Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Desassina]

Hey guys, I'm a bit confused with the manga battle between Vegeta and Goku Black, along with the Goku and Trunks fight that preceded. It's strength related, obviously, hence the thread, but I would really appreciate a debate with concepts instead of numbers, and the usual continuity affairs. I will consider the anime helpful in case its concepts give me a hand.

Trunks matched Goku when he used SSJ2 and 3 with only SSJ2. He wasn't a match for the body of Goku in the future, whose persona didn't know how to unlock its power, but Vegeta was also up there when he faced SSJ Goku Black. The latter could still get a Zenkai, while Vegeta did not upon being healed, but is that an indication that he trained more? I don't remember when or where, specially when he should be on par with Goku, unless the manga pulled the anime BoG SSJ increase (when the form adapted to SSJG).

Secondly, was Goku Black increasing the power of SSJ on its own, so that he could reach the level of a God, in order to transform into SSJ Rosé? The power up didn't seem so big that Vegeta couldn't cover it with SSJB at full power (switched from SSJG). I believe that it was Black's SSJ power that increased, while Rosé was not complete like Goku's SSJ Blue, and the latter lowered himself to Trunks' level with SSJ2 and 3. In other words: SSJ is already including the power of its numbered forms; they can be actively used on a lower realm; it's similar to a strong base in RoF.

[Bullza]

Whis gave his entire speech about a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction at that point.

Well this is Whis' and Shin's exact comment.

Whis - "Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."

Shin - "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong, plain and simple."

Whis - "I daresay, like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumour is true."

So it wasn't necessarily at that point he was stronger than a GoD but perhaps rather that Jiren was immensely powerful and Whis knew he was heavily suppressed and so with that in mind he must be the one above a GoD.

[HeroR]

Whis gave his entire speech about a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction at that point.

Well this is Whis' and Shin's exact comment.

Whis - "Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."

Shin - "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong, plain and simple."

Whis - "I daresay, like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumour is true."

So it wasn't necessarily at that point he was stronger than a GoD but perhaps rather that Jiren was immensely powerful and Whis knew he was heavily suppressed and so with that in mind he must be the one above a GoD.

The point remains that Whis confirmed in that moment Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction. So saying Beerus is above Jiren has no backing unless you wank Beerus.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Whis gave his entire speech about a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction at that point.

Well this is Whis' and Shin's exact comment.

Whis - "Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."

Shin - "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong, plain and simple."

Whis - "I daresay, like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumour is true."

So it wasn't necessarily at that point he was stronger than a GoD but perhaps rather that Jiren was immensely powerful and Whis knew he was heavily suppressed and so with that in mind he must be the one above a GoD.

The point remains that Whis confirmed in that moment Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction. So saying Beerus is above Jiren has no backing unless you wank Beerus.

I can agree to this. If MUI goku is above beerus, and MUI goku and jiren might be even, theres no reason for jiren to be below beerus

[Miracles]

You guys were so sure that MUI and Jiren was above Beerus.
Beerus is so buff he can only QUESTION if MUI Goku is above him.

Like many have said, Jiren > Belmound > Beerus was a fan illusion.

[Bullza]

The point remains that Whis confirmed in that moment Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction. So saying Beerus is above Jiren has no backing unless you wank Beerus.

No it was never said at that specific moment he was stronger than a GoD of Destruction. Only that he was the one who the rumours were about.

And if the next episode only then has Beerus saying Goku surpassed him, then he and Jiren were clearly weaker than him up till now.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Either Jiren > = MUI goku = Beerus
Or Jiren > = MUI goku > Beerus

It won’t be beerus > Jiren = > Goku.

Either way, they are at least as strong as beerus and no less



And it finally clears out that suppressed jiren was above G.o.D level (which is was expected that suppressed was below G.o.D). We really needed to know if he was or not while suppressed.

It also means that a top tier hakaishin like beerus and belmod literally shits on merged zamasu like nothing

[HeroR]

The point remains that Whis confirmed in that moment Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction. So saying Beerus is above Jiren has no backing unless you wank Beerus.

No it was never said at that specific moment he was stronger than a GoD of Destruction. Only that he was the one who the rumours were about.

And if the next episode only then has Beerus saying Goku surpassed him, then he and Jiren were clearly weaker than him up till now.

It was more or less and U11's god indirectly confirmed it. Super isn't exactly subtile on this.

Not really since Beerus is a prideful SOB.

Either Jiren > = MUI goku = Beerus
Or Jiren > = MUI goku > Beerus

It won’t be beerus > Jiren = > Goku.

Either way, they are at least as strong as beerus and no less



And it finally clears out that suppressed jiren was above G.o.D level (which is was expected that suppressed was below G.o.D). We really needed to know if he was or not while suppressed.

It also means that a top tier hakaishin like beerus and belmod literally shits on merged zamasu like nothing

That's hard to say if you believe Vegetto Blue is almost as strong as Beerus and Merged Zamasu in the anime was just about equal to Vegetto.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The point remains that Whis confirmed in that moment Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction. So saying Beerus is above Jiren has no backing unless you wank Beerus.

No it was never said at that specific moment he was stronger than a GoD of Destruction. Only that he was the one who the rumours were about.

