Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:32 pm

Hakaishin Liquir wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Fifty times stronger seems like too big of a pill to swallow.
After two trips in the ROSAT, where on both occasions he trained so hard he blew up the damn place, and constantly going over to train intensely with Whis in his spare time, it's not hard at all to imagine Vegeta's strength skyrocketing. from the Champa arc to now.
Hakaishin Liquir wrote: But they've been trying to establish that the U6 Saiyans have more potential than Goku and Vegeta, so base Cabba should have been able to keep up with base Vegeta as long as he's been training.
Not having access to facilities like the ROSAT or having the tutelage of martial artists like Whis would always give Vegeta the big advantage over Cabba in terms of building power.
One of those trips was for only an hour or less. The excuse that Vegeta could get much stronger than Cabba because he has better training methods doesn't really make sense when Gohan can reach SSB level by training with Piccolo for a few hours, Freeza can keep up with SSB Goku and Vegeta by only doing image training, 17 can reach SSB level (despite not having the gravity chamber, RoSaT, Whis, or someone else to train with), and Krillin (who ever had as much potential as Base Goku) can get much stronger by lifting weights in his basement for a few weeks, and Roshi, despite being way past his prime, can somehow get thousands of times stronger by training off-screen for a year. If all of these people, some of which don't even have as much potential as Goku and Vegeta, can get much stronger despite not using high-quality training methods, then why can't Cabba even though he was shown to have more potential than Vegeta?
Gains made in training do not work on universal gradient in Dragon Ball. Just because Character A became X times stronger though method Y, doesn't mean that Character B or Character C will also become X times stronger though method Y. That being said, "potential" is such a crapshoot in Dragon Ball. It's a plot device that can be handed to anyone at any given time to suit the circumstances of the narrative. It's a literal roulette wheel when it comes to how much dormant power a certain character can tap into through specific circumstances. We've had zero hints that guys like Krillin, Android 17 and Roshi could make massive gains through certain kinds of training, but if the plot needs a character to be relevant, their strength will bloat like nothing before it. Piccolo is a prime example of this in the original story. He makes monstrous jumps through mundane training, yet he hits a glass ceiling when it came to training in the ROSAT of all places.

And keep in mind, characters like Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo is only as strong as he is because of the special training some of them have received to over the years (Training with Grandpa Gohan, Kami, Popo, Korin, King Kai and Whis, the ROSAT, The Gravity Machine etc). Cabba may have potential, but what good is that if he doesn't have any of those kinds mentors or facilities at his disposal to explore and expand on that?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:59 pm

Doctor. wrote: Still, we know Cabba isn't too far off from Vegeta considering Caulifla and Goku were on the same level (even if Goku had the upperhand) and we know Caulifla isn't considerably stronger than Cabba. To add on to this, we saw Caulifla defeating both Jimeze and one of those robots that attacked Gohan that also attacked Goku in this episode. This means she's either stronger than base Gohan or around his level and we know base Gohan and base Goku are comparable.
Pretty much this. Caulifla shouldn't be much weaker than Goku form-by-form, so Cabba shouldn't be that much weaker than Vegeta either. Frankly, I'm not seeing how a brief shot of base Vegeta fending off Monna with a ki blast (with her apparently being unharmed) proves he's stronger than her.

This is just a case of people seeing what they want to see and extrapolating from that.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:10 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:Toei does it once again: Monna was beating the crap out of Cabba... but Base Vegeta blasted her away like she was nothing. :lol:
Wasn't it stated that she was only blown away because it was a cheap shot?

Again, I don't what was so internally inconsistent about the episode, and even if it was internally inconsistent because it didn't follow everyones exact numbers, I still exactly see the problem.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:37 pm

So from the new episode.

Looks like Monna is inbetween Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 strength. That could make her around the same level as Zamasu.

Vegeta blew Monna away easy in Base form but it's supposed to be a cheap shot.

Frieza was clearly above Base Cabba, he was exhausted but still. He did have to turn Golden though when Cabba went Super Saiyan 2 so we can say that Frieza could also possibly be between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 level.
ZombieVito wrote:Whis also confirms that Goku only has 5 transformations. This along with Shin getting knocked out puts the final nail in the coffin for SbG.
Oh yeah, good point I never though about that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by precita » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:41 pm

Guys, Kid Trunks kicked Fat Buu about 10 yards back in the Buu saga because it was a "cheap shot" and Buu had no idea he was there.

Characters much weaker than others can knock away other characters if they don't know they're there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:43 pm

precita wrote:Guys, Kid Trunks kicked Fat Buu about 10 yards back in the Buu saga because it was a "cheap shot" and Buu had no idea he was there.

Characters much weaker than others can knock away other characters if they don't know they're there.
Yup, Piccolo also kicked Frieza flying into the sea back and Krillin did the same to Dodoria in the Namek saga as well.

