Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:16 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Vegito blue doesn’t seem so G.o.D tier now does him? Maybe shins statement was wrong in the manga, like many people thought. I used to believe it, but based on how actual G.o.D tier characters are preforming, I decided to take shins statement as in, he doesn’t know beerus limit, so he guessed vegito was that strong.
I used to believe that SSJ Blue Vegetto was far, far beyond destroyer deity level and guide angel level, but I recently changed my mind; I view Shin's statement, backed up by Toyotarō's uncertainty as to who's stronger, regarding Vegetto and Beerus as more of an intentional approximation of where characters' power and abilities stand rather than a demonstration of Shin's knowledge or lack thereof. Likewise, if SSJ Blue Vegetto was not on-par with a destroyer deity, then I see no way for Gokū or anyone else to ever reach such a level, even with whatever lies beyond Ultra Instinct Omen, if anything, which would kill off any possibility of Gokū ever matching Top or Beerus, much less Jiren.

That's just my rationale on the matter.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:16 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
TheDipDap1234 wrote:
He didn't have 2 other transformations like Ribrianne did.
It still shows she's weak as hell.

Goku pretty much needed 17 and 18 help to even stand after eliminating them. He was very exhausted.

On Kefla, she can't be over Vegetto by simple power scaling.

Kale on her strongest form couldn't even land a hit on a tired SSG. So Kefla in SS isn't even on SSG Vegetto's level and I seriously doubt her SS2 form has a bigger multiplier than SSG -> SSB.
I put ssj2 Kefla at least on par with a SSJ3 vegito, but that’s in terms of logic. If we go by feats alone, she far outclasses anything vegito ever showed in ssb. And toppo decimates any feat done ever before, only second to zenos feat of destroying a timeline. I honestly don’t even know how a ssb vegito from a zamasu arc would fair against any god of destruction, I’m not even sure he can actually take out toppo. A current ssb vegito curbsstomp tho.
Can't go by feats. If we go by feats we can logically assume SSG Goku > SSB Vegito because SSG Goku traded blows with Beerus which shook the universe and SSB Vegito didn't. A lot of characters have more potential the anime just doesn't show it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:18 pm

So far in my opinion, toppo has shown more power than any other fighter. Which would make sense since I don’t think a suppressed jiren is on G.o.D level, only his true power should be above G.o.D level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Also, I can’t believe people still think fused zamasu is on par with a god of destruction. It blows my mind, especially with the feats that hakaishin tier characters (toppo and jiren) are performing.
Well, he was on par with a GoD tier character.

Image
Vegetto was clearly superior to Merged Zamasu, even in the anime, in which the fight was more balanced than in the manga.

Zamasu only managed to hit him a hit or two.
But Vegetto dominated most of the fight, even mocked Zamasu.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote: Vegito blue doesn’t seem so G.o.D tier now does him? Maybe shins statement was wrong in the manga, like many people thought. I used to believe it, but based on how actual G.o.D tier characters are preforming, I decided to take shins statement as in, he doesn’t know beerus limit, so he guessed vegito was that strong.
I have no reason to believe he's not GoD tier.

There's also Kefla, that scales Vegetto nicely to GoD tier.
Not really. Kefla was stomped by UI goku (G.o.Ds presumably have I mastered versions of UI as well), and that UI goku is still not on G.o.D level. I don’t believe vegito blue is far below god
Level, but even if he was G.O.D level, due to the episode showing a hakaishin using hakai energy in a defensive and offensive way, I don’t think vegito blue can touch a G.o.D on beerus Caliber at all. I’m positive that a current ssb vegito is above a G.o.D no doubt tho.
UI Goku initial really is not GoD level. He was only able to rival a strongly suppressed Jiren. In fact, even in the fight against Goku SSB (EP 123) Jiren used more power than in the fight against UI.

