Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I guess you hadn’t seen the spoilers right?

I saw something about Goku falling and Frieza coming back but it also made it sound like the fight might continue as there was something about them staring at Zeno. Maybe they get rid of the ring out rule for the last part or something.

But I suppose had I not seen the spoilers then you'd have just given it away for me anyway.

[HeroR]

Since the revelation of goku in MUI perhaps NOW being above beerus, is anyone upset that hakaishin toppo, despite him being stated to be “no different than a hakaishin” is actually far below actual hakaishins? I was actually in board with vegeta giving beerus a good fight, but now I see that beerus would still demolish him without effort. It’s kind of sad how VASTLY ahead goku is compared to vegeta.


Also on another subject. Anyone remember when toppo stated “if you are evenly match with me, you stand no chance against jiren”...

Me then “damn, how much stronger is he”

Me now “bro... someone can be dozens of times stronger than you, and STILL be nothing to jiren”

Like is ridiculous how VAST the gap between jiren and toppo is, heck, is ridiculous how VAST the gap between hakaishin toppo and Jiren is.

Nah. Toppo is a newbie GoD, it would be strange the contrary. Plus I do think he fits in the lower tier of GoDs.

But there is no 'lower tier of GoDs'. Fans just made that up since it was never said or implied in the show that the Gods of Destruction vary in strength that much from one another.

[Helios518]

But there is no 'lower tier of GoDs'. Fans just made that up since it was never said or implied in the show that the Gods of Destruction vary in strength that much from one another.

IIRC, there's nothing saying that all GoDs have the same level of power. Just only that have they're in the same league/domain in power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But there is no 'lower tier of GoDs'. Fans just made that up since it was never said or implied in the show that the Gods of Destruction vary in strength that much from one another.

IIRC, there's nothing saying that all GoDs have the same level of power. Just only that have they're in the same league/domain in power.

And that general range is what some people deny; HeroR, myself, and others contest this outlook.

[HeroR]

But there is no 'lower tier of GoDs'. Fans just made that up since it was never said or implied in the show that the Gods of Destruction vary in strength that much from one another.

IIRC, there's nothing saying that all GoDs have the same level of power. Just only that have they're in the same league/domain in power.

And that general range is what some people deny; HeroR, myself, and others contest this outlook.

They maybe a range, but it isn't as big as some people pushed. Again, if Beerus is a 10, then the 'weakest' god would be a 9. Not if Beerus is a 10 the weakest god is a 5.

[Helios518]

But there is no 'lower tier of GoDs'. Fans just made that up since it was never said or implied in the show that the Gods of Destruction vary in strength that much from one another.

IIRC, there's nothing saying that all GoDs have the same level of power. Just only that have they're in the same league/domain in power.

And that general range is what some people deny; HeroR, myself, and others contest this outlook.

Sure, you could deny it (more power to you) but all I'm just saying that there's no answer if all GoDs have the same power or not.

[Kenneth La Torre]

IIRC, there's nothing saying that all GoDs have the same level of power. Just only that have they're in the same league/domain in power.

And that general range is what some people deny; HeroR, myself, and others contest this outlook.

Sure, you could deny it (more power to you) but all I'm just saying that there's no answer if all GoDs have the same power or not.

No, but they are all capable of harming each other, so they are nearly on par with each other.

[Helios518]

And that general range is what some people deny; HeroR, myself, and others contest this outlook.

Sure, you could deny it (more power to you) but all I'm just saying that there's no answer if all GoDs have the same power or not.

No, but they are all capable of harming each other, so they are nearly on par with each other.

As far as the anime is concern, there's nothing suggesting that they could hurt each other (besides Beerus and Champa).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And that general range is what some people deny; HeroR, myself, and others contest this outlook.

Sure, you could deny it (more power to you) but all I'm just saying that there's no answer if all GoDs have the same power or not.

No, but they are all capable of harming each other, so they are nearly on par with each other.

Not to mention that the level of Hakaishin is referred to in the general sense as a measuring stick, rather than the individual gods.

[EDIT]:
The remaining Hakaishin also ALL stood up when Goku mastered the Ultra Instinct.

[HeroR]

Sure, you could deny it (more power to you) but all I'm just saying that there's no answer if all GoDs have the same power or not.

No, but they are all capable of harming each other, so they are nearly on par with each other.

As far as the anime is concern, there's nothing suggesting that they could hurt each other (besides Beerus and Champa).

There is also nothing in the anime stating that Beerus is above all the Gods of Destruction either. So this work both ways if we're going for 'absent of evidence'.

There is also U11 god outright saying that 'Toppo is no different than a God of Destruction' with no indication that Toppo was vastly weaker than a God of Destruction outside of Beerus saying 'he needs to charge Haki'.

[Helios518]

No, but they are all capable of harming each other, so they are nearly on par with each other.

As far as the anime is concern, there's nothing suggesting that they could hurt each other (besides Beerus and Champa).

There is also nothing in the anime stating that Beerus is above all the Gods of Destruction either. So this work both ways if we're going for 'absent of evidence'.

There is also U11 god outright saying that 'Toppo is no different than a God of Destruction' with no indication that Toppo was vastly weaker than a God of Destruction outside of Beerus saying 'he needs to charge Haki'.

