Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SayianBeyondGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Fri May 11, 2018 9:23 pm

Miracles wrote: A person can bump their elbow and be hurt for a moment and the pain goes away and they keep pushing. This is exactly what happened with Kefla. She received no damage to impair her. Goku's blows did nothing to change the outcome of the battle to his advantage. Kefla's one blow did by finishing Goku. Kefla's power was defined as her massive ENERGY riviling the energy of the Genki dama. No other way was her power compared to the Genki but only in ENERGY/POWER. Also your explanation about Piccolo's statements not being objective totally contradicts Piccolo being objective about both inciting the other to power up. If Kefla did not surpass former UI, but only SSJBKK, then Piccolo wouldn't need to hope for Kefla to incite current UI to power up more to surpass her. The action and words are against you.
That doesn't matter considering Whis and Roshi are already implying she's outmatched at her limits. She still failed to react to Goku move and was still struggling up while being really hurt. Her mental strive got nothing to do with the power and speed gap, while being stated to be outmatched by the spectators. You're over exaggerating, your same argument could be implied with base Vegeta taking Jiren's attacks, so by your logic Vegeta is holding back? Goku's clean punch alone already did significant damage to her with even the more credible commentary spectators believing Goku is having the advantaged, there's no otherway to argue against this beside denying the character statements. Again Kefla blow was due to Goku being weaken and drained from using his last move in kaioken, she didn't kick Goku at his better state.

Again the fact power was mention doesn't mean it literally compared in a way they're equal literally, it can be compared in terms of resulting affect or type of power. The rival statement with Blue Goku and Hakaishins make it evident that the show does it too. The fact Whis literally said "stimulus" already gave us the context of what kind of comparison he was trying to make. I told you many times what that words means, and it's implying that the comparison was the reaction response it had on Goku. Why are you discrediting what Whis says as part of his own statement and only taking into accountant what Beerus said?

Again Picoolo is saying "if" as in If the scenario was to play differently, he isn't saying Kefla is pushing Goku in anyway. Again Goku is still fatigue with UI Omen when facing Kefla with no boost from the spirit bomb hence why his attacks were a little off later. So it's possible the first Omen is stronger in power than the second. But despite that you have Picoolo statement of him referring to a earlier level and Vegeta implying Jiren much more powerful than other ki sensed being more suppressed than first UI Omen Goku. Ui Omen was still suppressed when powering up against Kefla so pushing him to little power doesn't contradict the she hasn't first Omen. I mean we've seen Goku use SSBKK against people weaker than Blue tiers before, similar could be said for this. The words aren't against me at all, if anything majority for even the other episode seem to support my argument.
Last edited by SayianBeyondGod on Fri May 11, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 11, 2018 9:24 pm

I'm going to stay away from the kefla subject and talk about something else.

I remember the whole UI Goku perhaps > Beerus, and i wanted to see exactly what it said.

Keep in mind, the same paragraph that mentions the quote, also mentions that this is episode 129.

https://ibb.co/duV7ad

This is the rought google translate version

As I thought, in 129 episodes, Goku successfully succeeded in winning the new form "the selfishness of selfishness" that had begun to awaken from the past. The whole body shone silver and I gained the power to fight equally with Siren. Its battle capability was enough to say that destruction God of the seventh universe, Pils "beyond me ..."


This is my miniscule corrections of mispelled names

As I thought, in episode 129 , Goku successfully succeeded in obtaining the new form "the selfishness of selfishness" that had begun to awaken from the past. The whole body shone silver and I gained the power to fight equally with Jiren. Its battle capability was enough to for the destruction God of the seventh universe, Beerus, to say "beyond me ..."


So keep in mind this is all just for episode 129.

