Zamasu55 wrote:What
A
Mess.
This episode is... I don't know, the worst in terms of power levels. Oh my freaking god.
How can 18 take down Ribrianne's new form when Goku needed to go BLUE to beat a weaker version...
Toyo needs to fix this crap, honestly.
So? A couple of episodes ago, Goku and Vegeta unnecessarily used Blue to take out 3 weakling mutts.
I really like how people are so quick to overreact whenever said episode contradicts their preconceived scaling while completely disregarding the episode's merits.
Miracles wrote:
The same energy from the bomb that overpowered Goku and awakened UI was the same amount of energy Kefla used, to TKO Goku and awaken UI again in Super Saiyan. Stated and shown SSJ Kefla=Spirit bomb > KKx20 Goku.
Goku awakens in UI, then powers up IN UI, Kefla responds by powering up herself to Super Saiyan 2. Piccolo states the other responded in power, Kefla is now above Goku's former level, THEN states that "BUT IF" UI Goku could draw out his power "FURTHER..."Piccolo said all this while UI and SSJ2 Kefla was powering up and he wanted UI Goku to draw more power in..UI not in KK Blue BUT IN UI.
All this is stated and shown truth in the story. Anything else is just insignificant opinions.
I think that you are right now that I have taken time to think about it. I just have trouble believing character statements due to it can be tricky telling if they are right or not. I have no problem with you man, and I don't like to attack other people using personal attacks. I'm glad we can agrue without that happening.
Me too...It's been civil... If I come off a little aggressive please let me know. I don't mean to. Trust me it's all friendly.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Piccolo's statement is not up for interpretation that he meant SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than KKx20 Goku. DUE TO THE FACT Beerus confirms UI was triggered due to Kefla's "massive" energy. Then Whis confirmed with "yes" her "energy" "rivaled" the bomb. Not the emotional effect to trigger UI which you are alluding to. Both SSJ kefla and the bomb are stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku. These are established facts and you have a logical contradiction to sort out.
The energy / Ki of Kefla rivals GK in the sense that she is was able to make Goku activate the UI, the capacity was the same. But Whis NEVER said that Kefla's energy competes with GK's in QUANTITY, this is something totally different and it's just the way you interpreted it.
This also does not prove that Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20 because Kefla forced Goku to activate the UI in a totally different context (compared to GK). Goku was already tired and lowered his guard, Kefla took advantage of this to defeat him and the fact of being out of power (because of Kefla's attack) caused Goku to activate the UI again.
The GK made Goku '' break the shell '' because of his explosion and the fact that Goku is also at the limit of his body
Whis speech simply does not match what was shown on EP 115. It would be inconsistent to think that way (as it was clear in this EP that Goku SSB KK >>> Kefla SSJ). So what we can do is give another context to the situation.
You state that Whis says Kefla's energy/ki rivals the power of the Genki dama. Then go on to say Whis never stated her power competes with the AMOUNT?!
Even tho Whis stated her energy rivals, which means it EQUALS in the AMOUNT/QUANTITY of power to the Genki Dama. That's a contradiction on your part.
You can't give Whis canon statement about Kefla's SSJ rivaling the power of the bomb another context when SSJ Kefla TKO's Goku OUT OF KK Blue with justONE KICK!!! The actions equal the statements.
No, this does not mean that Kefla's energy competes with GK's in quantity, but in the ability to make Goku activate the UI. These two energies forced Goku to '' break the shell '' again and Whis underscores that.
You're totally ignoring the context of the fight between Goku Blue KK and Kefla SSJ just to say she defeated Goku with a kick.
He was CLEAR with the low guard, and Beerus said that Goku would have to finalize the fight in the next attack because he was not even able to keep Blue KK (Kamehameha was the last attack, and Kefla's kick was enough for Goku was almost without energy, falling)
Kefla SSJ could not even FOLLOW the speed of the Blue KK tired, was shaking to get up with a punch and needed a distraction to defeat Goku, how will she be superior to the Blue KK x20? The context of the Whis speech you are saying simply does not fit, it is not coherent.
