Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SayianBeyondGod]

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

Didn’t SSG Goku say Freeza’s kick in his back felt like a tickle? Freeza also has a common habit of overestimate himself, specially when he fought Toppo. When he faced SS2 Cabba he wasted no time to brush off his blast with the golden form.

Goku as well could be exaggerating just like when they were slipping punches prior to the tournament. There was also the fact Frieza wasn't trying hurt or incapacitate Goku hence he held back. This doesn't explain why he did much better than SSG Goku when it came to fighting Dyspo or how Frieza fodderized Jimeze, who was bullying Base Gohan (who is equal to Base Goku) and who Goku decided to go SSJ against. It can easily be argued that Frieza can't sense hakai or god ki so he wouldn't be aware of Toppo power. While berserk controlled Kale and SSJ2 Caulifa ki weren't harder to sense, with Frieza already been watching them in battle with Goku. I'm pretty sure Frieza only went golden against Cabba to show off the power gap just like when Vegeta went SSB against Cabba in the U6 arc. If not I've seen people argue that Frieza tank the blast from Cabba in final form then went Golden. Even if final form Frieza is base tier, the fact base Vegeta fodderized Mona and Cabba needing to go SSJ2, proves he is base tier as a SSJ2 compared to U7 Saiyans or final form Frieza. So this reinforced the fact Frieza didn't really need to go Golden to actually handle SSJ2 Cabba.

[HeroR]

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

Didn’t SSG Goku say Freeza’s kick in his back felt like a tickle? Freeza also has a common habit of overestimate himself, specially when he fought Toppo. When he faced SS2 Cabba he wasted no time to brush off his blast with the golden form.

Goku as well could be exaggerating just like when they were slipping punches prior to the tournament. There was also the fact Frieza wasn't trying hurt or incapacitate Goku hence he held back. This doesn't explain why he did much better than SSG Goku when it came to fighting Dyspo or how Frieza fodderized Jimeze, who was bullying Base Gohan (who is equal to Base Goku) and who Goku decided to go SSJ against. It can easily be argued that Frieza can't sense hakai or god ki so he wouldn't be aware of Toppo power. While berserk controlled Kale and SSJ2 Caulifa ki weren't harder to sense, with Frieza already been watching them in battle with Goku. I'm pretty sure Frieza only went golden against Cabba to show off the power gap just like when Vegeta went SSB against Cabba in the U6 arc. If not I've seen people argue that Frieza tank the blast from Cabba in final form then went Golden. Even if final form Frieza is base tier, the fact base Vegeta fodderized Mona and Cabba needing to go SSJ2, proves he is base tier as a SSJ2 compared to U7 Saiyans or final form Frieza. So this reinforced the fact Frieza didn't really need to go Golden to actually handle SSJ2 Cabba.

Freeza can sense god ki since he sensed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku back in the Resurrection 'F' retelling.

Freeza himself was upset about going gold because 'he wasted stamina against that weakling'. So why would he go gold to show off if he outright said he hated doing it. Also, if you're going to used Mona she also claimed Vegeta cheap shotted her.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Didn’t SSG Goku say Freeza’s kick in his back felt like a tickle? Freeza also has a common habit of overestimate himself, specially when he fought Toppo. When he faced SS2 Cabba he wasted no time to brush off his blast with the golden form.

Goku as well could be exaggerating just like when they were slipping punches prior to the tournament. There was also the fact Frieza wasn't trying hurt or incapacitate Goku hence he held back. This doesn't explain why he did much better than SSG Goku when it came to fighting Dyspo or how Frieza fodderized Jimeze, who was bullying Base Gohan (who is equal to Base Goku) and who Goku decided to go SSJ against. It can easily be argued that Frieza can't sense hakai or god ki so he wouldn't be aware of Toppo power. While berserk controlled Kale and SSJ2 Caulifa ki weren't harder to sense, with Frieza already been watching them in battle with Goku. I'm pretty sure Frieza only went golden against Cabba to show off the power gap just like when Vegeta went SSB against Cabba in the U6 arc. If not I've seen people argue that Frieza tank the blast from Cabba in final form then went Golden. Even if final form Frieza is base tier, the fact base Vegeta fodderized Mona and Cabba needing to go SSJ2, proves he is base tier as a SSJ2 compared to U7 Saiyans or final form Frieza. So this reinforced the fact Frieza didn't really need to go Golden to actually handle SSJ2 Cabba.

