Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:49 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Hit powers up and doesn’t increase his powerlevel. Also, I don’t see the need to abide to fanmade rules. We have a clear case of a character only increasing his speed and that alone seems enough to justify his performance. Once his movements are restricted he is no big deal to Gohan.
Dyspo had Gohan on the ropes and was about to deliver a finishing blow until some plot kicked in and Gohan grabbed Dyspo fist stating he can't afford to lose. It wasn't a one-sided fight, even tho they took his advantage in movement away. Also, it is not a fanmade rule that Power ups increase overall power. The fanmade rule is trying to turn Dragonball into some type of one type attack specialist and pretending skill can override raw power. Why do you think Goku changed from red to Blue in the instant he attacked to stop Dyspo from blitzing him? Whis even states this approach "maximizes his speed and power!" Why do you think UI Goku needed a power boost even though he has auto dodge to even compete with Jiren?
Same with Hit in episode 39...Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."
You missed the part where Gohan says he will try to lure Dyspo in his trap. And I never said it was an one sided fight, only that Gohan could manage something if they were in equal conditions. It would be one sided if Dyspo was running free. That’s why Gohan’s elimination wasn’t as undermine as it looked in paper.

Power-ups, despite the name, don’t always increase “powerlevel”. That is kind of a generalization. In Hit’s case, his yelling and aura burst only increased the length of “time-skip”. Not once Goku said his attacks were more powerful in that episode, unless the official subs are very off.
Episode 39: Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."

Also, I saw when Gohan said he will lure in Dyspo. He lured him into the cage so he could force Dyspo to not dodge his attacks but fight him in a "straight up brawl." This is based on strength alone, no speed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:58 pm

Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: Dyspo had Gohan on the ropes and was about to deliver a finishing blow until some plot kicked in and Gohan grabbed Dyspo fist stating he can't afford to lose. It wasn't a one-sided fight, even tho they took his advantage in movement away. Also, it is not a fanmade rule that Power ups increase overall power. The fanmade rule is trying to turn Dragonball into some type of one type attack specialist and pretending skill can override raw power. Why do you think Goku changed from red to Blue in the instant he attacked to stop Dyspo from blitzing him? Whis even states this approach "maximizes his speed and power!" Why do you think UI Goku needed a power boost even though he has auto dodge to even compete with Jiren?
Same with Hit in episode 39...Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."
You missed the part where Gohan says he will try to lure Dyspo in his trap. And I never said it was an one sided fight, only that Gohan could manage something if they were in equal conditions. It would be one sided if Dyspo was running free. That’s why Gohan’s elimination wasn’t as undermine as it looked in paper.

Power-ups, despite the name, don’t always increase “powerlevel”. That is kind of a generalization. In Hit’s case, his yelling and aura burst only increased the length of “time-skip”. Not once Goku said his attacks were more powerful in that episode, unless the official subs are very off.
Episode 39: Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."

Also, I saw when Gohan said he will lure in Dyspo. He lured him into the cage so he could force Dyspo to not dodge his attacks but fight him in a "straight up brawl." This is based on strength alone, no speed.
I can’t find this exchange you brought. Could you provide an image from an official source?

I don’t see the issue of comparing Dyspo’s strength with Gohan’s, at all..

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:59 pm

Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: Dyspo had Gohan on the ropes and was about to deliver a finishing blow until some plot kicked in and Gohan grabbed Dyspo fist stating he can't afford to lose. It wasn't a one-sided fight, even tho they took his advantage in movement away. Also, it is not a fanmade rule that Power ups increase overall power. The fanmade rule is trying to turn Dragonball into some type of one type attack specialist and pretending skill can override raw power. Why do you think Goku changed from red to Blue in the instant he attacked to stop Dyspo from blitzing him? Whis even states this approach "maximizes his speed and power!" Why do you think UI Goku needed a power boost even though he has auto dodge to even compete with Jiren?
Same with Hit in episode 39...Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."
You missed the part where Gohan says he will try to lure Dyspo in his trap. And I never said it was an one sided fight, only that Gohan could manage something if they were in equal conditions. It would be one sided if Dyspo was running free. That’s why Gohan’s elimination wasn’t as undermine as it looked in paper.

Power-ups, despite the name, don’t always increase “powerlevel”. That is kind of a generalization. In Hit’s case, his yelling and aura burst only increased the length of “time-skip”. Not once Goku said his attacks were more powerful in that episode, unless the official subs are very off.
Episode 39: Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."

Also, I saw when Gohan said he will lure in Dyspo. He lured him into the cage so he could force Dyspo to not dodge his attacks but fight him in a "straight up brawl." This is based on strength alone, no speed.
Okay........ So why is it based on strength alone? What "proves" it?

