Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:17 pm

I think it's a double-edged sword, personally.

The good news is that fights now have the potential to be more interesting and dynamic than they ever have been in Z. The emphasis on skill and strategy was one of those aspects that made the original DB so compelling, and I would absolutely welcome a mechanic like that into Super provided the writers are actually thoughtful in their implementation of it. It also vindicates my own views on certain scenes -- for example, Trunks kicking Black into a wall and briefly clashing with him doesn't necessarily mean that the two were close in strength. I love the fact that this puts a whole new perspective on Super's battle mechanics with the added benefit of encouraging viewers to just enjoy the fights without thinking about power-scaling all the time.

The bad news is... well, maybe it isn't bad news at all depending on who you ask, but tier lists and scaling perspectives are certainly more subjective than they ever have been. Without a clear indication of whether power or skill is predominant in a particular fight (and many fights within this very tournament have had no such distinction) there's basically so much wiggle room that people are free to dictate whatever they want in regards to how strong the participants are. Perhaps that's something that Toei may have intended all along. I'd be okay with this, but it does render a good degree of strength debates pretty meaningless. Only obvious and confirmed statements within the series would remain indisputable, e.g. Jiren is obviously the strongest character in the entire battle royale by a significant amount.

Those are basically my thoughts in a nutshell, although at the moment I do like this aspect of Super more than I dislike it because it ultimately relinquishes the series of any stagnation and rigidness.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by amuroray » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:28 pm

There wasnt any logic to powerlevels in super 50 episodes ago and theres none now, infact its steadily gotton more and more stupid ahah.

Literally characters are only as strong as toei makes them in certain situations lol. Thats it.

Watch for kailifa to be stronger then hit. Just watch.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Cabba » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:40 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
buutenks wrote:Goku's base form is OP again, lol.
How are we reaching this conclusion?
Why are people acting al surprised like this was first occurrence in the ToP
First example we got was base Goku taking on all 3 wolf brothers at once in his base form
Second Base Vegeta beating Ribrienne
Now third Goku taking heavy blows from SS2 Cauli without being knocked out, and actually pushing her back at times

I think multipliers are scraped as they should have been long time ago, it doesn't make sense to use multipliers when the powers are so high beyond comprehension

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:03 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Even when the show lays it out straight, people REFUSE to take that explanation.

Champa voiced people's current "powerscaling is f**ked" thoughts straight up. If Super Saiyans are stronger than regular Saiyans, why the heck was Caulifla not doing as well against base Goku at first?

Then Whis chimes in and tells us that Goku's a very good martial artist that can analyze and read his opponent's moves and strengths and learn to react to them, even without the Ultra Instinct. It was only when Caulifla started doing the same and learning how to properly react to Goku's moves that she started to gain the upperhand, thus forcing Goku to also use SS2 so that he can keep up.
This is all mostly fine. I have just one problem, though. Between "Caulifla starts to improve" and "Goku was forced to transform" was a couple minutes of fighting. Fighting between base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla. They throw punches and kicks at each other, with both performing equally well. The two even clash fists, and the clash is equal. Now, I don't know about you, but I've always been lead to believe that clashes of this nature are showings of power, not skill. If they're clashing, that must mean they're at least somewhat close power-wise, yes? After all, if Caulifla was dwarfing Goku in terms of pure power, clashing fists with her should have resulted in him either being pushed back or, more realistically, having his hand broken.

Yet after taking one hit, he transforms into SSJ2 and the two begin sparring relatively equally. They both fire ki blasts that cancel each other out and Caulifla lands a hit on Goku. Their fight as SSJ2's, from a visual standpoint, basically mirrors their fight before Goku transformed. Goku keeps up with her just as well as an SSJ2 as had been in his base. Caulifla initially seemed surprised by his increased strength, but that was quickly lost. Goku's performance between being in his base and being SSJ2 just seemed too similar.

This isn't even taking into account the whole aspect of how Goku is supposed to be fatigued. Just last episode, he was too exhausted to deal with the Universe 3 robots, the same robots that base Caulifla easily sent flying. Yet mere seconds (in-universe) later, Goku can easily run circles around SSJ2 Caulifla.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:14 pm

Tombstone1988 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Even when the show lays it out straight, people REFUSE to take that explanation.

Champa voiced people's current "powerscaling is f**ked" thoughts straight up. If Super Saiyans are stronger than regular Saiyans, why the heck was Caulifla not doing as well against base Goku at first?

