Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Makes sense to me, final form Freeza is at SSG's level. What's wrong?

Nah that couldn't be right or Frieza wouldn't have had to turn Golden against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba and waste energy.

It is kinda anyway though because as someone pointed out Dyspo was just fine to challenge Hit and was even winning for a large part of it but then saw Final Form Frieza and ran off. I'd like to think it was because he was referring to his Golden Frieza form for consistency.

I think it has more to do with how sadistic and evil Freeza is. Which is a perfectly fair assumption.

After all Dyspo was freaking the f**k out when Maji Kayo caught him and was ready to cut his ears off.

[apex_pretador]

Cauli and kale merged in their SuperSaiyan 2 and controlled berserker forms. It makes sense to dominate SSG Goku.

Why did they turn out to be in base? Who knows, plot.

[Hugo Boss]

This episode had lots of powerlevel implications, like Super Saiyan Kale mastering her power and Super Saiyan God having the edge over the two female Saiyans. But I think it is a bit too soon to conclude Base Kafla is stronger than Super Saiyan God. Perhaps Goku is just at a start level. Even in Z, Base Vegetto deflected a huge ki sphere from Boo but transformed after.

[GodKaio-Ken]

This episode had lots of powerlevel implications, like Super Saiyan Kale mastering her power and Super Saiyan God having the edge over the two female Saiyans. But I think it is a bit too soon to conclude Base Kafla is stronger than Super Saiyan God. Perhaps Goku is just at a start level. Even in Z, Base Vegetto deflected a huge ki sphere from Boo but transformed after.

It's sort of like if you had a really young son and were playing catch. Suddenly he goes from a soft toss to a major league fastball. You'd be stunned.

Though I do think she's at or above God level merged in base...but not by tons.

[Marlowe89]

SSG's power likely hasn't increased THAT MUCH since its initial introduction, much like how SSB isn't likely to be many tens of times stronger than its initial introduction.

Well, that depends on whether SSG is a multiplier in the same way that the golden Super Saiyan forms are, and if I'm being completely honest, I don't see why it wouldn't be. It's true that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue can be argued to be different kinds of Super Saiyan, and perhaps their multipliers can even be modified somewhat with special training, but it's not at all impossible or even unlikely that they would have some kind of established power boost independent of the user's own power just like every other transformation and/or fusion.

My point though was just that the gap between 3 and God should still be fairly large regardless if we're to take the available evidence from both mediums into consideration. As you and I both seem to agree, "God level" is very much an established term in the series and is frequently made out to be a big deal by supporting characters. I really do think this was just a case of Goku not being in top condition compounded further by the fact that Potara provides a ridiculous boost in strength.

[lord turbo]

Trying to reconcile potara boost with SSJG in reference to Vegetto from Z seems like a headache. The guidebook mentions Vegetto to be at least above SSJ3, but perhaps that's in reference to SSJ Vegetto and not base Vegetto as Vegetto turns SSJ to combat Gohan Buu in the manga, even in the anime base Vegetto ended up being no higher than Gohan Buu in the end.

If Gohan Buu is at least 2x, maybe 2.5x SSJ3 Goku that would put base Vegetto atleast 1000x base Vegeta/Goku as far as the anime is concerned which seems crazy considering we now have confirmation in-universe that the potara boost makes the fused parts tens of times greater than the non-fused individuals so Vegetto's boost should be closer to 100x max and not hundreds to potentially a thousand any of the non-fused parts.

What's even more is that we do have the line of Goku saying fusion wouldn't work against Beerus, after attaining SSJG Goku mentions he didn't know such a realm of power existed so this confirms SSJG Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu Saga) and potentially BoGs SSJ3 Vegetto assuming BoGs Vegeta amd Goku aren't that much different from their Buu Saga selves.

If that's so SSJG should at bare minimum be over 400x times SSJ3 going by multipliers. Base Kale and and Caulifla are inferior to tired base Goku, even assuming they were both equal to base Goku amd combining their base together to make them 2x Goku's base and add a max of 100x that for base Kefla she should still be half SSJ3 Goku's power level which should be hundreds of times inferior to SSJG Goku.

Knowing this, base Kelfa shouldn't even be a blimp on SSJG Goku's radar as the jump from SSJ3 to SSJG should be far beyond tens of times boost.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Trying to reconcile potara boost with SSJG in reference to Vegetto from Z seems like a headache. The guidebook mentions Vegetto to be at least above SSJ3, but perhaps that's in reference to SSJ Vegetto and not base Vegetto as Vegetto turns SSJ to combat Gohan Buu in the manga, even in the anime base Vegetto ended up being no higher than Gohan Buu in the end.

If Gohan Buu is at least 2x, maybe 2.5x SSJ3 Goku that would put base Vegetto atleast 1000x base Vegeta/Goku as far as the anime is concerned which seems crazy considering we now have confirmation in-universe that the potara boost makes the fused parts tens of times greater than the non-fused individuals so Vegetto's boost should be closer to 100x max and not hundreds to potentially a thousand any of the non-fused parts.

