Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:So do final form Frieza's new feats against Toppo and Jiren prove he is way above base level. I mean even ssj Goku couldn't make a suppressed Jiren budge but Frieza landed a solid hit and forced a more powered up Jiren to dodge and fight back.
Well, we see that Jiren is actually bothering to match and block base Vegeta's blows even though he's pretty beat up in the NEP.

I'd say it's just the martial artist's way of always treating your opponent as a threat by blocking and exchanging blows. You basically show disrespect when you simply tank an attack, which I think fits a lot with how fights have gone in the tournament thus far.

Freeza went True Golden to simply tank SS2 Cabba's blast because he hates Saiyans and gets the chance to play around with him, Jiren didn't really bother with Goku until he went SSG, and Jiren let himself take SSB Vegeta's blows at first despite bothering to trade blows with SSB Goku earlier.

Sure, these guys often don't NEED to match their opponents' movements if they're that much stronger, but why take the risk and leave yourself vulnerable when your own power is dwarfed? At least if you exchange blows and treat things like a real fight, you'll be in a better position to take on opponents stronger than yourself and are generally less open.
That's true, though Frieza did freeze GoD Toppo for a bit and stopped his ki attacks with his own, plus he matched Dyspo's speed. Goku and Vegeta are hard to compare to others because their power is so inconsistent, but I would say final form Frieza is above ssj2 Caulifla and below mystic Gohan. Probably around the U6 namekian/controlled berserk Kale range imo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:10 am

Rally 07 wrote:Plus this episode sorta solidified and supported the fact that Artificial Human no.17 is indeed God level, and is rivaling Super Saiyan Blues in power. So the redundant downplay claiming No.17 isn't God level should maybe, just stop.

But nevertheless No.17, along with Freeza, Gokou, and Vegeta got demolished by Jiren. But I do find it really impressive that No.17 inflicted some damage to Jiren. In fact, he not only damaged Jiren, but a more powered up, less suppressed Jiren. It's probably more damage done to Jiren than Ultra Instinct Gokou, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, and Hit inflicted upon Jiren. Considering the fact that Jiren took a point-blank, probably unavoidable blast from someone who can charge up as much energy into the attack as need without any drain or limit.
17 is definitely not at the SSB level

He was not even capable of causing any relevant damage to base Toppo. In fact he still tried to hold him until the tournament ended, precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
17 and Gohan together could not beat him

While Goku and Vegeta SSB were able to give a good fight and were even to advantage.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:17 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Rally 07 wrote:Plus this episode sorta solidified and supported the fact that Artificial Human no.17 is indeed God level, and is rivaling Super Saiyan Blues in power. So the redundant downplay claiming No.17 isn't God level should maybe, just stop.

But nevertheless No.17, along with Freeza, Gokou, and Vegeta got demolished by Jiren. But I do find it really impressive that No.17 inflicted some damage to Jiren. In fact, he not only damaged Jiren, but a more powered up, less suppressed Jiren. It's probably more damage done to Jiren than Ultra Instinct Gokou, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, and Hit inflicted upon Jiren. Considering the fact that Jiren took a point-blank, probably unavoidable blast from someone who can charge up as much energy into the attack as need without any drain or limit.
17 is definitely not at the SSB level

He was not even capable of causing any relevant damage to base Toppo. In fact he still tried to hold him until the tournament ended, precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
17 and Gohan together could not beat him

While Goku and Vegeta SSB were able to give a good fight and were even to advantage.
Toppo too wasn't able to damage him, it's irrelevant because the fight was too short and non of them had any chance of inflicting serious damage.

17 is definitely Blue level, low tier Blue but still in that level. he damaged Jiren even if it's just a scratch, he somewhat matched a full power blast from base Toppo, and when Frieza joined it was overkill.
He easily keeps up with thise Blue and above tier characters, his limitless energy and barrier carry him even further.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Freeza9000 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:32 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Rally 07 wrote:Plus this episode sorta solidified and supported the fact that Artificial Human no.17 is indeed God level, and is rivaling Super Saiyan Blues in power. So the redundant downplay claiming No.17 isn't God level should maybe, just stop.