Then Whis chimes in and tells us that Goku's a very good martial artist that can analyze and read his opponent's moves and strengths and learn to react to them, even without the Ultra Instinct. It was only when Caulifla started doing the same and learning how to properly react to Goku's moves that she started to gain the upperhand, thus forcing Goku to also use SS2 so that he can keep up.
This is all mostly fine. I have just one problem, though. Between "Caulifla starts to improve" and "Goku was forced to transform" was a couple minutes of fighting. Fighting between base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla. They throw punches and kicks at each other, with both performing equally well. The two even clash fists, and the clash is equal. Now, I don't know about you, but I've always been lead to believe that clashes of this nature are showings of power, not skill. If they're clashing, that must mean they're at least somewhat close power-wise, yes? After all, if Caulifla was dwarfing Goku in terms of pure power, clashing fists with her should have resulted in him either being pushed back or, more realistically, having his hand broken.

Yet after taking one hit, he transforms into SSJ2 and the two begin sparring relatively equally. They both fire ki blasts that cancel each other out and Caulifla lands a hit on Goku. Their fight as SSJ2's, from a visual standpoint, basically mirrors their fight before Goku transformed. Goku keeps up with her just as well as an SSJ2 as had been in his base. Caulifla initially seemed surprised by his increased strength, but that was quickly lost. Goku's performance between being in his base and being SSJ2 just seemed too similar.

This isn't even taking into account the whole aspect of how Goku is supposed to be fatigued. Just last episode, he was too exhausted to deal with the Universe 3 robots, the same robots that base Caulifla easily sent flying. Yet mere seconds (in-universe) later, Goku can easily run circles around SSJ2 Caulifla.
I said this before, but people need to remember that Power =/= Performance

Goku was explicitly stated to be weaker than Caulifla when in base form. The fact that, in their regular brawl-style fights earlier in the tournament, they were relatively even in power in equivalent forms lends credence to this. The clashes were more than likely used to signify that they were able to match each others' movements, rather than anything power-based.

As well, Goku has been using any and all downtime since his fight with Jiren to recover stamina and build his strength back up. It just so happens that getting back into the groove of a fight can do just that, like exercise. Sometimes, people can feel really exhausted, but a quick workout can pump them back up. It's the same kind of principle here.

We also have to remember that Caulifla was getting the hang of Goku's movements and was starting to overwhelm him, so he needed to up his own power and speed so that he could keep up. We later see that he keeps improving against them, even managing to take on Caulifla AND Kale at the same time as he acclimatizes to their movements further.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:27 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I said this before, but people need to remember that Power =/= Performance

Goku was explicitly stated to be weaker than Caulifla when in base form. The fact that, in their regular brawl-style fights earlier in the tournament, they were relatively even in power in equivalent forms lends credence to this. The clashes were more than likely used to signify that they were able to match each others' movements, rather than anything power-based.
An interesting theory. I'm not sure I totally buy it, but you definitely present one of the better arguments I've heard.
As well, Goku has been using any and all downtime since his fight with Jiren to recover stamina and build his strength back up. It just so happens that getting back into the groove of a fight can do just that, like exercise. Sometimes, people can feel really exhausted, but a quick workout can pump them back up. It's the same kind of principle here.
This point, however, I don't agree with. The principle you're referring to is in actuality just adrenaline. Adrenaline is not a substitute for stamina. You don't gain stamina from fighting, you deplete it. It was that way in Z and it is that way in Super. The "that was then, this is now" idea doesn't apply to this instance. If Goku wants to get back his stamina, he should be trying to rest, not fighting. Simple as that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:41 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: It's headcanon NOW that power levels make someone entirely untouchable on their own. They CAN, but they must be exceptionally high. Notice that Jiren bothered to even block SSG Goku's hits, even though he only needed one finger and was barely using even a small fraction of his power.
There are still examples in Super, like the Tagoma/Piccolo example, and that example is the weirdest since Tagoma shouldn't of even been close to Piccolo's level but Piccolo couldn't even budge him.

And yes I know Super seems to be working different than Z, but it also seems like Goku going ssj2 didn't make him 100x stronger either. He mastered his base form similarly to how he mastered SSB in the manga.
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base Caulifla<base Goku<<<mastered base Goku<ssj2 Caulifla<ssj2 Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:44 pm

amuroray wrote:There wasnt any logic to powerlevels in super 50 episodes ago and theres none now, infact its steadily gotton more and more stupid ahah.