Also, notice that Goku said strength "in his attacks" not just his strength. He's adapting to Goku and getting better at landing solid blows in vital areas on him, an easy answer that fits with Hit's established precedence and lack of a noted powerup by the characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:08 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:I can’t find this exchange you brought. Could you provide an image from an official source?

I don’t see the issue of comparing Dyspo’s strength with Gohan’s, at all..
I don't see an issue at all.
BTW, How do I post an image from a video?
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Okay........ So why is it based on strength alone? What "proves" it?

Also, notice that Goku said strength "in his attacks" not just his strength. He's adapting to Goku and getting better at landing solid blows in vital areas on him, an easy answer that fits with Hit's established precedence and lack of a noted powerup by the characters.
Cause Dyspo could NOT use his light speed mode to dodge cause he would hit the bars. Gohan stated it is a straight up fist fight where Dyspo could only block and punch.
You seem to have also missed that Goku stated Hit powered up his strength "AS WELL." Meaning strength wasn't the only thing that got powered up but his overall abilities.
This was the theme between Goku and Hit, one powering up and the other powering up to surpass the others previous level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:24 pm

Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:In fact, the fight between Dyspo and Gohan shows that Dyspo's brute strength is not so great, and he only manages to defeat the enemies because of his speed.

If this "aura" that he emanates increased his strength, why during the fight against Gohan, Dyspo simply deactivated that aura?
For at that moment he could not use his speed

You're just picking up Vegeta's talk on EP 122 at one point, and using it for every other moment in the fight between Vegeta and Jiren as if Jiren was always using less power than in the fight against Goku.
But this only happened in a moment, when vegeta faced him alone.
And when Vegeta himself said that to Jiren, Jiren quickly counterattacks and dominates Vegeta,showing that he was using the same power as before.

And over Jiren's Ki sphere, it clearly did not explode when it was used against Goku, and clearly was not as large as the sphere used in Vegeta.
Using this as an argument does not prove that Goku is stronger than Vegeta.

In fact, he actually was stronger than Vegeta throughout the tournament, but only with the Kaioken and UI. Just with SSB, both are on the same level (maybe Vegeta is stronger with SSB, after all it was said that he awakened a power within him by his pride when he used the Final Flash)
Jiren wasn't fighting as strong against a fatigued Goku, who was weaker than the previous Goku he fought. This proves Vegeta meant back then against Blue/KK Goku, who took more attacks from Jiren before unlike Vegeta. Goku calling this fight against Jiren "ROUND 2!" confirms Vegeta's statement all the more that he meant Jiren and Goku's first bout.

Dyspo didn't deactivate the aura, Gohan knocked him outta of it. Yet before the aura left, Dyspo was still able to overpower Gohan and hit him onto the bars with his strength ALONE.
I'm sorry there is no getting around this. Dyspo PROVED that he is not just speed but strength as well when brawling with Gohan.
Nothing indicates that at the beginning of round 2, Jiren was holding back. Even though Goku had not yet recovered, the only time it is said that Jiren was using less power, it was during the little fight between Vegeta and Jiren alone

Goku having taken more punches from Jiren also does not mean he is stronger.

Against Vegeta, Jiren simply wanted to finalize the fight quickly (and he could have done it with Goku SSB KK also if using the same sphere of Ki), but Vegeta was not defeated.
In fact, even with the various blows that Vegeta received from Jiren, he was only in danger with the Ki sphere. The other attacks do not seem to have caused much damage to him

Dyspo turned off the aura. And Vermoud said that he could not use his speed within the trap of Freeza, showing that his being with the aura does not mean that he was stronger.
Shin also says that in a hand-to-hand fight, Gohan would not lose, showing that Dyspo's power was lower than Gohan's.
Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I can’t find this exchange you brought. Could you provide an image from an official source?

I don’t see the issue of comparing Dyspo’s strength with Gohan’s, at all..
I don't see an issue at all.
BTW, How do I post an image from a video?
Goku says that Hitto had not increased his power.
He thought Hitto would get stronger by raising his Ki and having "screamed", but that did not happen. In fact, he improved the time skip

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:30 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Nothing indicates that at the beginning of round 2, Jiren was holding back. Even though Goku had not yet recovered, the only time it is said that Jiren was using less power, it was during the little fight between Vegeta and Jiren alone

Goku having taken more punches from Jiren also does not mean he is stronger.

Against Vegeta, Jiren simply wanted to finalize the fight quickly (and he could have done it with Goku SSB KK also if using the same sphere of Ki), but Vegeta was not defeated.
In fact, even with the various blows that Vegeta received from Jiren, he was only in danger with the Ki sphere. The other attacks do not seem to have caused much damage to him

Dyspo turned off the aura. And Vermoud said that he could not use his speed within the trap of Freeza, showing that his being with the aura does not mean that he was stronger.
Shin also says that in a hand-to-hand fight, Gohan would not lose, showing that Dyspo's power was lower than Gohan's.

