Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SayianBeyondGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:05 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
SayianBeyondGod wrote:We should power scale Dragon ball Heroes characters.
Kinda nearly impossible. If you keep up with everything heroes related, youll see that certain characters fluctuate in power a lot throughout
The “series”.
As somone whom read the Heroes manga, seen the acarade games and seen the cutscenes, the power sclaing seems consistent enough.
Last edited by SayianBeyondGod on Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Apparently Xeno SSJ4 Goku is weaker than SSB Goku(5:52)
[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Wf0um0cg4[/spoiler]
- はぁはぁ・・・クソッ、そっちのオラのほうが一枚上だったか
- Haa Haa... Kuso, socchi no ora no hou ga ichimaiue datta ka
- Pants... Damn, that me over there was a cut above

一枚上 / ichimaiue basically means "one step above"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:20 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Rally 07 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: One: full power Super Saiyan has a greater multiplier than regular Super Saiyan.

Yes. However both grades of the Super Saiyan transformation has a bare minimum 50 times multiplier. It would make sense considering how Gokou and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms were superior to Vegeta and Future Trunks' Super Saiyan forms. Not to mention the Daizenshuu and El Manga Legendario confirm that the mastered Super Saiyan grade is superior to Super Saiyan. Even at the lookout, while using only half power, Gokou absolutely shocked everyone including Vegeta and Future Trunks, the same guys who unlocked Super Saiyan grades 2 and 3 which are more powerful than normal Super Saiyan. It pretty clear that grade 4 or mastered Super Saiyan is definitely more powerful, surpassing even grades 3 and 4.
SSJ Grade 4 being superior to SSJ doesn't mean it's referring to a power increase; we know that it's the same thing but with less stamina drain, therefore it's superior.
Not only this. Goku may have a greater battle power than Vegeta after mastering Super Saiyan, but it doesn’t mean his normal form didn’t get much stronger in proportion. Also, if we go by SEG, it really only refers to the form as Super Saiyan and it’s implied it has the same old multiplier that it had when Goku battled Freeza (at least, during Z era). If anything the only thing that is likely to have a multiplier other than Kaioken and Super Saiyan forms is fusion with the Potara earrings, as the guidebook suggests.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:27 am

Which character from Z would Tagoma be most comparable too? Cell?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:31 am

Bullza wrote:Which character from Z would Tagoma be most comparable too? Cell?
Probably Cell, yeah.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:10 pm

Gohan in the beginning of the Future Trunks arc was labeled as weaker than his Cell games self by Future Trunks and that's after he started reconditioning himself from the U6 arc.

Gohan during ROF isn't even close to his Cell games power if he still isn't even by the beginning of the FT arc. Tagoma even after powering up due to Ginyu's superior ki control wasn't a match for ROF SSJ Gohan. So there isn't anyway that Tagoma is close to Perfect Cell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:20 pm

Tagoma was said to be as strong as Base Gohan in peak condition. That Tagoma beat Piccolo like he was nothing.

So Gohan either had to be much stronger than at the Cell Games or the Base Saiyans were much stronger than we thought and them being weaker than Frieza was wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:54 pm

Personally, I interpret the whole ordeal as Future Trunks more likely referring to Gohan's nature and emotional state; he doesn't possess the intensity he once did against Cell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:13 pm

Bullza wrote:Which character from Z would Tagoma be most comparable too? Cell?
Given the parallels that it had with Goku vs. Freeza, specially when Gohan used Super Saiyan, I would say Tagoma is more likely comparable to Freeza from Namek.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:03 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Bullza wrote:Which character from Z would Tagoma be most comparable too? Cell?
Given the parallels that it had with Goku vs. Freeza, specially when Gohan used Super Saiyan, I would say Tagoma is more likely comparable to Freeza from Namek.
Just because the fight has parallels to Goku vs Freeza, doesn't mean they're close to that in power. Otherwise SSJB Goku = Namek SSJ Goku, and Golden Freeza = Namek Freeza just because the RoF fight had a parallel to the Namek fight. Even despite that, that would mean you place RoF Piccolo as less than Namek Freeza.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:37 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Bullza wrote:Which character from Z would Tagoma be most comparable too? Cell?
Given the parallels that it had with Goku vs. Freeza, specially when Gohan used Super Saiyan, I would say Tagoma is more likely comparable to Freeza from Namek.
Just because the fight has parallels to Goku vs Freeza, doesn't mean they're close to that in power. Otherwise SSJB Goku = Namek SSJ Goku, and Golden Freeza = Namek Freeza just because the RoF fight had a parallel to the Namek fight. Even despite that, that would mean you place RoF Piccolo as less than Namek Freeza.
In the movie version Gohan pretty much flat out compared himself to namek saga Goku though. Paraphrasing a bit "I don't think you understand the type of enemy Frieza is. It took my dad everything he had to win the last time they fought, and now he has powered up. I can't win."

Also Tagoma is said to be above the Ginyu force, but no mention of him being above any version of Frieza, and he is between rusty base and ssj Gohahn, while Beerus said a post Buu saga base Goku couldn't beat Frieza.