Literally characters are only as strong as toei makes them in certain situations lol. Thats it.

Watch for kailifa to be stronger then hit. Just watch.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:15 am

Obviously, Base Copy Vegeta tanking SS3 Gotenks's hits has nothing to do with skill. Base Vegeta just has waaay more raw power than SS3 Gotenks.

We don't see Base Goku tank Caulifla's attacks in this episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:18 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I said this before, but people need to remember that Power =/= Performance

Goku was explicitly stated to be weaker than Caulifla when in base form. The fact that, in their regular brawl-style fights earlier in the tournament, they were relatively even in power in equivalent forms lends credence to this. The clashes were more than likely used to signify that they were able to match each others' movements, rather than anything power-based.

As well, Goku has been using any and all downtime since his fight with Jiren to recover stamina and build his strength back up. It just so happens that getting back into the groove of a fight can do just that, like exercise. Sometimes, people can feel really exhausted, but a quick workout can pump them back up. It's the same kind of principle here.

We also have to remember that Caulifla was getting the hang of Goku's movements and was starting to overwhelm him, so he needed to up his own power and speed so that he could keep up. We later see that he keeps improving against them, even managing to take on Caulifla AND Kale at the same time as he acclimatizes to their movements further.
This might just be me, but maybe, just maybe there is a disconnections between the writers and artists of said episodes since none of the dialogue matched up with the visuals, for instance, you can't have Roshi say Caulifla is matching Goku's movements and literally the next scene show here grappling hand to hand back and forth trying to overpowered Goku. Everytime they brought up fighting skills the visually showed the exact opposite and nothing but pure power struggles with one characters trying to overwhelm the other with greater strength, not fighting tactics.

https://imgur.com/5MqJhlE
https://imgur.com/b6sB5kM

There was too much of Caulifla and Goku fighting evenly, and I mean literally evenly as in same speed, same force, same power struggled be it physically or ki-wise between the two characters. Caulifla should not be able to overwhelm someone who's literally matching every single one of her blows and speed step by step by simply fighting better. Caulifla is going all-out here, yet she's matching a tired and fatigued base Goku? Why would simply fighting better force Goku to up his power if her power remains the same? Makes no sense, now, later on its mentioned that fighting Goku is steadily causing Caulifla to improve more and more (Something Toriyama mentions Saiyans do in battle when ever he or the plot in general calls for it) so she's actually getting stronger than her initial max from earlier in the tournament.

The only problem is a tired base Goku was matching her in base form, transforms to SSJ2 and continues to fight exactly identical to what he was in base form with both of them fighting even clashing evenly the same as before so did Goku turning SSJ2 was for show similar to him turning SSJB against Kale earlier? Also, is Caulifla still steadily increasing in power or is she now rapidly increasing in power the more she fights and what happened to Goku's martial arts skill advantage? Did it decrease while Caulifla's increased? The episode just didn't make sense from a narrative stand up as even the explanations used were immediately back pedaled the following moment later and all of this is happening in less than a minute in-universe no less which makes it even more bizarre. I can understand what they were trying to go for, but like Roshi vs. Ganos the execution was just too poor to be convincing or take seriously.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:21 am

Bullza wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:So SSJ3 Gotenks had so little skill that he couldn't land a hit on Base (Copy) Vegeta?

I can dig it.
He landed many hits. Copy Vegeta just stood there and didn't move because they were so weak.
I should correct myself and say "land a hit (that did anything). Regardless, if Base Goku (no, NOT "Saiyan Beyond God") could outmatch SSJ2 Caulifla until she adapted, then Base Copy Vegeta owning SSJ3 Gotenks (who is both stupid and undisciplined) isn't all that far-fetched. Taking the hits so effortlessly may be but this is the same series where how Goku punched someone else's fist determined the fate of the universe.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:51 am

lord turbo wrote:The only problem is a tired base Goku was matching her in base form, transforms to SSJ2 and continues to fight exactly identical to what he was in base form with both of them fighting even clashing evenly the same as before so did Goku turning SSJ2 was for show similar to him turning SSJB against Kale earlier? Also, is Caulifla still steadily increasing in power or is she now rapidly increasing in power the more she fights and what happened to Goku's martial arts skill advantage? Did it decrease while Caulifla's increased? The episode just didn't make sense from a narrative stand up as even the explanations used were immediately back pedaled the following moment later and all of this is happening in less than a minute in-universe no less which makes it even more bizarre. I can understand what they were trying to go for, but like Roshi vs. Ganos the execution was just too poor to be convincing or take seriously.
This. All of the above were definite, actual problems with the plotting of this episode.

