Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Loputousu
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:04 am

What are you guys even complaining about? We know SSB Goku massively holds back. He did against Krillin! Use common sense guys.

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Bullza
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:25 am

So ideally what should be the relation in power between Kefla and Merged Zamasu?

And I'm talking about the Merged Zamasu with the Halo because that was the fusions real power. The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu doesn't count because he apparently took power from the rift he opened.

Super Saiyan Kefla shouldn't be as strong as Merged Zamasu should she? Neither Kale or Caulifla should be anywhere near as strong as Super Saiyan Rose Black though they'd likely be a good amount stronger than Zamasu so you'd think the fusion would be overall weaker.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken dropped Merged Zamasu with a single kick so I'd find it odd if Goku uses a higher level of Kaioken and still loses.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:31 am

Bullza wrote:So ideally what should be the relation in power between Kefla and Merged Zamasu?

And I'm talking about the Merged Zamasu with the Halo because that was the fusions real power. The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu doesn't count because he apparently took power from the rift he opened.

Super Saiyan Kefla shouldn't be as strong as Merged Zamasu should she? Neither Kale or Caulifla should be anywhere near as strong as Super Saiyan Rose Black though they'd likely be a good amount stronger than Zamasu so you'd think the fusion would be overall weaker.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken dropped Merged Zamasu with a single kick so I'd find it odd if Goku uses a higher level of Kaioken and still loses.
Huh? The rift closed one Goku Black teleported to Zamasu.

Seeing as base Vegetto was confirmed to be stronger than SS3 Goku during the Boo arc, base Kefla should be stronger than current SS3 Goku, multiply that by 50 and she should be close to Rose Goku Black. Now she is using Legendary Super Saiyan in the NEP so she should be even stronger.

I can see regular Kaioken Blue Goku getting beaten easily.

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Bullza
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:37 am

ZombieVito wrote:Huh? The rift closed one Goku Black teleported to Zamasu.

Seeing as base Vegetto was confirmed to be stronger than SS3 Goku during the Boo arc, base Kefla should be stronger than current SS3 Goku, multiply that by 50 and she should be close to Rose Goku Black. Now she is using Legendary Super Saiyan in the NEP so she should be even stronger.

I can see regular Kaioken Blue Goku getting beaten easily.
Oh. Then what's this thing meant to be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoyAsv6iY4M

Whatever he's doing, he's clearly summoning power from something.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:44 am

Bullza wrote: Oh. Then what's this thing meant to be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoyAsv6iY4M

Whatever he's doing, he's clearly summoning power from something.
Well, he calls it Light of Justice so he obviously knows about it, Black didn't even know what the rift was.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The power up came from the damage he received on his arm.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:45 am

Loputousu wrote:What are you guys even complaining about? We know SSB Goku massively holds back. He did against Krillin! Use common sense guys.
Why do people keep using Krillin while ignoring the context. The episode outright told us that Goku was testing Krillin's resolved. Against Kale, why would Goku hold back to the point of letting someone walk through his blast? Why even go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he could have used Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God? The narrative for Goku holding back that massively against Kale makes no sense.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Faisal Shourov » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:52 am

HeroR wrote:
Why do people keep using Krillin while ignoring the context. The episode outright told us that Goku was testing Krillin's resolved. Against Kale, why would Goku hold back to the point of letting someone walk through his blast? When even go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he could have used Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God? The narrative for Goku holding back that massively against Kale makes no sense.
Dragon Ball Super doesn't have good writing, honestly if people want quality anime you can watch Hunter x Hunter (2011) or Steins;Gate. DBS will always be like this. You won't find any logic in DBS

In oen episode you have SSB with perfect ki control, then in next episode SSB drains too much stamina. Writers keep changing their mind about what SSB is or should be. Try not to watch DBS for coherent story, it's not objectively a well written show.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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AvatarReiko
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:14 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:Yes. This episode's powerscaling was COMPLETELY MESSED UP.
However, that's not the main problem of this episode. I can easily forget that.
What i do have a big problem with is the fact that they're trying to tell us that a BASE Potara Fused Saiyan is ABOVE a freaking Super Saiyan God!!!?
I honestly don't see a problem with this. Berserker Kale on her own pressured a SSJB Goku and managed to walk through his Kamehameha. Kefla is obviously way stronger than Kale on her own
zamasu121 wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:
zamasu121 wrote: Goku is tired and isn't fully powered up compared to merged Zamasu who smacked around ssb Vegeta and Goku.
He obviously isn't that tired if he can pull of SSJBKK in the next episode
Loputousu wrote:What are you guys even complaining about? We know SSB Goku massively holds back. He did against Krillin! Use common sense guys.
So Goku just let himself get ragdolled because it was?P
Faisal Shourov wrote: Dragon Ball Super doesn't have good writing, honestly if people want quality anime you can watch Hunter x Hunter (2011) or Steins;Gate. DBS will always be like this. You won't find any logic in DBS

