Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[brett wheeler]

I love goku stating he can't just use UI any time he wants, it makes me wonder if he will search out a different power or just train to achieve it willingly. My over all thoughts for the last episode it, it was rushed but it didn't feel like the end of a series, just the end of an arc, I say they will come back with a new db anime series, and explore the other universes and characters, honestly I can't wait for the movie and the possibility of a new series.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It seems that jirem eill still be a very relavent character in terms of power. Not only did goku out right state that he cant use UI (i guess they meant he has no way to access it by himself), but its also a power a hakaishin cant reach. I wonder if the movie will have goku use UI at the end in a sinilar fashion to bojack. Heck, i wonder if goku will even require UI at all. Who knows, to mich speculation.

[brett wheeler]

It seems that jirem eill still be a very relavent character in terms of power. Not only did goku out right state that he cant use UI (i guess they meant he has no way to access it by himself), but its also a power a hakaishin cant reach. I wonder if the movie will have goku use UI at the end in a sinilar fashion to bojack. Heck, i wonder if goku will even require UI at all. Who knows, to mich speculation.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't that seemed like a special case that won't happen often, but still I would love to see it one last time, oh well I guess we all will see soon enough right.

[Amir]

Given how absurdly powerful Kefla was as a SSJ2 - easily rivaling UI Omen in power, Vegito SSJ2 should be even stronger, and SSJB Vegito should be infinitely stronger, easily surpassing UI Omen Goku and Full Power Jiren by a large margin. I don't know how much of an increase MUI Goku and Limit Breaker Jiren got, so I have no idea if Vegito as Blue would be weaker or stronger than them.

But Kefla never rivalled UI Omen in anything, she just lasted so long(half a minute? 40 seconds in db time?) because Goku was sort of aware while attacking, but she never ever got close to even landing a punch, she didn't even hurt him when he was dodging and got touched in the arm by one of her beams, he hardly flinched. Goku's kamehameha even destroyed the earrings or something of that sort!

And that is considering that UI Omen's second coming wasn't as spot on as the one in 110 was (when he was slowly growing stronger and overwhelming Jiren) and hurried things up before the power wore off due to having less stamina than the first time UI happened, that time he was fueled by the Genki Dama, against Kefla he had spent almost all of what Freeza gave him.

Against Kefla, Goku's rival was himself and his impossibility to let go while attacking. Against Jiren, every single time his rival was Jiren, only that guy rivalled UI Omen and I wouldn't even say he did that easily.

Also Kefla is part Kale who has that weird green legendary ki that apparently justifies the massive power up, she seemed more like a LSSJ2 Kefla, not a regular SS2. She was said to be strong like the Genki Dama, which is not even close to UI Omen.

I said in power, her power was confirmed strong enough to hurt him, and she even managed to scratch someone with instinctive movements. She was able to withstand many hits from UI Omen Goku and, whose offense was no good compared to MUI, but even Omen was still really fucking powerful ,above Goku KKX20.
Sure, Goku won because his speed and reaction time were far beyond Kefla's.

Your second point is wrong. Character stated that the 2nd UI Omen was actually stronger than the one who fought against Jiren, Piccolo even said she surpassed his earlier level. Dyspo confirmed his movements had gotten even sharper and he got stronger. So it's the total opposite of what you believe. The UI that fought Kefla was stronger than the UI that fought Jiren.

Kefla was stated to be SSJ2, the rest id your headcanon. Other than the hair color which is not enough evidence, nothing suggested that Kale's berserker power was fused with the SSJ power as Kefla.

[ZombieVito]

Golden Frieza was pretty much confirmed to be above Android 17. I think most would say that anyway but it was made even more clear here.

Jiren was severely weakened to the point Golden Frieza could match him. What was then very odd is how Jiren's power increased but then Base Goku and Final Form Frieza beat him.

The episode didn't tell me how Final Form Frieza compares. Is he on the level of Base Goku or Super Saiyan Goku?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta are equal still. Worth pointing out because about ten episodes ago there was discussion on whether or not Vegeta had surpassed him especially during the Final Flash scene but no.

Goku's lost Ultra Instinct. Seems like it could be a bit of Coolers Revenge/Bojack Unbound scenario for the movie now and that he will get the form back during the fight and win that at.

****

And that's it. That's the end of the series. There won't be much discussion here I'd imagine going forward. There's the manga monthly and the movie at the end of the year that's it.

I would like to see people do a final ranking or tier lost now the series is over.

Well, considering that in both mediums Freeza needed to trick Frost in order to eliminate him and Goku could barely go Super Saiyan at the end, I'll say he's base tier.

I also agree. This episode makes me lower 17 in my list. I wonder if he's stronger than Pirina/Saonel.

[Bullza]

Well, considering that in both mediums Freeza needed to trick Frost in order to eliminate him and Goku could barely go Super Saiyan at the end, I'll say he's base tier.

I also agree. This episode makes me lower 17 in my list. I wonder if he's stronger than Pirina/Saonel.