So these are some points

1. It mentions that Gokus body shone silver, not his hair (is important to note this do to my 2nd point)

2. It states that it allowed Goku to fight “equally” with jiren, not outmatch him

3. Beerus doesnt say “perhaps”, instead says “beyond me...”

Now, the question is wether its referencing UI or UI omen. And honestly, its difficult to determine... It said that his body shone silver, and it allowed Goku to fight evenly with Jiren. As we all know, Gokus completed UI absolutely murder stomps jiren in 129, but gokus UI omen DOES fight evenly with jiren. What makes it confusing is the whole “body shone silver” unless they mean UI omen gokus aura when it grew in size.

Anyway, if it indeed is talking about Completed UI goku, then It means that Only then is he stronger than beerus, and not with Omen. It also means that beerus and Jiren are probably very, very close in power, which means that belmod really isnt all that compared to beerus, However, in 130, LB jiren overpowers The UI goku that was stated by beerus to be “beyond me...”


My conclusion if it was completed UI goku

UI omen Goku < or = Jiren = or < Beerus < UI Goku (129, first half of 130) < LB jiren < or = UI goku (Friendship boost) < enraged UI goku.


My conclusion if it was UI omen Goku

Beerus < UI omen goku < or = Jiren < UI Goku (129, first half of 130) < LB jiren < or = UI goku (Friendship boost) < enraged UI goku.


In my eyes, regardless of which one, it shows that LB Jiren and completed UI goku are above beerus (regardless if beerus is beyond normal jiren and UI omen goku), as his quote was from episode 129 (to either UI omen or completed UI omen).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri May 11, 2018 9:35 pm

I think we'd need something a little more substantial than Google Translate. Herms said it says "might". Maybe a second opinion from someone else fluent?

Whatever the case, I wouldn't doubt that Ultra Instinct Goku surpassed Beerus, but it's definitely strange that a magazine article attributed that quote to Beerus himself even though he never mentioned it in the anime proper. I know we've seen a lot of things thrown around in various articles and summaries that weren't available in the show, but this might be the first instance of actual character dialogue being absent.

It's kind of bizarre to be honest, and it does make me wonder if there were last-minute omissions to the scripting for some reason.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Fri May 11, 2018 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 11, 2018 9:40 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:I wouldn't doubt that Ultra Instinct Goku surpassed Beerus, but it's definitely strange that a magazine article attributed that quote to Beerus himself even though he never mentioned it in the anime proper. I know we've seen a lot of things thrown around in various articles and summaries that weren't available in the show, but this might be the first instance of actual character dialogue being absent.

It's kind of bizarre to be honest, and it does make me wonder if there were last-minute omissions to the scripting for some reason.
I also believe is something that they intended to write in the anime, but somehow they just didn't do it, so they instead wrote it off in second source material.

These statements are something that i expect the manga to do. As the manga has no problem stating where very important characters stand (ssb vegito ~ Beerus and Completed SSB being “a million years to early” for beerus and jiren (surprised they actually used the 1,000,000 year line for both beerus and jiren))

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 11, 2018 9:42 pm

Hearms also thought it was or episode 130, yet it says clearly 129. Tho the “beyond me...” its actually there. I dont need google translate for that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 12, 2018 4:20 am

Gonna have another crack at doing a ranking list Post-Card information.

Zen-Oh

Grand Priest

Vados
Whis

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren (Hidden Power)

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Jiren (Full Power)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Champa | God of Destruction Toppo

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla
Sword of Hope Trunks

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2
Dyspo (Maximum Mode)
Fused Zamasu (Halo)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks
Hit

Kefla
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Ultimate Gohan
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Android 17
Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla | Cabba
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Final Form Frieza

Monna
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Super Ribrianne
Jimeze
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Beerus ("10%")
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus (Suppressed)

Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Z)
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Piccolo
Basil | Lavender
Android 18
Ribrianne
Tagoma

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Sat May 12, 2018 7:04 am

Bullza wrote:Gonna have another crack at doing a ranking list Post-Card information.