But nevertheless No.17, along with Freeza, Gokou, and Vegeta got demolished by Jiren. But I do find it really impressive that No.17 inflicted some damage to Jiren. In fact, he not only damaged Jiren, but a more powered up, less suppressed Jiren. It's probably more damage done to Jiren than Ultra Instinct Gokou, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, and Hit inflicted upon Jiren. Considering the fact that Jiren took a point-blank, probably unavoidable blast from someone who can charge up as much energy into the attack as need without any drain or limit.
17 is definitely not at the SSB level

He was not even capable of causing any relevant damage to base Toppo. In fact he still tried to hold him until the tournament ended, precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
17 and Gohan together could not beat him

While Goku and Vegeta SSB were able to give a good fight and were even to advantage.
Maybe not exactly at the same plateau of power as SSJB Goku/Vegeta or Golden Freeza, but he isn't so horrendously behind.

Even against someone as strong as Toppo (before Hakaishin), he was still able to somewhat hold his own against him in a beam-o-war and at one point pushed Toppo backwards with a barrage of ki blasts. His barrier could sustain one of Toppo's most powerful attacks. Couple all of that with his never ending stamina and tactics.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:43 am

I think it should be seen this way.
Much like Merged Zamasu, 17's strenght in different in the manga and the anime.
Manga: somewhat around Goku SSJ3, perhaps higher.
Anime: somewhat below SSB, perhaps between SSG and SSB.
I don't think he rivals SSB in power, but, like Gohan, he's definitely between SSG and SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 am

[quote="TheSaiyanGod"]
17 is definitely not at the SSB level

Oh hold my beer! Because it's quite apparent that No.17 is very well Blue level solely because he's taking on characters such as Toppo and Jiren whom are rivaling the Hakaishins with Jiren probably already surpassing that level in his suppressed state. If he weren't Blue level, he would've been out a long time ago dude. I mean c'mon, why would No.17 stand any sort of chance against these characters if he weren't Blue level, it makes zero sense.
Last edited by Rally 07 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:12 am

Freeza9000 wrote:
While Goku and Vegeta SSB were able to give a good fight and were even to advantage.
Maybe not exactly at the same plateau of power as SSJB Goku/Vegeta or Golden Freeza, but he isn't so horrendously behind.


I agree. Claiming No.17 isn't at least rivaling Super Saiyan Blue is completely wrongful to say since it's very obvious and apparent in the series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:24 am

wolflonnie wrote:I think it should be seen this way.
Much like Merged Zamasu, 17's strenght in different in the manga and the anime.
Manga: somewhat around Goku SSJ3, perhaps higher.
Anime: somewhat below SSB, perhaps between SSG and SSB.
I don't think he rivals SSB in power, but, like Gohan, he's definitely between SSG and SSB.
Well honestly, you can't really argue that Gohan or No.17 aren't at least rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. Mainly because Gokou never decided to transform into Super Saiyan God against them if they both were only around that level. He transformed Blue against No.17 and decided to skip God and went for Blue. Not to mention he was forced to transform. Gohan, you could argue he isn't Blue level honestly, but I already argued that. But regardless they both rival Super Saiyan Blue. Plus they were taking on the Universe 11 warriors whom are likely Blue level and beyond. Then there's the fact the Super is probably solidifying the fact the No.17 is Blue level because he's taking on characters such as Jiren. So much so that No.17 actually done some damage to Jiren. Regardless if it's even a scratch or not, he did some sort of damage. Keep in mind, the is a less suppressed Jiren that No.17 damaged.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 am

Hadn´t golden freeza come along to help 17, the later would´ve already been dropped out by base toppo, who is on par with ssb vegeta, the combined blast from golden freeza and 17 is what wore base toppo out, not 17´s blast alone, so to me 17 stands at ssg level, but not definitely blue level. 17 being around ssj3 goku tier in the manga supports the idea that toriyama wants him to stand not at blue level.
I do think that, his barrier technique,limitless stamina and android ki allow him to hold his own against much more powerfull foes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:23 am

