Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:38 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, DBS is over so I'll make my ranking

1- Zen'oh / Future Zen'oh
2- Daishinkan
3- Angels
4- MUI Goku
5- Jiren
6- SSB Vegetto / Hakaishins / UI Omen Goku / Vegeta (after power up in EP 126) / Toppo
7- Merged Zamasu
8 - SSJ2 Kefla
9 - Goku SSB KK x20 / Vegeta SSB Evolution (initial)
10 - Aniraza
11 - SSJ Kefla
12 - Golden Freeza / SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Toppo (base) / Dyspo (Maximum light speed mode)
13- SSJ Rosé Black
14 - SSJ Rage Trunks
15 - Hitto
16 - SSG Goku
17 - Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / SSJ Berserker Kale (dominated)
18 - Saonel / Pirina
19 - Koichiarator
20 - Piccolo / SSJ2 Caulifla / SSJ2 Kyabe / SSJ2 Future Trunks
21 - Zamasu
22 - Magetta
23 - Monna
24 - Final Form Freeza
25 - Frost

Some notes:

- I didn't necessarily put SSB Evolution Vegeta and ''Hakaishin mode Toppo'' on the same level as the Hakaishins and UI Omen Goku, it was just to make it clear that the two are in the same tier as they are, that is, they are comparable to them.

- I don't see Ultimate Gohan and android 17 at the same level as the SSG, at most above the Goku SSJ3.
What SSG are you referring to? current Goku's SSG or the when it first appeared in BoG. If it is the former I kind of agree if you mean the latter then I vehemently disagree
ZombieVito wrote:Any reason why people have Blue Goku and Vegeta over Black?

He was the strongest unfused character as confirmed by E65 and Goku and Vegeta barely trained after the arc. They should be equal at best.
Because Vegeta smacked Black during the tournament and went back into the RoSAT after the tournament. I am not sure about Goku but it would be nonsensical to me to put SSB vegeta and Black on the same level

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:00 pm

My current rankings
Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
MUI Goku
Jiren
Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
Other GOD
UI omen Goku
SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
ssj2 Kefla
Anilaza
Hit (with all of his abilities)
Golden Frieza/SSR Black/ssj Kefla/Toppo
17/base Kefla/Dyspo/SSR Trunks
SSG Goku/Ultimate Gohan/base Black/Hit (with just pure power)
SSB Kale/ssj Vegito (buu saga)/ssj3 Goku/Koichiarator/U6 namekians
ssj2 Goku/future Zamasu
ssj Goku/final form Frieza/Buuhan
ssj2 Caulifla
ssj2 Cabba/base Goku/base Vegeta
Monna/ssj Caulifla/Obuni/Magetta/Majin Buu
ssj Cabba/Bergamo/drugged Basil
Piccolo/final form Frost/Super Prefect Cell
18/Perfect Cell/base Gohan/base Cabba/base Caulifla
magical girls/Basil/Lavender/Tagoma/semi perfect Cell
Namek Frieza/ssj Goten and Trunks
Krillin/Tien/Roshi/Shisami/Ginyu force

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:41 pm

dragon boss z wrote:My current rankings
Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
MUI Goku
Jiren
Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
Other GOD
UI omen Goku
SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
ssj2 Kefla
Anilaza
Hit (with all of his abilities)
Golden Frieza/SSR Black/ssj Kefla/Toppo
17/base Kefla/Dyspo/SSR Trunks
SSG Goku/Ultimate Gohan/base Black/Hit (with just pure power)
SSB Kale/ssj Vegito (buu saga)/ssj3 Goku/Koichiarator/U6 namekians
ssj2 Goku/future Zamasu
ssj Goku/final form Frieza/Buuhan
ssj2 Caulifla
ssj2 Cabba/base Goku/base Vegeta
Monna/ssj Caulifla/Obuni/Magetta/Majin Buu
ssj Cabba/Bergamo/drugged Basil
Piccolo/final form Frost/Super Prefect Cell
18/Perfect Cell/base Gohan/base Cabba/base Caulifla
magical girls/Basil/Lavender/Tagoma/semi perfect Cell
Namek Frieza/ssj Goten and Trunks
Krillin/Tien/Roshi/Shisami/Ginyu force
1. Zeno (Based on his ability to erase everything, but I don’t think he’s a strong fighter. He can’t even follow mortals, moving at high speeds)
2. Grand Priest
3. Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Jiren
6. Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
7. Other GoD
8. UI omen Goku
9. SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
10. GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
11. SSR Trunks (if the form is attainable again)
12. SSJ2 Kefla
13. Anilaza
14. Hit (with all of his abilities)
15. Golden Frieza/SSR Black/Toppo
16. 17
17. Dyspo
18. Ultimate Gohan
19. Legendary form Kale
20. Piccolo
21. SSJ2 Goku
22. SSJ2 Gohan
23. SSJ2 Caulifla
24. Final Form Frost
25. SSJ2 Cabba

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Any reason why people have Blue Goku and Vegeta over Black?

