Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Miracles wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Dyspo is a bad example, because his speed was the only that increased with his “maximum high speed mode”. So yes, that was a battle about speed over power. But those are just rare exceptions. Dyspo is basically the flash, he uses his speed to pack a punch.
Nope. Dyspo's overall power increased proven by the fact base Dyspo couldn't hurt Golden Freeza with his punch but "Hyper-speed mode" Dyspo was damaging Golden Freeza.
And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:53 pm

Bullza wrote:So my line of thinking is that in the manga Beerus and Champa were implied to be about to wipe out the universe with a single shot which is why Whis and Vados knocked them out.

When Kefla became a Super Saiyan 2 it was only at that point that she felt she had enough power to wipe out a universe with one shot. Which would naturally mean she didn't have that power beforehand. Therefore Ultra Instinct Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla and everyone else below that level would not be as strong as a God of Destruction.

Which makes me think that God of Destruction Toppo > Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 and Super Saiyan Kefla.
When Kefla said she felt she could destroy the universe with a blow, it seemed a lot more because of her excitement with her new power than a real possibility (later, she says she had bubbling power and emphasizes how happy she is to be Saiyan , which reinforces that she was very excited). Basically, it was just hyperbole
SayianBeyondGod wrote:I did some digging for some context of Kefla vs Goku and I've came to a conclusion that Kefla may not be strong as we thought or Spirit bomb level. I mean I see people wank her above GOD Toppo level(what we see in episode 125) and UI Goku in other forums.

First of all here are the actual Japanese translations of the scene in episode 116, which I've been given from someone whom speaks Japanese:

Whis: -「今度の発動の引き金はおそらくケフラさん」
Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefla-san
Beerus: -「奴の巨大な気が…」
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」
Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivaled his power when he bathed in the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.

Important part being "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気", in detail and somewhat transliterally:
"元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" means "The power of when [Goku] bathed in the Genkidama"
"匹敵するほど" means "to be so much as to rival" (匹敵 means equaling/rivaling/matching)
"ケフラさんの気" means "Kefla-san's Ki"

So in other words, Whis isn't comparing Kelfa to the Genkidama, but to Goku when he bathed in the Genkidama. Most likely is that Whis is talking about Kelfa gigantic ki made Goku rival the low state he was to when he bathed in the Genkidama, especially when he was so fatigued he fell into the spirt bomb with his Ki being hard to sense and low under rubble to the point no one could sense it momentarily. It wouldn't make sense for kefla power to be comparable to the Goku low state but instead the effects as both broke his limit to the point he had no ki left. Regardless it makes more sense if you connect the rest of the context without disturbing the statement, as Whis continue to talk about Kefla ki being a stimulus that broke his shell which reinforces the fact he was comparing the effect(both pushed Goku into a low state) and role interpretation. Even the narrator confirms that it was the extreme overall battle that served to trigger the form not a single attack/kick that rivalled the Genkidama. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards. Besides translation with further context of the scene or more credible feats to back it up, it was obvious Whis was talking about Kelfa having the spirit bomb role rather than literal power.

In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah", even while further saying and acknowledging that he didn't know Kefla power as SSJ would be so powerful at the same time and it was a happy miscalculation. So it can't be implied that Champa still underestimates her.

Later on fatigued Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier. When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power. This was most likely x10 as powered up more as that's when his aura get significantly expands when powering from regular kaioken to x10 like as shown in the battle with Hit, but again you could argue he's just using a higher of his normal kaioken to x3-4. So to think her power skyrocketed without powering up in the same form would be absurd especially when going from being inferior to fatigue SSBKK to the Genkidama even with one kick. If we assume that Kefla at SSJ alone is genkidama level, in the same time it's like conceding that full power SSB or fatigue SSBKK(x10 if not less) would rival too.

It should be noted that Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of staimia/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha. Just like the Hit fight, his stamina began to got worse and would've did more damage to him if the fight prolong. As far dragon ball goes injuries do result to reduce Ki, like when Gohan got kicked in the head during the Ginyu force battle.

When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.

Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん!
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"

Even if you translate 先ほど in google translator It'll come up with "earlier" even though google translator isn't always reliable when it comes to interpreting different languages in English, the same kanji meaning is still close to the translation above. Regardless the only more recent previous level that happened was SSBKK that Goku used while fatigued and was already overpowering Kefla.
Very interesting. So on EP 116, when Piccolo says that Kefla overcame Goku's recent power, he was probably referring to the SSB KK used on EP 115?