Freezerbaby wrote:Hadn´t golden freeza come along to help 17, the later would´ve already been dropped out by base toppo, who is on par with ssb vegeta, the combined blast from golden freeza and 17 is what wore base toppo out, not 17´s blast alone, so to me 17 stands at ssg level, but not definitely blue level. 17 being around ssj3 goku tier in the manga supports the idea that toriyama wants him to stand not at blue level.
I do think that, his barrier technique,limitless stamina and android ki allow him to hold his own against much more powerfull foes.
But keep in mind, No.17 was fighting against a full powered up Base form Toppo. Plus it wouldn't make any sense how No.17 is holding his own if he were only comparable to Super Saiyan God. No.17 is indeed Blue level as he's fighting someone who pushed Gokou to use Kaioken w/Super Saiyan Blue without even using his full power. And with Base form Toppo at full power, and No.17 being very capable of holding his own against Toppo, there's no doubt that No.17 is Blue level without question if he's fighting against a character who can push Gokou to use Kaioken.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:33 am

[quote="Freezerbaby"]
17 being around ssj3 goku tier in the manga supports the idea that toriyama wants him to stand not at blue level.

Plus you likely know nothing of what Toriyama's notes are. Nobody knows other than the writers at Toei. Toriyama is probably the one who wanted No.17 as powerful as he is in the anime. He does give Toei writers a basic manuscript of what he wants in the anime. Plus Toyotaru writes the manga and decided to nerf No.17's power on his own. Probably because of angry fans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:45 am

How about we all agree that EVERYONE is strong?

Except Yamcha. Because what ABOUT Yamcha? :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:49 am

Amir wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Rally 07 wrote:Plus this episode sorta solidified and supported the fact that Artificial Human no.17 is indeed God level, and is rivaling Super Saiyan Blues in power. So the redundant downplay claiming No.17 isn't God level should maybe, just stop.

But nevertheless No.17, along with Freeza, Gokou, and Vegeta got demolished by Jiren. But I do find it really impressive that No.17 inflicted some damage to Jiren. In fact, he not only damaged Jiren, but a more powered up, less suppressed Jiren. It's probably more damage done to Jiren than Ultra Instinct Gokou, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, and Hit inflicted upon Jiren. Considering the fact that Jiren took a point-blank, probably unavoidable blast from someone who can charge up as much energy into the attack as need without any drain or limit.
17 is definitely not at the SSB level

He was not even capable of causing any relevant damage to base Toppo. In fact he still tried to hold him until the tournament ended, precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
17 and Gohan together could not beat him

While Goku and Vegeta SSB were able to give a good fight and were even to advantage.
Toppo too wasn't able to damage him, it's irrelevant because the fight was too short and non of them had any chance of inflicting serious damage.

17 is definitely Blue level, low tier Blue but still in that level. he damaged Jiren even if it's just a scratch, he somewhat matched a full power blast from base Toppo, and when Frieza joined it was overkill.
He easily keeps up with thise Blue and above tier characters, his limitless energy and barrier carry him even further.
Toppo was not able to damage because 17 was running all the time and using his barrier.
But 17 never entered a body-to-body combat, showing that he was inferior.

When Toppo used all his power on EP 125 (before Hakaishin), 17 did not use his barrier and had to counter with an energy attack, and he would have been defeated if Freeza had not been there

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:53 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Amir wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
17 is definitely not at the SSB level

He was not even capable of causing any relevant damage to base Toppo. In fact he still tried to hold him until the tournament ended, precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
17 and Gohan together could not beat him

While Goku and Vegeta SSB were able to give a good fight and were even to advantage.
Toppo too wasn't able to damage him, it's irrelevant because the fight was too short and non of them had any chance of inflicting serious damage.

17 is definitely Blue level, low tier Blue but still in that level. he damaged Jiren even if it's just a scratch, he somewhat matched a full power blast from base Toppo, and when Frieza joined it was overkill.
He easily keeps up with thise Blue and above tier characters, his limitless energy and barrier carry him even further.
Toppo was not able to damage because 17 was running all the time and using his barrier.
But 17 never entered a body-to-body combat, showing that he was inferior.

When Toppo used all his power on EP 125 (before Hakaishin), 17 did not use his barrier and had to counter with an energy attack, and he would have been defeated if Freeza had not been there
I never said 17 was full power Blue level, but he is close. Toppo wasn't dominating him, 17 still held his own. He is low tier Blue level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:27 am

Amir wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Amir wrote:
Toppo too wasn't able to damage him, it's irrelevant because the fight was too short and non of them had any chance of inflicting serious damage.