They did but Champa did say he stood no chance against Frieza so he should be a good bit stronger than Frost.

Which would then bring you back to whether or not Frost is below Base level or just below Super Saiyan level.

Final Form Frieza being Super Saiyan level works for me though.

Android 17 like Ultimate Gohan is a bit up in the air. Neither are as strong as Toppo so neither are Super Saiyan Blue level. Whose stronger between Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan? I have no idea but the U6 Namekians were on par with Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

They did but Champa did say he stood no chance against Frieza so he should be a good bit stronger than Frost.

Which would then bring you back to whether or not Frost is below Base level or just below Super Saiyan level.

Final Form Frieza being Super Saiyan level works for me though.

Android 17 like Ultimate Gohan is a bit up in the air. Neither are as strong as Toppo so neither are Super Saiyan Blue level. Whose stronger between Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan? I have no idea but the U6 Namekians were on par with Gohan.

No different from Korin saying Goku stood no chance against Cell or Kuririn sensing SSG3 Trunks power. It makes no sense for Freeza to go through all that trouble if he's stronger.

Characters in the past have been able to sense the hidden energy of people. No reason for the 100+ million year old God of Destruction to be any different.

Gohan was said to rival Blue Goku though. The reason he couldn't beat Toppo was likely because of his endurance. He did take a full power Kamehameha from Blue Goku without any serious injuries. He's a tank.

[Kenneth La Torre]

You know whats funny, the divine dragon today showed equal power to zeno, but in reverse. Instead of destroying al universes, the dragon revived everysingle universe.

Btw, id argue that super shenron is actually superior to the angels as well. Zeno himself stated that the dragon does absolutely anything.

[Kataphrut]

Those poachers actually gave Goten and Trunks a pretty rough time lol. Both of them were very battle damaged. Marron on the other hand didn't have a single scratch on her face.

So Marron >> Goten and Trunks > Poachers?

[brett wheeler]

my tier list for the road, atleast till the movie lol ( not including zeno grand priest and the guards ).

angels
MUI goku/limit breaking power jiren
hakiashins/jiren FP/UI goku ( omen 129 )
SSBE vegeta final explosion/ssb vegito
GoD toppo final hakia/SSBE vegeta pride boost
GoD toppo/jiren hint of true power/merged zamasu full corruption giant
SSBE vegeta initial/ssj2 kefla rage attack/UI goku ( omen vs kefla )/rage trunks spirit sword ( bull shit I know but what you gonna do )
jiren ( suppressed vs UI omen goku 110 )/ssj2 kefla initial/merged zamasu full curruption
UI goku ( omen 110 )
U7 spirit bomb/ssj kefla fp/jiren ( suppressed vs ssb vegeta )
merged zamasu partial curruption
ssbkk*20 goku
ssbkk*10 goku/aniraza/hit time cage
merged zamasu initial
ssbkk goku/ssr goku black scythe/jiren exhausted ( 131 )
ssb goku/ssb vegeta/ssr goku black before anger scythe/true golden frieza/hit
ult. gohan/#17/ssg goku/ssg vegeta

I'm not giong any lower, cause the whole tier list would be long AF and I dont feel like doing that right now lol, but over all my tier list pretty good I think ( I know they said jiren was stronger than anything they have ever faced, but that doesnt mean his suppressed state was, let me explain vegeta says jirens energy is denser than anybody he ever faced, now while jiren is suppressed this does not effect his energies density just how much he shows off and if he doesnt know energy control than they can sense his hidden power, jiren didnt seem capable of that lvl of energy control, he was just strong thats all, yea he can rais and lower his energy, but frieza could do that and he never trained a day in his life until rof, so the ability isnt that hard I take it ).

[Kenneth La Torre]

Does anyone find it scary that super shenron can produce feats on zenos level, yet we know his creator is more powerful?

[brett wheeler]

Does anyone find it scary that super shenron can produce feats on zenos level, yet we know his creator is more powerful?

just shows whats out there in the multiverse, also it was already said super shenron can do anything if you wish for it, I think most people just didnt get the grasp of that till it was shown, I mean saying he can grant any wish is one thing, but seeing him reverse even zenos power is another.

[Bullza]

No reason for the 100+ million year old God of Destruction to be any different.

Well actually it is in this regard. This is just going by the manga because I can't remember exactly the comments in the anime though I assume it's pretty much the same.

Champa completely undermined Goku and Vegeta thinking them to be weak when he saw them on Beerus' planet and didn't event realise they were wearing weights. When Goku fights Botamo after exercising, Champa says he's actually pretty good and that was unexpected.

When he turns Super Saiyan he is completely shocked by it. When Vegeta turned Blue, Champa couldn't believe it.

Additionally all the other Gods were very shocked when Goku turned Blue at the Zen Exhibition. Beerus also didn't seem to know about Super Saiyan 3 either.

So I'd say there was no way at all that Champa was referring to Golden Frieza but just Final Form Frieza.

