Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Jigurashi
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jigurashi » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:21 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:Where would I put Vegeta? It's hard. For most of the episode SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta as SSB Goku actually made Jiren react and fight him, Vegeta could not. Vegeta does well at one point against Jiren due to a) reading his movements. Which he only managed to do because Goku saved him from being blasted. And b) Vegeta said Jiren was using more power against Goku. Meaning Jiren was more suppressed against Vegeta than Goku.

Afterwards, Vegeta gets bodied by Jiren for the rest of the fight and he gets sent back to base form by the same blast that Jiren used on Goku in 109. Difference is Goku wasn't knocked back into Base, which would make Goku's durability > Vegeta as well. Then Vegeta gets a power up and the only thing we see him do with it is the Final Flash, which gets tanked by Jiren so we have no real way of pinning down how strong current Vegeta is. Made worse by the fact that he's getting a new form this Saturday so we likely won't ever get an accurate reading of how strong he is currently.

Vegeta's new power up I'm expecting to put him on par with SSBKK Goku (whatever multiplier Goku is using).

In fact, Goku with Blue would have been knocked over by Jiren. He only managed to save himself when he used the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena. Not to mention that the attack did not explode in him.
Just at the beginning Vegeta's attacks had no effect on Jiren, and it was because of his Ki barrier (later, it was broken by Vegeta himself). Even before this barrier was broken, Jiren needed to react to all Vegeta attacks, just as he did with Goku's attacks

Vegeta managed to stop Jiren's attack before reaching the edge of the arena and resisted his outburst. Soon after, he becomes SSB again and gets even stronger (judging by the surprise of Goku and the Gods, at that moment Vegeta had at least surpassed SSB Goku)
Is definitely put current SSB Vegeta above SSB Goku. We just don't really know where he stands beyond that. FF amps a person's fighting power, so we have no real way of narrowing it down.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:34 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
In fact, Goku with Blue would have been knocked over by Jiren. He only managed to save himself when he used the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena. Not to mention that the attack did not explode in him.
Just at the beginning Vegeta's attacks had no effect on Jiren, and it was because of his Ki barrier (later, it was broken by Vegeta himself, and surprised not only Jiren, but Goku and everyone who was watching ). Even before this barrier was broken, Jiren needed to react to all Vegeta attacks, just as he did with Goku's attacks

Vegeta managed to stop Jiren's attack before reaching the edge of the arena and resisted his outburst. Soon after, he becomes SSB again and gets even stronger (judging by the surprise of Goku and the Gods, at that moment Vegeta had at least surpassed SSB Goku)
That only happened because Vegeta saw how Jiren fought by watching Goku. It's basically the same principle that allowed Goku to hit and even cut Hit in his base form in the Champa Saga.

Also, who said Goku needed the Kaioken to save himself when he probably just used so he could attack Jiren. Vegeta was knocked down to his base form and battle damaged after Jiren's energy attack, while Goku had no damaged on him.

Vegeta didn't become stronger so much as he put all his power into one attack like Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon. The Final Flash is the same move that blew a chuck out of Cell when Vegeta before couldn't do shit against him.
Last edited by HeroR on Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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TheUltimateNinja
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:39 am

I see people are making some pretty good jokes about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but it's getting a bit repetitive at this point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:40 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I see people are making some pretty good jokes about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but it's getting a bit repetitive at this point.
Vegeta probably did 'surpassed' Goku with his Final Flash in the same way Rage Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:49 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I see people are making some pretty good jokes about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but it's getting a bit repetitive at this point.
Nah, even vegeta remarked that jiren was using less power than when he first fought goku. Vegetas final flash is debatable tho,but definitely nowhere near UI goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:53 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I see people are making some pretty good jokes about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but it's getting a bit repetitive at this point.
Nah, even vegeta remarked that jiren was using less power than when he first fought goku. Vegetas final flash is debatable tho,but definitely nowhere near UI goku.
That's what I'm pointing out. In the next episode Vegeta seems to obtain a new form that puts him on KK Goku's level, so he's obviously nowhere near that currently.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:05 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I see people are making some pretty good jokes about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but it's getting a bit repetitive at this point.
Nah, even vegeta remarked that jiren was using less power than when he first fought goku. Vegetas final flash is debatable tho,but definitely nowhere near UI goku.
In fairness, the statement is vague. Does means he used less power against Goku currently or did he mean in comparison to 109 and 110.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:19 am