But even so he was able to beat Kefla easily, so surely she is also well below the GoD level
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Here's my personal tier ranking of Super characters (went a little overboard, meant to only include the godly characters, ended up including damn near everyone):

-Slightly above Hakaishin: Jiren, UIO Goku, SS2 Kafla
-Hakaishin: the Hakaishin, GoD Toppo, SSB Vegetto, Beerus, Spirit Sword Trunks
-Slightly below Hakaishin: SS1 Kafla, SSB KKx20 Goku, SSB2 Vegeta, Fused Zamasu
-Mid KK SSB: Anilaza
-Low KK SSB: Koichiarator, Super Dyspo, Hit, base Toppo
-High SSB: SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSR Goku Black, True Golden Freeza
-Mid SSB: Golden Freeza in 'F', SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in the U6 tournament and the start of the Future Trunks arc
-Low SSB: SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in 'F', Gohan, SSI Future Trunks, Android 17, Gigantic Bergamo
-High SSG: base Kafla, Saonel, Pirina, Maji-Kayo, Dyspo
-Mid SSG: SSG Goku, Future Zamasu
-Low SSG: MBSS Kale
-Between SSG and SBG: BSS Kale
-SBG: SBG Goku, SBG Vegeta, SBG Goku Black, FF Freeza, Kahseral
-SS3: Fit Buu, SS3 Goku, Obuni, Android 18, Giant Ribrianne
-SS2: Piccolo, SS2 Saiyans, CBSS Kale, Present Zamasu
-Between SS2 and SS1: Magetta, Wrecking Ball Monna, Mr. Buu, Rubalt
-SS1: SS1 Saiyans, Super Ribrianne, Frost
-Between SS1 and base: Both Kamikaze Fireballs teams, Jimmies, U Katopesla, the rest of the Pride Troopers, Napapa, ToP mooks
-Base: base Saiyans, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Buff Roshi, almost all of U9, the U3 robots, more ToP mooks
-Slightly below base: Roshi, the rest of the mooks
Super Saiyan Rosè Goku Black should be Low KK SSB at the very least. In ep. 64, he states that his power had gone beyond even his own divine understanding. And later on, in ep. 65, Gowasu called Black 'the most powerful'. Black transcended time and space like Jiren, and was able to overpower both SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta with his endless army of clones.

I don't see Infinite Zamasu in you list. He would possibly be Hakaishin level or even slightly above. Since he transcended time and space and was immortal, so even the all-mighty Hakai technique wouldn't work on him. And he easily repelled a combined attack of three extremely powerful Saiyans. Even Beerus and Whis themselves, who were very distant from Earth, felt the energy of Zamasu ripping through time and space; an energy that even made Whis' skin tingle. And it was just a tiny fraction of his true power, as the bulk of Infinite Zamasu was in the Future timeline.
No, Black is not SSB KK level.
In EP 64, he did not increase his power as he did at other times (using zenkai), he only used the anger to create the sickle, and with the sickle he created that temporal gap that the clones left. In terms of raw power he is not stronger than Goku and Vegeta SSB (mainly because now in ToP they are much stronger in that form).
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:22 pm

gofishus wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: It still shows she's weak as hell.

Goku pretty much needed 17 and 18 help to even stand after eliminating them. He was very exhausted.

On Kefla, she can't be over Vegetto by simple power scaling.

Kale on her strongest form couldn't even land a hit on a tired SSG. So Kefla in SS isn't even on SSG Vegetto's level and I seriously doubt her SS2 form has a bigger multiplier than SSG -> SSB.
I put ssj2 Kefla at least on par with a SSJ3 vegito, but that’s in terms of logic. If we go by feats alone, she far outclasses anything vegito ever showed in ssb. And toppo decimates any feat done ever before, only second to zenos feat of destroying a timeline. I honestly don’t even know how a ssb vegito from a zamasu arc would fair against any god of destruction, I’m not even sure he can actually take out toppo. A current ssb vegito curbsstomp tho.
Can't go by feats. If we go by feats we can logically assume SSG Goku > SSB Vegito because SSG Goku traded blows with Beerus which shook the universe and SSB Vegito didn't. A lot of characters have more potential the anime just doesn't show it.
The thing is, that feats have been consistent with g.o.D level characters. All of them can affect an infinite dimension. While I believe ssb vegito from the zamasu arc is around G.o.D level, I don’t think he can defeat any G.o.D (possibly Sidra?) but that’s just my opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:29 pm