And in fact, the context of Whis's talk about Kefla's power being comparable to that of Genkidama, he was actually referring to the fact that both forced Goku to activate the UI, and not exactly about its power being as large as that of a Genkidama, right?

Anyway, I never believed that the power of Kefla was as great as some people speak. EP 115 makes that clear.
Even in SSJ2, it would not make any sense for her to be superior to UI Goku or Hakaishins
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: So what's with all this talk of landing solid blows, or blocking stopping most of the damage, or regular attacks simply not working against certain opponents?

I get it. People just want their power-scaling consistency to fit a single tried-and-true mold.

But honestly.......

Why does Roshi "have to be" close to some fighter's levels to be able to fight them? Why does doing well in a fight "have to be" down to being stronger than your opponent? Why does the power level "have to be" the most important part of a fight between martial artists?

The paradigm has shifted for the narrative being told right now. No longer is it merely about who's the strongest, at least not all the time. It's about the best overall fighter one can be, whether it be through power (i.e. Jiren), speed (i.e. Dyspo), experience (i.e. Roshi), or some combination thereof (i.e. Ultra Instinct Goku). In-universe, the characters note fighters' power levels AND how well they can fight. Why was Jiren able to tank SSB Vegeta's blows earlier but then catch a few solid blows in the exact same episode? Because Vegeta read his movements and landed his blows accordingly. Many other fights throughout this whole tournament have been predicated on this kind of martial arts narrative.
But Vegeta said Jiren wasn't fighting as strong or fast as he was against Kakarot. Then when Jiren got serious he smacked Vegeta around easily.
Even When Vegeta hit Jiren, the blows did no damage to him. Since later a much more powerful attack in Final Flash did absolutely nothing to Jiren.

Even in Master Roshi's battle, his skill meant nothing when his opponent's strength grew to another level. Roshi had to resort in beating him with higher power with his best and strongest Kamehameha.
Even Dyspo's speed was outclassed by a "more powerful" Golden Freeza. Dyspo didn't become faster than Golden Freeza until he "raised his overall Ki" to become stronger than Golden Freeza.

Even Ultra Instinct Goku needed a power boost for his skill set to be effective against Jiren in the episode special. This was stated by Tien and Whis.
Dragonball has always been about the martial arts narrative. However the Ki level was always the deciding factor for victory. The "skill" was just an added bonus.
At least as Vegeta dodges Jiren's punches after predicting his moves (seeing Goku's fight), nothing indicates that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku. Apparently, he only did it after Vegeta punched him, which destabilized Jiren because of the scare.

But yes, anyway, in the end Jiren defeated Vegeta because of his great power.
I feel Vegeta predicting Jiren's moves could have been much better explored on EP 122, and it would be interesting if that gave him the advantage in the fight (with Jiren using the same power as before), even though Vegeta was not necessarily so powerful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".
Nope. Freeza stated Dyspo's "Ki increased." That's why he was able to damage Golden Freeza when he could not before cause his STRENGTH increased as well.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:At least as Vegeta dodges Jiren's punches after predicting his moves (seeing Goku's fight), nothing indicates that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku. Apparently, he only did it after Vegeta punched him, which destabilized Jiren because of the scare.

But yes, anyway, in the end Jiren defeated Vegeta because of his great power.
I feel Vegeta predicting Jiren's moves could have been much better explored on EP 122, and it would be interesting if that gave him the advantage in the fight (with Jiren using the same power as before), even though Vegeta was not necessarily so powerful.
The fact that Vegeta was able to do the little he did against Jiren, then Jiren shuts him down after, proves Jiren was holding back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:10 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".
Nope. Freeza stated Dyspo's "Ki increased." That's why he was able to damage Golden Freeza when he could not before cause his STRENGTH increased as well.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:At least as Vegeta dodges Jiren's punches after predicting his moves (seeing Goku's fight), nothing indicates that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku. Apparently, he only did it after Vegeta punched him, which destabilized Jiren because of the scare.