Goku says that Hitto had not increased his power.
He thought Hitto would get stronger by raising his Ki and having "screamed", but that did not happen. In fact, he improved the time skip

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Continue where Hit punches Goku in the gut AFTER stopping him with Time-skip, putting Goku on the floor. Where Goku gets up and states that Hit's strength increased "AS WELL." Proving that Hit's overall abilities powered up.

Dyspo didn't turn off the aura, Gohan knocked him out of it. Dyspo with the aura even Knocked Gohan into the bars. Proving his strength! You got to stop ignoring this.

Nothing indicates that Jiren was holding back? lol, Jiren smashes a former healthy/stronger Blue Goku/ KKx20 and now he can't put down a fatigued Goku? Yet you say there is no indication of Vegeta's statement meaning Jiren was stronger against Goku in round 1? :lolno:
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Low Tone G » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:33 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:Is this article legit and factual? I've missed something, because I think that it contains some real nonsense.
https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-gods ... strongest/
Not really no. It's right in a lot of places I suppose but there's certainly no way that Goku Black and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus.

Chronoa above Super Saiyan God Goku? I doubt that.

It says Champa is the second strongest God of Destruction but nothing has ever said that. Going by the manga it would seem pretty evident that Beerus and Quitela were the two strongest.
And Belmod, he was able to affect all the god with his power, not some gimmick like Rumsshi, and when the dust settled he didn't have a scratch on him. All pretty good signs he's powerful, also smarter then most of the others by not just throwing himself into the fight like a idiot.

I see it as Beerus is the most Skilled Fighter, Quitela is the physically strongest and Belmod is the most cunning and maybe the greatest power in terms of ki.
Yeah, the anime and the manga have Beerus somewhere in the front, but him and especially Champa to be the strongest ones, it's really debatable!
English is not my first language!
I'm still waiting for Dragon Ball in Super...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:12 pm

Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Nothing indicates that at the beginning of round 2, Jiren was holding back. Even though Goku had not yet recovered, the only time it is said that Jiren was using less power, it was during the little fight between Vegeta and Jiren alone

Goku having taken more punches from Jiren also does not mean he is stronger.

Against Vegeta, Jiren simply wanted to finalize the fight quickly (and he could have done it with Goku SSB KK also if using the same sphere of Ki), but Vegeta was not defeated.
In fact, even with the various blows that Vegeta received from Jiren, he was only in danger with the Ki sphere. The other attacks do not seem to have caused much damage to him

Dyspo turned off the aura. And Vermoud said that he could not use his speed within the trap of Freeza, showing that his being with the aura does not mean that he was stronger.
Shin also says that in a hand-to-hand fight, Gohan would not lose, showing that Dyspo's power was lower than Gohan's.

Goku says that Hitto had not increased his power.
He thought Hitto would get stronger by raising his Ki and having "screamed", but that did not happen. In fact, he improved the time skip

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Continue where Hit punches Goku in the gut AFTER stopping him with Time-skip, putting Goku on the floor. Where Goku gets up and states that Hit's strength increased "AS WELL." Proving that Hit's overall abilities powered up.

Dyspo didn't turn off the aura, Gohan knocked him out of it. Dyspo with the aura even Knocked Gohan into the bars. Proving his strength! You got to stop ignoring this.

Nothing indicates that Jiren was holding back? lol, Jiren What the heck pwns a healthy/stronger Blue Goku/ KKx20 and now he can't put down a fatigued Goku? Yet you say there is no indication of Vegeta's statement meaning Jiren was better against Goku in round 1? :lolno:
I do not think you understand my point about the fight against Jiren.

First, it is a fact that Jiren was using less power than in the first round against Goku. But this only happens at the moment that Vegeta alone faces Jiren (after to deviate of his blows for the first time). It's just THAT MOMENT that Vegeta notices it.
When Goku and Vegeta face Jiren together at the beginning of EP 122, (before Vegeta hits Jiren), there is no quote that Jiren was using less power than before.
This just happened when Vegeta faced Jiren alone.

So it does not matter if in the first round Jiren defeated Goku SSB KK x20 easily, this did not mean he will defeat Goku SSB on EP 122 with the same speed. After all, on EP 109, even with all that power, Jiren did not even defeat Goku SSB so quickly, they still traded punches.
He only beat him quickly after Goku used SSB KK.

This does not prove that during the start of the second round, Jiren was using less power than before. Vegeta only noticed this afterwards.

