Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Rally 07
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:27 pm

[quote="brett wheeler"]

about sbg, it doesnt exist as a separate form, nor has it ever, goku does hold back a lot to have a fair fight but that doesnt mean sbg is a thing. personally I dont believe gokus base is ssg lvl just really strong ( above ssj vegito buu saga definitely )

See there's the problem. Saiyan beyond God is Gokou absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God into his Base form, which boosted his Base form to a totally new level of power. This is straight up stated and solidified several times within the series. Regardless of what you believe, God Essence/Saiyan beyond God is indeed at thing. Also It's not a seperate form, nor was it ever.
Also this is further proved that Saiyan beyond God is a thing because Base form Gokou was seen as a rival for Freeza. Freeza believed Gokou would square up to him in Base form which could also mean Gokou was probably underestimating Freeza and would think Freeza is as strong as he was in the Fukkatsu no F story arc. This could also mean that Base form Gokou is possibly as strong as Super Saiyan Blue in the Fukkatsu no F story arc. How could his Base form be this strong or as strong as it is if he didn't absorb Super Saiyan God? But anyway, this is just some further proof that can solidify that Gokou indeed absorbed the Super Saiyan God's power which is basically God Essence/Saiyan Beyond God. Proving Saiyan beyond God is actually a thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MajinVegetaPD » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:30 pm

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Here's my personal tier ranking of Super characters (went a little overboard, meant to only include the godly characters, ended up including damn near everyone):

-Slightly above Hakaishin: Jiren, UIO Goku, SS2 Kafla
-Hakaishin: the Hakaishin, GoD Toppo, SSB Vegetto, Beerus, Spirit Sword Trunks
-Slightly below Hakaishin: SS1 Kafla, SSB KKx20 Goku, SSB2 Vegeta, Fused Zamasu
-Mid KK SSB: Anilaza
-Low KK SSB: Koichiarator, Super Dyspo, Hit, base Toppo
-High SSB: SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSR Goku Black, True Golden Freeza
-Mid SSB: Golden Freeza in 'F', SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in the U6 tournament and the start of the Future Trunks arc
-Low SSB: SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in 'F', Gohan, SSI Future Trunks, Android 17, Gigantic Bergamo
-High SSG: base Kafla, Saonel, Pirina, Maji-Kayo, Dyspo
-Mid SSG: SSG Goku, Future Zamasu
-Low SSG: MBSS Kale
-Between SSG and SBG: BSS Kale
-SBG: SBG Goku, SBG Vegeta, SBG Goku Black, FF Freeza, Kahseral
-SS3: Fit Buu, SS3 Goku, Obuni, Android 18, Giant Ribrianne
-SS2: Piccolo, SS2 Saiyans, CBSS Kale, Present Zamasu
-Between SS2 and SS1: Magetta, Wrecking Ball Monna, Mr. Buu, Rubalt
-SS1: SS1 Saiyans, Super Ribrianne, Frost
-Between SS1 and base: Both Kamikaze Fireballs teams, Jimmies, U Katopesla, the rest of the Pride Troopers, Napapa, ToP mooks
-Base: base Saiyans, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Buff Roshi, almost all of U9, the U3 robots, more ToP mooks
-Slightly below base: Roshi, the rest of the mooks
UI Goku did nothing to a suppressed Jiren other then dodge his attacks. Not sure why anyone thinks UI is a raw power boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:33 pm

Guesswhoo wrote:I can't understand how someone can tell kelfa is stronger than SSB vegito, it just contradicti about every logic in and out of the universe.
You should really explain how it's "contradictory" as you claim. This is basically an example of an Hitchen's Razor argument. This argument can be disregarded due to the lack of evidence and explanation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:39 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
brett wheeler wrote:
about sbg, it doesnt exist as a separate form, nor has it ever, goku does hold back a lot to have a fair fight but that doesnt mean sbg is a thing. personally I dont believe gokus base is ssg lvl just really strong ( above ssj vegito buu saga definitely )