But yes, anyway, in the end Jiren defeated Vegeta because of his great power.
I feel Vegeta predicting Jiren's moves could have been much better explored on EP 122, and it would be interesting if that gave him the advantage in the fight (with Jiren using the same power as before), even though Vegeta was not necessarily so powerful.
The fact that Vegeta was able to do the little he did against Jiren, then Jiren shuts him down after, proves Jiren was holding back.
Jiren was holding back throughout the tournament. But at the beginning of the '' second round '' against Goku and Vegeta, he was managing to dominate both easily.

But even so, Vegeta was able to hit him, and that was because he managed to read the movements of Jiren.

What I'm saying is that by the time Vegeta hit the first blow, there is no indication that Jiren was using less power than he used to fight Goku.
Only after the punch, with the fright, did Jiren slow down.

But after Vegeta provokes him saying that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku, Jiren quickly recovers and dominates Vegeta
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".
Nope. Freeza stated Dyspo's "Ki increased." That's why he was able to damage Golden Freeza when he could not before cause his STRENGTH increased as well.
No, Freeza did not say that Dyspo's Ki increased. He just said ''this energy emanated from Dyspo ... ''

He was able to cause damage to Freeza because of his incredible speed, which was far superior to his previous speed
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:19 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".
Nope. Freeza stated Dyspo's "Ki increased." That's why he was able to damage Golden Freeza when he could not before cause his STRENGTH increased as well.
Just checked the subs. Nothing of the sort was said. Freeza only noted that Dyspo has an energy emanating from him, and Dyspo's speed was the thing noted to have significantly increased.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:34 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Dyspo is a bad example, because his speed was the only that increased with his “maximum high speed mode”. So yes, that was a battle about speed over power. But those are just rare exceptions. Dyspo is basically the flash, he uses his speed to pack a punch.
Nope. Dyspo's overall power increased proven by the fact base Dyspo couldn't hurt Golden Freeza with his punch but "Hyper-speed mode" Dyspo was damaging Golden Freeza.
And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".
M8 compare and contrast
Base Dyspo punch couldn't do Jack shit to golden freeza
A punch from him in Max speed mode told a different story
So there's definitely were an increase in power for him doesn't need to be said there

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:38 pm

pacz360 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: Nope. Dyspo's overall power increased proven by the fact base Dyspo couldn't hurt Golden Freeza with his punch but "Hyper-speed mode" Dyspo was damaging Golden Freeza.
And yet ONLY Dyspo's speed was stated to have increased, since that's the whole schtick behind his "Ultimate Speed Mode".
M8 compare and contrast
Base Dyspo punch couldn't do Jack shit to golden freeza
A punch from him in Max speed mode told a different story
So there's definitely were an increase in power for him doesn't need to be said there
No there is no power increase, it’s all speed.
If you can crack a window with a punch, throwing a punch faster without strenght increase will cause it to break. It’s all speed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:39 pm

And I saw the subs, and te only thing about Ki that was stated was that dyspo is emanating a strange Ki, not that his power has gone up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:44 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:But honestly.......

Why does Roshi "have to be" close to some fighter's levels to be able to fight them? Why does doing well in a fight "have to be" down to being stronger than your opponent? Why does the power level "have to be" the most important part of a fight between martial artists?
Because believe it or not, DB has been a battle shonen since the 21st Budokai saga. Importants factors only matter in holding own/near equal fight, once the fighter is significantly above the weaker fighter it becomes a normal human vs a brick wall.
The paradigm has shifted for the narrative being told right now. No longer is it merely about who's the strongest, at least not all the time. It's about the best overall fighter one can be, whether it be through power (i.e. Jiren), speed (i.e. Dyspo), experience (i.e. Roshi), or some combination thereof (i.e. Ultra Instinct Goku). In-universe, the characters note fighters' power levels AND how well they can fight. Why was Jiren able to tank SSB Vegeta's blows earlier but then catch a few solid blows in the exact same episode? Because Vegeta read his movements and landed his blows accordingly. Many other fights throughout this whole tournament have been predicated on this kind of martial arts narrative.
The real reason? Bad, forced, and contrived writing. If this show was decently written to any significant degree Jiren would have oneshotted Goku, Vegeta, and everyone else a long time ago consisering the worlds apart gap and all. The only thing saving these characters is a weak and poor plot and nothing else.

The reason Vegeta was able to read and land his blows on Jiren is because he was holding back way less than what he was using earlier, once he upped the ante a little he beat the brakes off of Vegeta fairly quick with little resistance.

