Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4495
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:33 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Jiren could just destroy the universe.
And that would do shit to Infinite Zamasu.

Unless Jiren can erase him, he can't win and gets killed.
How exactly would Zamasu kill him? Also, Jiren might know Hakai. It's only in the manga continuity that it's stated to be ineffective against immortals.
The anime implied it strongly.

No matter how strong Jiren is, it was never stated he had infinite stamina or that he knows Hakai. Good luck fighting for eternity without getting tired.

Zamasu would eventually kill him.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:35 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Merged Zamasu would get destroyed by UI Goku. He was better than a suppressed Jiren who was already above Zamasu.
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than that Ultra Instinct Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito should be on a whole other level from Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Merged Zamasu was able to hold his own against him quite well.

User avatar
Black Hawk
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:09 pm
Location: Beacon Academy

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:36 pm

In terms of battle power alone, I'd say that Jiren is definitely above Merged Zamas. In the manga, Gokū, when using SSJ Blue's full power, fought on-par with Merged Zamas, immortality and not needing to contain his aura any longer being the advantages that kept Merged Zamas ahead of Gokū. This effectively places Merged Zamas below Beerus, as Vegeta could not defeat Beerus even with SSJ Blue's full power.

Jiren's battle power is described by Top as exceeding even that of Belmod, who, thus far at least, can be assumed to be approximately equal to Beerus, more or less. This does not confirm that Belmod has a higher battle power than Merged Zamas, but the implication is there; at the very least, Beerus' statement that Vegeta could be the Destroyer Deity of another universe places Belmod at least in the same ballpark as Vegeta using SSJ Blue's full power, if not higher. From there, Jiren is above Belmod, so I'd say that, no matter which way it's sliced, in the manga at least, Jiren is above Merged Zamas in terms of battle power.

The issue, of course, is Merged Zamas' immortality and later his splitting into multiple copies of himself. On that topic, I am not informed enough to have an opinion.
"Reign supreme? In your dreams; you'll never make me bow.
Kick my ass? I'm world-class and Super Saiyan now."

I BURN - Jeff Williams feat. Casey Lee Williams, RWBY Volume 1 Soundtrack

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:44 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: And that would do shit to Infinite Zamasu.

Unless Jiren can erase him, he can't win and gets killed.
How exactly would Zamasu kill him? Also, Jiren might know Hakai. It's only in the manga continuity that it's stated to be ineffective against immortals.
The anime implied it strongly.

No matter how strong Jiren is, it was never stated he had infinite stamina or that he knows Hakai. Good luck fighting for eternity without getting tired.

Zamasu would eventually kill him.
Where was it implied? If anything it's the opposite with Whis stating that Beerus can erase anything in the Arale episode.

Also, there's no need for Jiren to fight for eternity. He can stop to rest whenever he wants, Zamasu's attacks probably can't even break him out of his meditation.

Furthermore, who says it'll even get to the point where Zamasu turns into Infinite Zamasu? Jiren probably doesn't have anything like the Genki Dama sword and would probably just toss Zamasu into a black hole.
Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Merged Zamasu would get destroyed by UI Goku. He was better than a suppressed Jiren who was already above Zamasu.
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than that Ultra Instinct Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito should be on a whole other level from Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Merged Zamasu was able to hold his own against him quite well.
Regular SSJ Kefla was comparable to Goku's Spirit Bomb which worried Belmond, she already surpassed Vegetto.

Also, UI Goku was stated to be above even the Spirit Bomb and to have closed the gap in power between himself and a suppressed Jiren and that was before he powered up.

User avatar
gofishus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:47 pm

Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Merged Zamasu would get destroyed by UI Goku. He was better than a suppressed Jiren who was already above Zamasu.
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than that Ultra Instinct Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito should be on a whole other level from Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Merged Zamasu was able to hold his own against him quite well.
Where's proof that SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than UI Goku? Doesn't seem to be the case in the anime...

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:50 pm

gofishus wrote:
Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Merged Zamasu would get destroyed by UI Goku. He was better than a suppressed Jiren who was already above Zamasu.
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than that Ultra Instinct Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito should be on a whole other level from Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Merged Zamasu was able to hold his own against him quite well.
Where's proof that SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than UI Goku? Doesn't seem to be the case in the anime...
His attacks initially weren't hurting her and it's heavily implied that if it weren't for his reactions he'd get destroyed. That was before he powered up, though. Though there's also the fact that even a single attack from her final barrage connecting would have killed him.