Zamasu only managed to hit him a hit or two.
But Vegetto dominated most of the fight, even mocked Zamasu.
He mocked Zamasu at the beginning of the fight. Later on, he was overpowered for a brief moment and stopped behaving in an immature way and mocking his opponent. As he realized he could not play around with such a foe.
In EP 64, he did not increase his power as he did at other times (using zenkai)
He stated that his power had gone beyond his own comprehension. He even says that his new method is 'turn anger into power'. In the following episode, Gowasu calls Black 'the most powerful'.
he only used the anger to create the sickle, and with the sickle he created that temporal gap that the clones left
Indeed, he was able to expand his power beyond his own comprehension and even transcend time and space.

Also, if Black had been weaker than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta at that point, then the two Saiyans would have easily overpowered Black's clones, who had the same power level as the original Black. Yet, even Black's clones were able to at times fight on-par if not even damage the two Saiyans, proof that Black had truly grown in power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:32 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Zamasu only managed to hit him a hit or two.
But Vegetto dominated most of the fight, even mocked Zamasu.
He mocked Zamasu at the beginning of the fight. Later on, he was overpowered for a brief moment and stopped behaving in an immature way and mocking his opponent. As he realized he could not play around with such a foe.
In EP 64, he did not increase his power as he did at other times (using zenkai)
He stated that his power had gone beyond his own comprehension. He even says that his new method is 'turn anger into power'. In the following episode, Gowasu calls Black 'the most powerful'.
he only used the anger to create the sickle, and with the sickle he created that temporal gap that the clones left
Indeed, he was able to expand his power beyond his own comprehension and even transcend time and space.
I don’t think you know what transcending time and space is at all. Might want to search a being who is above that. Try googling what an imp from the DC universe is, and you’ll see how a being that transcends time and space shits on all of dB. The only person to be stated above time is jiren, and any one who’s scales is as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:39 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Zamasu only managed to hit him a hit or two.
But Vegetto dominated most of the fight, even mocked Zamasu.
He mocked Zamasu at the beginning of the fight. Later on, he was overpowered for a brief moment and stopped behaving in an immature way and mocking his opponent. As he realized he could not play around with such a foe.
In EP 64, he did not increase his power as he did at other times (using zenkai)
He stated that his power had gone beyond his own comprehension. He even says that his new method is 'turn anger into power'. In the following episode, Gowasu calls Black 'the most powerful'.
he only used the anger to create the sickle, and with the sickle he created that temporal gap that the clones left
Indeed, he was able to expand his power beyond his own comprehension and even transcend time and space.

Also, if Black had been weaker than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta at that point, then the two Saiyans would have easily overpowered Black's clones, who had the same power level as the original Black. Yet, even Black's clones were able to at times fight on-par if not even damage the two Saiyans, proof that Black had truly grown in power.
No, Vegetto was not dominated in any moment. He even pretended that he had been defeated to attack Zamasu by surprise with his Ki sword.

At the end of the fight, Vegetto also intended to finish Zamasu with that punch, showing that he would be able to defeat him (although the Final Kamehameha supposedly did not work)
So Merged Zamasu is inferior to Vegetto.

Black saying that his power surpassed his own understanding does not say much about his actual level of power. In fact, this looks much more like a hyperbole, and Black clearly says that he will use the power of rage (anger is a momentary power, so he concentrated all his anger to create the sickle)

It was never said that Black's clones had the same level as the original Black.
They did not show any relevant force or attack, they were broken with simple punches of Goku and Vegeta, the question is that they regenerated

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:44 pm

I don’t think you know what transcending time and space is at all.
Zamasu's energy was having an impact on the two timelines at once. In the future timeline, and in the present timeline too, as Beerus stated. Do you another meaning for 'transcending time and space'?
The only person to be stated above time is jiren, and any one who’s scales is as well.
Who stated that? Doesn't matter. You previously said that you don't think Shin was right about Vegito being equal to a God of Destruction, so why should i take that piece of information about Jiren for granted?
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:47 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:No, Vegetto was not dominated in any moment. He even pretended that he had been defeated to attack Zamasu by surprise with his Ki sword.