Zamasu55 wrote:What
A
Mess.
This episode is... I don't know, the worst in terms of power levels. Oh my freaking god.
How can 18 take down Ribrianne's new form when Goku needed to go BLUE to beat a weaker version...
Toyo needs to fix this crap, honestly.
So? A couple of episodes ago, Goku and Vegeta unnecessarily used Blue to take out 3 weakling mutts.
I really like how people are so quick to overreact whenever said episode contradicts their preconceived scaling while completely disregarding the episode's merits.
SSB have been spammed since day 1,i thought the fanbase would have known about this.
Last edited by The gr on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is another episode where the flow of the fight matters more than how characters compare to each other.
The focus and wording is always on how well everyone fights, what moves are put on display, etc.
The end sequence seems to mainly be about how 18's love for Krillin and Marron overpowered Ribrianne's Universe 2 version of love. So we now know what true love is
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Okay, yeah, 18 is way stronger than previously thought. Looks like the Androids are actually around the same power level, 17 might be a bit stronger.
I don't think 18 can trade hands with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the way 17 did, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been so shocked by 17's strength. With that said, people who think 18 is still weaker than 16 are just weird.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Zamasu55 wrote:What A Mess. This episode is... I don't know, the worst in terms of power levels. Oh my freaking god. How can 18 take down Ribrianne's new form when Goku needed to go BLUE to beat a weaker version... Toyo needs to fix this crap, honestly.
Fix what? Are you kidding? Super were always this power scale mess, it surprises me that people still takes as something new, the manga is no better either.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Jiren is the most boring man in the multi-verse, cept for his Manga variation which shows potential. Dyspo is meh. Toppo is kinda eh. They're far less annoying. The one time I thought they'd ditch the joke that got tiresome by their first episode, they immediately make her dull again. A love forsaken Ribrianne coulda been interesting to me...but she became dull with a slap. Oh and she dissed 18's husband with her shallowness....she HAD to go down for insulting the arguably best couple in the franchise, if not second to Bulma and Vegeta.
Yeah she get the title of the most annoying character in db.
Knew it ribrianne wasn't that special as toei trying to say.
It's still was one of the most fantastic episodes we've had IMO
A masterpiece of an episode. An episode full of gripping hate, love, and passion. An episode so freaking amazing it was just shy of becoming a legendary paragon of the Dragon Ball Super series. The way 18 shows off her true love is superior to their shallow form of love had me almost in tears. It was beautiful. Seeing brother and sister joining together and brother nursing and helping 18 along the way reminded me of a simple time with my own siblings and working side by side with them. It touched my heart. Not even Vegeta's generic shit of having nothing to add brought down this magnificent perfection of an episode. Not even Goku wanted to get in the way and let the cyborgs show us what love and familiarly bonds are all about. I couldn't be anymore moved. And when 18 gathered her love and inspiration from Krillin ala in a similar situation that Goku did in Battle of Gods once before, and overcame that giant obstacle, we were shown that it doesn't matter how Krillin looks. It's what is inside and how you feel for said person that is true love. The maidens were bested at their own game, and I could do nothing but applaud at this shining beacon of an episode. If it had just one more moment, it would have been the pinnacle of this franchise. But alas that is love. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes it just doesn't quite hit the mark like you think it will.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zamasu55 wrote:What A Mess. This episode is... I don't know, the worst in terms of power levels. Oh my freaking god. How can 18 take down Ribrianne's new form when Goku needed to go BLUE to beat a weaker version... Toyo needs to fix this crap, honestly.
Fix what? Are you kidding? Super were always this power scale mess, it surprises me that people still takes as something new, the manga is no better either.
The manga is not perfect but there is no way it isn't better than the mess that is the anime.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Okay, yeah, 18 is way stronger than previously thought. Looks like the Androids are actually around the same power level, 17 might be a bit stronger.