Freeza can sense god ki since he sensed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku back in the Resurrection 'F' retelling.

Freeza himself was upset about going gold because 'he wasted stamina against that weakling'. So why would he go gold to show off if he outright said he hated doing it. Also, if you're going to used Mona she also claimed Vegeta cheap shotted her.

Citation for the former, specifically when in what episode. Prior to the tournement power, Frieza already implies he has solved his form's staimia issue once he perfected his Golden form with mental training, hence why he can go Golden numerous times without fatguie or was able to go into the form after being fatguie from Toppo Hakai with a head on attack from Jiren that did enough damage to piss him off. I don't know what you're trying to imply when Vegeta cheap shotted her it's seems like her subjective excuse or exaggeration if anything. It's not like he exposed her weakness or she was caught off guard as she was aware of Vegeta presence before he casually fire a ki blast or big bang at her.

[Liquir]

Beerus statement of UI Goku.
Source: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[HeroR]

Citation for the former, specifically when in what episode. Prior to the tournement power, Frieza already implies he has solved his form's staimia issue once he perfected his Golden form with mental training, hence why he can go Golden numerous times without fatguie or was able to go into the form after being fatguie from Toppo Hakai with a head on attack from Jiren that did enough damage to piss him off. I don't know what you're trying to imply when Vegeta cheap shotted her it's seems like her subjective excuse if anything. It's not like he exposed her weakness or she was caught off guard as she was aware of Vegeta presence before he casually fire a ki blast or big bang at her.

The episode where Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for the first time, 25. Herms talks about it in the translation thread here. And solving his stamina issue doesn't mean he doesn't drain stamina at all, it just means he doesn't drains it like he did in Resurrection 'F'. Also remember, a worn out Goku was still able to go and somewhat maintain Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, so Freeza can be badly drained and brute force his way back to golden against Jiren, especially since he was pissed off. Otherwise, why did he try to attack God of Destruction Toppo twice in base form?

Monna herself said Vegeta cheap shotted her, regardless if you believe her or not.

[ZombieVito]

Kale was more or less fighting evenly with Super Saiyan God Goku. She took a direct punch to the face and had no mark on her and went hands with him twice.

She did, with a tired SSG Goku. Goku also flat out says the game was over and proceed to eliminate them.

Holding back, it doesn't make sense with the context. Kefla was claiming Goku was a worthy opponent, Goku telling her to pump things up, Picoolo later making it noteworthy to claim Kefla surpassed the same Goku as a SSJ2, Roshio claiming she's beyond her limits and Whis claiming her Saiyan blood is what's only driving her even when Goku was overpowering her throughout the fight with SSBKK. I'm pretty sure he Got knocked out by due to his staimia getting a lot worse after using Kaioken ontop of Blue, this was impiled as Beerus claims he shouldn't be using kaioken as well as that he has one more shot left in which he tired to finish Kefla with a Kamekameka. I think episode 128 made it clear that getting get by brute force is enough to reduce ki, like when Vegeta got punched by Jiren in which people were concern for his stamina.

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

She flat out says she wanted to continue fighting him and got upset Goku got K.O. Also, Whis said she rivaled the Genkidama Goku made so she is at the bare minimum just as strong as SSB KKx20 Goku. She was holding back, no way around that.

Dyspo never rivaled Goku's power, only his speed. Why wouldn't he have confidence? He can turn Golden in an instant and one shot both of them. That's no proof his FF is over base tier.