So who do you guys think is stronger. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta after his Pride Boost or Aniraza?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:40 am

Bullza wrote:So who do you guys think is stronger. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta after his Pride Boost or Aniraza?
Definitely ssb vegeta. I doubt aniraza would make jiren trip on a rock and fall, vegeta managed to do that much. Jokes aside, i think vegeta is definitely superior after the pride boost or whatever thats called.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:37 am

Honestly, I don't know.

Anilaza's large size coupled with that power may make him a harder opponent to fight than someone with a larger power level but a smaller size.

The technically stronger fighter's size means that any solid blows that are landed without them specifically trying to take the blows would likely do much better than if the same were done on a fighter the size of Anilaza.

Basically, when Jiren bothers to take the blows, he's much stronger than Anilaza. Same when he's dishing them out. But when he gets caught by a solid blow from someone close to his size without intending it, he'll get knocked back. I don't see the same happening with Anilaza. Sure, he won't be dishing the same damage and likely wouldn't be able to tank as well due to his actual Ki reserves, but he probably wouldn't get knocked around as easily simply due to his physical stature.

A fighter's body factors much more heavily now than ever before, save for perhaps the original series before Raditz showed up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:52 am

Bullza wrote:So who do you guys think is stronger. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta after his Pride Boost or Aniraza?
Considering Goku and Vegeta weren’t using their Blue forms until Anilasa decided to get serious, I think Vegeta takes this with his super charged Final Flash.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:53 am

HeroR wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
In fact, Goku with Blue would have been knocked over by Jiren. He only managed to save himself when he used the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena. Not to mention that the attack did not explode in him.
Just at the beginning Vegeta's attacks had no effect on Jiren, and it was because of his Ki barrier (later, it was broken by Vegeta himself, and surprised not only Jiren, but Goku and everyone who was watching ). Even before this barrier was broken, Jiren needed to react to all Vegeta attacks, just as he did with Goku's attacks

Vegeta managed to stop Jiren's attack before reaching the edge of the arena and resisted his outburst. Soon after, he becomes SSB again and gets even stronger (judging by the surprise of Goku and the Gods, at that moment Vegeta had at least surpassed SSB Goku)
That only happened because Vegeta saw how Jiren fought by watching Goku. It's basically the same principle that allowed Goku to hit and even cut Hit in his base form in the Champa Saga.

Also, who said Goku needed the Kaioken to save himself when he probably just used so he could attack Jiren. Vegeta was knocked down to his base form and battle damaged after Jiren's energy attack, while Goku had no damaged on him.

Vegeta didn't become stronger so much as he put all his power into one attack like Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon. The Final Flash is the same move that blew a chuck out of Cell when Vegeta before couldn't do shit against him.
Goku also watched Vegeta facing Jiren, but at no point was he able to see his attacks. In fact, Vegeta managed to see them much more quickly and easily than Goku and Hitto.

And yes, Goku had to use the Kaioken to save himself. See the image below, it is hit by the sphere of Ki in the Blue form and shortly after we see him holding on the edge of the arena with the Kaioken.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Now, look at this other image. After being hit by Jiren's Ki sphere, Vegeta tries to stop the attack with his hands, and before reaching the edge of the arena, he succeeds (making the attack explode). He returns to his base form precisely because he resisted the blast (something that did not happen to Goku)

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

And as I said, this was the same attack that eliminated Hitto and knocked out Kale (as well as forcing Goku to use the Kaioken)