17 is definitely Blue level, low tier Blue but still in that level. he damaged Jiren even if it's just a scratch, he somewhat matched a full power blast from base Toppo, and when Frieza joined it was overkill.
He easily keeps up with thise Blue and above tier characters, his limitless energy and barrier carry him even further.
Toppo was not able to damage because 17 was running all the time and using his barrier.
But 17 never entered a body-to-body combat, showing that he was inferior.

When Toppo used all his power on EP 125 (before Hakaishin), 17 did not use his barrier and had to counter with an energy attack, and he would have been defeated if Freeza had not been there
I never said 17 was full power Blue level, but he is close. Toppo wasn't dominating him, 17 still held his own. He is low tier Blue level.
So you think there's such a huge power difference between SSB (RoF) and SSB (ToP)?

Because according to you, 17 would be low SSB tier (which would be the SSB of the Resurrection of F I think), but it is not even capable of causing any kind of damage to Toppo. He does not even get a heads-up fight.

So it would be the same as saying that SSB (RoF) would not even be able to give Toppo a good fight

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:29 pm

The fact that many people in the fandom say that 17 is stronger than Kefla and that base Vegeta is stronger than Golden Frieza (also, suppressed Jiren seems more stronger than full power Jiren :lol: ) this just show how much anime power levels are trash :)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:24 pm

I think it goes like this.

Super Saiyan Blue High Tier - SSB Goku and Vegeta, Golden Frieza, Toppo

Super Saiyan Blue Mid Tier - SSR Black, SSI Trunks, Ultimate Gohan, Android 17, Golden Frieza (RoF Saga)

Super Saiyan Blue Low Tier - Hit, Base Kefla, Pirina, Saonel, Koichiarator, SSB Goku and Vegeta (RoF/U6 Saga)

Or that general idea.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by majinwarman » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:31 pm

Bullza wrote:I think it goes like this.

Super Saiyan Blue High Tier - SSB Goku and Vegeta, Golden Frieza, Toppo

Super Saiyan Blue Mid Tier - SSR Black, SSI Trunks, Ultimate Gohan, Android 17, Golden Frieza (RoF Saga)

Super Saiyan Blue Low Tier - Hit, Base Kefla, Pirina, Saonel, Koichiarator, SSB Goku and Vegeta (RoF/U6 Saga)

Or that general idea.
That is a good list and I agree with it. Though I do wonder where does Dsypo land on your tier.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:39 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Amir wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Toppo was not able to damage because 17 was running all the time and using his barrier.
But 17 never entered a body-to-body combat, showing that he was inferior.

When Toppo used all his power on EP 125 (before Hakaishin), 17 did not use his barrier and had to counter with an energy attack, and he would have been defeated if Freeza had not been there
I never said 17 was full power Blue level, but he is close. Toppo wasn't dominating him, 17 still held his own. He is low tier Blue level.
So you think there's such a huge power difference between SSB (RoF) and SSB (ToP)?

Because according to you, 17 would be low SSB tier (which would be the SSB of the Resurrection of F I think), but it is not even capable of causing any kind of damage to Toppo. He does not even get a heads-up fight.

So it would be the same as saying that SSB (RoF) would not even be able to give Toppo a good fight
Exactly. TOP SSJB is way above ROF SSJB. There are countless evidences to confirm that. Also 17 is stronger than ROF SSJB.

Also I have no idea why you keep saying 17 wasn't able to damage Toppo. When he blasted him with the ki blast spam, his intention was to keep him busy because he knew he would lose in a head on fight. But that doesn't mean 17's attacks aren't strong enough to damage Toppo. The fact that Toppo had to focus everything on the beam struggle to the point it left him completely opened to attacks, and even after being attacked by Frieza in the back he still chose to keep both hands on the beam struggle is a proof that 17's power is close to that of Toppo and it's enough to damage him.
The fact 17 managed to hold off Toppo's full power blast also confirms his power level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by gofishus » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:13 pm

I don't think 17 on a pure power level is close to Toppo, but is able to beat him due to being a very smart fighter, using barrier tricks etc

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