I had absolutely no issue that Base Goku, using his decades-honed martial arts skill could match up with Caulifla. It made Goku look like a total badass. But then, the episode parodied itself, backpedalling on its own definition of Caulifla to go from calling her an unskilled brute to prodigy with vast, untapped potential. Okay, whatever, I get that she starts to familiarize herself with Goku's style and works on counters to it, again, proving she's actually not just a brawler but an incredibly naturally-talented martial artist with insane (dare I say "Ultra) instincts able to match up and potentially even exceed the training and experience of a massively skilled, talented veteran. But, sure, she starts to be able to match Base Goku, so he decides, okay, my skills aren't enough to keep this up, she's a lot better than I thought, I need to make sure I'm at least as fast as her, so he pumps up to SSJ2.

This is where things start to get a little fuzzy and unclear.

Base Goku was giving SSJ2 Caulifla a solid run for her money. He certainly would have lost at the rate things were going, but in no way was he making it easy on her. But, since he can tell there's no way he'll win, instead of drawing out the fight and wasting all of his stamina continuing to try and outsmart her in base form, he matches her speed and power with his own SSJ2. Realistically, he should outclass her speed and power with his SSJ2, but let's just pretend their forms are equal because the show seems to. Okay, at this point, he should be overwhelming her easily. And maybe he could have. Maybe he's fucking holding back. It is Goku, after all. As a matter of fact, we know he is, because later he powers up even more, but let's get to that in a second. Here's where this episode starts to lose coherency. Is Caulifla improving her martial arts skill, adaptively learning from Goku enough to match him punch for punch? Is she improving her battle power in response to Goku's impressively, overwhelming SSJ2 power? Is she doing both? Later, as Caulifla continues to impress Goku further, he powers up even more, but Caulifla spontaneously powers up to match him. Have they both been holding back this whole time? Why? What is going on right now? What really makes no sense is, if Base Goku could hang with suppressed SSJ2 Caulifla until she started to learn his tells, why can't 100xfaster SSJ2 Goku steamroll suppressed SSJ2 Caulifla? She doesn't power up further until Goku takes his own SSJ2 up a notch. But no, she continues to keep pace with him like nothing's changed. Are we supposed to believe her own martial arts ability has increased so much in the last 20 seconds that even 100xfaster/stronger Goku is still having trouble tagging her and harming her?

Well... I mean, it's Dragon Ball, right? Obviously Goku was holding back. But this episode brings Goku up against GokuCaulifla! And GokuCaulifla is holding back against Goku while Goku holds back against GokuCaulifla!! Oh... uh... ughhh..... :sick:

And the show doesn't even stop there!! SSJ2 Goku does eventually hold SSJ2 Caulifla off, implying that, at least if their SSJ2 forms are for some reason equal in terms of speed and power, then his skill advantage still gives him the edge. Setting aside the fact that it would be borderline insane for Caulifla's SSJ2 to match Goku's, let's assume for some reason that's accurate. Goku's combat skill outranks her to the point that Caulifla calls in Kale's help! And Goku still stalemates them both at the same time until they try to overwhelm him with raw power. Finally, the episode gives us one clear example of power trumping skill. No amount of combat skill can protect Goku from Caulifla and Kale's combined ki blast attack, so he is forced to transform into SSJ3, despite not wanting to. Here we run into another problem. Goku doesn't have the stamina to maintain the power of the SSJ3 form, so he immediately powers out of it. Yet, next thing we see is, remember, this is immediately after already being overpowered, Kale ascends into her Berserk form, the implication being that she's becoming much more powerful than her Controlled SSJ form. And, what, next Berserk Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla attack a SSJ2 Goku they could already overwhelm without Berserk only seconds ago? How is this going to be explained? I'm sure Caulifla will conveniently either sit most of the fight out just because, or she'll be worried that Kale is out of control and stand back a lot to stay out of Kale's way. Regardless, the sheer number number of times in one episode where Goku either should have won or lost handily due to how things were playing out, but then neither happened, were mind boggling.