There's a reason why Kuririn, Roshi, Tenshinhan, 18, and Piccolo never face any of the real heavy hitters like Dyspo, Hit, Kale, Jiren, Toppo, and so on, they would have been swiftly beaten into the bleachers without having time to once shine.

I don't have a problem with varied skillset as long as it fits within the internal consistency of the established lore and what not.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:45 pm

When it comes to the GoD in the manga this is how I see it. Beerus, Quitela and Belmod are all on the same level but...

Beerus - The Most Skilled Warrior: Of all the gods Beerus has the greatest skill in battle and has even taken steps to master Ultra Instinct.

Quitela - The Physically Strongest: Despite his small frame, Quitela has the greatest physical strength. This put him on an even playingfield with the the more skilled Beerus when UI is not in play.

Belmod - The Most Powerful: Belmod holds the greatest power among the gods in terms of raw ki.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:51 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Just checked the subs. Nothing of the sort was said. Freeza only noted that Dyspo has an energy emanating from him, and Dyspo's speed was the thing noted to have significantly increased.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Jiren was holding back throughout the tournament. But at the beginning of the '' second round '' against Goku and Vegeta, he was managing to dominate both easily.

But even so, Vegeta was able to hit him, and that was because he managed to read the movements of Jiren.

What I'm saying is that by the time Vegeta hit the first blow, there is no indication that Jiren was using less power than he used to fight Goku.
Only after the punch, with the fright, did Jiren slow down.

But after Vegeta provokes him saying that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku, Jiren quickly recovers and dominates Vegeta

No, Freeza did not say that Dyspo's Ki increased. He just said ''this energy emanated from Dyspo ... ''

He was able to cause damage to Freeza because of his incredible speed, which was far superior to his previous speed
Context...
Freeza: "Sadly you will never be able to match my power." "This energy [Ki] emanating from Dyspo." "REGARDLESS, you're no threat to me."
Then Dyspo proceeds to SMACK away an attack that he couldn't take while in base mode before. Proving Dyspo powered up his overall strength not just speed.

The fact with Vegeta and Jiren, Jiren was holding back against Vegeta unlike Goku. Regardless of any version of Goku you wanna use.
The truth is Jiren was still not fighting as hard against Vegeta as he was Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:42 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Just checked the subs. Nothing of the sort was said. Freeza only noted that Dyspo has an energy emanating from him, and Dyspo's speed was the thing noted to have significantly increased.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Jiren was holding back throughout the tournament. But at the beginning of the '' second round '' against Goku and Vegeta, he was managing to dominate both easily.

But even so, Vegeta was able to hit him, and that was because he managed to read the movements of Jiren.

What I'm saying is that by the time Vegeta hit the first blow, there is no indication that Jiren was using less power than he used to fight Goku.
Only after the punch, with the fright, did Jiren slow down.

But after Vegeta provokes him saying that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku, Jiren quickly recovers and dominates Vegeta

No, Freeza did not say that Dyspo's Ki increased. He just said ''this energy emanated from Dyspo ... ''

He was able to cause damage to Freeza because of his incredible speed, which was far superior to his previous speed
Context...
Freeza: "Sadly you will never be able to match my power." "This energy [Ki] emanating from Dyspo." "REGARDLESS, you're no threat to me."
Then Dyspo proceeds to SMACK away an attack that he couldn't take while in base mode before. Proving Dyspo powered up his overall strength not just speed.

The fact with Vegeta and Jiren, Jiren was holding back against Vegeta unlike Goku. Regardless of any version of Goku you wanna use.
The truth is Jiren was still not fighting as hard against Vegeta as he was Goku.

Nothing about power like you quoted. Don’t forget the explanation they give later about dyspo having increased his speed even more. Context matters

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:01 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Just checked the subs. Nothing of the sort was said. Freeza only noted that Dyspo has an energy emanating from him, and Dyspo's speed was the thing noted to have significantly increased.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Jiren was holding back throughout the tournament. But at the beginning of the '' second round '' against Goku and Vegeta, he was managing to dominate both easily.

But even so, Vegeta was able to hit him, and that was because he managed to read the movements of Jiren.

What I'm saying is that by the time Vegeta hit the first blow, there is no indication that Jiren was using less power than he used to fight Goku.
Only after the punch, with the fright, did Jiren slow down.