He was the strongest unfused character as confirmed by E65 and Goku and Vegeta barely trained after the arc. They should be equal at best.
He was stronger than them in Episode 65 but it could be argued they weren't even using their full power at the time.

Shortly after Black, they fought Merged Zamasu and got stomped. It was only then did they say they were going to use full power and had more success against him, even destroying his Susanoo.

And also with Goku being fairly close to Zamasu and with his Kaioken stomping him then what room does that even leave between Black and Zamasu? Would he have even got half as strong again by fusing? That doesn't seem right at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:45 pm

larzooma wrote: [spoiler]1. Zeno (Based on his ability to erase everything, but I don’t think he’s a strong fighter. He can’t even follow mortals, moving at high speeds)
2. Grand Priest
3. Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Jiren
6. Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
7. Other GoD
8. UI omen Goku
9. SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
10. GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
11. SSR Trunks (if the form is attainable again)
12. SSJ2 Kefla
13. Anilaza
14. Hit (with all of his abilities)
15. Golden Frieza/SSR Black/Toppo
16. 17
17. Dyspo
18. Ultimate Gohan
19. Legendary form Kale
20. Piccolo
21. SSJ2 Goku
22. SSJ2 Gohan
23. SSJ2 Caulifla
24. Final Form Frost
25. SSJ2 Cabba[/spoiler]
Trunks went into SSR multiple times so he should be able to access it, but it shouldn't be above ssj2 Kefla. I think you are thinking of spirit sword Trunks with spirit energy. That isn't normal SSR.
And there is no way Piccolo is above ssj2 Goku. Ssj2 Goku was able to fight with mystic Gohan pretty well. He was around ssj2 Gohan level, who should be nowhere near ssj2 Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:56 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
larzooma wrote: [spoiler]1. Zeno (Based on his ability to erase everything, but I don’t think he’s a strong fighter. He can’t even follow mortals, moving at high speeds)
2. Grand Priest
3. Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Jiren
6. Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
7. Other GoD
8. UI omen Goku
9. SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
10. GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
11. SSR Trunks (if the form is attainable again)
12. SSJ2 Kefla
13. Anilaza
14. Hit (with all of his abilities)
15. Golden Frieza/SSR Black/Toppo
16. 17
17. Dyspo
18. Ultimate Gohan
19. Legendary form Kale
20. Piccolo
21. SSJ2 Goku
22. SSJ2 Gohan
23. SSJ2 Caulifla
24. Final Form Frost
25. SSJ2 Cabba[/spoiler]
Trunks went into SSR multiple times so he should be able to access it, but it shouldn't be above ssj2 Kefla. I think you are thinking of spirit sword Trunks with spirit energy. That isn't normal SSR.
And there is no way Piccolo is above ssj2 Goku. Ssj2 Goku was able to fight with mystic Gohan pretty well. He was around ssj2 Gohan level, who should be nowhere near ssj2 Goku.
SSJ2 Goku kept up with Ultimate Gohan, until Gohan powered up and began tossing SSJ2 Goku around, which is the point where he asked Goku to take it seriously. Piccolo showed he could outclass SSJ2 Gohan with relative ease. Saying he's "around SSJ2 Gohan's level is an understatement. He demonstrated a clear advantage in power, which Gohan's dialogue confirms, and we really didn't get to see a clear example of how strong he is going all out. He used his only on screen moment against Ultimate Gohan to teach a lesson, and they never really gave him that moment to prove himself in the tournament. I'd comfortably put him above SSJ2 Goku level pre-ToP. The reason I specify before the tournament began is Goku made significant gains as the tournament progressed, and SSJ2 Goku near the end of the ToP is something different than SSJ2 Goku before it began.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:57 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
1 - Goku (Ultra Instinct)
2 - Jiren (Strongest Warrior)
3 - Vegeta (Surpassed Limits)
4 - Toppo (God of Destruction)
5 - Hit (Time Freezing)
6 - Dyspo (Light Speed)
7 - Freeza (Golden Form)
8 - Goku Black (Light of Justice) (does he count as a "mortal"? :P)
9 - Trunks (Power of Rage)
10 - Kale (Berserker)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:18 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Any reason why people have Blue Goku and Vegeta over Black?