After Hitto hits a punch in the Goku, Vegeta says Hitto's '' scream '' really was meant to boost his power, and Whis says no.
When Goku says that the powered-up hitto punch worked, it was just a way of referring to Hitto after '' growing up ''
And no, Dyspo did not deactivate the aura because of Gohan.

In fact, Gohan defended Dyspo's punch with aura easily, and with a punch pushed him (but Dyspo did not even touch the lasers of Freeza, he deactivated on his own). If this increased his power, he would have his aura active throughout the fight.

But he only tried to activate when Freeza ran out of energy, trying to escape

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:30 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:I do not think you understand my point about the fight against Jiren.

First, it is a fact that Jiren was using less power than in the first round against Goku. But this only happens at the moment that Vegeta alone faces Jiren (after to deviate of his blows for the first time). It's just THAT MOMENT that Vegeta notices it.
When Goku and Vegeta face Jiren together at the beginning of EP 122, (before Vegeta hits Jiren), there is no quote that Jiren was using less power than before.
This just happened when Vegeta faced Jiren alone.


So it does not matter if in the first round Jiren defeated Goku SSB KK x20 easily, this did not mean he will defeat Goku SSB on EP 122 with the same speed. After all, on EP 109, even with all that power, Jiren did not even defeat Goku SSB so quickly, they still traded punches.
He only beat him quickly after Goku used SSB KK.

This does not prove that during the start of the second round, Jiren was using less power than before. Vegeta only noticed this afterwards.

After Hitto hits a punch in the Goku, Vegeta says Hitto's '' scream '' really was meant to boost his power, and Whis says no.
When Goku says that the powered-up hitto punch worked, it was just a way of referring to Hitto after '' growing up ''
And no, Dyspo did not deactivate the aura because of Gohan.

In fact, Gohan defended Dyspo's punch with aura easily, and with a punch pushed him (but Dyspo did not even touch the lasers of Freeza, he deactivated on his own). If this increased his power, he would have his aura active throughout the fight.

But he only tried to activate when Freeza ran out of energy, trying to escape
Dyspo's aura disappears AFTER Gohan hits him. And before that, Dyspo with the aura, overpowered Gohan into the bars. Proving his strength increased as well in a battle of raw might. Why do you ignore this fact?
Hit was blatantly stated to have powered up by Goku. Even confirmed by Vegeta when he stated of Hit "to power up in the middle of a battle is a Saiyan trait."
Also, Vegeta's comment was not for that moment it was for the whole time they fought cause Jiren fought a fatigued Goku alone FIRST before he fought Vegeta. Jiren didn't put that tired Goku down easily. Proving that Jiren was holding back the whole time against them.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:13 am

ZombieVito wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:We do know how Super Saiyan Berseker/Legendary compares to the rest of the forms..

It's way weaker than Super Saiyan God.
weaker yes but not much
Kale was able to put up a decent fight against ssjg goku while her teammate was treated like absolute trash and deflect and energy ball from him though with difficulty
Shes in his tier on the lower end
Maybe but Goku was tired so I really wouldn't put her in the tier.

Goku was also toying with both of them. Just look at his expression while doing the finger beam.
Goku being a tired is a poor excuse there cause even then nothing really indicates in his Ssjg god it Nerf to shit
Kale put up a decent fight while caulifla got fodderise
Even using the tired meme I don't a ssj3 tier trading blows with Ssjg even weakened without smelling an instant L immediately given how Ssjg is on a different level than ssj 1-3
At best 65-70% of his full power as Ssjg

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PushoverMediaCritic » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:34 am

Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:I do not think you understand my point about the fight against Jiren.

First, it is a fact that Jiren was using less power than in the first round against Goku. But this only happens at the moment that Vegeta alone faces Jiren (after to deviate of his blows for the first time). It's just THAT MOMENT that Vegeta notices it.
When Goku and Vegeta face Jiren together at the beginning of EP 122, (before Vegeta hits Jiren), there is no quote that Jiren was using less power than before.
This just happened when Vegeta faced Jiren alone.


So it does not matter if in the first round Jiren defeated Goku SSB KK x20 easily, this did not mean he will defeat Goku SSB on EP 122 with the same speed. After all, on EP 109, even with all that power, Jiren did not even defeat Goku SSB so quickly, they still traded punches.
He only beat him quickly after Goku used SSB KK.

This does not prove that during the start of the second round, Jiren was using less power than before. Vegeta only noticed this afterwards.

After Hitto hits a punch in the Goku, Vegeta says Hitto's '' scream '' really was meant to boost his power, and Whis says no.
When Goku says that the powered-up hitto punch worked, it was just a way of referring to Hitto after '' growing up ''
And no, Dyspo did not deactivate the aura because of Gohan.