And yes, Vegeta got stronger, it was not just the Final Flash. Piccolo himself said that his pride had awakened a dormant power within him.
Vermoud asks how he was getting stronger and Goku can not believe that Vegeta's Ki was so big
Zen'oh also speaks clearly that Vegeta was getting more powerful
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I see people are making some pretty good jokes about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but it's getting a bit repetitive at this point.
Nah, even vegeta remarked that jiren was using less power than when he first fought goku. Vegetas final flash is debatable tho,but definitely nowhere near UI goku.
Vegeta now obviously is not at the level of Goku UI, but it is plausible that he is above Goku SSB. Especially for what he demonstrated by stopping Jiren's Ki sphere and by getting even more powerful at the end of the fight

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:52 am

Well honestly I'm still a bit in between this all. I could argue that Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. I mean, Vegeta, just before they all were off to the Tournament of Power, went into the Room of Spirit and Time to train and get a bit stronger while he still had the chance. And considering how Vegeta has this anger amp, there wouldn't be any reason to not argue that Vegeta in his Super Saiyan Blue form is a bit stronger than Gokou's. Although I still believe Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and Vegeta will always be at least relative towards each other. Mainly because both are able to hold their own against Jiren in their Super Saiyan Blue. Albeit Jiren was, and probably still is in a suppressed state.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:59 pm

Thought I'd take the opportunity to post what I think is the latest power scale.

Zen-Oh
Grand Priest

Vados
Whis

Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Quitela
Champa

Sword of Hope Trunks
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2

Fused Zamasu (Halo)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks

Kefla
Ultimate Gohan
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Controlled Kale
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Android 17
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Piccolo
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu

Monna
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Android 18
Giant Super Ribrianne
Super Ribrianne
Jimeze
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Lavender
Basil
Ribrianne
Tagoma

Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Ganos

Shisami
Jaco

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:14 pm

Why is Piccolo so high?

Also shouldn't 18 be higher? The fact that she survived punches from Aniraza is pretty impressive
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:35 pm

Bullza wrote:So who do you guys think is stronger. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta after his Pride Boost or Aniraza?
I actually don't think Vegeta got stronger. He just used a super powered up Final Flash.

Similar to what Goku did against Zamasu.

Also, shouldn't Quitela be stronger than Beerus?
Last edited by ZombieVito on Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:38 pm

TheDipDap1234 wrote:Why is Piccolo so high?

Also shouldn't 18 be higher? The fact that she survived punches from Aniraza is pretty impressive
Well Piccolo was a match for Super Saiyan 2 Gohan so he should be around that level because all the Saiyans seem to be on a similar level.

It's hard to say about Android 18 too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:44 pm

Bullza wrote:
TheDipDap1234 wrote:Why is Piccolo so high?

Also shouldn't 18 be higher? The fact that she survived punches from Aniraza is pretty impressive
Well Piccolo was a match for Super Saiyan 2 Gohan so he should be around that level because all the Saiyans seem to be on a similar level.

It's hard to say about Android 18 too.
In the ToP he mostly came off as being base level to me since he didn't seem to do any better against Saonel and Pirina than base Gohan did. I wouldn't be surprised if they just simply retconned his strenght. They did something similar to Ribrianne who fought evenly with SSJ Vegeta but later on was losing to Base Vegeta.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:02 pm

TheDipDap1234 wrote:Why is Piccolo so high?

Also shouldn't 18 be higher? The fact that she survived punches from Aniraza is pretty impressive
Anilaza is not a mindless brute,he must have hold back when he hitted 18.The gap between 18 and Krillin shouldn't be that big as shown in 98 so i put both of them around base goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:08 pm

The gr wrote:
TheDipDap1234 wrote:Why is Piccolo so high?

Also shouldn't 18 be higher? The fact that she survived punches from Aniraza is pretty impressive
Anilaza is not a mindless brute,he must have hold back when he hitted 18.The gap between 18 and Krillin shouldn't be that big as shown in 98 so i put both of them around base goku.
Anilaza not a mindless monster? First time i'm hearing this. He wanted to destroy the arena and eat his opponents. Nothing indicates he was holding back when hitting 18. Ep 99 happened a long time ago, 18 has gotten way stronger since then.
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