He was the strongest unfused character as confirmed by E65 and Goku and Vegeta barely trained after the arc. They should be equal at best.
He was stronger than them in Episode 65 but it could be argued they weren't even using their full power at the time.

Shortly after Black, they fought Merged Zamasu and got stomped. It was only then did they say they were going to use full power and had more success against him, even destroying his Susanoo.

And also with Goku being fairly close to Zamasu and with his Kaioken stomping him then what room does that even leave between Black and Zamasu? Would he have even got half as strong again by fusing? That doesn't seem right at all.
I wouldn't look to much into that to be honest. There's no reason for Vegeta to hold back in E64. I view it as them just giving them all they have in that rush attack.

I actually have Goku using Kaioken times 10 there. Also, Zamasu is very weak compared to them so Halo Zamasu can indeed have had that boost.
PFM18 wrote: Because Vegeta smacked Black during the tournament and went back into the RoSAT after the tournament. I am not sure about Goku but it would be nonsensical to me to put SSB vegeta and Black on the same level
He went there for 1 hour or two and still couldn't surpass Goku and Freeza. The boost was almost nothing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:36 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Just my point of view...

01. Son Gokū
02. Jiren
03. Vegeta
04. Son Gohan, Freeza, Top
05. Future Trunks, Hit, Dispo
06. No. 17, Kale
07. Saonail, Pilina
08. Majin Boo, Obuni
09. Piccolo, Cabba, Magetter
10. Frost
Honorable Mention: No. 18
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:26 am

PFM18 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, DBS is over so I'll make my ranking

1- Zen'oh / Future Zen'oh
2- Daishinkan
3- Angels
4- MUI Goku
5- Jiren
6- SSB Vegetto / Hakaishins / UI Omen Goku / Vegeta (after power up in EP 126) / Toppo
7- Merged Zamasu
8 - SSJ2 Kefla
9 - Goku SSB KK x20 / Vegeta SSB Evolution (initial)
10 - Aniraza
11 - SSJ Kefla
12 - Golden Freeza / SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Toppo (base) / Dyspo (Maximum light speed mode)
13- SSJ Rosé Black
14 - SSJ Rage Trunks
15 - Hitto
16 - SSG Goku
17 - Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / SSJ Berserker Kale (dominated)
18 - Saonel / Pirina
19 - Koichiarator
20 - Piccolo / SSJ2 Caulifla / SSJ2 Kyabe / SSJ2 Future Trunks
21 - Zamasu
22 - Magetta
23 - Monna
24 - Final Form Freeza
25 - Frost

Some notes:

- I didn't necessarily put SSB Evolution Vegeta and ''Hakaishin mode Toppo'' on the same level as the Hakaishins and UI Omen Goku, it was just to make it clear that the two are in the same tier as they are, that is, they are comparable to them.

- I don't see Ultimate Gohan and android 17 at the same level as the SSG, at most above the Goku SSJ3.
What SSG are you referring to? current Goku's SSG or the when it first appeared in BoG. If it is the former I kind of agree if you mean the latter then I vehemently disagree
Yes, it's the current SSG
ZombieVito wrote:Any reason why people have Blue Goku and Vegeta over Black?

He was the strongest unfused character as confirmed by E65 and Goku and Vegeta barely trained after the arc. They should be equal at best.
We do not know how much Goku and Vegeta trained during the Black and ToP saga, but at some point it happened (we see Vegeta training with Whis on EP 71). In recruitment, Vegeta also trained in RoSaT.

