Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

Makes enough sense imo, gohan while not as strong is comparable to goku base, and he was struggling a little so it just prove base goham>/=piccolo.

It really doesn't make sense unless getting mystic again boosted his base because Frieza is stronger than post Buu saga base Goku, who should be stronger than every version of base Gohan.

Even if you completely ignore that Piccolo just beat ssj2 Gohan not that long ago. So does that mean Gohan got over 100x stronger in a day of training?

I already told you that I believe regaining mystic powered up Gohan's base. This episode established that.

I wouldn't say it established that. I would just say it's evidence. We need to wait for them to fight more. For all we know Piccolo isn't at full power yet.

[apex_pretador]

Some notes
- Monna beats down SS cabba but Vegeta blows away her in base. Doesn't do any damage though
- SS2 cabba wrecks Monna and (forces?) makes Freeza transform
- Base Gohan's almost equal, maybe a bit above piccolo
- Toppo fights evenly with Vegeta
- Goku is weakened and caulifla and kale recovered

[HeroR]

What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?

That base form Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, but we knew that from Episode 90 since Piccolo's attack did nothing to base form Goku while base form Gohan fought Goku evenly.

So what about Piccolo with weights on easily beating Super Saiyan Gohan and without the weights even beating Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

Do you think the current Base Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from what was a couple days ago?

It was said in Episode 90 that Gohan has gotten much stronger by Goku. So yes, current base form Gohan is above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from Episode 88.

I wouldn't say it established that. I would just say it's evidence. We need to wait for them to fight more. For all we know Piccolo isn't at full power yet.

Piccolo wouldn't be at his 'full power' at this stage since he already wasted a bunch of stamina regenerating. There is also little reason for him to hold back to the point of being nearly crippled. He isn't Gohan.

Some notes
- Monna beats down SS cabba but Vegeta blows away her in base. Doesn't do any damage though
- SS2 cabba wrecks Monna and (forces?) makes Freeza transform
- Base Gohan's almost equal, maybe a bit above piccolo
- Toppo fights evenly with Vegeta
- Goku is weakened and caulifla and kale recovered

- That either means that Vegeta's base form got much stronger than Cabba since the Champa Saga (which makes sense with the Future Trunks Saga) or we take Monna at her word that Vegeta just got in a cheap shot. Maybe it's both.

- Makes sense since Freeza should be weaker than base forms Goku and Vegeta since true form Freeza back in Resurrection 'F' was noticeably weaker than base form Goku, while his golden form was superior to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is equal to Golden Freeza, the different between base form Goku and true form Freeza should be greater. In short, while Freeza true form may overpower a weakened base form Cabba, it stands no chance against Super Saiyan and especially Super Saiyan 2 if Cabba's base form is within range of Goku and Vegeta.

- Gohan's base form is certainly above Piccolo since Gohan was shown to be even with base form Goku, who tanked a charged attack from Piccolo. So far, nothing puts Piccolo on the level of Super Saiyan Goku.

- Makes sense since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku was supposedly equal to Toppo and Goku was ready to used the Kaioken (whether he actually needed it or not is debatable). It's still a little soon to call this, though, since Toppo and Vegeta haven't really fought yet.

[Tombstone1988]

Toei does it once again: Monna was beating the crap out of Cabba... but Base Vegeta blasted her away like she was nothing.

Wasn't it stated that she was only blown away because it was a cheap shot?

Again, I don't what was so internally inconsistent about the episode, and even if it was internally inconsistent because it didn't follow everyones exact numbers, I still exactly see the problem.

I think the two main issues are Monna's relative strength and how the "cheap shot" was presented. Most cheap shots in the DB franchise occur when a character is looking away or unaware of the attacker's presence. In this case, the "cheap shot" was a POV shot where Monna was quite clearly looking directly at Vegeta. She was still enlarged, so her power should be at least high enough to dwarf SSJ Cabba. The real issue I guess is that the scene was sloppy. Having her deflate or look away or just having Vegeta be a Super Saiyan would have made so much more sense.