I stand by NamekianSaiyan when he said this entire episode could have been skipped without any impact on the overall tournament. Nothing happened this episode. No stakes were raised. No one was introduced or even eliminated. No new powers, transformations, or techniques were devised. I see no reason for this episode to exist, and I'm pretty sure, despite having seen maybe 1% of next week's footage, you could have cut 80% of 113 and played the remaining 20%, or less, with the next episode, and everything would have run smoothly from there.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PushoverMediaCritic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:46 am

Caulifla actually does power up almost immediately after Goku goes to Super Saiyan 2. Right after firing her first Crush Cannon and right before the commercial break, she states that she's going all-out, so presumably she was holding back to some extent against base Goku. The Zen-Ohs state that they're both getting faster while they're clashing after the commercial break. Finally, Goku outright says that she's stronger at this point than when she was fighting him earlier when he complements her on how she's mastered Super Saiyan 2 beyond what he imagined, which is something he only sees then, not back when he was fighting her in base.

They both do power up again at this point, but it shouldn't be overlooked that Caulifla powered up while the commercial break was happening.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:58 am

This was more of a training battle than a serious all-out match so I wouldn't be surprised if Goku was gradually making things more intense at a pace he thought she could match. He did say it takes him a bit to really get going.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:01 am

Personally, for all of the issues brought up, I bring up this idea of mine:

The differences in speed between differing power levels aren't as dramatic as one would expect. This is mostly a consequence of the idea of "blitzing" being a thing of the past, since we hardly see this ever actually happen nowadays.

Heck, we see that only a character that's specifically super fast, Dyspo, can "speed-blitz" like people say everyone else should've been able to do. It's possible that, thanks to combat skill and movement, fighters can fight at better speeds without actually speeding up as dramatically.

Once you get a better read on movements, you can handle someone's fighting style much easier. In terms of strength, the SS forms can still multiply, but perhaps speed isn't so linear.

I get it. There are inconsistencies, and this stuff doesn't exactly jive with people's expectations. But the writers likely expect us to take it at face value, so we should at least bear that in mind that that's the point being made when they explain/show these things to us.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:25 am

Considering how much Caulifla powered up as a Super Saiyan 2 when she fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku, then she probably wasn't using her full power when she fought Base Goku anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:15 am

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Caulifla actually does power up almost immediately after Goku goes to Super Saiyan 2. Right after firing her first Crush Cannon and right before the commercial break, she states that she's going all-out, so presumably she was holding back to some extent against base Goku. The Zen-Ohs state that they're both getting faster while they're clashing after the commercial break. Finally, Goku outright says that she's stronger at this point than when she was fighting him earlier when he complements her on how she's mastered Super Saiyan 2 beyond what he imagined, which is something he only sees then, not back when he was fighting her in base.

They both do power up again at this point, but it shouldn't be overlooked that Caulifla powered up while the commercial break was happening.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Caulifla state she's going all out, not that she will go all-out meaning she was going all-out before which matches the dialogue earlier (Kuririn - SSJ or not its Goku, Champa - I thought SSJs were suppose to be more powerful, Caulifla - Arghhh... why can't I hit him?) She doesn't visibly power up and in fact, its mentioned by Whis is that her fighting Goku causes her tremendous power to be drawn out which is confirmed by Caulifla stating she feels amazing power swelling up in her the more she fights so Caulifla is getting more and more powerful, but not in a "I've been holding back sense" but more in a "As a Saiyan my power level continues to grow higher and higher the more I fight a strong opponent closing the gap" way.

This is okay, but if anyone's going with any multipliers in mind this spits in the face of that, I say spit considering earlier when Caulifla unlocks SSJ2 when Goku tells her how she states "This is SSJ2? Its friggin incredible, atatatatatata!" No where in the dialogue by anyone is it implied or said Caulifla is holding back power lower than what she used earlier against SSJ2 Goku, but instead is actually using more power than that, yet earlier a fatigued base Goku was matching her speed and strength earlier to her confusion. Wouldn't the above suggest Goku should have never went SSJ3 and just powered up close to full power as a SSJ2 to handle Kale and Caulifla at the same time unless they are trying to tell us Caulifla and such dramatically improved her battle power by several tens of times in mere seconds. I ask because Caulifla keeps reminding the audience "I have to quickly beat you and learn SSJ3, no time to waste!" That kind of defeats the purpose if she's holding back doesn't it?
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Personally, for all of the issues brought up, I bring up this idea of mine:

The differences in speed between differing power levels aren't as dramatic as one would expect. This is mostly a consequence of the idea of "blitzing" being a thing of the past, since we hardly see this ever actually happen nowadays.

