Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

So, per Whis, base Goku was outdoing Caulifla at first not because he's way stronger, but because of his skill as a martial-artist. Have fun guys!

[Lord Beerus]

Quick note about the usage of the Potara in the Tournament Of Power:

Technically, it's not even against the rules to begin with. The Potara earrings aren't an healing item or a weapon. (The items that are strictly prohibited from being used in the Tournament Of Power). The Potara earring are actually more classified to being a cosmetic accessory fuel by magic. So by using the Potara earring, you're not really cheating. You're just exploiting a loophole.

[Bullza]

Why was Ultra Instinct Goku so powerful anyway?

It gives him the ability to move his body without thinking so I can understand him being faster I suppose but why would he be any physically stronger or durable? Far more than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 at that.

Did all that power come from absorbing the Spirit Bomb or whatever it was he did with that?

[BlueBasilisk]

Why was Ultra Instinct Goku so powerful anyway?

It gives him the ability to move his body without thinking so I can understand him being faster I suppose but why would he be any physically stronger or durable? Far more than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 at that.

Did all that power come from absorbing the Spirit Bomb or whatever it was he did with that?

I still feel like there was a new form coupled with Ultra Instinct to explain the power boost. Whis and Beerus never changed physically when they used it.

[Bullza]

I still feel like there was a new form coupled with Ultra Instinct to explain the power boost. Whis and Beerus never changed physically when they used it.

Oh yeah that's right. When Beerus somewhat did it in the manga recently all that happened was that he dodged attacks well.

From the explanation that was given of it it was only supposed to be about them moving without reacting so to increase their speed. I suppose speed does equal power to some extent but that wouldn't explain him being extra durable though that's only an assumption because he was never actually hit but you'd think his durability would match it too.

I'd have said the spirit bomb was the cause but seeing as he will get the form again soon and the Spirit Bomb won't be involved the next time then chances are that's probably not it.

But ideally from the explanation alone you wouldn't think that Ultra Instinct Goku would have a power level any higher than Base Goku.

[Shlugo]

Why was Ultra Instinct Goku so powerful anyway?

It gives him the ability to move his body without thinking so I can understand him being faster I suppose but why would he be any physically stronger or durable? Far more than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 at that.

Did all that power come from absorbing the Spirit Bomb or whatever it was he did with that?

Goku struggling with the Spirit Bomb energy broke a shell that restricted his power or something. Whis explained it.

[brett wheeler]

I still feel like there was a new form coupled with Ultra Instinct to explain the power boost. Whis and Beerus never changed physically when they used it.

Oh yeah that's right. When Beerus somewhat did it in the manga recently all that happened was that he dodged attacks well.

From the explanation that was given of it it was only supposed to be about them moving without reacting so to increase their speed. I suppose speed does equal power to some extent but that wouldn't explain him being extra durable though that's only an assumption because he was never actually hit but you'd think his durability would match it too.

I'd have said the spirit bomb was the cause but seeing as he will get the form again soon and the Spirit Bomb won't be involved the next time then chances are that's probably not it.

But ideally from the explanation alone you wouldn't think that Ultra Instinct Goku would have a power level any higher than Base Goku.

Its probably a mix of what whis said, goku was using ultra instinct sure but he also broke threw his body threshold of potential to increase his potential farther, you could say broke his limits to see a world even further beyond, that's most likely what the form is but the form gives him access to ultra instincts as well, and the only way goku can get the form back is to learn ultra instincts agian. At least that's my thoughts on it

[BWri]

The powerscaling in this episode

Well, at least is confirmed by Whis that Goku didn't mastered ultra instinct. He can use that ability more or less like the Gods, but in power and abilities is still below.

Funny enough, I thought the power scaling made a lot of sense in this one (finally). We got confirmation that Goku's base is pretty strong, but the reason he can fight in it effectively is due to his skill. This explains a lot of previous scenes in Super that just seemed "off" to me. Beyond that we saw that Goku's SSJ2 was much stronger than Caulifla's at the start of the fight, so we can probably assume that his forms were all stronger than Caulifla's, same can likely be said for Vegeta and Cabba. Goku and Vegeta just have more wells of power in these forms than the other Saiyans (Gohan included). That's why SSJ2 Goku can give trouble to Ultimate Gohan. My theory is that they (Goku and Vegeta) can leak their overall power into their lesser forms somewhat which is why their SSJ forms are usually shown to be superior to everyone elses. That or their mastery over the forms and fighting experience gives them the edge.

**edit forgot to add that Caulifla and Goku kept pushing past their limits during the fight and seemed to have landed in a similar power level territory which is always how I thought a Saiyan fight would work if two fought for a long time.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

[BWri]

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

Yup, see, this plugs up a lot of logic holes from before.

[DBZ Macky]

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

Pretty much sums up why the Base Saiyans perform better than they should sometimes, especially in Anime-only material. Sure, they might be dozens of times weaker than their Super Saiyan forms, but their "skill" remains the same. Unless "skill" is also multiplied by 50x when a Saiyan goes SS.

[TAF108]

I think you're taking 'original strength' too literally instead of seeing it as the saying, 'you're not at your peak anymore because you can't even go Ultimate'. For example, if Goku lost his god forms, but trained his other Super Saiyan forms to be stronger than he was with his god forms, Goku would still be below his 'original power' since he can't access his two strongest forms, therefore his true power.