In fact, Gohan defended Dyspo's punch with aura easily, and with a punch pushed him (but Dyspo did not even touch the lasers of Freeza, he deactivated on his own). If this increased his power, he would have his aura active throughout the fight.

But he only tried to activate when Freeza ran out of energy, trying to escape
Dyspo's aura disappears AFTER Gohan hits him. And before that, Dyspo with the aura, overpowered Gohan into the bars. Proving his strength increased as well in a battle of raw might. Why do you ignore this fact?
Hit was blatantly stated to have powered up by Goku. Even confirmed by Vegeta when he stated of Hit "to power up in the middle of a battle is a Saiyan trait."
Also, Vegeta's comment was not for that moment it was for the whole time they fought cause Jiren fought a fatigued Goku alone FIRST before he fought Vegeta. Jiren didn't put that tired Goku down easily. Proving that Jiren was holding back the whole time against them.
I don't think you understand how speed works. You seem to be under the impression that it's just movement speed, but it's not. Dyspo was using his speed throughout that fight to attack and defend too. More speed in your punch equals more impact velocity equals a stronger punch. Same with blocking. Several people have already brought up the example of Flash, who's able to land punches at incredible speed dealing incredible damage despite not having enhanced strength. Dyspo was limited from using an aspect of his speed, not all of it entirely, that doesn't make any sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:58 am

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:I don't think you understand how speed works. You seem to be under the impression that it's just movement speed, but it's not. Dyspo was using his speed throughout that fight to attack and defend too. More speed in your punch equals more impact velocity equals a stronger punch. Same with blocking. Several people have already brought up the example of Flash, who's able to land punches at incredible speed dealing incredible damage despite not having enhanced strength. Dyspo was limited from using an aspect of his speed, not all of it entirely, that doesn't make any sense.
Let's understand the canon scenario before we throw more headcannon around. Dyspo's movements are in a straight line [Linear/predictable]. The cage for this very reason narrowed Dyspo's area to move and thus he "couldn't use Hyper speed mode [Belmound]." Piccolo even stated if Gohan didn't cage him, he wouldn't have won without nullifying his speed by stopping him from dodging, allowing Gohan's blows to "always" hit Dyspo. It became a battle of raw power. Naturally, there is speed in their punches but this battle was called a straight out fisticuffs "brawl." No dodging or evading/running just pure strength on body. dyspo took blows and gave some, showing great raw muscle.

BTW did people forget Dyspo also shot Ki blasts? Golden Freeza and Gohan had to dodge those, showing even more evidence that Dyspo's overall power increased. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:25 am

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:No, Goku used x20 during the whole first round with Jiren without mentioning the level and the aura wasn't super big, neither have anything to do with the level of Kaioken he's using. I wasn't referring to 110 UI as the level Kafla had surpassed, I was referring to 115 UI, something that had just happened. Also, again, whole theme of the fight.

Base Goku > SS2 Caulifla (because of skill)
SS2 Caulifla (improved) > Base Goku
SS2 Goku > SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale > SS2 Goku
SS3 Goku > SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale
SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale > SS2 Goku (though I think Goku using SS3 here would've worked better)
SSG Goku > SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale
Kafla > SSG Goku
SSB Goku > Kafla
SS1 Kafla > SSB Goku
SSB KKx20 Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS1 Kafla (full power) > SSB KKx20 Goku
UIO Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS2 Kafla > UIO Goku
UIO Goku (improved) > SS2 Kafla
I already addressed this eariler, to back up What TheSaiyanGod is saying, anytime Goku just says Kaioken(like he did in the fight with kelfa), he's just using normal Kaioken. Even in the battle with Hit, he specifically explains this as after justing saying "kaioken" and using the technquie, he explains he starts off doubling his abilites. Does Goku need to say the kaioken multipler to let us know which level of multiplcation he's using? no
But when he says kaioken, it's expect for him to say x10 or x20 if not at all hence being just normal kaioken. In the Jiren battle it's harder to spot a difference of aura/apperance of x10 or x20 as we never see Goku change we he hanged off the cliff nor we have a speificed momment when he does change. We don't see him change from while in x10 so it's hard to determine anything. But from using normal kaioken to x20 is a massive gap and is just fallcious. It's much easier to argue his aura increasing means he's using x10 as we saw his aura expands from normal kaioken to x10 but agian this could be normal kaioken in x3-4 so i'm bing generous to Kefla here. We see his aura get larger whengoing from x3 to x4 from the Saiyan Saga.

