Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Yes, you proved my point. He said state, not belmod. And we already know from the manga that all hakaishins are relative to each other.
But I’m going to be playing the skipic like I said, and wait for 130, and see if there is any direct confirmation (something that Super has lacked since 110) (tho 129 vegeta brought up that goku needs to surpass the state of te gods)

Btw, answer me this question in all honesty. Do you believe belmod is the weakest god? Because when people say that he was stated beyond just belmod, I always assume they think all other 11 are beyond jiren (which is strange, but I wouldn’t consider it ludicrous)

I don't know if Belmound is the weakest but he may be lower tier. Since he is stated to be the only god that let a mortal surpass him. We know for a fact Beerus and Quitela are above everybody as the manga has shown.

The manga has shown everygod fighting relative to each other. Belmod was able to injure all hakaishins with his power, and tanked liquiir with zero damage. Rumshee could paralyze all gods of destruction in place and run amuck them. Heles could pierce the body of a hakaishin, Sidras barrier easily capable of stoping a blast from beerus meant for 4 hakaishins. Mosco was fighting heles and liquiir at the same time. Every single hakaishin was shown with power to injure another. What the manga told me was that dividing the Gods in tiers is a horrible idea, as all should be very close. And a battle royal won’t always have the same results, it’s a battle royal after all.

Also, I’m not sure how a mortal surpassing him degrades belmod, it just means that a mortal has reached such level of power. He isn’t the first to be there, SSB Vegito was stated to be at beerus level. It just seems exceptionally rare for any mortal to reach that level.

I did not take a side on where belmod stands, because all gods should stand the same. Hakaishin toppo was also stated no different than a god, but he was a brand new god, so he is inexperienced at hakaishin power.

[Miracles]

Yes, you proved my point. He said state, not belmod. And we already know from the manga that all hakaishins are relative to each other.
But I’m going to be playing the skipic like I said, and wait for 130, and see if there is any direct confirmation (something that Super has lacked since 110) (tho 129 vegeta brought up that goku needs to surpass the state of te gods)

Btw, answer me this question in all honesty. Do you believe belmod is the weakest god? Because when people say that he was stated beyond just belmod, I always assume they think all other 11 are beyond jiren (which is strange, but I wouldn’t consider it ludicrous)

I don't know if Belmound is the weakest but he may be lower tier. Since he is stated to be the only god that let a mortal surpass him. We know for a fact Beerus and Quitela are above everybody as the manga has shown.

The manga has shown everygod fighting relative to each other. Belmod was able to injure all hakaishins with his power, and tanked liquiir with zero damage. Rumshee could paralyze all gods of destruction in place and run amuck them. Heles could pierce the body of a hakaishin, Sidras barrier easily capable of stoping a blast from beerus meant for 4 hakaishins. Mosco was fighting heles and liquiir at the same time. Every single hakaishin was shown with power to injure another. What the manga told me was that dividing the Gods in tiers is a horrible idea, as all should be very close. And a battle royal won’t always have the same results, it’s a battle royal after all.

Also, I’m not sure how a mortal surpassing him degrades belmod, it just means that a mortal has reached such level of power. He isn’t the first to be there, SSB Vegito was stated to be at beerus level. It just seems exceptionally rare for any mortal to reach that level.

I did not take a side on where belmod stands, because all gods should stand the same. Hakaishin toppo was also stated no different than a god, but he was a brand new god, so he is inexperienced at hakaishin power.

I understand and what you are saying is perfectly logical. However in all those feats you mentioned Beerus display stands above them all. He was dodging everyone, decked Champa without EVERYONE noticing [who is outta shape], Broke the hold of that robot god, KO'd that Elephant god and Quitela is said to rival Beerus. They both were determined to see who is the strongest god and Quitela knew it would come down to both at the end, as stated. So Beerus and Quitela are the strongest and the others have to be sorted out.

[brett wheeler]

I don't know if Belmound is the weakest but he may be lower tier. Since he is stated to be the only god that let a mortal surpass him. We know for a fact Beerus and Quitela are above everybody as the manga has shown.

The manga has shown everygod fighting relative to each other. Belmod was able to injure all hakaishins with his power, and tanked liquiir with zero damage. Rumshee could paralyze all gods of destruction in place and run amuck them. Heles could pierce the body of a hakaishin, Sidras barrier easily capable of stoping a blast from beerus meant for 4 hakaishins. Mosco was fighting heles and liquiir at the same time. Every single hakaishin was shown with power to injure another. What the manga told me was that dividing the Gods in tiers is a horrible idea, as all should be very close. And a battle royal won’t always have the same results, it’s a battle royal after all.