Yeah, that is what I was saying with with my last few replies.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Do you guys think Jiren will break his limits to take on Complete Ultra Instinct Goku?

It certainly seems like he's gonna have to go beyond the power that goes beyond a Hakaishin.

[Speedster]

So let's try to make a tier list, after everything we know.

- Zenos
- Zeno guards
- Grand Priest
- Angels
- Jiren (FP)
- MUI Goku

I think it is implied from the next episode preview (ep 130) that Jiren will power up further to match MUI Goku. But that power-up won't be because he is tapping into some unused power he has been holding back (like for example Freeza going from 50% to 100%) but instead because he was pushed to break his limits and unlock further power – much like Goku has unlocked further power-ups time and again. Or if you want a villain example that would be Perfect Cell going Super Perfect versus SSJ2 Gohan. With this in mind, it would be wrong to say that MUI Goku is not above FP Jiren. That is like saying SSJ2 Gohan is not above FP Perfect Cell. MUI Goku is above FP Jiren – just Jiren will improve in episode 130 in order to match MUI Goku. He becomes "Super Jiren".

Based on the spoilers I don't expect Jiren’s improvement to overpower Goku but instead get him off-guard at some point and cause him to fall off the arena, probably he manages to destroy the rock Goku was standing at. In other circumstances Goku would still be able to continue the fight and possibly win (hence why the spoilers say they both stare at Zeno as if they are going to continue the fight) but as this is a tournament Goku has technically lost by ring out. Then Freeza shows up and probably the tournament ends up with a draw due to time-out.

So amending your list I would say this:

- Zenos
- Grand Priest
- Angels
- "Super Jiren" (ep 130)/ MUI Goku
- FP Jiren

[HeroR]

Do you guys think Jiren will break his limits to take on Complete Ultra Instinct Goku?

It certainly seems like he's gonna have to go beyond the power that goes beyond a Hakaishin.

All indications is that he just uses his full power, not him pushing himself past his limits.

[Green]

So does this recent statement about UI Goku being possibly stronger than Beerus finally refute the "Hakaishin Toppo ~ Beerus" notion that goes around here?

Because, you know

UI >> UI Omen ~ Jiren (recent episodes) >> SSBE Vegeta > Hakaishin Toppo

or does this imply Vegeta is way stronger than we thought and simply was too wounded/tired to be efficient againts Jiren in the tournament's last minutes? But then again, SSBE never seemed a big deal unlike Ultra Istinct Omen and the same goes for Toppo/Jiren.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So does this recent statement about UI Goku being possibly stronger than Beerus finally refute the "Hakaishin Toppo ~ Beerus" notion that goes around here?

Because, you know

UI >> UI Omen ~ Jiren (recent episodes) >> SSBE Vegeta > Hakaishin Toppo

or does this imply Vegeta is way stronger than we thought and simply was too wounded/tired to be efficient againts Jiren in the tournament's last minutes? But then again, SSBE never seemed a big deal unlike Ultra Istinct Omen and the same goes for Toppo/Jiren.

The way I see it, Vegeta didn't eclipse Toppo in power until he utilized his Final Explosion, at which point it was only the attack itself that truly beat Toppo; he only managed to knock Toppo out, with no indication that he was holding back the attack's power.

For me anyways, this makes the most sense. Vegeta did become a tad bit stronger when he gained new resolve against Hakaishin Toppo, but it wasn't enough to defeat him outright; he needed an attack that went beyond his limits, beyond even the Final Flash, that could resist Toppo's Hakai Energy entirely. Hakaishin Toppo was more than strong enough to not be killed by the Final Explosion, so that's what Vegeta went with.

[Legion]

So does this recent statement about UI Goku being possibly stronger than Beerus finally refute the "Hakaishin Toppo ~ Beerus" notion that goes around here?

Because, you know

UI >> UI Omen ~ Jiren (recent episodes) >> SSBE Vegeta > Hakaishin Toppo

or does this imply Vegeta is way stronger than we thought and simply was too wounded/tired to be efficient againts Jiren in the tournament's last minutes? But then again, SSBE never seemed a big deal unlike Ultra Istinct Omen and the same goes for Toppo/Jiren.

Again, Toppo was no different in terms of who he was. As in he was now a full fledged God. Not that he was the same as them in terms of power. These spoilers basically confirmed that Toppo is weaker than them.

And since Beerus didn't say anything about Vegeta power.....

[Kenneth La Torre]

So current interview suggest that toriyama made jiren to be gokus greatest rival, and that jiren will have an important role in 131.

I get the feeling that jiren will have his wish fulfilled. They haven’t mentioned it yet, so maybe when he makes the wish we will know. Idk, just my opinion.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Btw, did the preview for 130 say that not only goku, but jiren as well will break through his limit. Maybe he will gain a power up beyond what he was capable of to defeat goku, or at least allow him to fight evenly with. Tho I just think it’s just his full power. Could be wrong

[Legion]

The universes will be restored. This is 100% sure. It doesn't matter who will win.

Jiren will use his full power, nothing more. It's clear with the spoilers.