Zen-Oh

Grand Priest

Vados
Whis

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren (Hidden Power)

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Jiren (Full Power)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Champa | God of Destruction Toppo

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla
Sword of Hope Trunks

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2
Dyspo (Maximum Mode)
Fused Zamasu (Halo)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks
Hit

Kefla
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Ultimate Gohan
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Android 17
Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla | Cabba
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Final Form Frieza

Monna
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Super Ribrianne
Jimeze
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Beerus ("10%")
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus (Suppressed)

Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Z)
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Piccolo
Basil | Lavender
Android 18
Ribrianne
Tagoma
- Vados was stronge than Whis. Now they're at the same level, just like the Gods of Destruction.
- UI Omen Goku isn't stronger than FP Jiren, we clearly see that in episode 129.
- SsjB Vegito is too high. In episode 110, a heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be the strongest person U7 have ever faced. Considering that Shin saw the entire fight with Zamasu, we can say: Jiren (ep. 110) > SsjB Vegito >= Half Corrupted Zamasu.
- Beerus is not weaker than Vegito. You guys need to stop confusing the manga with the anime, they're vastly different.
- Why is Ssj Kefla above SsjR Genki-sword Trunks?
- Hit isn't that weak. Goku himself said that he got stronger, and Jiren admitted he was one of the warriors he was needed for.
- There's no way Saonel and Pirina are stronger than Koichiarator. He required two SsjB's and Ultimate Gohan in order to be beaten.
- You put 17 below Ssj Berserker Kale when the former did well against FP Jiren, and the latter was one-shotted by a much weaker version of the Gray. 17 is clearly SsjB tier in the anime, maybe above that.
- Ssj2 Future Trunks is obviously stronger than Ssj2 Caulifla and Cabbe.
- Future Zamasu is not weaker than a Ssj2 in the anime, he fought on par with Blue tier fighters many times, and no, immortality can't make you do that.
- Final form Freeza is God tier, you can clearly see this during his fights with Jimeze and especially Dyspo. Plus, he was willing to fight both Kale and Caulifla at the same time, two foes who were giving Ssj2 Goku trouble.
- I don't think Piccolo's weaker than Drugged Basil, but that's just my opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 12, 2018 7:21 am

Welp, time to bring up base forms again!

It's kinda like the "AND THEN BROLY SHOWS UP!" TFS joke for this thread :lol:

In the last episode of DBS, Freeza and Goku in their base forms are taking on Jiren in a full-on assault while 17 provides ranged support. The two of them seem to be doing equally well. Well, more like equally "badly", anyways.

Anyways, after Goku throws Freeza at Jiren, he then charges at Jiren when Freeza can't take Jiren out with him; his body is unable to fully turn Super Saiyan, but he massively pushes Jiren forward with Freeza's help as he dips in and out of his transformation.

Both of them were running pretty low on their tanks, but they still seemed to have performed relatively evenly against Jiren. To me, at least, this is a good enough indication that Final Form Freeza is either as strong as base Goku or Super Saiyan Goku; either one is fine with me, as both paint the base and Super Saiyans shown being competitive with Goku and Vegeta as extraordinarily strong and nowhere near as low as "DBZ levels".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 12, 2018 7:42 am

Miracles wrote:The fact is Goku never demonstrated ANY dominance over Kefla, numbing her arms or gut punching her into ruble means NOTHING when Kefla stated she was "far from over." None of Goku's blows could put Kefla down for good or make her movements sluggish.
It was explained by Whis that it was Kefla’s Saiyan spirit (in a metaphorical way) that kept her fighting back, not her hidden strength or anything like that. She is pretty much an example of Saiyan-improving-in-the-middle-of-battle trait. Beerus told Goku to finish that fight while he was still with the advantage.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 12, 2018 7:51 am

Zamasu55 wrote:- UI Omen Goku isn't stronger than FP Jiren, we clearly see that in episode 129.
He kinda seemed like he was right at the end when he was pushing through Jiren's attacks.
- SsjB Vegito is too high. In episode 110, a heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be the strongest person U7 have ever faced. Considering that Shin saw the entire fight with Zamasu, we can say: Jiren (ep. 110) > SsjB Vegito >= Half Corrupted Zamasu.
That's a good point I suppose. Unless Shin was taking into account him overall and knowing that he was still holding back.