In oen episode you have SSB with perfect ki control, then in next episode SSB drains too much stamina. Writers keep changing their mind about what SSB is or should be. Try not to watch DBS for coherent story, it's not objectively a well written show.
Meh. Hxh is grossly overrated and the author is sick every week

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AvatarReiko
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:16 am

AvatarReiko wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Yes. This episode's powerscaling was COMPLETELY MESSED UP.
However, that's not the main problem of this episode. I can easily forget that.
What i do have a big problem with is the fact that they're trying to tell us that a BASE Potara Fused Saiyan is ABOVE a freaking Super Saiyan God!!!?
I honestly don't see a problem with this. Berserker Kale on her own pressured a SSJB Goku and managed to walk through his Kamehameha. Kefla is obviously way stronger than Kale on her own

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Faisal Shourov » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:24 am

AvatarReiko wrote:
Meh. Hxh is grossly overrated and the author is sick every week
I respectfully disagree, but to each their own. However I do believe Steins Gate is a masterpiece. Personally the best I have ever watched.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:29 am

Crilin: "She's not berserk. She has that power completely under control".
Tenshinhan: "Not only that, but Kale's energy has massively increased."

Is this implying that Mastered Super Saiyan Berserk Kale is stronger than Super Saiyan Berserk Kale? Or that she is merely stronger than her standard Super Saiyan form? I checked Herms and he said her power increased even further, meaning:

SSB Goku ~ SS Kafla >> Base Kafla > SSG Goku (Weakened) > MSSBe Kale >> SSBe Kale > SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku >= SS Kale ~ SS2 Caulifla

Or am i wrong? Also i think that Berserk is indeed stronger than SS3 and whatever level of power Goku used in Blue in Ep 100 considering it made Vegeta, Toppo and Jiren flinch while Goku didn't.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:33 am

Super Saiyan God's multiplier shouldn't be as big as it was the first time. Remember that Goku absorbed its power? I would say that current SSG being a 500x boost could work, with Blue being above it either by 2x or 10x,
Current base Vegetto being stronger than SSG Goku could actually be a possibility.
Even then, SSG Goku wasn't in his top shape in this episode, so we should wait and see next episode to truly understand more what the multipliers are. Goku is using Blue + Kaioken next time, and Kafla is using the controlled Berserk form which should be around SSJ3 in terms of power. Unless the girls achieve SSJ3, which would confirm the Berserk form to be between SSJ2 and 3 - this could also fit with how Broly's movies depicted his power, considering Berserk is basically LSSJ.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:36 am

Green wrote:Crilin: "She's not berserk. She has that power completely under control".
Tenshinhan: "Not only that, but Kale's energy has massively increased."

Is this implying that Mastered Super Saiyan Berserk Kale is stronger than Super Saiyan Berserk Kale? Or that she is merely stronger than her standard Super Saiyan form? I checked Herms and he said her power increased even further, meaning:

SSB Goku ~ SS Kafla >> Base Kafla > SSG Goku (Weakened) > MSSBe Kale >> SSBe Kale > SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku >= SS Kale ~ SS2 Caulifla

Or am i wrong? Also i think that Berserk is indeed stronger than SS3 and whatever level of power Goku used in Blue in Ep 100 considering it made Vegeta, Toppo and Jiren flinch while Goku didn't.
I see it as basically this: SSB > SSG >> Base Fusion > SSG (Weakened in Ep. 114) > SSBerserker Controlled > SS3 > SSBerserker > SSGreen > SS2 > SS1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:54 am

It's worth noting that we only have Goku's word for it that Buu/BoG era Vegetto is weaker than Super Saiyan God. And he wasn't actually comparing the two because he didn't know how strong God was at the time. He was just comparing Vegetto to Beerus, which isn't saying much since thanks to constant shifting goalposts, Beerus is leagues ahead of both Vegetto and Super Saiyan God Goku.