The Piccolo thing is what messes everything up, but it is highly likely the writers forgot Piccolo was stronger than Frieza was. I mean in the movie they made him have trouble with Shisami, who was never stated to have gotten stronger since being stated he was Dadoria/Zarbon level, and he even had some trouble with the Frieza fodder Roshi could stomp in Super. When they thought Krillin needed help they were actually able to block Piccolo and stop him from getting through, something they shouldn't be able to do to anyone above saiyan saga Vegeta level tbh.

The writing and power scaling for the RoF arc was all messed up. For me Tagoma could be in a few different spots.

Weakest he could possibly be is between Ginyu and first form Frieza from Namek.

If you scale off how strong Gohan should be he would be somewhere from around final form namek Frieza level, anywhere from suppressed up to full power.

If you scale off of how strong Piccolo should be then he would probably be somewhere from semi perfect Cell to regular perfect Cell.

If you highball he could maybe be ssj2 tier or so, but should definitely still be weaker than Buu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:05 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Given the parallels that it had with Goku vs. Freeza, specially when Gohan used Super Saiyan, I would say Tagoma is more likely comparable to Freeza from Namek.
Just because the fight has parallels to Goku vs Freeza, doesn't mean they're close to that in power. Otherwise SSJB Goku = Namek SSJ Goku, and Golden Freeza = Namek Freeza just because the RoF fight had a parallel to the Namek fight. Even despite that, that would mean you place RoF Piccolo as less than Namek Freeza.
In the movie version Gohan pretty much flat out compared himself to namek saga Goku though. Paraphrasing a bit "I don't think you understand the type of enemy Frieza is. It took my dad everything he had to win the last time they fought, and now he has powered up. I can't win."

Also Tagoma is said to be above the Ginyu force, but no mention of him being above any version of Frieza, and he is between rusty base and ssj Gohahn, while Beerus said a post Buu saga base Goku couldn't beat Frieza.
Honestly, that statement seems Gohan is just saying that Freeza is unrelenting (personality wise). Also Tagoma likely only stated he's above the Ginyu Force because it would be quite disrespectful to Freeza, if he were to say that he's stronger than him (at least back then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:55 pm

dragon boss z wrote: The Piccolo thing is what messes everything up, but it is highly likely the writers forgot Piccolo was stronger than Frieza was.
That's what I'm banking on, considering just how many jarring inconsistencies there have been with Piccolo's strength in the show.

I honestly don't understand this weird obsession with people wanting Tagoma to be strong. His power is never portrayed to be particularly threatening except in comparison to an extremely rusty Gohan, who was on two separate occasions implied to be weaker than he was during the Cell arc, and Piccolo. Then he's just casually one-shotted by a Super Saiyan Gotenks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:30 pm

I take into account though that many elements of this arc’s plot were present in Toriyama’s movie script for RF, like Tagoma being as excellent as a warrior as Zarbon and Dodoria (probably strength-wise). In the same script there was that controversial Freeza’s line that he would acquire a battle power of 1.3 million after training hard for 4 months, which didn’t make to the anime but it’s worth noting.

Perhaps (I could bet my income) Toriyama didn’t remember well the powerscalling of Freeza’s arc, let alone the others that followed up. He possibly had the 530,000 figure on his head when writing the script (there was even a song about Freeza that included this bit on its lyrics), or even basic ideas, like Goku beating Freeza with Super Saiyan (aka the very best of everything he had at that moment) and Piccolo and Gohan being strong if compared to Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Roshi.

What I want to say with this? I believe these elements may have influenced on the powerscalling of the movie and by extension the anime’s, making everyone (except for Goku, Vegeta and Freeza) be in a level that isn’t much different from when they fought Freeza on Namek.

By the way, this was pretty much the same discussion we had in the first 70 pages of this thread.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:53 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote: The Piccolo thing is what messes everything up, but it is highly likely the writers forgot Piccolo was stronger than Frieza was.
That's what I'm banking on, considering just how many jarring inconsistencies there have been with Piccolo's strength in the show.

I honestly don't understand this weird obsession with people wanting Tagoma to be strong. His power is never portrayed to be particularly threatening except in comparison to an extremely rusty Gohan, who was on two separate occasions implied to be weaker than he was during the Cell arc, and Piccolo. Then he's just casually one-shotted by a Super Saiyan Gotenks.
honestly I dont think tagoma is as powerful as people made him, but I think he probably is a good match for super perfect cell, hear me out here, gohan was rusty sure but you have to think about how strong he was in the buu saga and BoG ( not counting ultimate obviously ), in the buu saga they commented that gohan had surpassed ssj2 goku and vegeta before he went ultimate and while he was still in base, by this we can say its possible base gohan was above ssj2 goku and vegeta, ok so if he was that strong ( probably a little weaker ) in BoG even if he lost a good chunk of power ( witch was implied ), his ssj state should still be more than enough to take out a super perfect cell lvl worrier, this goes nicely with him being above piccolo ( someone who is comparable to perfect cell ) but below the likes of gotenks without retconning anyones power, this also makes sense for why they commented base gohan was the strongest person there even tho they didnt know he had ssj and was just assuming off his base state, honestly this whole arc is the most inconsistent out of any but if you want to make sense of it at all this is the best way, lastly gohan probably just couldnt maintain ssj because he hasnt used it in so long ( even in the 7 year time skip from cell to buu it was said he used it a lot so ofcourse he wouldnt be rusty whil in this arc he hasnt used it in atleast a year and a half ).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:18 pm