Wouldn't it also mean Ultra Instinct Omen Goku would be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito as well even though at the time he was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla? Then there's some other quibbles.
- Beerus is not weaker than Vegito. You guys need to stop confusing the manga with the anime, they're vastly different.
Well it's not really contradicted that I know of.
- Why is Ssj Kefla above SsjR Genki-sword Trunks?
Not much of a reason. Super Saiyan Kefla had power that rivals the Spirit Bomb. Trunks got his power from you'd think would be a weaker Spirit Bomb
- Hit isn't that weak. Goku himself said that he got stronger, and Jiren admitted he was one of the warriors he was needed for.
I placed him sort of on power level alone. When you include all his abilities then he'd be a lot higher but physically he's not impressive especially by Super Saiyan Blue standards.

-
You put 17 below Ssj Berserker Kale when the former did well against FP Jiren, and the latter was one-shotted by a much weaker version of the Gray. 17 is clearly SsjB tier in the anime, maybe above that.
That's true. I can't remember any specific moments where Jiren attacked Android 17. Was he blasted at some point and remained alright when compared to Kale? Kale was hit with a pretty big attack, one that took out Hit and almost Vegeta I think.
- Ssj2 Future Trunks is obviously stronger than Ssj2 Caulifla and Cabbe.
What makes you think that?
- Future Zamasu is not weaker than a Ssj2 in the anime, he fought on par with Blue tier fighters many times, and no, immortality can't make you do that.
Yeah but he never did anything to them. He was kicked around pretty much all the time. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks over powered him and would have killed him had he not been immortal and then he fought Super Saiyan Trunks later on and still didn't that great against him.
- Final form Freeza is God tier, you can clearly see this during his fights with Jimeze and especially Dyspo. Plus, he was willing to fight both Kale and Caulifla at the same time, two foes who were giving Ssj2 Goku trouble.
I can't see that making any sense. He even made a comment to Aniraza about how he attacked him over Super Saiyan God Goku because he was weaker. He transformed for Cabba. Jimeze isn't much of a feat. Other things seem to put him at Base or Super Saiyan level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Sat May 12, 2018 8:03 am

Bullza wrote:Gonna have another crack at doing a ranking list Post-Card information.

Zen-Oh

Grand Priest

Vados
Whis

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren (Hidden Power)

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Jiren (Full Power)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Champa | God of Destruction Toppo

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla
Sword of Hope Trunks

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2
Dyspo (Maximum Mode)
Fused Zamasu (Halo)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks
Hit

Kefla
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Ultimate Gohan
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Android 17
Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla | Cabba
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Final Form Frieza

Monna
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Super Ribrianne
Jimeze
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan | Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla

Beerus ("10%")
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus (Suppressed)

Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Z)
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Piccolo
Basil | Lavender
Android 18
Ribrianne
Tagoma
Why is 18 lower than Super Ribrianne when we saw her beating an even stronger Ribrianne? Did you not watch episode 117 or something?
Last edited by TheDipDap1234 on Sat May 12, 2018 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 12, 2018 8:09 am

Something I just remembered is that, when Freeza betrays Frost, he tells him that there's a way to use the full-power that they received from bulking their bodies up without the downsides that they gained from doing so.

It could be that Freeza's "usual" full-power base is around the level of base Goku, but when he uses that method of using "true" full-power without bulking up, he'd end up about as strong as Super Saiyan Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat May 12, 2018 8:12 am

Bullza wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:- Final form Freeza is God tier, you can clearly see this during his fights with Jimeze and especially Dyspo. Plus, he was willing to fight both Kale and Caulifla at the same time, two foes who were giving Ssj2 Goku trouble.
I can't see that making any sense. He even made a comment to Aniraza about how he attacked him over Super Saiyan God Goku because he was weaker. He transformed for Cabba. Jimeze isn't much of a feat. Other things seem to put him at Base or Super Saiyan level.
I think Freeza being SS tier or slightly above would make sense in making him roughly as powerful as Frost is his final form. I think that's pretty much the idea that the anime and manga were trying to create when comparing the two.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Sat May 12, 2018 8:13 am