See there's the problem. Saiyan beyond God is Gokou absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God into his Base form, which boosted his Base form to a totally new level of power. This is straight up stated and solidified several times within the series. Regardless of what you believe, God Essence/Saiyan beyond God is indeed at thing. Also It's not a seperate form, nor was it ever.
Also this is further proved that Saiyan beyond God is a thing because Base form Gokou was seen as a rival for Freeza. Freeza believed Gokou would square up to him in Base form which could also mean Gokou was probably underestimating Freeza and would think Freeza is as strong as he was in the Fukkatsu no F story arc. This could also mean that Base form Gokou is possibly as strong as Super Saiyan Blue in the Fukkatsu no F story arc. How could his Base form be this strong or as strong as it is if he didn't absorb Super Saiyan God? But anyway, this is just some further proof that can solidify that Gokou indeed absorbed the Super Saiyan God's power which is basically God Essence/Saiyan Beyond God. Proving Saiyan beyond God is actually a thing.
my bad, I thought you where saying sbg and base where different. As for how strong it is, thats up to opinion all thats set in stone is gokus base is massively stronger than goku ( in any form from z ) has ever been.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:40 pm

TheDipDap1234 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: That Rildo looking guy obtained all of Ribrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit on an exhausted base Goku.
He didn't have 2 other transformations like Ribrianne did.
It still shows she's weak as hell.

Goku pretty much needed 17 and 18 help to even stand after eliminating them. He was very exhausted.

On Kefla, she can't be over Vegetto by simple power scaling.

Kale on her strongest form couldn't even land a hit on a tired SSG. So Kefla in SS isn't even on SSG Vegetto's level and I seriously doubt her SS2 form has a bigger multiplier than SSG -> SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:48 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote: And about Kefla, she is very well comparable to a ssb kaioken x20.
Oh yeah indeed, even in her suppressed state. Then she slaps Blue Gokou w/Kaioken like it's nothing. Then there's Ultra Instinct Gokou for the second time. A stronger Ultra Instinct, whom Kefla as a Super Saiyan 2 is comparable to as well.
And UI is still far from A G.o.D. Non of the instances where Goku has gone UI has any statement been made that he has reach the gods, not even Kefla. But you know who has statements? Jiren, and toppo. The tournament will tell us when they’ll reach the level, UI goku hasn’t yet (tho he will)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Guesswhoo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:52 pm

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Here's my personal tier ranking of Super characters (went a little overboard, meant to only include the godly characters, ended up including damn near everyone):

-Slightly above Hakaishin: Jiren, UIO Goku, SS2 Kafla
-Hakaishin: the Hakaishin, GoD Toppo, SSB Vegetto, Beerus, Spirit Sword Trunks
-Slightly below Hakaishin: SS1 Kafla, SSB KKx20 Goku, SSB2 Vegeta, Fused Zamasu
-Mid KK SSB: Anilaza
-Low KK SSB: Koichiarator, Super Dyspo, Hit, base Toppo
-High SSB: SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSR Goku Black, True Golden Freeza
-Mid SSB: Golden Freeza in 'F', SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in the U6 tournament and the start of the Future Trunks arc
-Low SSB: SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in 'F', Gohan, SSI Future Trunks, Android 17, Gigantic Bergamo
-High SSG: base Kafla, Saonel, Pirina, Maji-Kayo, Dyspo
-Mid SSG: SSG Goku, Future Zamasu
-Low SSG: MBSS Kale
-Between SSG and SBG: BSS Kale
-SBG: SBG Goku, SBG Vegeta, SBG Goku Black, FF Freeza, Kahseral
-SS3: Fit Buu, SS3 Goku, Obuni, Android 18, Giant Ribrianne
-SS2: Piccolo, SS2 Saiyans, CBSS Kale, Present Zamasu
-Between SS2 and SS1: Magetta, Wrecking Ball Monna, Mr. Buu, Rubalt
-SS1: SS1 Saiyans, Super Ribrianne, Frost
-Between SS1 and base: Both Kamikaze Fireballs teams, Jimmies, U Katopesla, the rest of the Pride Troopers, Napapa, ToP mooks
-Base: base Saiyans, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Buff Roshi, almost all of U9, the U3 robots, more ToP mooks
-Slightly below base: Roshi, the rest of the mooks
These two should logically be more powerful than GoD because Potara fusion is broken as shown by kelfa.
How the hell KKx20 is just "slightly" below two fused SSB ?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:54 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
TheDipDap1234 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: That Rildo looking guy obtained all of Ribrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit on an exhausted base Goku.
He didn't have 2 other transformations like Ribrianne did.
It still shows she's weak as hell.