[HeroR]

Kale was more or less fighting evenly with Super Saiyan God Goku. She took a direct punch to the face and had no mark on her and went hands with him twice.

She did, with a tired SSG Goku. Goku also flat out says the game was over and proceed to eliminate them.

Holding back, it doesn't make sense with the context. Kefla was claiming Goku was a worthy opponent, Goku telling her to pump things up, Picoolo later making it noteworthy to claim Kefla surpassed the same Goku as a SSJ2, Roshio claiming she's beyond her limits and Whis claiming her Saiyan blood is what's only driving her even when Goku was overpowering her throughout the fight with SSBKK. I'm pretty sure he Got knocked out by due to his staimia getting a lot worse after using Kaioken ontop of Blue, this was impiled as Beerus claims he shouldn't be using kaioken as well as that he has one more shot left in which he tired to finish Kefla with a Kamekameka. I think episode 128 made it clear that getting get by brute force is enough to reduce ki, like when Vegeta got punched by Jiren in which people were concern for his stamina.

I don't think Frieza is base tier at all in his final form, I think it's a retcon from the Resurrection F saga with Saiyan Beyond God being SSG. If we look at the tournament of power Frieza is able to fight Dyspo(whom was rivalling SSG Goku) head on or the fact he had the confidence to take on SSB controlled Kale and Caulifa at the same time.

She flat out says she wanted to continue fighting him and got upset Goku got K.O. Also, Whis said she rivaled the Genkidama Goku made so she is at the bare minimum just as strong as SSB KKx20 Goku. She was holding back, no way around that.

Dyspo never rivaled Goku's power, only his speed. Why wouldn't he have confidence? He can turn Golden in an instant and one shot both of them. That's no proof his FF is over base tier.

A tired Goku who could still go Blue and then stack Kaioken not even a minute later. Seriously, how 'tired' are you going to make him? And he tried to eliminate them by destroying the platform under Kale, not directly attacking her.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Citation for the former, specifically when in what episode. Prior to the tournement power, Frieza already implies he has solved his form's staimia issue once he perfected his Golden form with mental training, hence why he can go Golden numerous times without fatguie or was able to go into the form after being fatguie from Toppo Hakai with a head on attack from Jiren that did enough damage to piss him off. I don't know what you're trying to imply when Vegeta cheap shotted her it's seems like her subjective excuse if anything. It's not like he exposed her weakness or she was caught off guard as she was aware of Vegeta presence before he casually fire a ki blast or big bang at her.

The episode where Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for the first time, 25. Herms talks about it in the translation thread here. And solving his stamina issue doesn't mean he doesn't drain stamina at all, it just means he doesn't drains it like he did in Resurrection 'F'. Also remember, a worn out Goku was still able to go and somewhat maintain Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, so Freeza can be badly drained and brute force his way back to golden against Jiren, especially since he was pissed off. Otherwise, why did he try to attack God of Destruction Toppo twice in base form?

Monna herself said Vegeta cheap shotted her, regardless if you believe her or not.

Which line is it, I can get it translated by tomorrow if you give it to me, I've got my own dependable translators. I re-watched the episode the only thing that was implied is that Frieza is confident enough to take on Goku, which I assume you're coming from. If that's the case it's too vague to imply he can sense Goku Ki. Doesn't the series make it evident that only god ki users can sense god ki unless it's the pressure or something else.

I never claimed that his stamina doesn't drain at all, I'm implying that the same stamina issues from Resurrection F doesn't apply to his perfected Golden Form, though we never seen any stamina issues for the perfected golden form. It took Goku a few episode or a few minutes to gather enough Ki to go SSB after the fight with Jiren, after battling Kefla he can only switch to Blue for only initially periods such as a Kamekamka or blowing away opponent when just powering up. He wasn't able to maintain it until a episode 122. This isn't too different to Frieza having the staimia to go Golden not long after taking on Toppo Hakai blast which is worse than the spirit bomb in my opinion and later taking on a ki blast from Jiren that was meant for SSBKK Goku and Beyond Blue Vegeta. I don't think being angered solves his stamina issue he was just as pissed when fighting Toppo.