At the end of the fight, Vegetto also intended to finish Zamasu with that punch, showing that he would be able to defeat him (although the Final Kamehameha supposedly did not work)
So Merged Zamasu is inferior to Vegetto.
Additionally, the manga depicts Vegetto as being just as superior to Zamas as he was to Boo back in the day; there wasn't a single moment in which Zamas was able to do any more than grab his ankles (and then lose his own hands).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:56 pm

No, Vegetto was not dominated in any moment. He even pretended that he had been defeated to attack Zamasu by surprise with his Ki sword.
No, in the moment prior to that you could see that he was punched in the guts by Zamasu.
At the end of the fight, Vegetto also intended to finish Zamasu with that punch, showing that he would be able to defeat him (although the Final Kamehameha supposedly did not work)
He did land the punch on Zamasu's face before defusing. Surprisingly, it hardly did anything.
Black saying that his power surpassed his own understanding does not say much about his actual level of power
It doesn't? Too bad it is later reinforced by the fact Gowasu refers to Black as 'the most powerful'.

If we take characters' statements for granted (like you did with Vegito), then Black stated in ep. 64 that his anger as a God, greater than anyone else's, made him the strongest. Indeed, as you noted, the power of Black was so vast at that point that we don't even know his actual level of power. That's the point.
It was never said that Black's clones had the same level as the original Black.
The Dragon Ball Wiki would agree with me. What source do you have to back your statements?

Also, Black's clones were seen landing punches and kicks on Vegeta and Goku after regenerating.
Additionally, the manga depicts Vegetto as being just as superior to Zamas as he was to Boo back in the day; there wasn't a single moment in which Zamas was able to do any more than grab his ankles (and then lose his own hands).
Manga Fused Zamasu is vastly different from his anime counterpart, therefore there's no point in taking him into the equation.
I look down on existence from a much higher perspective than you do. I witness this world, this universe and the truth of all things. That yields deeper understanding. Wisdom. The realization that all mortals should be destroyed. The one and only mistake among all divine creations. That is what mortals are. And this mistake is egregious. To shape existence into the beautiful utopia it was always meant to be, the mistake must be corrected. I will purge all mortals from existence in place of the gods WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT FAILURE!!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:37 pm

Yeah sure, Vegetto wanted Zamasu to hit him in the face so he can stab him lmao.

Vegetto looked really serious by the end and even had scratches on him.

There's no way Merged Zamasu isn't GoD level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:36 pm

Vegito blasted Merged Zamasu with a Final Kamehameha and he hardly even reacted to it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:29 pm

Yeah, people are wanking zamasu arc characters a lot. Dragon has been a series where the next villain is more powerful than the last. Heck, it didn’t take Goku anything to surpass the highest level possible after the buu saga (SSJ3 vegito), he just went god and poof, stronger than anything before. Idk why people are still holding on comparing TOP god tiers to Zamazu arc god tiers. Vegito blue is comparable to a corrupted merged zamasu who was stated weaker to 110 jiren, who is now weaker than current jiren.


Also, this shows how bad Super has gotten in terms of power scaling. No one here is remotely even close to agreeing where the characters actually stand next to one another. They better have a guide after super is over, cause damn, its just a shit show.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
No, Vegetto was not dominated in any moment. He even pretended that he had been defeated to attack Zamasu by surprise with his Ki sword.
No, in the moment prior to that you could see that he was punched in the guts by Zamasu.
At the end of the fight, Vegetto also intended to finish Zamasu with that punch, showing that he would be able to defeat him (although the Final Kamehameha supposedly did not work)
He did land the punch on Zamasu's face before defusing. Surprisingly, it hardly did anything.
Black saying that his power surpassed his own understanding does not say much about his actual level of power
It doesn't? Too bad it is later reinforced by the fact Gowasu refers to Black as 'the most powerful'.