Goku pretty much needed 17 and 18 help to even stand after eliminating them. He was very exhausted.

On Kefla, she can't be over Vegetto by simple power scaling.

Kale on her strongest form couldn't even land a hit on a tired SSG. So Kefla in SS isn't even on SSG Vegetto's level and I seriously doubt her SS2 form has a bigger multiplier than SSG -> SSB.
I put ssj2 Kefla at least on par with a SSJ3 vegito, but that’s in terms of logic. If we go by feats alone, she far outclasses anything vegito ever showed in ssb. And toppo decimates any feat done ever before, only second to zenos feat of destroying a timeline. I honestly don’t even know how a ssb vegito from a zamasu arc would fair against any god of destruction, I’m not even sure he can actually take out toppo. A current ssb vegito curbsstomp tho.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:56 pm

Also, I can’t believe people still think fused zamasu is on par with a god of destruction. It blows my mind, especially with the feats that hakaishin tier characters (toppo and jiren) are performing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Guesswhoo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:14 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
Guesswhoo wrote:I can't understand how someone can tell kelfa is stronger than SSB vegito, it just contradicti about every logic in and out of the universe.
You should really explain how it's "contradictory" as you claim. This is basically an example of an Hitchen's Razor argument. This argument can be disregarded due to the lack of evidence and explanation.
It is contradictory because Potara fusion have set in stone power up given to those who use it ( unless noted like rivalry which is not the case here), if A < A' and B < B' then LOGICALLY
(A+B)m < (A'+B')m . Caulifla and Kale are BOTH weaker than a tired SSG goku IN THEIR STRONGEST FORM, Vegito should STOMP Kelfa without even going SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:28 pm

Zeno
Grand Priest
Whis / Vados
Jiren
UI Goku
Beerus / SSB Vegetto / Merged Zamasu
Destroyer Toppo (Could be on par with Beerus / SSB Vegetto / Merged Zamasu)
SSB Vegeta (new form)
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
Base Toppo = SSB Goku Kaioken x2
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta
Dyspo
Golden Frieza
Android 17
Hit
Ultimate Gohan (current) = Dyspo (no speed)
Ritual form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku / Vegeta
SSJ1 Goku / Vegeta
Android 18 / Base Saiyans
Ribrianne (full power)
Piccolo / SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks
Fit Buu
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

Nothing really implies that Gohan is stronger than Android 17 as some are speculating. If anything, there are plenty of factors that suggest the opposite. Gohan couldn't do anything to Toppo despite having a few assists from 17. Even a sneak attack failed miserably and resulted him being tossed aside like some fodder nobody who needed to be rescued yet again.

Also, I highly doubt that Buuhan (or anyone around that level) could tangle with a Base Saiyan-tier fighter at this point.

Base Toppo is probably around 2x stronger than Android 17, judging by their brief scuffles and beam clash. I'm guessing the Kaioken Goku was about to showcase against Toppo was Kaioken 2x, so a fully powered up Base Toppo is presumably around that level as well.

As for 17, it seems pretty likely that he's more or less on par with SSB Goku / Vegeta from the Universe 6 tournament.
Last edited by supercat on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:37 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Also, I can’t believe people still think fused zamasu is on par with a god of destruction. It blows my mind, especially with the feats that hakaishin tier characters (toppo and jiren) are performing.
Well, he was on par with a GoD tier character.