How strong was Napapa? I'm rewatching the ToP and I noticed that he was doing pretty good against SSJ Caulifla. Not only did he push her to the edge of the arena quite easily, but SSJ Caulifla had to power up even further to pick him up, and even then she still couldn't pick him up perfectly. Didn't this guy almost lose to Basil?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 12, 2018 8:18 am

TheDipDap1234 wrote:How strong was Napapa? I'm rewatching the ToP and I noticed that he was doing pretty good against SSJ Caulifla. Not only did he push her to the edge of the arena quite easily, but SSJ Caulifla had to power up even further to pick him up, and even then she still couldn't pick him up perfectly. Didn't this guy almost lose to Basil?
His physique and fighting style seemed to be perfectly suited to raw pushing matches; he's a master sumo wrestler, after all.

It seems that SS Caulifla needed to use more of her power to account for the difference in physicality.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 12, 2018 11:05 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: In the last episode of DBS, Freeza and Goku in their base forms are taking on Jiren in a full-on assault while 17 provides ranged support. The two of them seem to be doing equally well. Well, more like equally "badly", anyways.
Everyone was extremely exhausted (likely to varying degrees) and running on fumes during that last fight, including Jiren. That doesn't even begin to tell us how base Goku and Frieza would compare at their best.

Frieza should still be well above all of Goku and Vegeta's non-godly Super Saiyan forms in his Final Form, maybe somewhere around 17's level as the cards seem to imply. He made quick work of Jimeze and toyed with a fairly serious Dyspo. He transformed against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba, but then implied that he was overcompensating afterwards.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sat May 12, 2018 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 12, 2018 11:06 am

TheDipDap1234 wrote:Why is 18 lower than Super Ribrianne when we saw her beating an even stronger Ribrianne? Did you not watch episode 117 or something?
Well it sort of seemed as though Android 18 may have had a power up when she defeated Ribrianne in the end and broke free but I'm not 100% sure.

Super Ribrianne was stronger than Base Goku and it did seem like Android 18 was stronger than Giant Ribrianne.

Does that mean Android 18 is above Base Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 12, 2018 11:13 am

Bullza wrote: Does that mean Android 18 is above Base Goku?
I don't see why she wouldn't be. She easily lifted Tupper in his weighted form when base Goku couldn't in the anime and needed Super Saiyan to lift him in the manga. Then there's the whole Ribrianne thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 12, 2018 11:28 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: In the last episode of DBS, Freeza and Goku in their base forms are taking on Jiren in a full-on assault while 17 provides ranged support. The two of them seem to be doing equally well. Well, more like equally "badly", anyways.
Everyone was extremely exhausted (likely to varying degrees) and running on fumes during that last fight, including Jiren. That doesn't even begin to tell us how base Goku and Frieza would compare at their best.

Frieza should still be well above all of Goku and Vegeta's non-godly Super Saiyan forms in his Final Form, maybe somewhere around 17's level as the cards seem to imply. He made quick work of Jimeze and toyed with a fairly serious Dyspo. He transformed against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba, but then implied that he was overcompensating afterwards.
I don't know...... the cards aren't really things we should be looking at for anything serious given the inconsistencies already pointed out, Freeza is naturally a tough sonuvabitch that can take beatings like a champ, and he beat Jimeze through his knowledge of Instantaneous Movement; Goku and Gohan seemed to have required Super Saiyan because they aren't as adept at countering it. Heck, even Caulifla learns to counter the Instantaneous Movement when she's fighting Goku.

Thematically, I think it makes sense for Freeza and Goku to be relatively even in lower forms; keep the two of them competitive with one another, like Goku and Vegeta. After all, they made his Golden form equivalent to the much stronger SSB forms that Goku and Vegeta now possess, why not his base form too? It also doesn't devalue how strong Goku and Vegeta have gotten in their normal forms.