Why would you bring up Mona statement if there's no reason to find it credible, I think it's evident that she's upset that Vegeta ki blasted her and ran away, hence why she thinks it's a cheap shot rather than exposing a weakness of some kind. I find feats more credible than statements to be honest.

[HeroR]

Which line is it, I can get it translated by tomorrow if you give it to me, I've got my own dependable translators. I re-watched the episode the only thing that was implied is that Frieza is confident enough to take on Goku, which I assume you're coming from. If that's the case it's too vague to imply he can sense Goku Ki. Doesn't the series make it evident that only god ki users can sense god ki unless it's the pressure or something else.

I never claimed that his stamina doesn't drain at all, I'm implying that the same stamina issues from Resurrection F doesn't apply to his perfected Golden Form, though we never seen any stamina issues for the perfected golden form. It took Goku a few episode or a few minutes to gather enough Ki to go SSB after the fight with Jiren, after battling Kefla he can only switch to Blue for only initially periods such as a Kamekamka or blowing away opponent when just powering up. He wasn't able to maintain it until a episode 122. This isn't too different to Frieza having the staimia to go Golden not long after taking on Toppo Hakai blast which is worse than the spirit bomb in my opinion and later taking on a ki blast from Jiren that was meant for SSBKK Goku and Beyond Blue Vegeta. I don't think being angered solves his stamina issue he was just as pissed when fighting Toppo.

Why would you bring up Mona statement if there's no reason to find it credible, I think it's evident that she's upset that Vegeta ki blasted her and ran away, hence why she thinks it's a cheap shot rather than exposing a weakness of some kind. I find feats more credible than statements to be honest.

It was near the beginning of 25. Also, Hit can sense god ki since he felt Goku's multiplier for the Kaioken in 39. Trunks also felt Vegetto Blue ki after he got Super Saiyan Rage when before he couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta, showing that mortals of a certain power can sense god ki. In fact, this was stated back when Vegeta was training.

Golden Freeza still drains stamina, just not as badly, hence why he has only used that form a few times. He used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan again in 118 along with the Kaioken, which was after Kelfa. Anger have make people stronger and dumber. Especially when considered less than two minute past and Freeza got beating up several times after taking that Haki blast. When did he take a ki blast from Jiren meant for Goku and Vegeta. Freeza tried to blindside Jiren, Jiren shut him down, Freeza got pissed and went gold and charged Jiren, Jiren stopped him and punched him out of gold.

There isn't anything to say she isn't creditable other than 'well, she was mad' which isn't evidence. And if you only find feats creditable, then Krillin much be closed to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku's level since his feats showed him holding back the Kamehameha, despite the show telling us that he stood no chance in hell.

[SayianBeyondGod]

She flat out says she wanted to continue fighting him and got upset Goku got K.O. Also, Whis said she rivaled the Genkidama Goku made so she is at the bare minimum just as strong as SSB KKx20 Goku. She was holding back, no way around that.

Dyspo never rivaled Goku's power, only his speed. Why wouldn't he have confidence? He can turn Golden in an instant and one shot both of them. That's no proof his FF is over base tier.