I know what you were talking about but if she surpassed 110 UI Goku then she wouldn't have issues with a more fatguie UI Goku more currently whom needed a lesser and little power up to take her on or ignite her to surpass his former SSBKK acrooding to Gohan and Picoolo. The same Goku was panting after throwing a direct shockwave hit to her stomach which shows he was getting more fatguie at the point and needed to finish it off with a kamekameka. Before you mention it, the only thing the current UI Goku improved in was polish movements not raw power, which dyspo clearly states.

It doesn't make sense for SSJ2 Kefla to surpass Goku as he was still beating her in the fight while needing to power up a little and allowing her to power up more. The Japanese translation suggests it was "a little time ago" not currently. But if you stick with the subtitles it says previous level not current level. It also doesn't make sense as SSBKK Goku overpowered her at SSJ not too long before. In the end, I don't see your subjective view of the fight theme being something to debate with unless you have objective evidence from the context which i mostly care about.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:24 am

Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Goku says that Hitto had not increased his power.
He thought Hitto would get stronger by raising his Ki and having "screamed", but that did not happen. In fact, he improved the time skip

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Continue where Hit punches Goku in the gut AFTER stopping him with Time-skip, putting Goku on the floor. Where Goku gets up and states that Hit's strength increased "AS WELL." Proving that Hit's overall abilities powered up.
Actually, he said “As expected.. His attack after powering up got me real good”. This goes back to what we have been discussing. Powering up in this context doesn’t mean increasing his powerlevel, that’s what Vegeta was wondering and Whis denied. By increasing the length of time-skip, Hit has more time to land a clean heavy blow and by increasing it further he can do this more than once. He pretty much admitted he can’t power up, but he could still advance in this aspect.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:52 am

Miracles wrote:
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:I don't think you understand how speed works. You seem to be under the impression that it's just movement speed, but it's not. Dyspo was using his speed throughout that fight to attack and defend too. More speed in your punch equals more impact velocity equals a stronger punch. Same with blocking. Several people have already brought up the example of Flash, who's able to land punches at incredible speed dealing incredible damage despite not having enhanced strength. Dyspo was limited from using an aspect of his speed, not all of it entirely, that doesn't make any sense.
Let's understand the canon scenario before we throw more headcannon around. Dyspo's movements are in a straight line [Linear/predictable]. The cage for this very reason narrowed Dyspo's area to move and thus he "couldn't use Hyper speed mode [Belmound]." Piccolo even stated if Gohan didn't cage him, he wouldn't have won without nullifying his speed by stopping him from dodging, allowing Gohan's blows to "always" hit Dyspo. It became a battle of raw power. Naturally, there is speed in their punches but this battle was called a straight out fisticuffs "brawl." No dodging or evading/running just pure strength on body. dyspo took blows and gave some, showing great raw muscle.

BTW did people forget Dyspo also shot Ki blasts? Golden Freeza and Gohan had to dodge those, showing even more evidence that Dyspo's overall power increased. :lol:
And did YOU forget that Dyspo was throwing super speed flurries beforehand, literally in the exact same episode? His speed isn't only limited to straight rushes, that's just when he can perform at his fastest, which we see him do beforehand; he moves extraordinarily fast even without linear rushes because he has room to maneuver, especially when trading blows. This is why he was pressuring True Golden Freeza, because he had room to dance circles around him and land super speed flurries.

In a straight brawl, it doesn't come down to mere strength, but fighting skill and movement analysis, as we see when base Goku takes on SS2 Caulifla; she was stronger AND faster, but he read her movements better and could match and even overtake her despite the difference. Unless you're one of those people that somehow believes that base Goku is way above Caulifla in equivalent forms (which is utterly stupid, I might add), this alone shows it's not just some brawl of power. But wait, there's more! Roshi did the same thing against Ganos, whom needed to power himself up more just to keep up and overtake the weaker and slower Roshi; Jiren does the same, powering up to counter his opponents' skill, in his more recent fights with Goku and Vegeta despite them not powering up themselves. This is because they're pressuring him with their movements and CQC skills.

With his wide movements restricted, Dyspo couldn't perform rushes or dodge attacks easily, so he could only try to do super speed flurries at regular speeds. Also, you fail to mention that Dyspo only ever caught Gohan once, whilst Gohan continually managed to gain the upperhand on the super speed warrior.

Also, with regards to Ki blasts, characters dodge or deflect these things all the time, because taking hits is bad unless you intend on taking knowing they won't doing anything, as seen with Gohan's fight against Obuni. The Universe 7 team's spectators weren't worried that Obuni was Ultimate Gohan's match in power; they were worried because Gohan was letting himself take Obuni's hits in a gambit to pin down his movements. Many other examples of this more mechanically-oriented style of martial arts combat exist throughout this tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:12 pm

If Base Kefla can blitz Super Saiyan God Goku then does she possess speed comparable to Dyspo?