I would be perfectly fine with putting Freeza at the level of Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyans with his full base power, but I feel like anything higher is too much and doesn't fit the rivalry he has with Goku; equivalent god-level forms and equivalent normal forms seems to be the name of the game.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 12, 2018 1:14 pm

SayianBeyondGod wrote:That doesn't matter considering Whis and Roshi are already implying she's outmatched at her limits. She still failed to react to Goku move and was still struggling up while being really hurt. Her mental strive got nothing to do with the power and speed gap, while being stated to be outmatched by the spectators. You're over exaggerating, your same argument could be implied with base Vegeta taking Jiren's attacks, so by your logic Vegeta is holding back? Goku's clean punch alone already did significant damage to her with even the more credible commentary spectators believing Goku is having the advantaged, there's no otherway to argue against this beside denying the character statements. Again Kefla blow was due to Goku being weaken and drained from using his last move in kaioken, she didn't kick Goku at his better state.

Again the fact power was mention doesn't mean it literally compared in a way they're equal literally, it can be compared in terms of resulting affect or type of power. The rival statement with Blue Goku and Hakaishins make it evident that the show does it too. The fact Whis literally said "stimulus" already gave us the context of what kind of comparison he was trying to make. I told you many times what that words means, and it's implying that the comparison was the reaction response it had on Goku. Why are you discrediting what Whis says as part of his own statement and only taking into accountant what Beerus said?

Again Picoolo is saying "if" as in If the scenario was to play differently, he isn't saying Kefla is pushing Goku in anyway. Again Goku is still fatigue with UI Omen when facing Kefla with no boost from the spirit bomb hence why his attacks were a little off later. So it's possible the first Omen is stronger in power than the second. But despite that you have Picoolo statement of him referring to a earlier level and Vegeta implying Jiren much more powerful than other ki sensed being more suppressed than first UI Omen Goku. Ui Omen was still suppressed when powering up against Kefla so pushing him to little power doesn't contradict the she hasn't first Omen. I mean we've seen Goku use SSBKK against people weaker than Blue tiers before, similar could be said for this. The words aren't against me at all, if anything majority for even the other episode seem to support my argument.
Piccolo is stating "IF" as there may be a chance for Kefla to move CURRENT UI Goku to power up even more. That is an objective hope from Piccolo concerning the former fact about the two Saiyans inciting both to power up one after another. Same with Kefla's SSJ1's power CLEARLY DEFINED as "MASSIVE ENERGY" being equal to the Genki Dama. Nothing vague about this blatant statement. You keep spreading headcannons about KKBlue Goku being stronger than Kefla. When NONE of his attacks [including his final kamehameha which was dismissed by ki blasts] during his KKBlue duration finished her. Even the Kai thought the gut punched finished her but did NOT. The character statements were overruled by the action. Kefla even stated she was "far from over" and then one shots Goku's KK Blue. You need to stop ignoring the facts in favor of your headcannons and using terrible examples like base Vegeta taking powered up Jiren's punches when Vegeta's endurance was surely based on his spirit/saiyan pride as the episode stated/showed compared to Kefla whom Goku said things would be bad if he didn't use Blue/KK. Meaning their battle was power based.
Hugo Boss wrote:It was explained by Whis that it was Kefla’s Saiyan spirit (in a metaphorical way) that kept her fighting back, not her hidden strength or anything like that. She is pretty much an example of Saiyan-improving-in-the-middle-of-battle trait. Beerus told Goku to finish that fight while he was still with the advantage.
Goku had no advantage tho, Kefla wasn't weakening at all and not evne his strongest attack could blow her away. Whis statement about Kefla's Saiyan blood driving her is in the context of Roshi saying she is passed her limits just like Goku was...Saiyans go above and beyond the call of duty in battle. The theme of the arc. That is also alluding to her power especially when Whis stated Goku had no choice to use KK Blue against Kefla's "terrifying power."

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