As others have said Vegeta should be quite a bit stronger than Cabba after everything he went through in the Future Trunks saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:51 pm

supercat wrote:Whis
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Hit
Kale
Dyspo
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Sorry, but Jiren is not stronger than Vegetto Blue nor UI Goku didn't had surpassed Beerus :)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:54 pm

Noah wrote:
supercat wrote:Whis
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Hit
Kale
Dyspo
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Sorry, but Jiren is not stronger than Vegetto Blue nor UI Goku didn't had surpassed Beerus :)
Why on either of those? There's plenty of evidence Jiren is above Vegetto and Goku being above Beerus isn't impossible considering his response to a suppressed Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:01 pm

SuperDragoon wrote:Why on either of those? There's plenty of evidence Jiren is above Vegetto and Goku being above Beerus isn't impossible considering his response to a suppressed Jiren.
First off, none of these were implied and second if Jiren was above Vegetto Blue he wouldn't even try to avoid SSJB Goku attacks as Vegetto is many times stronger than him, with or without the Kaioken.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:07 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Whis also confirms that Goku only has 5 transformations. This along with Shin getting knocked out puts the final nail in the coffin for SbG.
Oh yeah, good point I never though about that.
While I agree sbg isn't a thing, Goku never absorbed SSG power into his base form in the manga version of Super, so a manga line of Goku having only 5 forms doesn't prove much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:31 pm

Noah wrote:
SuperDragoon wrote:Why on either of those? There's plenty of evidence Jiren is above Vegetto and Goku being above Beerus isn't impossible considering his response to a suppressed Jiren.
First off, none of these were implied and second if Jiren was above Vegetto Blue he wouldn't even try to avoid SSJB Goku attacks as Vegetto is many times stronger than him, with or without the Kaioken.
Super is trying to get rid of the power-scale(some of the time), I have no doubt that Jiren is at least comparable to Vegetto Blue because they've never felt anyone as strong as him before. Frost was many times stronger than Roshi, I think we can agree on that, but he still had to block his attacks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:42 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Whis also confirms that Goku only has 5 transformations. This along with Shin getting knocked out puts the final nail in the coffin for SbG.

Whis also says that some of the GoD shouldn't be standing after the roar.
Um, seriously? This is a really horrific argument. We've already known that in the manga SBG doesn't exist?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:02 am

I'm really curious to see how Kale's Super Saiyan forms stack up against Goku's, particularly Berserker vs. SS3.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:11 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:I'm really curious to see how Kale's Super Saiyan forms stack up against Goku's, particularly Berserker vs. SS3.
Why? Didn't we already saw supressed SSJB Goku using a Kamehameha that did no effect on her? So she is supposedly stronger than SSJ3
Last edited by Noah on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:13 am

Noah wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:I'm really curious to see how Kale's Super Saiyan forms stack up against Goku's, particularly Berserker vs. SS3.
Why? Didn't we already saw supressed SSJB Goku using Kamehameha that did no effect on her? So he is supposedly stronger than SSJ3
Just to see what happens and whether it puts to rest that whole HOLDING BACK thing that comes up every time you mention that scene or not. Plus we've never seen Kale's Super Saiyan form fight anyone so we don't know if it's just regular SS. But if the 114 preview is anything to go by that fight might not play out at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:37 am

What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:54 am

Bullza wrote:What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?
Makes enough sense imo, gohan while not as strong is comparable to goku base, and he was struggling a little so it just prove base goham>/=piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:17 am

brett wheeler wrote:
Bullza wrote:What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?
Makes enough sense imo, gohan while not as strong is comparable to goku base, and he was struggling a little so it just prove base goham>/=piccolo.
It really doesn't make sense unless getting mystic again boosted his base because Frieza is stronger than post Buu saga base Goku, who should be stronger than every version of base Gohan.

Even if you completely ignore that Piccolo just beat ssj2 Gohan not that long ago. So does that mean Gohan got over 100x stronger in a day of training?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:19 am

brett wheeler wrote:
Bullza wrote:What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?
Makes enough sense imo, gohan while not as strong is comparable to goku base, and he was struggling a little so it just prove base goham>/=piccolo.
So what about Piccolo with weights on easily beating Super Saiyan Gohan and without the weights even beating Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

Do you think the current Base Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from what was a couple days ago?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:49 am

dragon boss z wrote:
brett wheeler wrote:
Bullza wrote:What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?
Makes enough sense imo, gohan while not as strong is comparable to goku base, and he was struggling a little so it just prove base goham>/=piccolo.
It really doesn't make sense unless getting mystic again boosted his base because Frieza is stronger than post Buu saga base Goku, who should be stronger than every version of base Gohan.

Even if you completely ignore that Piccolo just beat ssj2 Gohan not that long ago. So does that mean Gohan got over 100x stronger in a day of training?
I already told you that I believe regaining mystic powered up Gohan's base. This episode established that.
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