What's even more is that we do have the line of Goku saying fusion wouldn't work against Beerus, after attaining SSJG Goku mentions he didn't know such a realm of power existed so this confirms SSJG Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu Saga) and potentially BoGs SSJ3 Vegetto assuming BoGs Vegeta amd Goku aren't that much different from their Buu Saga selves.

If that's so SSJG should at bare minimum be over 400x times SSJ3 going by multipliers. Base Kale and and Caulifla are inferior to tired base Goku, even assuming they were both equal to base Goku amd combining their base together to make them 2x Goku's base and add a max of 100x that for base Kefla she should still be half SSJ3 Goku's power level which should be hundreds of times inferior to SSJG Goku.

Knowing this, base Kelfa shouldn't even be a blimp on SSJG Goku's radar as the jump from SSJ3 to SSJG should be far beyond tens of times boost.

And that's the root of our power-scaling differences.

We all have different interpretations for these. For example, we agree that Goku's forms are ordered sequentially in power, but we disagree on what the differences are.

For me, the differences between the normal forms and the god forms aren't as dramatic as hundreds of times because I believe that Goku is so strong that even his normal forms would dwarf everything in the previous series. For others, this isn't the case and god level is a pedestal unreachable by mere multiplication.

When we use "should" or "has to", we start getting into some real debate because we have personal ideas of what exactly the interpretation needs to be to suit the series.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Okay, I said this a few pages ago and was ignored, so I'll elaborate a bit. Do y'all remember the Rival Boost? That thing that made Vegetto stronger than your average Potara fusion? Maybe there's something like a True Love Boost that is even stronger. Potara's not a set in stone multiplier, its strength varies based on the relationship of the fusees.

[AvatarReiko]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

[Hellspawn28]

Knowing this, base Kelfa shouldn't even be a blimp on SSJG Goku's radar as the jump from SSJ3 to SSJG should be far beyond tens of times boost.

Caulifla and Kale are pretty popular on their own. So a fusion of the two would probably be stronger than Buu saga SSj Vegito would make sense if you ask me. Cale as SSj Berserk had Goku go up to SSj Blue (even though he could have been holding back). U6 Saiyans at this rate are probably stronger than the ones in U7 and I think fans would accept that by now.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms?

You'll never get concrete answers or any semblance of a consensus.

You ask me, I'd say they're equal to the base Saiyans of Universe 7 (besides Goten and Trunks, the lazy bums) who themselves are as strong as Majin Buu. You ask others around here, they'd probably say only at the level of the base Saiyans of Universe 7 back in the original series.

And don't even get me started on the "SS multiplication VS. SS tier" frustrations I have.

[Green]

Considering how Super Saiyan/Mastered Super Saiyan Berserk Kafla (dunno which form) is seemingly wounded in the preview I wouldn't jump to conclusions, Toei is widely known to hype characters a lot with ridiculous feats and have them fight the protagonists just fine a few minutes later (ala Goku Black vs Vegeta, or Merged Zamasu vs Goku). Let's wait for the spoilers and the next ep, it's impossible to determine where Kafla stands in the power chain as of now.

Regarding U6 Saiyans I have them on Goku and Vegeta's level, whom we can safely say are stronger than the Kaioshin. Scaling them precisely is a pain that I'd rather not go through.

[Triggered Vegeta]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Way stronger than any of those characters if they can compete with Goku's lesser forms. Goku's base is >>> Gotenks bare minimum (Lowball) The girls can compete with SS2 tho tired so yeah. It'd make no sense for them to be Namek Frieza level in base, when Goku vastly surpasses that.

[ZombieVito]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Each one of them solo Z in their base form with (maybe) the excepting of SS Vegetto.

[Saturnine]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Way stronger than any of those characters if they can compete with Goku's lesser forms. Goku's base is >>> Gotenks bare minimum (Lowball) The girls can compete with SS2 tho tired so yeah. It'd make no sense for them to be Namek Frieza level in base, when Goku vastly surpasses that.

Since I belive the SSj God powered base forms were retconned, I'm forced to assume that Goku and Vegeta's base forms have only improved in a logical fashion from their training sessions. So if we go by Beerus' statement (honestly, I've stopped trusting statements from Super at this point) and have Goku at 100 million during his fight with Beerus, then I'd say that both he and Vegeta have progressed to anywhere from 500 to 1500 million as of the Tournament of Power. Cabba, Kale and Caulifla are in the same ballpark, obviously, which could probably at least partially explain their ease of obtaining new SSj transformations.

Goku's previous Saiyan beyond God power is equivalent to his current SSjG power, not taking into account his training gains. For all of you who think he puts regular SSj on top of a base that's as strong as SSj God - it doesn't work that way. If he tried to go SSj on top of that, his hair would be blue.

[lord turbo]

Knowing this, base Kelfa shouldn't even be a blimp on SSJG Goku's radar as the jump from SSJ3 to SSJG should be far beyond tens of times boost.