Image

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:47 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Also, I can’t believe people still think fused zamasu is on par with a god of destruction. It blows my mind, especially with the feats that hakaishin tier characters (toppo and jiren) are performing.
Such as? Transcending time and space? Fused Zamasu also did that. I have yet to see Toppo or Jiren merging their souls with the very fabric of the Universe. Shaking the so-called 'World of Void'? How is that more impressive than merging with the fabric of the Universe? It was even stated by the ancient, wise and experienced Gowasu that the power of the fusion between the most powerful Goku Black and the immortal Zamasu had expanded to no end and gone beyond their comprehension.
Well, he was on par with a GoD tier character.

Image
Thank you.

On top of that, Fused Zamasu also managed to overpower Vegito for a moment, and even survived everything Vegito threw at him. Fused Zamasu is the first and only character who frustrated Vegito (note the tone of his voice towards the end of the fusion, he was no longer calm and cocky, even yelling things like 'Say goodbye!') and even inflicted bruises on him. The only reason why the good guys won that battle is not because Fused Zamasu was not strong enough to beat them. It's because they exploited the fracture between his half-mortal body and fully-immortal soul to destroy his physical form.
"Light of Divine Justice! Strike at me now! A cowering God who appeases evil can never prevail!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:52 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Also, I can’t believe people still think fused zamasu is on par with a god of destruction. It blows my mind, especially with the feats that hakaishin tier characters (toppo and jiren) are performing.
Well, he was on par with a GoD tier character.

Image
Vegito blue doesn’t seem so G.o.D tier now does him? Maybe shins statement was wrong in the manga, like many people thought. I used to believe it, but based on how actual G.o.D tier characters are preforming, I decided to take shins statement as in, he doesn’t know beerus limit, so he guessed vegito was that strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:54 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote: Vegito blue doesn’t seem so G.o.D tier now does him? Maybe shins statement was wrong in the manga, like many people thought. I used to believe it, but based on how actual G.o.D tier characters are preforming, I decided to take shins statement as in, he doesn’t know beerus limit, so he guessed vegito was that strong.
I have no reason to believe he's not GoD tier.

There's also Kefla, that scales Vegetto nicely to GoD tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:02 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote: Vegito blue doesn’t seem so G.o.D tier now does him? Maybe shins statement was wrong in the manga, like many people thought. I used to believe it, but based on how actual G.o.D tier characters are preforming, I decided to take shins statement as in, he doesn’t know beerus limit, so he guessed vegito was that strong.
I have no reason to believe he's not GoD tier.

There's also Kefla, that scales Vegetto nicely to GoD tier.
Not really. Kefla was stomped by UI goku (G.o.Ds presumably have I mastered versions of UI as well), and that UI goku is still not on G.o.D level. I don’t believe vegito blue is far below god
Level, but even if he was G.O.D level, due to the episode showing a hakaishin using hakai energy in a defensive and offensive way, I don’t think vegito blue can touch a G.o.D on beerus Caliber at all. I’m positive that a current ssb vegito is above a G.o.D no doubt tho.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:03 pm

And is fine if you believe that vegito is G.o.D level, its Your opinion and I don’t want to change it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:07 pm

Guesswhoo wrote:
It is contradictory because Potara fusion have set in stone power up given to those who use it ( unless noted like rivalry which is not the case here), if A < A' and B < B' then LOGICALLY
(A+B)m < (A'+B')m . Caulifla and Kale are BOTH weaker than a tired SSG goku IN THEIR STRONGEST FORM, Vegito should STOMP Kelfa without even going SSB.
Potara fusion multipliers have been sorta proven to be beyond God multipliers. And then in the manga, Vegetto casually deflected Zamas' attack in Base form. And it's really not contradictory to anything at all. It doesn't have any set or fixed multiplier. The multipliers vary this is proven with Vegetto himself. But the Potara multiplier should be a bare minimum 400 times multiplier as Base form Vegetto is confirmed stronger than Super Saiyan 3 which is a 400 times multiplier. Then you have Vegetto being stronger than Super Boo in Base form which is FAR beyond the bare minimum 400 times multiplier. Because Base form Vegetto should've have been able to fight Boohan.