Would that mean in terms of power level that Base Kefla would also be above Hit?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:08 pm

Bullza wrote:If Base Kefla can blitz Super Saiyan God Goku then does she possess speed comparable to Dyspo?

Would that mean in terms of power level that Base Kefla would also be above Hit?
In the manga sure, but in the anime, I would only really say Kefla surpassed Hit in terms of pure power when she went SS.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:09 pm

Everyone, get ready to bump vegeta into the tier of the hakaishins, cause according to spoilers, it will happen, and jiren is still far from going full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:13 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Actually, he said “As expected.. His attack after powering up got me real good”. This goes back to what we have been discussing. Powering up in this context doesn’t mean increasing his powerlevel, that’s what Vegeta was wondering and Whis denied. By increasing the length of time-skip, Hit has more time to land a clean heavy blow and by increasing it further he can do this more than once. He pretty much admitted he can’t power up, but he could still advance in this aspect.
Wow, None of this is canon at all. Not even the dialogue you posted. All original subs clearly has Goku state that Hit powered up and so did his strength. Hit only confirms that he can't power up BY "TRANSFORMING" like the Saiyains. But indeed his power up just simply improves his abilities. Even Vegeta later confirmed Hit powered up by stating "Only Saiyans have that trait, to power up in the middle of battle" and it made him mad that someone like Hit can do it as well. To say that Dragonball power ups don't increase overall power is a complete fan REWRITE of the entire series battle mechanics. This isn't DC, Marvel, Naruto or Pokemon.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And did YOU forget that Dyspo was throwing super speed flurries beforehand, literally in the exact same episode? His speed isn't only limited to straight rushes, that's just when he can perform at his fastest, which we see him do beforehand; he moves extraordinarily fast even without linear rushes because he has room to maneuver, especially when trading blows. This is why he was pressuring True Golden Freeza, because he had room to dance circles around him and land super speed flurries.

In a straight brawl, it doesn't come down to mere strength, but fighting skill and movement analysis, as we see when base Goku takes on SS2 Caulifla; she was stronger AND faster, but he read her movements better and could match and even overtake her despite the difference. Unless you're one of those people that somehow believes that base Goku is way above Caulifla in equivalent forms (which is utterly stupid, I might add), this alone shows it's not just some brawl of power. But wait, there's more! Roshi did the same thing against Ganos, whom needed to power himself up more just to keep up and overtake the weaker and slower Roshi; Jiren does the same, powering up to counter his opponents' skill, in his more recent fights with Goku and Vegeta despite them not powering up themselves. This is because they're pressuring him with their movements and CQC skills.

With his wide movements restricted, Dyspo couldn't perform rushes or dodge attacks easily, so he could only try to do super speed flurries at regular speeds. Also, you fail to mention that Dyspo only ever caught Gohan once, whilst Gohan continually managed to gain the upperhand on the super speed warrior.

Also, with regards to Ki blasts, characters dodge or deflect these things all the time, because taking hits is bad unless you intend on taking knowing they won't doing anything, as seen with Gohan's fight against Obuni. The Universe 7 team's spectators weren't worried that Obuni was Ultimate Gohan's match in power; they were worried because Gohan was letting himself take Obuni's hits in a gambit to pin down his movements. Many other examples of this more mechanically-oriented style of martial arts combat exist throughout this tournament.
That's right, taking hits from Ki blasts is bad "unless you know they won't do anything." So Gohan and Freeza knew that Dyspo's Ki blast would do damage hence why they dodged it. Showing Dyspo's overall power increased again. And yes, Dyspo can flurry around with attacks but that is only OUT of the cage Gohan put him in. Dyspo could do none of that when in the cage cause Dyspo could "NOT use light speed mode![Belmound]" This again proves Dyspo's overall powerrs increased cause even without light-speed mode he was trading blows. Dyspo had no choice but to TANK attacks and out muscle Gohan in the cage. Piccolo stated that Trapping Dyspo in the bars ensures All Gohan's attacks would hit. Despite this Dyspo was still confident that he would win. Ensuring that Gohan couldn't escape either in a straight up fist fight with no dodging!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:01 pm

Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Actually, he said “As expected.. His attack after powering up got me real good”. This goes back to what we have been discussing. Powering up in this context doesn’t mean increasing his powerlevel, that’s what Vegeta was wondering and Whis denied. By increasing the length of time-skip, Hit has more time to land a clean heavy blow and by increasing it further he can do this more than once. He pretty much admitted he can’t power up, but he could still advance in this aspect.
Wow, None of this is canon at all. Not even the dialogue you posted. All original subs clearly has Goku state that Hit powered up and so did his strength. Hit only confirms that he can't power up BY "TRANSFORMING" like the Saiyains. But indeed his power up just simply improves his abilities. Even Vegeta later confirmed Hit powered up by stating "Only Saiyans have that trait, to power up in the middle of battle" and it made him mad that someone like Hit can do it as well. To say that Dragonball power ups don't increase overall power is a complete fan REWRITE of the entire series battle mechanics. This isn't DC, Marvel, Naruto or Pokemon.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And did YOU forget that Dyspo was throwing super speed flurries beforehand, literally in the exact same episode? His speed isn't only limited to straight rushes, that's just when he can perform at his fastest, which we see him do beforehand; he moves extraordinarily fast even without linear rushes because he has room to maneuver, especially when trading blows. This is why he was pressuring True Golden Freeza, because he had room to dance circles around him and land super speed flurries.

In a straight brawl, it doesn't come down to mere strength, but fighting skill and movement analysis, as we see when base Goku takes on SS2 Caulifla; she was stronger AND faster, but he read her movements better and could match and even overtake her despite the difference. Unless you're one of those people that somehow believes that base Goku is way above Caulifla in equivalent forms (which is utterly stupid, I might add), this alone shows it's not just some brawl of power. But wait, there's more! Roshi did the same thing against Ganos, whom needed to power himself up more just to keep up and overtake the weaker and slower Roshi; Jiren does the same, powering up to counter his opponents' skill, in his more recent fights with Goku and Vegeta despite them not powering up themselves. This is because they're pressuring him with their movements and CQC skills.

With his wide movements restricted, Dyspo couldn't perform rushes or dodge attacks easily, so he could only try to do super speed flurries at regular speeds. Also, you fail to mention that Dyspo only ever caught Gohan once, whilst Gohan continually managed to gain the upperhand on the super speed warrior.

Also, with regards to Ki blasts, characters dodge or deflect these things all the time, because taking hits is bad unless you intend on taking knowing they won't doing anything, as seen with Gohan's fight against Obuni. The Universe 7 team's spectators weren't worried that Obuni was Ultimate Gohan's match in power; they were worried because Gohan was letting himself take Obuni's hits in a gambit to pin down his movements. Many other examples of this more mechanically-oriented style of martial arts combat exist throughout this tournament.
That's right, taking hits from Ki blasts is bad "unless you know they won't do anything." So Gohan and Freeza knew that Dyspo's Ki blast would do damage hence why they dodged it. Showing Dyspo's overall power increased again. And yes, Dyspo can flurry around with attacks but that is only OUT of the cage Gohan put him in. Dyspo could do none of that when in the cage cause Dyspo could "NOT use light speed mode![Belmound]" This again proves Dyspo's overall powerrs increased cause even without light-speed mode he was trading blows. Dyspo had no choice but to TANK attacks and out muscle Gohan in the cage. Piccolo stated that Trapping Dyspo in the bars ensures All Gohan's attacks would hit. Despite this Dyspo was still confident that he would win. Ensuring that Gohan couldn't escape either in a straight up fist fight with no dodging!
With the Hit example, I just checked once again. Hit powered up his Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds, an improvement on his abilities rather than simply screaming his strength up. Goku merely said that, after doing this, Hit landed a good blow that nearly took him out. Nothing ever points to his actual power going up; no statements, nothing. In fact, all evidence points to his powered up abilities allowing him to hang on in the fight; Goku only manages to keep up by powering himself up overall with the Kaio-ken, much like Jiren has to in his recent fights against Goku and Vegeta despite easily taking them on with greater suppression earlier.

Also, again, no statements or indications regarding Dyspo's strength increasing, EXACTLY LIKE WITH HIT. Only his other abilities, his SPEED, is ever noted. Only his speed is ever taken into account. Only his speed is what's specifically countered in Gohan's strategy. When Dyspo improves his abilities like Hit, he does better despite no noted increases in strength. We have precedence for this, AND NOT for your argument. We have explicit statements from the characters themselves. And this explicit evidence doesn't support your argument. That's not to say that your interpretation isn't possible, just the less likely of the whole debate.

Tell me, from a writing standpoint....... what makes more sense? That the characters commented on Hit and Dyspo improving their abilities which allowed them to pressure our heroes? Or that they increased their strength and that NOBODY comments on this fact and they only focus on their improved abilities and act like it's what allows them to pressure our heroes even though it's really not and just that they increased their strength?

If we go by your interpretation, the impact of improved abilities loses all meaning because it boils down to power. What's the point of playing up the importance of varied abilities if it all just comes down to power? There is none, and the series might as well never bother trying to vary up the stale combat formula of "bigger number = automatic win".

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