And if the next episode only then has Beerus saying Goku surpassed him, then he and Jiren were clearly weaker than him up till now.

It was more or less and U11's god indirectly confirmed it. Super isn't exactly subtile on this.

Not really since Beerus is a prideful SOB.

Either Jiren > = MUI goku = Beerus
Or Jiren > = MUI goku > Beerus

It won’t be beerus > Jiren = > Goku.

Either way, they are at least as strong as beerus and no less



And it finally clears out that suppressed jiren was above G.o.D level (which is was expected that suppressed was below G.o.D). We really needed to know if he was or not while suppressed.

It also means that a top tier hakaishin like beerus and belmod literally shits on merged zamasu like nothing

That's hard to say if you believe Vegetto Blue is almost as strong as Beerus and Merged Zamasu in the anime was just about equal to Vegetto.

I’m not counting corrupted at its peak, just regular halo fusion zamasu. And it seems likely that vegito isn’t on beerus level. I mean, it came from someone who doesn’t know about beerus full power. Tho I’m a believer that vegito blue is slightly below beerus or just as strong.

[Miracles]

The point remains that Whis confirmed in that moment Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction. So saying Beerus is above Jiren has no backing unless you wank Beerus.

During the Genki dama struggle, that point Whis made was directed at Belmound not Beerus.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Vegetto can't be anywhere close to Beerus because suppressed Jiren would snap him like a twig.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Vegetto can't be anywhere close to Beerus because suppressed Jiren would snap him like a twig.

It’s very confusing to be honest. Vegito was stated by the Supreme Kai to be perhaps above vegito (which is obviously not anymore). His feats alone would just put him on par with 110 UIO goku and suppressed jiren... seems like this is another case of Supreme Kai underestimating people he doesn’t know the full extend of.

But who knows, maybe vegito is very near beerus, just not stronger.

[Kenneth La Torre]

*perhaps above beerus

Damn I can’t edit my mistakes for some reason

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even 110 Goku and Jiren should demolish Vegetto. Vegeta said Jiren's ki was the heaviest he'd ever felt while he was even more suppressed than he was against Goku.

[Legion]

Either Jiren > = MUI goku = Beerus
Or Jiren > = MUI goku > Beerus

It won’t be beerus > Jiren = > Goku.

Either way, they are at least as strong as beerus and no less



And it finally clears out that suppressed jiren was above G.o.D level (which is was expected that suppressed was below G.o.D). We really needed to know if he was or not while suppressed.

It also means that a top tier hakaishin like beerus and belmod literally shits on merged zamasu like nothing

I think it will be Jiren >= MUI Goku >= Beerus

I believe that Jiren will win high diff.

[Bullza]

If we cross reference with the manga and say Super Saiyan Blue Vegito is on par with Beerus, then it's only more evidence that Ultra Instinct Omen wasn't close to Beerus level.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku from Episode 110 was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and she isn't going to be anywhere near as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. I know he powered up since then but probably not enough to over come that difference until now when he's mastered it.

The non full power Jiren is above a God of Destruction because he's stronger than Toppo. It just might be that he's not above Beerus until he does use his full power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If we cross reference with the manga and say Super Saiyan Blue Vegito is on par with Beerus, then it's only more evidence that Ultra Instinct Omen wasn't close to Beerus level.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku from Episode 110 was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and she isn't going to be anywhere near as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. I know he powered up since then but probably not enough to over come that difference until now when he's mastered it.

The non full power Jiren is above a God of Destruction because he's stronger than Toppo. It just might be that he's not above Beerus until he does use his full power.

Except UIO Goku was keeping up with a Jiren who was using more power than he was against Vegeta, which would place him above MZ and Vegetto.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm still not comfortable with labelling Jiren as stronger than a Hakaishin at any point prior to episode 130; it always seemed more like the magnitude of his suppression telling us just how strong he was.

[Bullza]

Except UIO Goku was keeping up with a Jiren who was using more power than he was against Vegeta, which would place him above MZ and Vegetto.

Well that was after he powered up in Episode 116 and then he got more powerful in the last episode.

He'd also be stronger than a God of Destruction, Vegeta and Merged Zamasu. I have no doubt that he would be actually, dunno about Super Saiyan Blue Vegito but he doesn't have to be above Beerus.

Beerus has a non mastered version of Ultra Instinct as well supposedly. It was enough for him to stand his ground against all the other Gods at once.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Except UIO Goku was keeping up with a Jiren who was using more power than he was against Vegeta, which would place him above MZ and Vegetto.

Well that was after he powered up in Episode 116 and then he got more powerful in the last episode.

He'd also be stronger than a God of Destruction, Vegeta and Merged Zamasu. I have no doubt that he would be actually, dunno about Super Saiyan Blue Vegito but he doesn't have to be above Beerus.

Beerus has a non mastered version of Ultra Instinct as well supposedly. It was enough for him to stand his ground against all the other Gods at once.

I'm talking about 122. Vegeta says he's never encountered an energy as strong as Jiren's, and also says Jiren isn't using the same power and speed he used against Goku.

Therefore Goku > Suppressed Jiren > MZ.