In other words, God Goku isn't necessarily that much stronger than Vegetto, even in base. Like, Vegetto's power in Z was so incomparable to anyone else it left plenty of leeway for him to compare to other forms and characters from Super. So, if we assume Kefla is on par with pre-BoG Vegetto (and I'd be inclined to put her above given how strong Kale is compared to Vegeta or Goku) then it's not hard to see her giving God a run for it's money. We'll have to see exactly how she compares to Blue next episode, but given she outsped God in base, but appears to be fighting Blue in some kind of transformation, it should still check out.

At the end of the day, Super has sacrificed number bloat to bring everyone closer together. Blue Goku is no longer "hundreds of times" stronger than, say Ultimate Gohan, it's just one or two steps up the ladder. Which I like because the idea of characters being hundreds of times stronger than each other is ridiculous and should never have been taken seriously.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:06 am

So Herms confirmed that Kale's new form is stronger than her SSJBerserker "Not only does Kale have her power fully under control now, but its increased even further." Which means her SSJBerserker wasn't SSJB level at all.
Zamasu, Broly, Mira & Fu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SuperHumanGod » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:25 am

I think its pretty clear that DBS has awful scaling and/or just doesn't care any more. I'm switching to full on head canon to explain the absurdities.
Jiren best new DBS character. Its done.
Fuck those awful U6 saiyans and their tingles too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by STH » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:33 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:So Base Vegetto>Super Saiyan God Goku now....!?? Wtf!

Base Kefla was dominating Freakin Super Saiyan God Goku!

Base Vegetto>=Base Kefla

Even though it was previously stated that Super Saiyan God Goku is superior to Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto!
What the actual f***!???

This powerscaling is completely messed up!

BoG: SSJ God Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto

TOP: Base Kefla>Super Saiyan God Goku

Can you see the logic here??
This episode is completely trash.
Melkaniator wrote: "DBS anime is a fan service series that delivers irrelevant dialogue, inconsistent writing, and lazy designs.

The DB manga never had so many mistakes, nor those were this constant."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:03 am

Ok guys, here comes my headcannon of dbs:
1. Everything estabilished in show is rule until it's overwritten, then new stuff replaces old one.
2. In bog goku was only talking about ssj vegito (yes he wasnt taking ss2 or even ss3 in consideration).
3. In bog goku was comparing ss vegitto to estimated full power of beerus, not supressed one.
4.Ssg goku is above lss Kale or at the same tier at least.
5. Base Kafla may only took ssg goku by suprise attack.

This episode was alnost perfectly with me.I would only change base kafla for ss kafla(or better ss2) speedblitzing supressed/weakened ssg goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:58 am

Come on, guys. It was not only obvious, but also reasonable to assume that Kale's berserker form was nowhere near Goku's SSj blue maximum. Everyone was dismissing this as people looking for excuses, but Goku stated quite cleraly himself, that he was going to "put in more power" back when he went Blue against Kale. This is just further evidence that you can modify your SSj Blue powerlevel as you see fit, same as with FPSSj. The power chain is clear as of right now.

SSj God Goku > True Legendary Kale > Berserk Kale > SSj2 Goku

As for SSj God being supposed to be stronger than SSj Vegetto - yeah, that was supposed to be the case initially. But the huge, unbelievable leap in power was not very good for serialized writing, so they probably made it somewhat less than that. Still an entirely different category from SSj3, but not SSj3 Vegetto apparently. I agree, it's pretty stupid.

Well, it's either that, or Kefla is an even better fusion than Vegetto, due to Kale being legendary and shit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:29 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote: Oh. Then what's this thing meant to be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoyAsv6iY4M

Whatever he's doing, he's clearly summoning power from something.
Well, he calls it Light of Justice so he obviously knows about it, Black didn't even know what the rift was.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The power up came from the damage he received on his arm.
My theory was that the rift and the light of justice are tied to his power as a god of creation being altered/corrupted/enhanced by Black's mortal body. The pink mist Black controls is the raw matter/energy of universe bleeding out of the wound in space time he created and he is able manipulate it. In his fused state Zamasu's ability is inhanced allowing him to not only manipulate this energy from a raw source but begin to control and absorb it directly from reality itself. This is also how Zamasu became one with the universe, his soul latched onto the fabric of reality using this same power.

That my theory anyway.

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