I don't think 18 can trade hands with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the way 17 did, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been so shocked by 17's strength. With that said, people who think 18 is still weaker than 16 are just weird.
Considering how 17 and 18 are constantly fighting as a team (against Kahseral and here) against the same opponents and they're both doing about as well as each other against them, it seems like they're supposed to be comparable to each other. Of course, I will immediately change my mind if 17 reveals that he's been holding back this whole time and he unleashes a massive amount of power comparable to Super Saiyan God.
dbzfan7 wrote:It's rare that I say fuck any kind of consistency or whatever argument, and just look at the gift that was given. But now is that time. My pants are so tight right now, and are just shy from bursting. Only one moment was missing to make me need a complete change of pants.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
dbzfan7 wrote:It's rare that I say fuck any kind of consistency or whatever argument, and just look at the gift that was given. But now is that time. My pants are so tight right now, and are just shy from bursting. Only one moment was missing to make me need a complete change of pants.
Which was?
Universe 2 being erased in the same episode. That was the last thing I wanted to see. Woulda made my pleasure legendary for one episode.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:
Considering how 17 and 18 are constantly fighting as a team (against Kahseral and here) against the same opponents and they're both doing about as well as each other against them, it seems like they're supposed to be comparable to each other. Of course, I will immediately change my mind if 17 reveals that he's been holding back this whole time and he unleashes a massive amount of power comparable to Super Saiyan God.
I think it's fairly easy to see that 17 have been messing around this entire time.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Zamasu55 wrote:What A Mess. This episode is... I don't know, the worst in terms of power levels. Oh my freaking god. How can 18 take down Ribrianne's new form when Goku needed to go BLUE to beat a weaker version... Toyo needs to fix this crap, honestly.
Fix what? Are you kidding? Super were always this power scale mess, it surprises me that people still takes as something new, the manga is no better either.
The manga is not perfect but there is no way it isn't better than the mess that is the anime.
Um...what? YES, it is. The anime is better in practically every way except for power scaling and the mama's power scaling isn't good either. IMO at least.
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Okay, yeah, 18 is way stronger than previously thought. Looks like the Androids are actually around the same power level, 17 might be a bit stronger.
I don't think 18 can trade hands with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the way 17 did, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been so shocked by 17's strength. With that said, people who think 18 is still weaker than 16 are just weird.
I do think she is stronger than we thought but not Blue level.
Majinwarman So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
Not much to scale here. Fodder is fodder, and Ribrianne's implied strongest form to date is below 18, who is below anyone noteworthy on U7. All fine with me. Goku didn't need SSB to defeat Ribrianne. In case people can't tell, Goku holds back however much he likes and uses whatever forms he likes at whatever percentage of their maximum outputs he likes. Don't overthink it.
I could see 18 prior to her flashback of her family closing in on Buu saga SSJ3-tier, while the powered up version that defeated Ribrianne should be stronger than anything the Buu saga had to offer.
I have 17 around low SSB-tier. By low SSB, I mean RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta.
Ribrianne wasn't leagues below the Base Saiyans, so Ribrianne > Buuhan at the least seems pretty reasonable.
It's funny when I see fans going on about how a particular character shouldn't be stronger than another, just because this so-called powerhouse was established as some unthinkable source of power in the past.
18 and 17 started off with power levels stronger than Namek Frieza and SSJ Goku. They have unlimited stamina and the rate of which they gain strength is as mysterious as anyone's guess. There's really nothing stopping 18 from being stronger than any form of Buu in my opinion, other than usual, played out, if 18 could surpass Buu, why didn't she do so in the past argument.
Seriously, I find nothing wrong with that power scale whatsoever. Namek Frieza, a being once considered unrivaled was turned into a joke by the time Trunks arrived. I don't see why it's so impossible for this to be the case for Buu.