Anyway, the two got stronger during the tournament, so I do not see Goku and Vegeta SSB below Black currently
larzooma wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:My current rankings
Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
MUI Goku
Jiren
Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
Other GOD
UI omen Goku
SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
ssj2 Kefla
Anilaza
Hit (with all of his abilities)
Golden Frieza/SSR Black/ssj Kefla/Toppo
17/base Kefla/Dyspo/SSR Trunks
SSG Goku/Ultimate Gohan/base Black/Hit (with just pure power)
SSB Kale/ssj Vegito (buu saga)/ssj3 Goku/Koichiarator/U6 namekians
ssj2 Goku/future Zamasu
ssj Goku/final form Frieza/Buuhan
ssj2 Caulifla
ssj2 Cabba/base Goku/base Vegeta
Monna/ssj Caulifla/Obuni/Magetta/Majin Buu
ssj Cabba/Bergamo/drugged Basil
Piccolo/final form Frost/Super Prefect Cell
18/Perfect Cell/base Gohan/base Cabba/base Caulifla
magical girls/Basil/Lavender/Tagoma/semi perfect Cell
Namek Frieza/ssj Goten and Trunks
Krillin/Tien/Roshi/Shisami/Ginyu force
1. Zeno (Based on his ability to erase everything, but I don’t think he’s a strong fighter. He can’t even follow mortals, moving at high speeds)
2. Grand Priest
3. Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Jiren
6. Beerus/Quitela/Belmod/SSB Vegito
7. Other GoD
8. UI omen Goku
9. SSB2 Vegeta/KKx20 SSB Goku
10. GoD Toppo/Merged Zamasu
11. SSR Trunks (if the form is attainable again)
12. SSJ2 Kefla
13. Anilaza
14. Hit (with all of his abilities)
15. Golden Frieza/SSR Black/Toppo
16. 17
17. Dyspo
18. Ultimate Gohan
19. Legendary form Kale
20. Piccolo
21. SSJ2 Goku
22. SSJ2 Gohan
23. SSJ2 Caulifla
24. Final Form Frost
25. SSJ2 Cabba
Why Kyabe SSJ2 is weaker than Frost? Vegeta in SSJ won him easily and Kyabe only with SSJ at least is comparable to Vegeta.

I don't really see the difference between Beerus, Vermoud and Quitela in relation to other GoDs.
In the anime, they never showed to be more powerful than the others.

I also can't see Goku SSB KK x20 winning Toppo. Vegeta in his new form was being defeated and needed a power up after thinking about his family to win

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:31 am

larzooma wrote: SSJ2 Goku kept up with Ultimate Gohan, until Gohan powered up and began tossing SSJ2 Goku around, which is the point where he asked Goku to take it seriously.
Any version of ultimate Gohan is above Piccolo though. And Gohan tossed Goku around for a second, and then told Goku to power up. Who knows if Goku could of kept fighting at ssj2 or not. And an even weaker version of ultimate Gohan knocked Piccolo's arm off by accident.
Piccolo showed he could outclass SSJ2 Gohan with relative ease. Saying he's "around SSJ2 Gohan's level is an understatement. He demonstrated a clear advantage in power, which Gohan's dialogue confirms, and we really didn't get to see a clear example of how strong he is going all out.
Piccolo did not outclass ssj2 Gohan. He was matching him blow for blow, but then won because he was a way better fighter. He pretty much won in a similar way to how he almost beat Frost. But I would accept Piccolo being above ssj2 Gohan, but like I said, ssj2 Gohan is not ssj2 Goku level, not even close. The ssj2 Gohan Piccolo beat was likely buu saga ssj2 tier at best. Current ssj2 Goku is probably stronger than anyone from the Buu saga except maybe Vegito.
He used his only on screen moment against Ultimate Gohan to teach a lesson, and they never really gave him that moment to prove himself in the tournament. I'd comfortably put him above SSJ2 Goku level pre-ToP. The reason I specify before the tournament began is Goku made significant gains as the tournament progressed, and SSJ2 Goku near the end of the ToP is something different than SSJ2 Goku before it began.
Either way, nothing proves Piccolo is above ssj2 Goku. Judging by how he tried to fight Goku before the ToP, he isn't even base Goku level. He had to charge up one of his strongest attacks just to fight him.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: I don't really see the difference between Beerus, Vermoud and Quitela in relation to other GoDs.
In the anime, they never showed to be more powerful than the others.
In my list I put that because of what happened in the manga.
I also can't see Goku SSB KK x20 winning Toppo. Vegeta in his new form was being defeated and needed a power up after thinking about his family to win
I am kind of back and forth on this. I feel if this was the beginning of the ToP this would be true, but if feel like post ToP he might be able to pull it off.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:14 am

Unfused Mortals

1. UI Goku
2. Jiren
3. UI Omen Goku
4. SSBE Vegeta
5. GoD Toppo
6. Goku KKx20
7. Hit
8. Dyspo LSM
9-12. SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Toppo/Golden Freeza
13-14. Android 17/Dyspo
15-16. SSG Goku/Final Form Freeza
17-19. SSJ3 Goku/Kale/Gohan
20-21. SSJ2 Goku/SSJ2 Vegeta
Planet Namek Bred

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:45 am

PFM18 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Nope.