[brett wheeler]

What do we think about Gohan not transforming and still holding his own against the U6 Namekians who were giving Piccolo an even enough fight?

Makes enough sense imo, gohan while not as strong is comparable to goku base, and he was struggling a little so it just prove base goham>/=piccolo.

So what about Piccolo with weights on easily beating Super Saiyan Gohan and without the weights even beating Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

Do you think the current Base Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from what was a couple days ago?

I wouldn't doubt it super has done this kinda stuff before so its nothing new, personal I think there's a lot of evidence for this as piccolo's full power attack made goku sweat but wasn't stronger than goku, then base gohan did the same thing with a full power punch witch probably means base gohan and piccolo are at least comparable at least imo.

[apex_pretador]

Post

Okay let's see your points one by one

That either means that Vegeta's base form got much stronger than Cabba since the Champa Saga (which makes sense with the Future Trunks Saga) or we take Monna at her word that Vegeta just got in a cheap shot. Maybe it's both.

It being a cheap shot makes no sense except being an excuse. Monna was charging towards Vegeta and looking towards him.
Vegeta being stronger than cabba was established already when he no-sold his full power punch

Makes sense since Freeza should be weaker than base forms Goku and Vegeta since true form Freeza back in Resurrection 'F' was noticeably weaker than base form Goku, while his golden form was superior to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is equal to Golden Freeza, the different between base form Goku and true form Freeza should be greater. In short, while Freeza true form may overpower a weakened base form Cabba, it stands no chance against Super Saiyan and especially Super Saiyan 2 if Cabba's base form is within range of Goku and Vegeta.

This is not movie versions. Freeza was atleast Goku's equal and possibly not serious.

Base Gohan fights evenly with base Goku and gets stomped by jimiz who gets stomped by final form freeza.

Gohan's base form is certainly above Piccolo since Gohan was shown to be even with base form Goku, who tanked a charged attack from Piccolo. So far, nothing puts Piccolo on the level of Super Saiyan Goku.

He was also struggling against namekians who were about equal to piccolo.

[HeroR]

Post

Okay let's see your points one by one

That either means that Vegeta's base form got much stronger than Cabba since the Champa Saga (which makes sense with the Future Trunks Saga) or we take Monna at her word that Vegeta just got in a cheap shot. Maybe it's both.

It being a cheap shot makes no sense except being an excuse. Monna was charging towards Vegeta and looking towards him.
Vegeta being stronger than cabba was established already when he no-sold his full power punch

Makes sense since Freeza should be weaker than base forms Goku and Vegeta since true form Freeza back in Resurrection 'F' was noticeably weaker than base form Goku, while his golden form was superior to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is equal to Golden Freeza, the different between base form Goku and true form Freeza should be greater. In short, while Freeza true form may overpower a weakened base form Cabba, it stands no chance against Super Saiyan and especially Super Saiyan 2 if Cabba's base form is within range of Goku and Vegeta.

This is not movie versions. Freeza was atleast Goku's equal and possibly not serious.

Base Gohan fights evenly with base Goku and gets stomped by jimiz who gets stomped by final form freeza.

Gohan's base form is certainly above Piccolo since Gohan was shown to be even with base form Goku, who tanked a charged attack from Piccolo. So far, nothing puts Piccolo on the level of Super Saiyan Goku.

He was also struggling against namekians who were about equal to piccolo.

Nope, in the Champa Saga, they were even match in base. This is the exact quote:

"He's good! Looks like we're evenly match in normal form. At this rate, this match is going nowhere."

So unless you think Vegeta was lying to himself, he had no reason to say Cabba was an even match when he wasn't, especially since he didn't know he didn't have Super Saiyan. So either Vegeta got stronger so his base form is now stronger than Cabba, or take Monna at her word. And for the record, Vegeta's attack didn't even do any damaged to her.