I don't think Tagoma would have to be as strong as Cell at his best or anything but if he can effortlessly one shot Piccolo (and that's before Ginyu took over) then he's probably far stronger than any Cell Jr.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:29 pm

Quick question: how strong is Jaco? could he been a good addition to the U-7's team? is he stronger than Mutenroshi, Tien or Krillin?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:27 am

Koitsukai wrote:Quick question: how strong is Jaco? could he been a good addition to the U-7's team? is he stronger than Mutenroshi, Tien or Krillin?
all things considering he wouldnt, he mostly relied on guns lasers and other stuff to compete much like low tier frieza soldiers do, while roshi could bare handed handle a large number at once, also joco had to rick and confuse a lot of the soldiers, roshi did not.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Pantalones » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:59 am

Quick question: how strong is Jaco? could he been a good addition to the U-7's team? is he stronger than Mutenroshi, Tien or Krillin?
Jaco back before beginning-of-Dragonball era was unable to handle any adult Saiyan, but strong enough to take on Saiyan children. So he was significantly weaker than somebody like Raditz back then (and probably by a good bit -- considering that somebody with a power level of 400ish could easily blow up the moon, I figure he was more in line with original Dragonball's levels than anything in Z.)

He's probably gotten stronger since then, but... considering that he goes out of his way to avoid fighting up close and personal with even weak Freeza soldiers, I still don't see him being anywhere near the level of the human fighters. Tenshinhan and Krillin should both at least be somewhere in the single digit millions (possibly higher, if Super randomly decided to give them a boost), while Roshi is... well, definitely higher than 139, but it's unclear just how much higher. It's difficult to imagine current Roshi having even a chance of losing against somebody like Raditz or even Nappa after his performance against Freeza's soldiers and then in the tournament, while Jaco comes across as someone who probably wouldn't want to fight Raditz and would run screaming from Nappa.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:43 am

brett wheeler wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote: The Piccolo thing is what messes everything up, but it is highly likely the writers forgot Piccolo was stronger than Frieza was.
That's what I'm banking on, considering just how many jarring inconsistencies there have been with Piccolo's strength in the show.

I honestly don't understand this weird obsession with people wanting Tagoma to be strong. His power is never portrayed to be particularly threatening except in comparison to an extremely rusty Gohan, who was on two separate occasions implied to be weaker than he was during the Cell arc, and Piccolo. Then he's just casually one-shotted by a Super Saiyan Gotenks.
honestly I dont think tagoma is as powerful as people made him, but I think he probably is a good match for super perfect cell, hear me out here, gohan was rusty sure but you have to think about how strong he was in the buu saga and BoG ( not counting ultimate obviously ), in the buu saga they commented that gohan had surpassed ssj2 goku and vegeta before he went ultimate and while he was still in base, by this we can say its possible base gohan was above ssj2 goku and vegeta, ok so if he was that strong ( probably a little weaker ) in BoG even if he lost a good chunk of power ( witch was implied ), his ssj state should still be more than enough to take out a super perfect cell lvl worrier, this goes nicely with him being above piccolo ( someone who is comparable to perfect cell ) but below the likes of gotenks without retconning anyones power, this also makes sense for why they commented base gohan was the strongest person there even tho they didnt know he had ssj and was just assuming off his base state, honestly this whole arc is the most inconsistent out of any but if you want to make sense of it at all this is the best way, lastly gohan probably just couldnt maintain ssj because he hasnt used it in so long ( even in the 7 year time skip from cell to buu it was said he used it a lot so ofcourse he wouldnt be rusty whil in this arc he hasnt used it in atleast a year and a half ).
I don't think it was stated Gohan became stronger than ssj2 Goku and Vegeta from the Z sword training. And even if that was the case he was ssj1 when fighting Tagoma, not ssj2. If it was a rusty ssj2 Goku that beat him I would say around perfect Cell level would make sense, but since it's rusty ssj1, I would say semi perfect Cell to Cell jr. range max.
Bullza wrote:I don't think Tagoma would have to be as strong as Cell at his best or anything but if he can effortlessly one shot Piccolo (and that's before Ginyu took over) then he's probably far stronger than any Cell Jr.
Like I mentioned it seems the writers of the episode may have forgotten how strong Piccolo was. In both the anime and manga Goku thought Piccolo was a better choice than rusty Gohan, and Piccolo was able to compete with final form Frost a bit, so based off of that there is really no logical reason for Tagoma to oneshot him. Based off of performance against Piccolo Tagoma looks stronger than final form Frost.

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