Also, I’m not sure how a mortal surpassing him degrades belmod, it just means that a mortal has reached such level of power. He isn’t the first to be there, SSB Vegito was stated to be at beerus level. It just seems exceptionally rare for any mortal to reach that level.

I did not take a side on where belmod stands, because all gods should stand the same. Hakaishin toppo was also stated no different than a god, but he was a brand new god, so he is inexperienced at hakaishin power.

I understand and what you are saying is perfectly logical. However in all those feats you mentioned Beerus display stands above them all. He was dodging everyone, decked Champa without EVERYONE noticing [who is outta shape], Broke the hold of that robot god, KO'd that Elephant god and Quitela is said to rival Beerus. They both were determined to see who is the strongest god and Quitela knew it would come down to both at the end, as stated. So Beerus and Quitela are the strongest and the others have to be sorted out.

well beerus and quitela are probably above the rest, but by the the display in the battle royal we can assume that gap isnt huge ( probably like 20% most ), witch begs the question how lazy are the other GoDs considering beerus sleeps and eats all the time and is still slightly above them.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Guys guys guys...... I just realized why the Hakaishin are so much stronger than everything else we've seen up until this point.

They're all SHIRTLESS! You saw how Goku and Jiren need to lose the shirts to be above them all! THAT'S THEIR SECRET!

That means that the true path to power is going topless!

[Kenneth La Torre]

Guys guys guys...... I just realized why the Hakaishin are so much stronger than everything else we've seen up until this point.

They're all SHIRTLESS! You saw how Goku and Jiren need to lose the shirts to be above them all! THAT'S THEIR SECRET!

That means that the true path to power is going topless!

Damn, I guess they knew about the shirtless secret way before goku. Now imagine the shirtless angels, that would be OP as hell. Shirtless vados for the way

[Nevaeh]

I bet if Dragon Ball Super had kept on airing that it wouldn't have take long before Mastered Ultra Instinct became nothing special and it was losing battles left and right. Same with Jiren.

I remember saying how strong they thought Super Saiyan Rose Black was when he debuted and he ain't worth diddly squat anymore.

That's true of every form. Ultra Instinct will get fodderized to sell the next villain

As for UI Goku vs Beerus. A part of me hopes Toei/Toriyama crush the fandom's expectations and reveal Goku is only on par with Beerus

[Kenneth La Torre]

I bet if Dragon Ball Super had kept on airing that it wouldn't have take long before Mastered Ultra Instinct became nothing special and it was losing battles left and right. Same with Jiren.

I remember saying how strong they thought Super Saiyan Rose Black was when he debuted and he ain't worth diddly squat anymore.

That's true of every form. Ultra Instinct will get fodderized to sell the next villain

As for UI Goku vs Beerus. A part of me hopes Toei/Toriyama crush the fandom's expectations and reveal Goku is only on par with Beerus

Seems unlikely, The angles are at the top of the food chain, and goku has just gotten a taste of that power, I doubt Ultra Instinct would have gotten irrelavent if super went on, especially since it’s not a form you can take whenever you want. And toei will never state that about goku and beerus. 1, MUI hasn’t been achieved by any god, and two, even if they were on par, toei will probably never say a thing about. The manga however is always powerscaling characters for us. Do you can expect the manga to say something about it, unless 130 outright states MUI goku to be above hakaishin level.

[Bullza]

Well if expect they'd use the Ultra Instinct form for the upcoming movie if that follows the events of Super. I don't think they'd come up with a new form or power up, they probably wouldn't need to either.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well if expect they'd use the Ultra Instinct form for the upcoming movie if that follows the events of Super. I don't think they'd come up with a new form or power up, they probably wouldn't need to either.

Depend on what they mean when they say the movie is about “the origin of Saiyans”

[majinwarman]

Well if expect they'd use the Ultra Instinct form for the upcoming movie if that follows the events of Super. I don't think they'd come up with a new form or power up, they probably wouldn't need to either.

Depend on what they mean when they say the movie is about “the origin of Saiyans”

We don't even know if we are going to see Goku in the new movie at all.

[Desassina]

Hey guys! I wanted to introduce a new chain or pattern of transformation multipliers being compared to one another across the media of DBS an Z. I have recently found out that perhaps we could keep it clean like this:

[spoiler]Base: 1, their regular looking form that can be stacked with Kaioken, hold the Genki-dama, and increase until SSJ/God.
SSJ: 10, which is the entry point for the transformation before it reaches full power when it could have been 50 on Namek.
ASSJ: 20, increased by 20 fold over base and twice the amount of Super Saiyan. It seems lower than on Namek due to Kaioken.
BASSJ: 80, beyond ascended SSJ with an increase of 80 fold over base and 8 times the amount of Super Saiyan. Lower than FPSSJ.
Full Power: 100, or grade IV as some guides used to call it, which is 100 times stronger than base and an increase of 10 fold over SSJ.
SSJ2: 200, twice the amount of full power SSJ and 20 times over the vanilla transformation as if it were Kaioken stacked on top of it.
SSJ3: 800, a whooping increase of 80 fold over regular SSJ and 8 times stronger than its full power to mirror the BASSJ increase.
Ultimate: 1'000, we could consider the characters in their base God state when Gohan is 100 times higher than regular SSJ.
SSJ Blue: 10'000, in the anime, I consider this to be the manga's SSJ God, or the same form when it is 10% of its potential.
Complete: 100'000, I consider Goku's full power to be a 10 fold increase over his regular SSJ Blue form in the manga.
Beyond: 200'000, which could be Vegeta's new ascended state in the SSJ Blue form with 20 times more power.
Ultra Instincts: 800'000, closer to a new milestone and 80% short of its full potential as a mastered state.
Mastered UI: 1'000'000, closing Goku's chain with 100 times more than SSJ God/vanilla Blue.[/spoiler]

This was a means to predict Ultra Instincts' power up by consistently evolving their natural looking forms and full power states with 2, 8 and 10 or 20, 80 and 100 times their battle power. What do you think about it? I have also noticed that, between SSJ Blue and Complete, there seems to be a chain missing.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Also, the manga already established Jiren > Beerus the moment it was revealed that he was stronger than Belmond.

[Miracles]

well beerus and quitela are probably above the rest, but by the the display in the battle royal we can assume that gap isnt huge ( probably like 20% most ), witch begs the question how lazy are the other GoDs considering beerus sleeps and eats all the time and is still slightly above them.

lol
We know Beerus does like to fight, I don't get that same vibe from the other gods. It looks like their passion for battle is lacking.

[Zamasu55]

Universe 6:
1) Ssj2 Kefla
2) Hit
3) Ssj Kefla
- Kefla
4) True Legendary Ssj Kale
- Ssj Berserker Kale
5) Saonel, Pirina
6) Magetta
7) Ssj2 Caulifla
Ssj2 Cabba
9) Ssj Caulifla, Ssj Kale
10) Ssj Cabba
11) Frost
12) Botamo
13) Kale, Caulifla, Cabba
14) Dr. Rota.

Yep, I think Magetta is above U6's Ssj2's. I just don't think they can beat him, if not by insulting him. The rest was easy I suppose, Saonel and Pirina did good against Ultimate Gohan, but they surely aren't above Kale.

Universe 9:
1) Bergamo
2) Basil
3) Lavender
4) Hop
5) Chappil
6) Hyssop
7) Oregano
Comfrey
9) Roselle
10) Sorrel.

Not too much to say, really.

Universe 10.

1) Obuni
2) Murichim
3) Napapa
4) Rubalt
5) Methiop
6) Jirasen
7) Zium
Jilcol, Murisarm
9) Lilibeu

Murichim was nerfed, but I do think he's still the strongest guy after Obuni. The rest is just weak.

Hit is not touching SS Kefla and the Namekians are stronger than Kale. Botamo is not stronger than any base Saiyan except Goten and Trunks.

Rubalt should be at number 2. He tangled with a SS2 tier fighter. Murichim and Napapa couldn't even beat FF Freeza.

Ssj Kefla was losing to a tired SsjB Goku, doubt Hit would.
How are the Namekians stronger than Kale?
Vegeta used Ssj against Botamo in the Tournament.
Rubalt lost instantly against Piccolo. Napapa did good against Ssj Caulifla and Murichim was stated to be tired against Freeza.

[brett wheeler]

well beerus and quitela are probably above the rest, but by the the display in the battle royal we can assume that gap isnt huge ( probably like 20% most ), witch begs the question how lazy are the other GoDs considering beerus sleeps and eats all the time and is still slightly above them.

lol
We know Beerus does like to fight, I don't get that same vibe from the other gods. It looks like their passion for battle is lacking.

even taking this into consideration how often does he fight anybody, when he first is introduced to even now he hasnt trained once and never battles ( minus the BoG fight ), so you would think even with his love for battle with him hardly fighting and his constant napping and eating, that if the other gods would just train at a somewhat regular basis they'd beat him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

After seeing the Kefla vs goku fight again, I’m pretty sure that they did not use the puny x2 multiplier for SS2 Kefla. Or maybe ssj2 isn’t x2 and the Daizenshuu is just outdated. Either way,

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I've been watching unrealentgaming (really great guy) and he made such a great point.

Goku In his 3rd awakened Omen form was still kind of even with Jiren. If only Jiren just managing to pull ahead after struggling a bit.

Mastered UI is a massive boost across the board.