Nope, even in the retelling Goku was superior. Freeze didn't even hit Goku in the retelling until he kept attacking his friends and he did no damaged to Goku. And why wouldn't Freeze be serious when he's trying to kill Goku's friends and even trying to poke Goku's eyes out? Gohan got stomped by Jimiz because Gohan couldn't counter his IT, while Freeza could. This isn't a matter of power.

The Namekians so far have shown to be above Piccolo since one of them by themselves temporarily disabled Piccolo. Gohan on the other hand has taken no real damaged and even intercepted one of the Nameks.

[JazzMazz]

Post

Okay let's see your points one by one

That either means that Vegeta's base form got much stronger than Cabba since the Champa Saga (which makes sense with the Future Trunks Saga) or we take Monna at her word that Vegeta just got in a cheap shot. Maybe it's both.

It being a cheap shot makes no sense except being an excuse. Monna was charging towards Vegeta and looking towards him.
Vegeta being stronger than cabba was established already when he no-sold his full power punch

Makes sense since Freeza should be weaker than base forms Goku and Vegeta since true form Freeza back in Resurrection 'F' was noticeably weaker than base form Goku, while his golden form was superior to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is equal to Golden Freeza, the different between base form Goku and true form Freeza should be greater. In short, while Freeza true form may overpower a weakened base form Cabba, it stands no chance against Super Saiyan and especially Super Saiyan 2 if Cabba's base form is within range of Goku and Vegeta.

This is not movie versions. Freeza was atleast Goku's equal and possibly not serious.

Base Gohan fights evenly with base Goku and gets stomped by jimiz who gets stomped by final form freeza.

Gohan's base form is certainly above Piccolo since Gohan was shown to be even with base form Goku, who tanked a charged attack from Piccolo. So far, nothing puts Piccolo on the level of Super Saiyan Goku.

He was also struggling against namekians who were about equal to piccolo.

Nope, in the Champa Saga, they were even match in base. This is the exact quote:

"He's good! Looks like we're evenly match in normal form. At this rate, this match is going nowhere."

So unless you think Vegeta was lying to himself, he had no reason to say Cabba was an even match when he wasn't, especially since he didn't know he didn't have Super Saiyan. So either think Vegeta got stronger so his base form is not stronger than Cabba, or take Monna at her word. And for the record, Vegeta's attack didn't even do any damaged to her.

Nope, even in the retelling Goku was superior. Freeze didn't even hit Goku in the retelling until he kept attacking his friends and he did no damaged to Goku. And why wouldn't Freeze be serious when he's trying to kill Goku's friends and even trying to poke Goku's eyes out? Gohan got stomped by Jimiz because Gohan couldn't counter his IT, while Freeza could. This isn't a matter of power.

The Namekians so far have shown to be above Piccolo since one of them by themselves temporarily disabled Piccolo. Gohan on the other hand has taken no real damaged and even intercepted one of the Nameks.

Small correction there, Gohan has been hit and was panting just as much as Piccolo was during their brief break during the fight. I think that lends credence that they were both using stamina.

So far, it looks like both the U6 Nameks and Gohan(base) and Piccolo are fairly evenly matched, with the U6 Nameks maybe having a slight edge.

[HeroR]

Small correction there, Gohan has been hit and was panting just as much as Piccolo was during their brief break during the fight. I think that lends credence that they were both using stamina.

So far, it looks like both the U6 Nameks and Gohan(base) and Piccolo are fairly evenly matched, with the U6 Nameks maybe having a slight edge.

While true, I think Piccolo was using more since he was disabled for several seconds and Gohan had to intervene. Overall, Piccolo comes off as lagging. But both Gohan and Piccolo have been burning through their stamina with all of Piccolo's regeneration and Gohan was winded in 108.

[JazzMazz]

Small correction there, Gohan has been hit and was panting just as much as Piccolo was during their brief break during the fight. I think that lends credence that they were both using stamina.

So far, it looks like both the U6 Nameks and Gohan(base) and Piccolo are fairly evenly matched, with the U6 Nameks maybe having a slight edge.