Also Gokou and Vegeta were both weaker than Super Boo and Merged Zamas. So by your logic Super Boo and Merged Zamas should've stomped Vegetto, am I right?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:11 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
Guesswhoo wrote:
It is contradictory because Potara fusion have set in stone power up given to those who use it ( unless noted like rivalry which is not the case here), if A < A' and B < B' then LOGICALLY
(A+B)m < (A'+B')m . Caulifla and Kale are BOTH weaker than a tired SSG goku IN THEIR STRONGEST FORM, Vegito should STOMP Kelfa without even going SSB.
Potara fusion multipliers have been sorta proven to be beyond God multipliers. And then in the manga, Vegetto casually deflected Zamas' attack in Base form. And it's really not contradictory to anything at all. It doesn't have any set or fixed multiplier. The multipliers vary this is proven with Vegetto himself. But the Potara multiplier should be a bare minimum 400 times multiplier as Base form Vegetto is confirmed stronger than Super Saiyan 3 which is a 400 times multiplier. Then you have Vegetto being stronger than Super Boo in Base form which is FAR beyond the bare minimum 400 times multiplier. Because Base form Vegetto should've have been able to fight Boohan.

Also Gokou and Vegeta were both weaker than Super Boo and Merged Zamas. So by your logic Super Boo and Merged Zamas should've stomped Vegetto, am I right?
Base vegito wasn’t fighting in base in the manga tho. He went straight ssj once he was formed. Only the anime has base vegito fighting Buuhan. But you can make an argument there if you want.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:14 pm

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:Here's my personal tier ranking of Super characters (went a little overboard, meant to only include the godly characters, ended up including damn near everyone):

-Slightly above Hakaishin: Jiren, UIO Goku, SS2 Kafla
-Hakaishin: the Hakaishin, GoD Toppo, SSB Vegetto, Beerus, Spirit Sword Trunks
-Slightly below Hakaishin: SS1 Kafla, SSB KKx20 Goku, SSB2 Vegeta, Fused Zamasu
-Mid KK SSB: Anilaza
-Low KK SSB: Koichiarator, Super Dyspo, Hit, base Toppo
-High SSB: SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSR Goku Black, True Golden Freeza
-Mid SSB: Golden Freeza in 'F', SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in the U6 tournament and the start of the Future Trunks arc
-Low SSB: SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in 'F', Gohan, SSI Future Trunks, Android 17, Gigantic Bergamo
-High SSG: base Kafla, Saonel, Pirina, Maji-Kayo, Dyspo
-Mid SSG: SSG Goku, Future Zamasu
-Low SSG: MBSS Kale
-Between SSG and SBG: BSS Kale
-SBG: SBG Goku, SBG Vegeta, SBG Goku Black, FF Freeza, Kahseral
-SS3: Fit Buu, SS3 Goku, Obuni, Android 18, Giant Ribrianne
-SS2: Piccolo, SS2 Saiyans, CBSS Kale, Present Zamasu
-Between SS2 and SS1: Magetta, Wrecking Ball Monna, Mr. Buu, Rubalt
-SS1: SS1 Saiyans, Super Ribrianne, Frost
-Between SS1 and base: Both Kamikaze Fireballs teams, Jimmies, U Katopesla, the rest of the Pride Troopers, Napapa, ToP mooks
-Base: base Saiyans, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Buff Roshi, almost all of U9, the U3 robots, more ToP mooks
-Slightly below base: Roshi, the rest of the mooks
I don't think SSJ2 Kafla is that high. SSJB Vegetto should be at the same tier as Jiren. The reason you're putting him below is because you're going by his power level in the Future Trunks Saga and that's not right.. Goku and Vegeta have become a lot stronger since then. SSJB Vegetto outclasses SSJ2 Kafla due to their base unfused characters (Goku/Vegeta > Caulifla/Kale) being more powerful. Its logical that Vegetto > Kafla to begin with and of course SSJB > SSJ2. I think SSJ2 Kafla would have a hard time with GoD Toppo actually.

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