I'd say you're doing the opposite. To me it seems far more internally consistent with Dragon Ball Super as a franchise for DBS Gohan to be inferior Ultimate Gohan self. The constant berating for himself for his lack of training leading to a decline in power, him berating himself for not being able to bring out his full power while fighting Freeza, literally every character that matters berating him for being weak, Piccolo most of all. I don't see any reason why statements about Gohan's "power" shouldn't be taken literally.

For me, it makes far more sense, for Son Gohan who has neglected his training and isn't even sure he can maintain the transformation he mastered as a child, to be far inferior to Ultimate self in power and in desperate need to catch up. I don't see how Gohan can not train and grow so "weak", he's still riding on his Ultimate self in power and is just a hop skip and jump away from it.

I can see where you're going, and understand that approach, but that's just not what I get from those lines, in context of everything.

Honestly I didn't think this topic would be nearly so dividing. I never even imagined the interpretation you've portrayed.

[TAF108]

I still feel like there was a new form coupled with Ultra Instinct to explain the power boost. Whis and Beerus never changed physically when they used it.

Oh yeah that's right. When Beerus somewhat did it in the manga recently all that happened was that he dodged attacks well.

From the explanation that was given of it it was only supposed to be about them moving without reacting so to increase their speed. I suppose speed does equal power to some extent but that wouldn't explain him being extra durable though that's only an assumption because he was never actually hit but you'd think his durability would match it too.

I'd have said the spirit bomb was the cause but seeing as he will get the form again soon and the Spirit Bomb won't be involved the next time then chances are that's probably not it.

But ideally from the explanation alone you wouldn't think that Ultra Instinct Goku would have a power level any higher than Base Goku.

According to Herms, DBHeroes calls the form "Ultra Instinct Omen". So my guess it that it IS a new form, and it just so happens that this form comes along with Ultra Instinct. So Ultra Instinct in and of itself, isn't a form (as shown by Other GoDs and presumably angels), but is an accessory ability/skill to Goku's latest (and hopefully last) transformation.

I'd say that idea makes the most sense, if you take into account that Whis mentions it's a level GoDs can't reach easily (as a reason why SSJ2 Goku wasn't using it) I'd say it's possible the skill is strength related. And Goku's new form is the only one he has close to that level, hence he gains the ability along side.

Just my guess though. DBH is just a video game. We'll have to see what Goku says during round two (Or one of the other characters.)

[dragon boss z]

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

Pretty much sums up why the Base Saiyans perform better than they should sometimes, especially in Anime-only material. Sure, they might be dozens of times weaker than their Super Saiyan forms, but their "skill" remains the same. Unless "skill" is also multiplied by 50x when a Saiyan goes SS.

I don't think ssj is as big as a boost anymore since training with Whis. They trained in their base, mastered it, and learned how to completely keep their ki from leaking. And it definitely didn't seem like Goku got 100x stronger after going ssj2 against Caulifla.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Uggghhh, this show. ... Sigh.

The first time Goku fought Berserker Kale it was implied she was stronger than SSBlue.

Now Caulifla and Kale are talking about seeking a power at the level of SS3. This implies neither of them were ever at that power level yet.

It must just have been: SS2 Caulifla < SS2 Goku < SSBlue Goku In That One Fight < SSBerserker Kale < SS3 Goku

[Ziegander]

Maybe lends more credence to the theory that SSB is just "any amount of power between SSJ2 on up to who the hell knows how strong but can even be a lot less than SSJ if Goku wants it to be?" At least, that's been how I rationalize it. Until this episode I can't recall the last time he used SSJ3. He just goes either from base directly into Blue or from SSJ2 to Blue, skipping over SSJ3 and God. I have no comprehension whatsoever what the purpose of the God form is at this point or why he used it in the tournament if he can just go Blue and limit his ki usage and therefore, one would think, the stamina cost of the form, BUT, hey, y'know, it's Super. None of this makes any sense.

[ZombieVito]

So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.

But he did land a hit. Copy Vegeta tanked it.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Maybe lends more credence to the theory that SSB is just "any amount of power between SSJ2 on up to who the hell knows how strong but can even be a lot less than SSJ if Goku wants it to be?" At least, that's been how I rationalize it. Until this episode I can't recall the last time he used SSJ3. He just goes either from base directly into Blue or from SSJ2 to Blue, skipping over SSJ3 and God. I have no comprehension whatsoever what the purpose of the God form is at this point or why he used it in the tournament if he can just go Blue and limit his ki usage and therefore, one would think, the stamina cost of the form, BUT, hey, y'know, it's Super. None of this makes any sense.

They screwed up big time with so many scaling fails. We need a DBSuper Kai where Goku just keeps SSGod in Battle of Gods. That's the only thing he absorbs.

He gets SSBlue with Whis and Vegeta gets SSGod with Whis. Then they use SSGod in all the instances where Base Goku could be out of wack.

[ChiefWamsutta]

"DBSuper's powerscaling is so bad that it isn’t even considered a problem anymore."

Just saw this comment and wanted to share a laugh.

[ZombieVito]

"DBSuper's powerscaling is so bad that it isn’t even considered a problem anymore."

Just saw this comment and wanted to share a laugh.

But there's nothing wrong with it..

Whis gave a very valid explanation why base Goku was out performing SS2 Caulifla and it was also not the first time this has happened.

Roshi did the same thing against Ganos this arc.