Heck, we see that only a character that's specifically super fast, Dyspo, can "speed-blitz" like people say everyone else should've been able to do. It's possible that, thanks to combat skill and movement, fighters can fight at better speeds without actually speeding up as dramatically.

Once you get a better read on movements, you can handle someone's fighting style much easier. In terms of strength, the SS forms can still multiply, but perhaps speed isn't so linear.

I get it. There are inconsistencies, and this stuff doesn't exactly jive with people's expectations. But the writers likely expect us to take it at face value, so we should at least bear that in mind that that's the point being made when they explain/show these things to us.
I think you bring up some solid points, its just that the episode itself didn't come anywhere close to accurately portraying it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PushoverMediaCritic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:34 pm

lord turbo wrote:
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Caulifla actually does power up almost immediately after Goku goes to Super Saiyan 2. Right after firing her first Crush Cannon and right before the commercial break, she states that she's going all-out, so presumably she was holding back to some extent against base Goku. The Zen-Ohs state that they're both getting faster while they're clashing after the commercial break. Finally, Goku outright says that she's stronger at this point than when she was fighting him earlier when he complements her on how she's mastered Super Saiyan 2 beyond what he imagined, which is something he only sees then, not back when he was fighting her in base.

They both do power up again at this point, but it shouldn't be overlooked that Caulifla powered up while the commercial break was happening.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Caulifla state she's going all out, not that she will go all-out meaning she was going all-out before which matches the dialogue earlier (Kuririn - SSJ or not its Goku, Champa - I thought SSJs were suppose to be more powerful, Caulifla - Arghhh... why can't I hit him?) She doesn't visibly power up and in fact, its mentioned by Whis is that her fighting Goku causes her tremendous power to be drawn out which is confirmed by Caulifla stating she feels amazing power swelling up in her the more she fights so Caulifla is getting more and more powerful, but not in a "I've been holding back sense" but more in a "As a Saiyan my power level continues to grow higher and higher the more I fight a strong opponent closing the gap" way.

This is okay, but if anyone's going with any multipliers in mind this spits in the face of that, I say spit considering earlier when Caulifla unlocks SSJ2 when Goku tells her how she states "This is SSJ2? Its friggin incredible, atatatatatata!" No where in the dialogue by anyone is it implied or said Caulifla is holding back power lower than what she used earlier against SSJ2 Goku, but instead is actually using more power than that, yet earlier a fatigued base Goku was matching her speed and strength earlier to her confusion. Wouldn't the above suggest Goku should have never went SSJ3 and just powered up close to full power as a SSJ2 to handle Kale and Caulifla at the same time unless they are trying to tell us Caulifla and such dramatically improved her battle power by several tens of times in mere seconds. I ask because Caulifla keeps reminding the audience "I have to quickly beat you and learn SSJ3, no time to waste!" That kind of defeats the purpose if she's holding back doesn't it?
Usually in these kinds of contexts, when a character says "I'm going all out!", it's an abbreviated version of "I'm going (to go) all out!", especially when it's presented as an exclamation and in response to an escalation of threat level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:31 am

So, I read the Chapter 29 of Dragon Ball Super manga and I wanted to leave here my impressions concerning strength matters.

It seems there is a huge gap between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God, so much that the level of the fight from SSG and on is close to God of Destruction’s, as admitted by one of them.

Initially, I thought Top was stronger than Goku, but this is a example of Goku letting his guard down in a vital moment. Even Top admitted he might have not win if not for that quick counter-attack.

Rumshi’s roar can paralyze even the Gods of Destruction and given that the Kaioshins fainted and Goku didn’t must mean Goku overall is much closer to God of Destruction level than to Kaioshin’s. The angels though didn’t even feel a thing, they must be really strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:39 am

Hugo Boss wrote:So, I read the Chapter 29 of Dragon Ball Super manga and I wanted to leave here my impressions concerning strength matters.

It seems there is a huge gap between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God, so much that the level of the fight from SSG and on is close to God of Destruction’s, as admitted by one of them.

Initially, I thought Top was stronger than Goku, but this is a example of Goku letting his guard down in a vital moment. Even Top admitted he might have not win if not for that quick counter-attack.

Rumshi’s roar can paralyze even the Gods of Destruction and given that the Kaioshins fainted and Goku didn’t must mean Goku overall is much closer to God of Destruction level than to Kaioshin’s. The angels though didn’t even feel a thing, they must be really strong.
In the manga Goku never absorbed god ki into his base so the SSG multiplier should be the same as it was in the BoG arc.

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