But after Vegeta provokes him saying that he was using less power than in the fight against Goku, Jiren quickly recovers and dominates Vegeta

No, Freeza did not say that Dyspo's Ki increased. He just said ''this energy emanated from Dyspo ... ''

He was able to cause damage to Freeza because of his incredible speed, which was far superior to his previous speed
Context...
Freeza: "Sadly you will never be able to match my power." "This energy [Ki] emanating from Dyspo." "REGARDLESS, you're no threat to me."
Then Dyspo proceeds to SMACK away an attack that he couldn't take while in base mode before. Proving Dyspo powered up his overall strength not just speed.

The fact with Vegeta and Jiren, Jiren was holding back against Vegeta unlike Goku. Regardless of any version of Goku you wanna use.
The truth is Jiren was still not fighting as hard against Vegeta as he was Goku.
You still do not understand

Jiren was using less power in the fight against Vegeta alone, but when Goku and Vegeta confronted Jiren together (EP 122) and when Vegeta hit the first punch in Jiren, nothing indicates that Jiren was using less power.
It only happened after Vegeta's punch, because Jiren was scared and slowed down.

That is, when Vegeta predicts Jiren's moves and deviates from his punches for the first time, he has no speech proving that he was using less power.
Vegeta just noticed this and said it after the first punch

Freeza noticed that Dyspo was emanating Ki, but he did not say anything about Dyspo being stronger than before.

In fact, it is said that Dyspo is only faster and not stronger

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:05 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:You still do not understand

Jiren was using less power in the fight against Vegeta alone, but when Goku and Vegeta confronted Jiren together (EP 122) and when Vegeta hit the first punch in Jiren, nothing indicates that Jiren was using less power.
It only happened after Vegeta's punch, because Jiren was scared and slowed down.

That is, when Vegeta predicts Jiren's moves and deviates from his punches for the first time, he has no speech proving that he was using less power.
Vegeta just noticed this and said it after the first punch

Freeza noticed that Dyspo was emanating Ki, but he did not say anything about Dyspo being stronger than before.

In fact, it is said that Dyspo is only still faster and not stronger
Dyspo BLOCKED and SWATTED away an attack from Golden Freeza after powering up. He couldn't do this before. That proves Dyspo's overall power increased.
Goku hasn't recovered yet and Jiren used less power against both of them. Vegeta was referring to Goku in the special. That's why Vegeta got blasted away with the "it's over" finishing move.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:19 pm

Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:You still do not understand

Jiren was using less power in the fight against Vegeta alone, but when Goku and Vegeta confronted Jiren together (EP 122) and when Vegeta hit the first punch in Jiren, nothing indicates that Jiren was using less power.
It only happened after Vegeta's punch, because Jiren was scared and slowed down.

That is, when Vegeta predicts Jiren's moves and deviates from his punches for the first time, he has no speech proving that he was using less power.
Vegeta just noticed this and said it after the first punch

Freeza noticed that Dyspo was emanating Ki, but he did not say anything about Dyspo being stronger than before.

In fact, it is said that Dyspo is only still faster and not stronger
Dyspo BLOCKED and SWATTED away an attack from Golden Freeza after powering up. He couldn't do this before. That proves Dyspo's overall power increased.
Goku hasn't recovered yet and Jiren used less power against both of them. Vegeta was referring to Goku in the special. That's why Vegeta got blasted away with the "it's over" finishing move.
OR........ His increased speed allowed him to more easily counter True Golden Freeza's movements and attacks, thus proving that his speed is the reason he could do this now and not before. Your line of logic goes both ways.

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:20 pm

Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:You still do not understand

Jiren was using less power in the fight against Vegeta alone, but when Goku and Vegeta confronted Jiren together (EP 122) and when Vegeta hit the first punch in Jiren, nothing indicates that Jiren was using less power.
It only happened after Vegeta's punch, because Jiren was scared and slowed down.

That is, when Vegeta predicts Jiren's moves and deviates from his punches for the first time, he has no speech proving that he was using less power.
Vegeta just noticed this and said it after the first punch

Freeza noticed that Dyspo was emanating Ki, but he did not say anything about Dyspo being stronger than before.