While true, I think Piccolo was using more since he was disabled for several seconds and Gohan had to intervene. Overall, Piccolo comes off as lagging. But both Gohan and Piccolo have been burning through their stamina with all of Piccolo's regeneration and Gohan was winded in 108.

Yeah, I don't think thats an unfair assumption. Piccolo was the one who was in far more trouble during that brief scuffle.

Also, I think its worth mentioning that the scuffle was actually really cool, there was loads going on in it and the teamwork actually felt tangible with characters from both sides saving each other in times of crisis.

[HeroR]

Small correction there, Gohan has been hit and was panting just as much as Piccolo was during their brief break during the fight. I think that lends credence that they were both using stamina.

So far, it looks like both the U6 Nameks and Gohan(base) and Piccolo are fairly evenly matched, with the U6 Nameks maybe having a slight edge.

While true, I think Piccolo was using more since he was disabled for several seconds and Gohan had to intervene. Overall, Piccolo comes off as lagging. But both Gohan and Piccolo have been burning through their stamina with all of Piccolo's regeneration and Gohan was winded in 108.

Yeah, I don't think thats an unfair assumption. Piccolo was the one who was in far more trouble during that brief scuffle.

Also, I think its worth mentioning that the scuffle was actually really cool, there was loads going on in it and the teamwork actually felt tangible with characters from both sides saving each other in times of crisis.

I do agree. The Namekians lived up to Toei's profile. Shame they weren't introduced sooner or else I may care for them a little more. Also, I seriously wish Gohan would go away from Piccolo since the two have been together 95% of the time. Gohan won't even go help his own father.

[Bullza]

I do agree. The Namekians lived up to Toei's profile. Shame they weren't introduced sooner or else I may care for them a little more. Also, I seriously wish Gohan would go away from Piccolo since the two have been together 95% of the time. Gohan won't even go help his own father.

He helped his father when he intervened and stopped the Namekians from attacking him didn't he?

[HeroR]

I do agree. The Namekians lived up to Toei's profile. Shame they weren't introduced sooner or else I may care for them a little more. Also, I seriously wish Gohan would go away from Piccolo since the two have been together 95% of the time. Gohan won't even go help his own father.

He helped his father when he intervened and stopped the Namekians from attacking him didn't he?

Knew someone was going to make that joke.

[AvatarReiko]

So it looks like we have a good indication of how powerful SSJ2 Cabba is. Frieza seems to imply that he has to transform to Golden to tank Cabba's attack. Bare in mind that this was Cabba who was already exhausted

[Saturnine]

What I found curious is that Freeza chose to go Golden just to defend from SSj2 Cabba's Galick Gun. Yet another inconsistency/intended change in power portrayal.

Originally, Freeza was supposed to be on around SSj God level in base, fighting God-absorbed Goku more or less evenly. Since SSj God was brought back, all we have is this to go by now - IMO this is indicative of an intended change in portrayal of base Freeza's power.

[Lord Frieza]

So after Monna's fight with Cabba, how do we rank all the female fighters in the ToP?

[Bullza]

What I found curious is that Freeza chose to go Golden just to defend from SSj2 Cabba's Galick Gun. Yet another inconsistency/intended change in power portrayal.

Originally, Freeza was supposed to be on around SSj God level in base, fighting God-absorbed Goku more or less evenly. Since SSj God was brought back, all we have is this to go by now - IMO this is indicative of an intended change in portrayal of base Freeza's power.

Final From Frieza was never implied to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in the Resurrection F saga.

Unless you were referring to the movie which has its own thing going on. The Base Goku that he fought was nowhere near that strong either going by what we know now.

[buutenks]

What I found curious is that Freeza chose to go Golden just to defend from SSj2 Cabba's Galick Gun. Yet another inconsistency/intended change in power portrayal.

Originally, Freeza was supposed to be on around SSj God level in base, fighting God-absorbed Goku more or less evenly. Since SSj God was brought back, all we have is this to go by now - IMO this is indicative of an intended change in portrayal of base Freeza's power.