There's no way Jiren should be able to fight evenly with MUI Goku. That that would be a really hard pill to swallow.

It's such a great point.

How does Jiren struggle against Omen yet fight evenly with MUI Goku? Isn't MUI Goku supposed to be Goku's most powerful form ever. Why would they introduce such a badass form for Goku, only to have Jiren still pull ahead with a "ok now here's my real full power for the 500th time, for real this time"

People want to complain about Vegeta and Goku, but look at Jiren and how much of a major "asspull" that would be for Jiren

Strength wise it should be established as MUI Goku>>>>>>>>>>>Jiren>>>Omen Goku

Personally, I would hope that MUI Goku vs Jiren would play out like Goku SS vs Frieza on Namek.

When Goku went SS he kicked ass and was clearly superior. They didn't suddenly make SS Goku look weaker or totally lose the upper hand when Frieza went to 100%.

It should play out like that IMO. Jiren at 100% being like 100% Frieza, but MUI Goku still being ahead, like SS Goku was.

MUI was introduced in such an epic way. Please continue to make MUI Goku look epic. Make time be the biggest factor IMO

[spoiler]Like maybe the Grand Priest states that the tournament will now be ending shortly. And despite MUI Goku outclassing Jiren he knows he can't wear Jiren out and ring him out in time, and so he desperately unleashes a last assault. Imagine it being the godly power attack from xenoverse 2? Would be awesome

Jiren desperately puts everything he has into a counter blast and a clash of beams

MUI Goku and Jiren now entangled in an epic bean struggle with seconds remaining. Imagine how tense that would be and the stakes? It wouldn't diminish MUI Goku or give Jiren an asspull.

Imagine as the seconds start counting down, and it looks like there will be no winners, Frieza appears and throws a blast at Jiren which distracts him, allowing MUI Goku to finally blast Jiren out. That ending would be badass[/spoiler]

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Guys guys guys...... I just realized why the Hakaishin are so much stronger than everything else we've seen up until this point.

They're all SHIRTLESS! You saw how Goku and Jiren need to lose the shirts to be above them all! THAT'S THEIR SECRET!

That means that the true path to power is going topless!

Guess this excludes 18 from ever reaching that power. Poor 18. Not unless there's an adult rated version of Super lol

[Kenneth La Torre]

I've been watching unrealentgaming (really great guy) and he made such a great point.

Goku In his 3rd awakened Omen form was still kind of even with Jiren. If only Jiren just managing to pull ahead after struggling a bit.

Mastered UI is a massive boost across the board.

There's no way Jiren should be able to fight evenly with MUI Goku. That that would be a really hard pill to swallow.

It's such a great point.

How does Jiren struggle against Omen yet fight evenly with MUI Goku? Isn't MUI Goku supposed to be Goku's most powerful form ever. Why would they introduce such a badass form for Goku, only to have Jiren still pull ahead with a "ok now here's my real full power for the 500th time, for real this time"

People want to complain about Vegeta and Goku, but look at Jiren and how much of a major asspull that would be for Jiren

Strength wise it should be established as MUI Goku>>>>>>>>>>>Jiren>>>Omen Goku

Personally, I would hope that MUI Goku vs Jiren would play out like Goku SS vs Frieza on Namek.

When Goku went SS he kicked ass and was clearly superior. They didn't suddenly make SS Goku look weaker or totally lose the upper hand when Frieza went to 100%.

It should play out like that IMO. Jiren at 100% being like 100% Frieza, but MUI Goku still being ahead, like SS Goku was.

MUI was introduced in such an epic way. Please continue to make MUI Goku look epic. Make time be the biggest factor IMO

[spoiler]Like maybe the Grand Priest states that the tournament will now be ending shortly. And despite MUI Goku outclassing Jiren he knows he can't wear Jiren out and ring him out in time, and so he desperately unleashes a last assault. Imagine it being the godly power attack from xenoverse 2? Would be awesome

Jiren desperately puts everything he has into a counter blast and a clash of beams

MUI Goku and Jiren now entangled in an epic bean struggle with seconds remaining. Imagine how tense that would be and the stakes? It wouldn't diminish MUI Goku or give Jiren an asspull.

Imagine as the seconds start counting down, and it looks like there will be no winners, Frieza appears and throws a blast at Jiren which distracts him, allowing MUI Goku to finally blast Jiren out. That ending would be badass[/spoiler]

Unrealentganing is very biased in favor of goku (have seen enought to know) and jiren wasn’t going all out. The next episode preview even mentions jiren releasing more of his Ki (mostlikely his full power). Not much to say, that’s the facts

[Bullza]

We don't even know if we are going to see Goku in the new movie at all.

Seems doubtful because it would just flop if it didn't.