He strangled a SS2 Gohan who fought on par with Goku, who's base is stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

He's Makankosappo can also kill Blue tier fighters.


Let's see:

Goku
Jiren
Vegeta
Toppo
Freeza
Future Trunks
Gohan
Hit
17
Pirina
Have you guys heard of what an outlier is?

Because thats exactly what things like copy Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks, or base Goku and final form Freeza being godlike in comparison to everyone else are. They're outliers, because they aren't consistently shown to possess that level of strength, and it makes sense considering how everyone seems to be able to compete against the base saiyans after those arcs.
If Vegeta in base couldnt one shot Ssj3 Gotenks that would be a HUGE inconsistency. Like Beerus said Golu "made that power his own" when he lost SSG and so his normal super saiyan was roughly the same level and probably stronger than Super Saiyan God. Tagoma was said to be as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the buu saga, 1st form freeza had to have been atleast as strong and then upon using his final form he became ATLEAST 100x stronger from what we saw on Namek. (530k to 60M in his 50% final form state) and then Goku still defeated this Freeza with utmost ease. And then in the Universe 6 arc Goku makes Hit bleed with a hit in his base form. It is most definitely not an outlier. If Piccolo is on par with the current base saiyans that makes him stronger than everybody in Z except MAYBE super saiyan Vegetto. (But probably not)
Yeah, he did make that power his own and his a completely different fighter because of it. His strong enough in his base form to match up to Super Saiyans in the Buu arc. Not to mention his SS2 form was able to fight evenly with a powered up Ultimate Gohan, someone who was even stronger than SS3 in the Buu.

I would say those are massive increases in power that more than justify what we saw in those arcs.
PS: That Tagoma statement, as confirmed by like the 50 translators on this sight, was referring to Gohan at his current peak as of that day. Not his all time peak power.

Also, scratching a character if your at a certain level of strength is never really that implausible if the character was caught off-guard, which Hit was at the time, he was completely disarmed by the fact Goku had predicted his location and received damage because of it.
Helios518 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
You're following one instance as oppose to three instances showing the contrary? Please tell me of the other instances your talking about.

1. Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.

2. how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.

3. Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form.Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.

Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.

If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.
1. Oh I don't believe he's on par with SSJ2 Goku like the other. But Piccolo not phasing base Goku is actually supportstowards "Base Goku > Gotenks".

2. Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan. That's what Ultimate is. So of course, Gohan is on par with Piccolo at this point.

3. Kuririn pushing back Base Goku at all, regardless if Goku is above Gotenks or still Boo Arc base, is odd. That's more of problem with Kuririn moreso than Base Saiyans.
1. Again, I don't get that, since Piccolo is still slightly weaker than a weakened Super Saiyan 2 Gohan(he won that fight, not by raw power, but because Gohan was a moron). I don't see how that supports your theory, at best, it suggests that Goku is still in his buu arc levels of Super Saiyan power in his base form, but it doesn't establish anything besides that.

2. No, I disagree. Base Gohan, is base Gohan. He only turns ultimate when he specifically unleashes his full power and noticably has a bang(though there are a few exceptions to this rule)..

3. I think this more showcasing the series looser approach to power-scaling, espicially in this arc, in comparison to the rather rigid conventions of the earlier story, much less earlier installments.
ZombieVito wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.

Or how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.

Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form. Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.

Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.

If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.
If a cut in half dying Babidi can survive Vegeta's suicide explosion, then I don't see an issue with a healthy Goku doing that against Piccolo. Gohan was not at full power while fighting SS2 Goku.

The pre 118 Namek fight can't be used for anything since they weren't fighting seriously. Goku was also obviously holding back against Kuririn.
Again outliers. That Babidi thing is one of them.

Also, we've seen that attack before, in fact, it was used against Goku, when both of them were relatively comparable in power, and it failed, just like his attack in episode 90 did. I think that speaks pretty clearly about where he stands in comparison to the base Saiyans. His roughly even, or slightly weaker.

Also, only really Gohan wasn't fighting seriously during the Pre-118 Universe 6 Namek fight, everyone else was using the most power they had at their disposal at the time, and even then, Piccolo was ever so slightly outmatched, with Gohan having to save his ass multiple times throughout their fight.
The only different thing that changed in 118, was that Piccolo released his full power in the form of the SBC. Even then, he was still doing worse against the newly empowered Nameks than Gohan was, or was doing barely as well.