In fact, it is said that Dyspo is only still faster and not stronger
Dyspo BLOCKED and SWATTED away an attack from Golden Freeza after powering up. He couldn't do this before. That proves Dyspo's overall power increased.
Goku hasn't recovered yet and Jiren used less power against both of them. Vegeta was referring to Goku in the special. That's why Vegeta got blasted away with the "it's over" finishing move.
Dyspo was faster, and probably his reaction speed also increased, and so he was able to react to the attacks of Freeza.
But no one said he was stronger.

And the issue here is not the version of Goku that Vegeta was referring to when he said that Jiren used more power against Goku.

Vegeta just noticed that Jiren was slower when he confronted him alone.
When Goku and Vegeta were fighting together, this was not said in any moment. And yet, Vegeta managed to deflect Jiren's blows.

As I said, Jiren probably slowed down after taking Vegeta's first punch because he was scared. Just look at his face when Vegeta is swapping blows with him alone

When Vegeta noticed this, Jiren quickly recovered and dominated Vegeta.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:32 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:OR........ His increased speed allowed him to more easily counter True Golden Freeza's movements and attacks, thus proving that his speed is the reason he could do this now and not before. Your line of logic goes both ways.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Dyspo was faster, and probably his reaction speed also increased, and so he was able to react to the attacks of Freeza.
But no one said he was stronger.

And the issue here is not the version of Goku that Vegeta was referring to when he said that Jiren used more power against Goku.

Vegeta just noticed that Jiren was slower when he confronted him alone.
When Goku and Vegeta were fighting together, this was not said in any moment. And yet, Vegeta managed to deflect Jiren's blows.

As I said, Jiren probably slowed down after taking Vegeta's first punch because he was scared. Just look at his face when Vegeta is swapping blows with him alone

When Vegeta noticed this, Jiren quickly recovered and dominated Vegeta.
No, Jiren was sandbagging the whole time cause it's the only reason why he hasn't swatted a Goku away who hasn't recovered yet. Vegeta in no way was handling a Jiren going hard ever.
Dyspo knocking away an attack with physical might is a strength feat. Dyspo didn't dodge it with speed. He didn't use anything but strength as he blocked the attack in one spot.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:38 pm

SSR Goku Black also caught SSB Vegeta's fist after the latter had trained himself up and was utterly demolishing him.

Did he suddenly increase his power?

No, no he did not. Not to mention that blocking and reading movements are specifically noted in-universe as important parts to a fight; the former is for reducing damage, and the latter is for avoiding/initiating damage.

The ONLY evidence for Dyspo having increased his strength is his "energy emanating from his body", which is just as easily simply an energy he emits when he initiates his Super Maximum Light Speed Mode. Throughout the ENTIRE fight, Dyspo has only EVER been specifically noted in-universe by himself and other characters to have increased his speed; his speed is his whole gimmick. Him simply upping that to the extreme is the logical conclusion to come to, and very likely one that the writers would've had in mind from a Doylist POV.

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:46 pm

The whole point of putting Dyspo in a cage was to make him a simple matter to Gohan. If he was more powerful than Freeza, he would be able to stomp Gohan regardless..

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:51 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:SSR Goku Black also caught SSB Vegeta's fist after the latter had trained himself up and was utterly demolishing him.

Did he suddenly increase his power?

No, no he did not. Not to mention that blocking and reading movements are specifically noted in-universe as important parts to a fight; the former is for reducing damage, and the latter is for avoiding/initiating damage.

The ONLY evidence for Dyspo having increased his strength is his "energy emanating from his body", which is just as easily simply an energy he emits when he initiates his Super Maximum Light Speed Mode. Throughout the ENTIRE fight, Dyspo has only EVER been specifically noted in-universe by himself and other characters to have increased his speed; his speed is his whole gimmick. Him simply upping that to the extreme is the logical conclusion to come to, and very likely one that the writers would've had in mind from a Doylist POV.
It's a rule in Dragonball when a character powers up OVERALL Ki increases. Cause Ki backs ALL attributes. This is exactly what Dyspo did when energy was emanating from his body. Hence why Golden Freeza's attack was blocked point blank. Dyspo didn't counter by attacking Freeza before his punch, nor did he dodge it but outright SLAPPED his attack away with strength. Something base Dyspo couldn't do before.

Also the Goku Black example wasn't a good one cause Black was on the level of power of Vegeta's even tho he was stronger just like Golden Freeza and Dyspo were around the same level.

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