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku. At a minimum, he's 8000 times stronger than SSB Goku, which in turn would mean that the Hakaishin occupy a similar range of power.

Conveniently enough, that's also how strong Vegetto could be placed compared to Goku, around the level of Buutenks based on the Buu Saga's power-scaling.

If this isn't enough to at least give people pause, then I'm afraid there's nothing left to convince you with.
You are still pulling numbers out of nowhere just by telling me how strong Jiren is, and I never started a conversation about the anime in the first place. I love the anime, but it's more messy & unclear when it comes to battle powers, so for the time being I don't want to be bothered by it.
These "numbers pulled out of nowhere" are inferences based on past precedence and multipliers made official by guidebooks. SS3's 400 times multiplier, measuring the Pure Buu Genkidama struggle up against Jiren's to figure out the minimum numerical difference, and figuring out how strong Vegetto would be in comparison.

===

The manga has less evidence but evidence nonetheless. For example, the Final Kamehameha? We know that such an attack combines the principles of the Kamehameha and the Final Flash. And guess what else? Both attacks can surpass a user's normal limits by putting out enough power to damage opponents stronger than them, as seen with Perfect Cell and Merged Zamasu in the anime. Both times, the user of the Final Flash/Full-Power Kamehameha wasn't as strong as his opponent, and yet still managed to damage them. This means that SSB Vegetto would be able to hit a much stronger opponent than himself using a charged up Final Kamehameha, say........ someone above a Hakaishin?

Based on that, SSB Vegetto could easily be around a Hakaishin's level but be able to hit above that class by using a Final Kamehameha, thus the "perhaps even stronger" line.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:15 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:These "numbers pulled out of nowhere" are inferences based on past precedence and multipliers made official by guidebooks. SS3's 400 times multiplier, measuring the Pure Buu Genkidama struggle up against Jiren's to figure out the minimum numerical difference, and figuring out how strong Vegetto would be in comparison.
I don't disagree with the official multipliers, but I disagree with your numbers.
The manga has less evidence but evidence nonetheless. For example, the Final Kamehameha? We know that such an attack combines the principles of the Kamehameha and the Final Flash. And guess what else? Both attacks can surpass a user's normal limits by putting out enough power to damage opponents stronger than them, as seen with Perfect Cell and Merged Zamasu in the anime. Both times, the user of the Final Flash/Full-Power Kamehameha wasn't as strong as his opponent, and yet still managed to damage them. This means that SSB Vegetto would be able to hit a much stronger opponent than himself using a charged up Final Kamehameha, say........ someone above a Hakaishin?

Based on that, SSB Vegetto could easily be around a Hakaishin's level but be able to hit above that class by using a Final Kamehameha, thus the "perhaps even stronger" line.
That's assuming that Blue Vegetto was fighting at full power. And we have enough reasons to conclude that he wasn't at full power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:40 pm

Bullza wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Bullza wrote:From the discussions I had with people here early in the year (or late year), believe said that Supreme Kai was stronger than Piccolo who is believed to be above Semi Perfect Cell. He shouldn't be as strong as Perfect Cell because Goku said Dabura was about as strong as him and Supreme Kai wasn't nearly as strong as him.e?
Didn't Goku later admit that he sold Dabura short after watching him fight Gohan? He made the Cell comparison watching him kill Kibito.
Yeah later on he said that Dabura was tougher than he thought and of course he thought Dabura was as strong as Cell.

So Dabura > Cell.

Supreme Kai would still be weaker than Cell though for Goku to even say that at all.
Keep in mind, Shin was stated to be the weakest Supreme Kai in U7 in both the manga and anime. In the anime, South Supreme Kai could trade blows with Kid Buu.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:43 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Goku being stronger than the Kaioshin lines up perfectly with Krillin and co. not being able to follow his and Frost's movements in the U7 v U6 tournament. At the very least, Goku should be stronger than his Perfect Cell in his base form.

That'd also hold true for Gohan, who was shown to be on par with Goku in Base/SS. Which would again make sense, since he appeared to be stronger than Piccolo in his Base in RoF.

What doesn't add up is the fact that even Super Saiyan Gohan was no match for First Form Freeza, but Base Goku held an advantage over True Form Freeza.
That’s because Gohan’s base form wasn’t on par with Goku until Episode 90, where a stronger than ever base form Gohan traded blows equally with base formGoku and they were both serious.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:52 pm

HeroR wrote:
Bullza wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Didn't Goku later admit that he sold Dabura short after watching him fight Gohan? He made the Cell comparison watching him kill Kibito.
Yeah later on he said that Dabura was tougher than he thought and of course he thought Dabura was as strong as Cell.

So Dabura > Cell.

Supreme Kai would still be weaker than Cell though for Goku to even say that at all.
Keep in mind, Shin was stated to be the weakest Supreme Kai in U7 in both the manga and anime. In the anime, South Supreme Kai could trade blows with Kid Buu.
And then Grand Supreme Kai was able to turn Roid Rage Buu into cubes with little effort.

Shin really needs to step up his game.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:55 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Yeah later on he said that Dabura was tougher than he thought and of course he thought Dabura was as strong as Cell.

So Dabura > Cell.

Supreme Kai would still be weaker than Cell though for Goku to even say that at all.
Keep in mind, Shin was stated to be the weakest Supreme Kai in U7 in both the manga and anime. In the anime, South Supreme Kai could trade blows with Kid Buu.
And then Grand Supreme Kai was able to turn Roid Rage Buu into cubes with little effort.

Shin really needs to step up his game.
Despite everything else changing throughout the franchise, this is one of the main constants. Shin i just a terrible Kaioshin in every way.

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