Just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight. She's implying she wanted the fight to prolong despite Goku having stamina issue to keep up, not that she specifically claim that she held back. After all she calls him a worthy opponent in the end which implies he was giving her trouble hence she wouldn't be holding back. Her holding back is too contradictive to the other various following instances in the context I already listed. A full power SSB was implied to be troublesome to SSJ1 Kefla which was implied by Vados and Champa, with fatigue SSBKK Goku overpowering her with the spectators claiming Kefla is beyond her limits(stated by Roshi) and is resorting to saiyan blood driving her(stated by Whis). It's contradictive to her being Genkidama level or even SSBKKx20 considering this was a fatigue Goku going normal kaioken as he only yells kaioken without a stack multiplier with stamina to low to reach x20. If you go back the Whis statement which you brought up, it's likely Whis is comparing Kefla in a ability/role fashion, especially when in latter of the statement he claims that Kefla acted as a stimulus rather than literally rivalling the spirit bomb in power. It's important to know that when Dragon ball uses the term "rival" it doesn't mean match in raw power as even SSB Goku was stated to rival the Gods despite he being nowhere near their power. I also want to bring up even the narrator implies the overall extreme battle being the trigger of Goku form rather than Kefla ki even Whis claims Kefla's ki rather than kick, if that means something.

[SayianBeyondGod]

It was near the beginning of 25. Also, Hit can sense god ki since he felt Goku's multiplier for the Kaioken in 39. Trunks also felt Vegetto Blue ki after he got Super Saiyan Rage when before he couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta, showing that mortals of a certain power can sense god ki. In fact, this was stated back when Vegeta was training.

Golden Freeza still drains stamina, just not as badly, hence why he has only used that form a few times. He used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan again in 118 along with the Kaioken, which was after Kelfa. Anger have make people stronger and dumber. Especially when considered less than two minute past and Freeza got beating up several times after taking that Hakai blast. When did he take a ki blast from Jiren meant for Goku and Vegeta. Freeza tried to blindside Jiren, Jiren shut him down, Freeza got pissed and went gold and charged Jiren, Jiren stopped him and punched him out of gold.

There isn't anything to say she isn't creditable other than 'well, she was mad' which isn't evidence. And if you only find feats creditable, then Krillin much be closed to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku's level since his feats showed him holding back the Kamehameha, despite the show telling us that he stood no chance in hell.

I need you to get a little more specific than that otherwise I don't see a point in arguing it. I don't know which line was a mistranslation. I just watched 25 but I don't see anything imply Frieza sensing God ki, the best you can conclude to this is that Frieza wasn't frigthen by Goku's presence which Krilln claims, or anything correlating to Frieza not being scared at all. We don't know if Hit has God ki or not, because we don't know how he power really work so I rule him out. We never had an explantion on how Super Saiyan Rage works I assume Trunks just broke his shell like Vegeta or Goku had. I beileve their pressure of God ki can be felt rather than just ki, especially when it's refer to as pressure maybe due to how dense god ki is. As for the Trunks example TheSaiyanGod made a good point about it:

In the case of Trunks, he looks at Vegetto releasing his power (remembering that SSB Ki produces great pressure) and says '' what unbelievable energy. '' At no point is it being indicated that he is FEELING his power (in the earlier episodes he rightly points out that he is not capable of this), he is only clearly seeing the great amount of energy and pressure of Vegetto's Ki.

I still don't believe Golden Frieza has stamina issue beside typically ones such as from brute force or being drained by attacks, like when trying to aid Gohan with a laser field but maintains the Golden form until the next episode. Still Goku can only use kaioken for a short period or just after a kamekameka though, it's not like he can maintain at that point. Again, while being angered or bloodlusted cause people to use their higher potential it's not like he's suddenly recovers their fatigue especially without breaking any shells or limits but this seems to be a saiyan exclusive thing. I'm pretty sure after Frieza got hit by Jiren he had more time to recover then immediately trying to face Toppo.

But in the same time there's no physical evidence that she was unguarded or was exposed with a weakness. I think the fact she upset that Vegeta got away after hurting her is a fair point. I'm not implying statements don't matter, I'm implying feats have higher authority if they contradict the statement. If statements are giving context to explain a scene then i don't see anything wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was Toshio statement that proved that Goku held back against Krillin. But still when looking back at the scene with Vegeta one shotting Mona, I don't see any physical proof of a cheap shot or where it's coming from.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Had a good laugh at Beerus supposedly saying UI Goku "might" be stronger than him. It'd be like Nappa saying Goku might be stronger than him back in the Saiyan Arc.