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Puaru
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Puaru » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:46 am

larzooma wrote: What are you talking about with the Kamehameha against Toppo? The intent was to push him from the ring, while 17 contained him in the bubble. Gohan stopped when Toppo twisted 17's arm causing him to drop the barrier. He didn't want to harm his teammate. Gohan entered the tournament on par with a fully powered SSJB Goku, and like the other Sayians, made gains as the challenges he faced pushed him to greater heights of power.
I'm not talking about THAT kamehameha, I'm talking about the other one. The one he fired directly at Toppo with Toppo not even having time to defend against it. And yet it did absolutely nothing, Toppo just smiled and said "So that's the extent of your power...".

Gohan never did anything against a strong character in the tournament. The only characters who are strong in the context of DBS are the ones with a god-level power. Characters like Freeza, 17 and Future Trunks are strong, but not Gohan.

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Helios518
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:52 am

JazzMazz wrote: 1. Again, I don't get that, since Piccolo is still slightly weaker than a weakened Super Saiyan 2 Gohan(he won that fight, not by raw power, but because Gohan was a moron). I don't see how that supports your theory, at best, it suggests that Goku is still in his buu arc levels of Super Saiyan power in his base form, but it doesn't establish anything besides that.

2. No, I disagree. Base Gohan, is base Gohan. He only turns ultimate when he specifically unleashes his full power and noticably has a bang(though there are a few exceptions to this rule)..
1. How does it not support the theory? Even a weakened SSJ2 is still way above Boo Arc level bases, and at the very least comparable to Cell Games SSJs. That doesn't even take into account the training that Gohan got from Piccolo after RoF, to get up to speed so he's probably even stronger than you're making him ought to be. Regardless Base Goku tanking an attack from a character that easily defeated said SSJ2 level character, is easily above Boo Arc level.

2. Well, If you're disagree with that possibility, then it can merely be Piccolo powering down to Base Gohan's level. Also if you want to say Base Gohan = Piccolo, then current Base Gohan is now above his previous SSJ2; putting him way above Boo Arc level base.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:46 am

JazzMazz wrote:Again outliers. That Babidi thing is one of them.

Also, we've seen that attack before, in fact, it was used against Goku, when both of them were relatively comparable in power, and it failed, just like his attack in episode 90 did. I think that speaks pretty clearly about where he stands in comparison to the base Saiyans. His roughly even, or slightly weaker.

Also, only really Gohan wasn't fighting seriously during the Pre-118 Universe 6 Namek fight, everyone else was using the most power they had at their disposal at the time, and even then, Piccolo was ever so slightly outmatched, with Gohan having to save his ass multiple times throughout their fight.
The only different thing that changed in 118, was that Piccolo released his full power in the form of the SBC. Even then, he was still doing worse against the newly empowered Nameks than Gohan was, or was doing barely as well.
You can throw that outliers excuse all you want. It doesn't erased what happened.

Pirina and Saonel themselves said they weren't fighting seriously until 118...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:06 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, DBS is over so I'll make my ranking

1- Zen'oh / Future Zen'oh
2- Daishinkan
3- Angels
4- MUI Goku
5- Jiren
6- SSB Vegetto / Hakaishins / UI Omen Goku / Vegeta (after power up in EP 126) / Toppo
7- Merged Zamasu
8 - SSJ2 Kefla
9 - Goku SSB KK x20 / Vegeta SSB Evolution (initial)
10 - Aniraza
11 - SSJ Kefla
12 - Golden Freeza / SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Toppo (base) / Dyspo (Maximum light speed mode)
13- SSJ Rosé Black
14 - SSJ Rage Trunks
15 - Hitto
16 - SSG Goku
17 - Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / SSJ Berserker Kale (dominated)
18 - Saonel / Pirina
19 - Koichiarator
20 - Piccolo / SSJ2 Caulifla / SSJ2 Kyabe / SSJ2 Future Trunks
21 - Zamasu
22 - Magetta
23 - Monna
24 - Final Form Freeza
25 - Frost
How Android 17 is the seventeenth tier on that list, if he was able resist both God Toppo and Jiren?
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:19 pm

How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:20 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).
Wanna know my secret?

I don't assume power levels are messed up based on a few inconsistencies.

I'm not as cynical as other folks around here present themselves as, and neither should you, at least in my own personal opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:32 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).
Every list is a guess at best. There is at least one thing directly contradicting even the most thought out ranking. We're mostly just doing it for fun.
Planet Namek Bred

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