If we take characters' statements for granted (like you did with Vegito), then Black stated in ep. 64 that his anger as a God, greater than anyone else's, made him the strongest. Indeed, as you noted, the power of Black was so vast at that point that we don't even know his actual level of power. That's the point.
It was never said that Black's clones had the same level as the original Black.
The Dragon Ball Wiki would agree with me. What source do you have to back your statements?

Also, Black's clones were seen landing punches and kicks on Vegeta and Goku after regenerating.
Additionally, the manga depicts Vegetto as being just as superior to Zamas as he was to Boo back in the day; there wasn't a single moment in which Zamas was able to do any more than grab his ankles (and then lose his own hands).
Manga Fused Zamasu is vastly different from his anime counterpart, therefore there's no point in taking him into the equation.
Yes, he took that blow, but did not cause any significant damage to Vegetto, who clearly pretended to have been defeated so he could catch Zamasu by surprise

And just after Vegetto hit that punch in Zamasu, some sort of purple smoke comes out of his face, even looking like he was breaking up.
But the merger fell apart on time, so Vegetto probably did not have enough time to finish Zamasu, but that was the intention and it seemed that it would work

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

In fact, Black just said that if anger could be a source of power, he would be the strongest to have the most anger. He did not say he was the strongest, he only used anger as a parameter

Anyone can edit the Wiki. And although they try to pass correct information, Black's clones have the same power as the original Black is something that was never said in the anime.

And Black's clones only struck a hit on both Goku and Vegeta throughout the fight (even with a lot of clones attacking at the same time). So they were not so strong, but they were in great numbers and regenerated
ZombieVito wrote:Yeah sure, Vegetto wanted Zamasu to hit him in the face so he can stab him lmao.

Vegetto looked really serious by the end and even had scratches on him.

There's no way Merged Zamasu isn't GoD level.
No one said that Vegetto was hit by Zamasu on purpose, but when he fell, he stayed on the ground for a long time until Zamasu attacked. And this clearly was a strategy of the own Vegetto, that waited until the last second to attack Zamasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:11 pm

The fact that people are even considering SSJ2 Kefla above SSB Vegetto hurts my soul lol. But I can see the reasoning behind. It's just... so frustrating.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:17 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Yeah, people are wanking zamasu arc characters a lot. Dragon has been a series where the next villain is more powerful than the last. Heck, it didn’t take Goku anything to surpass the highest level possible after the buu saga (SSJ3 vegito), he just went god and poof, stronger than anything before. Idk why people are still holding on comparing TOP god tiers to Zamazu arc god tiers. Vegito blue is comparable to a corrupted merged zamasu who was stated weaker to 110 jiren, who is now weaker than current jiren.


Also, this shows how bad Super has gotten in terms of power scaling. No one here is remotely even close to agreeing where the characters actually stand next to one another. They better have a guide after super is over, cause damn, its just a shit show.
When did I said Corrupted Zamasu was stronger than Jiren?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:34 pm

wolflonnie wrote:The fact that people are even considering SSJ2 Kefla above SSB Vegetto hurts my soul lol. But I can see the reasoning behind. It's just... so frustrating.
There's no reasoning: Super power levels are just messed up, by logical means SSJ2 Kefla should be still weaker than a (FT) Super Vegetto.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:36 pm

Noah wrote:There's no reasoning: Super power levels are just messed up, by logical means SSJ2 Kefla should be still weaker than a (FT) Super Vegetto.
Given the green color of her hair, I like to think of Kafla's SSJ forms as a combination of Caulifla's and Kale's: Caulifla's SSJ1 and SSJ2 combine with Kale's LSSJ to create hybrid LSSJ1 and LSSJ2 forms. Something to that effect, at least.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:39 pm

Black Hawk wrote:Given the green color of her hair, I like to think of Kafla's SSJ forms as a combination of Caulifla's and Kale's: Caulifla's SSJ1 and SSJ2 combine with Kale's LSSJ to create hybrid LSSJ1 and LSSJ2 forms. Something to that effect, at least.
But, then how comparable is LSSJ to the God forms? That's the question.
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