In a way it kinda makes sense. Vegeta was shown about to fight Frost in Base form before Magetta popped up. Whereas Final Form Frieza beat the tar out of Jimeze who beat around Base Gohan who was a match for Base Goku. Goku was also fighting Jimeze as a Super Saiyan himself.

Gohan was said to rival Blue Goku though. The reason he couldn't beat Toppo was likely because of his endurance. He did take a full power Kamehameha from Blue Goku without any serious injuries. He's a tank.

Yeah but he was more injured against Goku than Gohan. Goku was actually winning though maybe Toppo was holding back because Beerus said the two were equal. Gohan like Android 17 definitely wasn't equal to Toppo.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Does anyone find it scary that super shenron can produce feats on zenos level, yet we know his creator is more powerful?

just shows whats out there in the multiverse, also it was already said super shenron can do anything if you wish for it, I think most people just didnt get the grasp of that till it was shown, I mean saying he can grant any wish is one thing, but seeing him reverse even zenos power is another.

I wonder gow long till they introduce zalama. I'm certain goku will never get to his power, but I'm sure it would be like a zeno situation. Not a tournament per say, but appearing out of nowhere near an end of an arc.

[AvatarReiko]

So Jiren pulled a Natsu there and suddenly got stronger and nakama boost when Toppo made his nakama speach.

EDIT: Now that both shows are finished. Which one had better/more consistent power scaling? GT or Super

[Kenneth La Torre]

So Jiren pulled a Natsu there and suddenly got stronger and nakama boost when Toppo made his nakama speach.

Yes and no. I mean, he fid get a power boost, but all it did was get him from “immensly weakened” to “significantly weakened”.
And it seemed to have lasted only for a few seconds.
It still didnt get him powerful enought to handle ssj goku and freeza together.

[brett wheeler]

Does anyone find it scary that super shenron can produce feats on zenos level, yet we know his creator is more powerful?

just shows whats out there in the multiverse, also it was already said super shenron can do anything if you wish for it, I think most people just didnt get the grasp of that till it was shown, I mean saying he can grant any wish is one thing, but seeing him reverse even zenos power is another.

I wonder gow long till they introduce zalama. I'm certain goku will never get to his power, but I'm sure it would be like a zeno situation. Not a tournament per say, but appearing out of nowhere near an end of an arc.

probably, goku couldnt reach that power in all honesty as its not strength just omnipotence ( well atleast as close as you can get ), and lets be honest goku wants to be stronger and fight strong opponents, not be omnipotent and never be challenged, theres a reason he isnt aiming to fight zeno.

[brett wheeler]

So Jiren pulled a Natsu there and suddenly got stronger and nakama boost when Toppo made his nakama speach.

EDIT: Now that both shows are finished. Which one had better/more consistent power scaling? GT or Super

better writing, super easily, better power scaling, well thats harder but super just by hair tho lol. #fairyballsuper

[ZombieVito]

Well actually it is in this regard. This is just going by the manga because I can't remember exactly the comments in the anime though I assume it's pretty much the same.

Champa completely undermined Goku and Vegeta thinking them to be weak when he saw them on Beerus' planet and didn't event realise they were wearing weights. When Goku fights Botamo after exercising, Champa says he's actually pretty good and that was unexpected.

When he turns Super Saiyan he is completely shocked by it. When Vegeta turned Blue, Champa couldn't believe it.

Additionally all the other Gods were very shocked when Goku turned Blue at the Zen Exhibition. Beerus also didn't seem to know about Super Saiyan 3 either.

So I'd say there was no way at all that Champa was referring to Golden Frieza but just Final Form Frieza.

In a way it kinda makes sense. Vegeta was shown about to fight Frost in Base form before Magetta popped up. Whereas Final Form Frieza beat the tar out of Jimeze who beat around Base Gohan who was a match for Base Goku. Goku was also fighting Jimeze as a Super Saiyan himself.

Yeah but he was more injured against Goku than Gohan. Goku was actually winning though maybe Toppo was holding back because Beerus said the two were equal. Gohan like Android 17 definitely wasn't equal to Toppo.

You do have a point about Champa but then again, Vegeta fought Frost as a Super Saiyan and the latter did OK. I also find it very odd that after 3 transformations Frost would still be weaker than base Goku when his 3rd form wasn't exactly that far from him.

There's also the matter of Vegeta turning Super Saiyan to beat a severely weakened Frost in the U6 tournament. That makes absolutely no sense if Frost is base tier.

Jimeze only beat Gohan up because of IT. Freeza made that very clear.

Well, I never said they were equal. Toppo is stronger but not by much IMO.

[Bullza]

You do have a point about Champa but then again, Vegeta fought Frost as a Super Saiyan and the latter did OK. I also find it very odd that after 3 transformations Frost would still be weaker than base Goku when his 3rd form wasn't exactly that far from him.

Well perhaps Frost is above Base form but several notches below Super Saiyan and Frieza is about as strong as Super Saiyan or more even.