User avatar
gofishus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:57 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
gofishus wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than that Ultra Instinct Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito should be on a whole other level from Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Merged Zamasu was able to hold his own against him quite well.
Where's proof that SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than UI Goku? Doesn't seem to be the case in the anime...
His attacks initially weren't hurting her and it's heavily implied that if it weren't for his reactions he'd get destroyed. That was before he powered up, though. Though there's also the fact that even a single attack from her final barrage connecting would have killed him.
The whole point of why UI is so powerful is that the user reacts like that. UI isnt just a power boost - its a technique. So maybe yes SSJ2 Kefla might be more powerful in terms of pure power but she can't beat UI Goku in any way. Its just like Ultra SSJ Trunks was more powerful than Perfect Cell but he can't beat Perfect Cell due to the decrease in speed. If you can't hit them it doesn't matter.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Regular SSJ Kefla was comparable to Goku's Spirit Bomb which worried Belmond, she already surpassed Vegetto.

Also, UI Goku was stated to be above even the Spirit Bomb and to have closed the gap in power between himself and a suppressed Jiren and that was before he powered up.
That could be true for Vegito as well though. He may be above Beerus in the manga.

They never said that Goku or Kefla were meant to be quite that strong. They only said that Jiren was the rumoured mortal to be stronger than a God. That could be in reference to his full power which he hasn't used yet. Goku was a match for him suppressed.
gofishus wrote:Where's proof that SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than UI Goku? Doesn't seem to be the case in the anime...
Kefla was supposed to be stronger that Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 according to Piccolo. The Goku that Kefla fought was even better.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7608
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:01 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Regular SSJ Kefla was comparable to Goku's Spirit Bomb which worried Belmod, she already surpassed Vegetto.
Sorry, but I don't think it makes any sense that SSJB Goku's Genki Dama with the collected energy collected of a few people has surpassed Vegetto Blue.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:07 pm

Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Regular SSJ Kefla was comparable to Goku's Spirit Bomb which worried Belmond, she already surpassed Vegetto.

Also, UI Goku was stated to be above even the Spirit Bomb and to have closed the gap in power between himself and a suppressed Jiren and that was before he powered up.
That could be true for Vegito as well though. He may be above Beerus in the manga.

They never said that Goku or Kefla were meant to be quite that strong. They only said that Jiren was the rumoured mortal to be stronger than a God. That could be in reference to his full power which he hasn't used yet. Goku was a match for him suppressed.
But Kefla wasn't even going all out when she beat Goku, and she still had SSJ2 on top of that. In other words her peak was over twice as high as the Spirit Bomb.

Also, Belmond knows that Jiren is stronger than him but he still states that the Spirit Bomb had him worried. This means that even while suppressed Jiren can outperform Belmond who is supposed to be above Beerus in the anime.
Noah wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Regular SSJ Kefla was comparable to Goku's Spirit Bomb which worried Belmod, she already surpassed Vegetto.
Sorry, but I don't think it makes any sense that SSJB Goku's Genki Dama with the collected energy collected of a few people has surpassed Vegetto Blue.
Regardless of whether or not it makes sense, that's what happened. The Genki Dama was supposed to be GoD level, it worries Belmond, amazes some other Gods, and confirms for Whis that Jiren is the mortal the rumor speaks of.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7608
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:13 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Regardless of whether or not it makes sense, that's what happened. The Genki Dama was supposed to be GoD level, it worries Belmod, amazes some other Gods, and confirms for Whis that Jiren is the mortal the rumor speaks of.
That's just an assumption as he's worried about Jiren not himself, even if you say he's weaker than Jiren is not like Belmod is stronger than Beerus e.g who didn't show any amazement about Jiren performance
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:15 pm

Noah wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Regardless of whether or not it makes sense, that's what happened. The Genki Dama was supposed to be GoD level, it worries Belmod, amazes some other Gods, and confirms for Whis that Jiren is the mortal the rumor speaks of.
That's just an assumption as he's worried about Jiren not himself, even if you say he's weaker than Jiren is not like Belmod is stronger than Beerus e.g who didn't show any amazement about Jiren performance
Beerus was amazed the moment Jiren released his ki.

Also, Whis states that Jiren's GoD is above Beerus, and that GoD is Belmond.

And he knows Jiren's stronger than him, so if he's worried about Jiren he'd have a real hard time with the Spirit Bomb.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7608
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:20 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Beerus was amazed the moment Jiren released his ki. Also, Whis states that Jiren's GoD is above Beerus, and that GoD is Belmod and he knows Jiren's stronger than him, so if he's worried about Jiren he'd have a real hard time with the Spirit Bomb.
Nope, Beerus was only amazed the moment he saw Goku attaining the Ultra Instinct, a technique that not even he was capable to master. Also Whis never mentioned that Belmod was stronger than Beerus, he in fact was refering to Quitela in that arm wrestling match sentence, don't know why people tends to confuse this.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:22 pm

Noah wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Beerus was amazed the moment Jiren released his ki. Also, Whis states that Jiren's GoD is above Beerus, and that GoD is Belmod and he knows Jiren's stronger than him, so if he's worried about Jiren he'd have a real hard time with the Spirit Bomb.
Nope, Beerus was only amazed the moment he saw Goku attaining the Ultra Instinct, a technique that not even he was capable to master. Also Whis never mentioned that Belmod was stronger than Beerus, he in fact was refering to Quitela in that arm wrestling match sentence, don't know why people tends to confuse this.
Beerus looks shocked and says, "Is this really the energy from just one warrior?" when he feels a heavily suppressed Jiren's ki.