[Bullza]

So that's referring to Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku might be stronger than Beerus?

That would be interesting if that was said. It would mean Jiren up to this point and Ultra Instinct Omen Goku would be weaker than Beerus.

Maybe they could still be stronger than some of the other Gods of Destruction though.

In a way it would kinda make sense for Ultra Instinct Omen Goku to be around the level of Beerus who also had a non mastered form of Ultra Instinct.

[Birusu16]

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku >= Jiren (FP) > Beerus > Jiren (from episode 129) > Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (from episode 129)

That's the only way this statement makes sense. Never believed that MUI Goku would be capable of stomping Beerus as that would just be utterly ridiculous.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

For those who really believed that Beerus was still stronger then MUI Goku, a bombshell.was just dropped

Read herms twitter

Beerus himself is going to be saying that Goku might be stronger them himself

Beerus has a bit of an ego lol. For Beerus to even admit that Goku could be stronger means that in reality Goku is wayy stronger

There it is. Its been verified now. What amazing times. Goku did it. No more ifs and or buts

It was fairly obvious from the start

Jiren was said to be stronger then Belmon who was said to be among the strongest gods.

If Omen Goku was competitive with Jiren then that means both Jiren and Omen Goku were already, at the VERY LEAST, on Beerus' level

Mastered UI Goku is far superior to Beerus.

Beerus wouldnt have praised Goku and been happy to now have a rival who is stronger who can challenge him and force hinself into pushing past his own limits, if MUI Goku didnt far surpass him.

Hopefully MUI Goku tools Beerus when Super returns and it forces Beerus lazy ass to start training for once lol.

The gods wouldnt have stood in awe or respect of Goku, if MUI Goku didnt far suprass them and show them something they had never seen before

This is awesome confirmation to have. The legend of Son Goku continues to rise. The greatest Saiyan to ever live. This is only the begining. We have only just began to scratch the surface of MUI Goku: )

[Legion]

When Whis will confirm what Beerus said, the fanfiction here will soon stop.

[wolflonnie]

FINALLY. Thanks Toei. About freaking time.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It makes sense that only at full power, will goku and jiren be above beerus and the other gods.

[Nevaeh]

So not only is Goku not angel level but there's a good chance he's still not above Beerus?

[HeroR]

For those who really believed that Beerus was still stronger then MUI Goku, a bombshell.was just dropped

Read herms twitter

Beerus himself is going to be saying that Goku might be stronger them himself

Beerus has a bit of an ego lol. For Beerus to even admit that Goku could be stronger means that in reality Goku is wayy stronger

There it is. Its been verified now. What amazing times. Goku did it. No more ifs and or buts

It was fairly obvious from the start

Jiren was said to be stronger then Belmon who was said to be among the strongest gods.

If Omen Goku was competitive with Jiren then that means both Jiren and Omen Goku were already, at the VERY LEAST, on Beerus' level

Mastered UI Goku is far superior to Beerus.

Beerus wouldnt have praised Goku and been happy to now have a rival who is stronger who can challenge him and force hinself into pushing past his own limits, if MUI Goku didnt far surpass him.

Hopefully MUI Goku tools Beerus when Super returns and it forces Beerus lazy ass to start training for once lol.

The gods wouldnt have stood in awe or respect of Goku, if MUI Goku didnt far suprass them and show them something they had never seen before

This is awesome confirmation to have. The legend of Son Goku continues to rise. The greatest Saiyan to ever live. This is only the begining. We have only just began to scratch the surface of MUI Goku: )

That wasn't said anywhere. What God of Destruction is the strongest or weakest is all headcanon by fans based on the battle royal from the manga, that put all the Gods of Destruction in the same power range.