Pretty sure FF Freeza is basically as strong as FF Frost, so a ssj is still stronger than him. So Freeza would definitely need Golden form to withstand a ssj2 attack.

Now how strong is said ssj in comparison to Buu saga? Judging from episode 90, id say base is around ssj3 from Buu saga and ssj2 is proly around ssj vegetto. So FF Freeza and Frost r as strong as Mr Buu or so.

Ofc, if u ignore the recruitment episodes and treat them like filler. Then base is basically a bit stronger than buu saga base saiyans, ssj1 is Fp perfect Cell level, ssj2 is above Majin Vegeta, close to Mr Buu and ssj3 is proly around ssj3 Gotenks/Mystic Gohan. That is how the manga also goes by.

The exhibition matches also match(lol) this. With ssj Gohan dominating one of the trios, and Mr Buu treating Basil like fodder till he ate a pill.

[BlueBasilisk]

Nope, even in the retelling Goku was superior. Freeze didn't even hit Goku in the retelling until he kept attacking his friends and he did no damaged to Goku. And why wouldn't Freeze be serious when he's trying to kill Goku's friends and even trying to poke Goku's eyes out? Gohan got stomped by Jimiz because Gohan couldn't counter his IT, while Freeza could. This isn't a matter of power.

In the retelling, Vegeta got pissed and attacked Goku because he and Frieza weren't taking the battle seriously, and right after that Goku says he thought he might be able to beat Frieza in base without transforming but it wouldn't be possible to do so. Then Frieza scoffs when he thinks Goku has just turned into a Super Saiyan. So while they did look evenly matched, apparently the intention was that they were not.

[HeroR]

In the retelling, Vegeta got pissed and attacked Goku because he and Frieza weren't taking the battle seriously, and right after that Goku says he thought he might be able to beat Frieza in base without transforming but it wouldn't be possible to do so. Then Frieza scoffs when he thinks Goku has just turned into a Super Saiyan. So while they did look evenly matched, apparently the intention was that they were not.

Vegeta was annoyed because Goku wasn't taking things seriously and Freeze wouldn't shut up about his revenge and his suffering in Hell. Again, Freeza attacked Goku's friends and cheap shotted him twice. He even tried to poke Goku in the eyes. Freeze wasn't holding back while Goku was still cheesing a little. Although he did admit that Freeza was tougher than he thought.

Pretty sure FF Freeza is basically as strong as FF Frost, so a ssj is still stronger than him. So Freeza would definitely need Golden form to withstand a ssj2 attack.

Now how strong is said ssj in comparison to Buu saga? Judging from episode 90, id say base is around ssj3 from Buu saga and ssj2 is proly around ssj vegetto. So FF Freeza and Frost r as strong as Mr Buu or so.

Ofc, if u ignore the recruitment episodes and treat them like filler. Then base is basically a bit stronger than buu saga base saiyans, ssj1 is Fp perfect Cell level, ssj2 is above Majin Vegeta, close to Mr Buu and ssj3 is proly around ssj3 Gotenks/Mystic Gohan. That is how the manga also goes by.

How are events that are important to the story 'filler'? Seriously, do you know what the word means?

Also "is basically a bit stronger than buu saga base saiyans", according to Beerus' base form Goku in Battle of Gods was still weaker than final form Freeze, so it wouldn't be near Perfect Cell. And why after all these years of training with Whis would Goku and Vegeta only be a little bit stronger than they were in the Buu Saga in the manga?

Finally, we know that in the anime base form Goku is above anyone in the Buu Saga. Goku base form was above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and we know Goku got at least x10 stronger form the Future Trunks Saga since he didn't used the Kaioken at all against Hit in their rematch and Goku has stated to have gotten stronger since then. There is also The whole thing in the Resurrection 'F' Saga were base form Goku was equal to above Piccolo who should be around Perfect Cell and Super Saiyan Gohan got shot up by first form Freeze and Piccolo died in one hit, but Goku in base form casually swiped his Death Beam.