Also, that's the manga continuity. In the anime it's Belmond since Quitela's U4 is full of jobbers and there's no one above a GoD there.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7608
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:27 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Beerus looks shocked and says, "Is this really the energy from just one warrior?" when he feels a heavily suppressed Jiren's ki. Also, that's the manga continuity. In the anime it's Belmond since Quitela's U4 is full of jobbers and there's no one above a GoD there.
No, he looks impressed but not amazed at all as the same way Beerus was show to compliment characters strenght even know he is way above them. Also I'm mainly talking about the anime continuity since it's the main product. You're saying Quitela is not the Hakaishin Whis mentioned that won arm wrestling match against Beerus based on the level of his warriors is jut another mere assumption.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:32 pm

Noah wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Beerus looks shocked and says, "Is this really the energy from just one warrior?" when he feels a heavily suppressed Jiren's ki. Also, that's the manga continuity. In the anime it's Belmond since Quitela's U4 is full of jobbers and there's no one above a GoD there.
No, he looks impressed but not amazed at all as the same way Beerus was show to compliment characters strenght even know he is way above them. Also I'm mainly talking about the anime continuity since it's the main product. You're saying Quitela is not the Hakaishin Whis mentioned that won arm wrestling match against Beerus based on the level of his warriors is jut another mere assumption.
I don't know what show you watched, but you think Beerus is merely impressed here?
Image

Also, show me where it's stated in the anime that Quitela is the one Beerus lost to.

And the rumor is that there's a mortal that even a GoD can't beat, and that GoD is above Beerus. Then Whis confirms that Jiren is this mortal.

Therefore Jiren > GoD > Beerus.

buutenks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1884
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:42 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:47 pm

Beerus was crapping his pants the moment Jiren flexed his ki. Tho about the Genki Damage, idk if it could have the power of Vegetto Blue, especially since Vegeta didn't give his energy.

Unless shown otherwise I don't see how Kefla in any form can surpass Vegetto Blue, especially since it is hinted in the anime and said in the manga that Vegetto Blue is above Beerus. Manga Zamasu is much weaker, but anime Zamasu got a power up with his corrupted form.

The way I see it is Vegetto Blue(FT arc)= Jiren, Anime Zamasu, weaker, but not by much.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:49 pm

buutenks wrote:Beerus was crapping his pants the moment Jiren flexed his ki. Tho about the Genki Damage, idk if it could have the power of Vegetto Blue, especially since Vegeta didn't give his energy.

Unless shown otherwise I don't see how Kefla in any form can surpass Vegetto Blue, especially since it is hinted in the anime and said in the manga that Vegetto Blue is above Beerus. Manga Zamasu is much weaker, but anime Zamasu got a power up with his corrupted form.

The way I see it is Vegetto Blue= Jiren, Anime Zamasu, weaker, but not by much.
A heavily suppressed Jiren was already confirmed to be above Zamasu and at the GoD level by Shin and Whis.

And Belmond said the Spirit Bomb worried him, whereas Beerus wasn't concerned about Zamasu at all who was a rival to Vegetto.

buutenks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1884
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:42 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:54 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
buutenks wrote:Beerus was crapping his pants the moment Jiren flexed his ki. Tho about the Genki Damage, idk if it could have the power of Vegetto Blue, especially since Vegeta didn't give his energy.

Unless shown otherwise I don't see how Kefla in any form can surpass Vegetto Blue, especially since it is hinted in the anime and said in the manga that Vegetto Blue is above Beerus. Manga Zamasu is much weaker, but anime Zamasu got a power up with his corrupted form.

The way I see it is Vegetto Blue= Jiren, Anime Zamasu, weaker, but not by much.
A heavily suppressed Jiren was already confirmed to be above Zamasu and at the GoD level by Shin and Whis.

And Belmond said the Spirit Bomb worried him, whereas Beerus wasn't concerned about Zamasu at all who was a rival to Vegetto.
I don't see how 2 people weaker than ssj blue Goku n Vegeta fusing would create someone more powerful than Vegetto Blue.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:58 pm

buutenks wrote: I don't see how 2 people weaker than ssj blue Goku n Vegeta fusing would create someone more powerful than Vegetto Blue.
She was destroying SSGod Goku in base and he's supposed to be above SSJ3 Vegetto so things making sense went out the window a long time ago.

Post Reply