Caulifla and Kale are pretty popular on their own. So a fusion of the two would probably be stronger than Buu saga SSj Vegito would make sense if you ask me. Cale as SSj Berserk had Goku go up to SSj Blue (even though he could have been holding back). U6 Saiyans at this rate are probably stronger than the ones in U7 and I think fans would accept that by now.

To be fair, Goku did mention he would use "A little more power" which makes sense with him clowning a much stronger SS Kale as a tired SSG.

[Saturnine]

I made some calculations based on some assumptions popular among the community, and taking into account most of the knowledge we have thus far. My assumptions were:
- SEG multipliers
- SSj God 3x stronger than SSj3 Vegetto, to at least somewhat justify the statement about its entirely different realm of power
- Vegetto 500x stronger than Goku, just 25% stronger than SSj3 Goku. In the Buu arc this would not have been enough to handle Gohan Buu by any shot, though he did go SSj right away in the manga after all.
- Based on the above, I arrived at a multiplier of 600 000x base (or 1500x SSj3) for SSj God . SSj Blue is 5x that, inferring from Toyotaro's manga.
- I had Goku/Vegeta improve 10x since the start of Super to the start of the ToP. Zamasu arc Vegetto is only 9,5x Start of Super Vegetto, as that was earlier.
- No SSj God absorption into base - that level of power is reflected by SSj God itself

So here's what I got:



SSj God was initially meant to be such an entirely different realm of power that it absolutely murdered a SSj3 fusion. And yet now we have a base fusion of Kale and Caulifla completely murk it. Even though we got a statement that fusion multiplies the power by "tens of times", as opposed to Vegetto's assumed 500x. Which still couldn't hold a candle to SSj God. I have several possible conclusions to draw from it:

- Even though going by Vados' statement fusion was horribly nerfed compared to before - Super Saiyan God clearly was nerfed even more.
- Kafla's fusion was even more perfect than Vegetto's. More perfect by leaps and bounds actually. Taking this option would force us to disregard the "tens of times" comment by Vados, though.
- The SSj multiplier is actually much lower than 50x. Before the SEG came out in 2009, this was a popular fan assumption anyway, and the "decreasing multiplier theory" was quite popular. According to this, the stronger the base powers got, the lesser the multiplier that Super Saiyan afforded. If Kafla is only "tens of times" stronger than Caulifla and Kale, but that's already enough to beat SSj God, while according to the SEG SSj2 should already make you 100x stronger than base - that's definitely a hint that the initial SSj multiplier is no longer written as though it was 50x. Maybe it's 10x, maybe it's "several times".
- Even with the above, a 1500x multiplier of SSj god even over a SSj3 that's only like 40x stronger as your base or something - that'd still have no business in the world losing to a base Kafla.

All in all, math obviously doesn't work anymore. There is no way in hell you can make "tens of times" stronger than what separates Base Goku and SSj God Goku. The writers are not using math, so math will not do us any more good than it does them. It's either that, or they just change all that stuff on the fly and their multipliers are quite minuscule. The only configuration that seems could make this work is say, 5x - 10x - 20x - 60x for SSj, SSj2, SSj3 and SSjG here.

The power scaling is a complete, irreparable mess right now. Let's enjoy the show

[lord turbo]

- The SSj multiplier is actually much lower than 50x. Before the SEG came out in 2009, this was a popular fan assumption anyway, and the "decreasing multiplier theory" was quite popular. According to this, the stronger the base powers got, the lesser the multiplier that Super Saiyan afforded. If Kafla is only "tens of times" stronger than Caulifla and Kale, but that's already enough to beat SSj God, while according to the SEG SSj2 should already make you 100x stronger than base - that's definitely a hint that the initial SSj multiplier is no longer written as though it was 50x. Maybe it's 10x, maybe it's "several times".

That's doable using the stated numbers for Goku and Vegeta various training/weight feats. Base Goku can lift over 40 tons (The SEG books mentioned he only had difficulty with it because he was using bukujustu), in fact, we see Goku easily support a cube of Katchin metal stated to be denser than any other metal in the universe, that's makes it denser than osmium meaning Goku supported over 100 tons above his head with little effort. 50x that with SSJ would be 5,000 tons, yet SSJ Vegeta (post-RoF training) couldn't slightly budge Magetta who weighed around 1,000 tons, keep in mind Goku and Vegeta's base forms are shown dead even in all their training and depictions, Yet Vegeta's SSJ boost is less than 10x compared to Goku's 50X? That or Goku's SSJ boost equally diminished as well To make matters worst these characters can train to alter the boosts of their SSJ forms like Future Trunks did so that throws a monkey wrench into anyone trying to scale these characters off of each others when more than half the variables are unknown.

[Bullza]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Caulifla and Cabba would be considerably stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Kale seems pretty weak in comparison to the other Saiyans so who can say where she stands.

[AvatarReiko]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Each one of them solo Z in their base form with (maybe) the excepting of SS Vegetto.

Damn. Are they far off Vegito?