Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu May 31, 2018 9:09 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: It's not quite as simple as that; the very next episode shows that turning Super Saiyan is something Goku likes to do to when sparring and when he wants to show his opponents that he's getting stronger, even while suppressed.
It is as simple as that. There's nothing vague about the scene whatsoever beyond pure disingenuousness by people who refuse to believe that Goku and Gohan could possibly be comparable in the same forms.

Not sure why you're mentioning Krillin as if that somehow exposes a fallacy in my point. It doesn't. If Goku wasn't specifically stated or implied to be holding back against Krillin in Super Saiyan either, there's no argument to make. Your point is completely moot here.

The only person in this thread trying to "have their cake and eat it too" is the guy selectively attributing a critique on my debate etiquette compared to everyone else. It's a discussion forum; don't expect me to forfeit calling a bullshit "interpretation" attempting to tip-toe around the facts exactly what it is.
So you are saying that Goku actually NEEDED Super Saiyan against Krillin? You don't think that there is any chance of an alternative explanation?

User avatar
supersaiyangodgogeta
Regular
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu May 31, 2018 9:10 pm

PFM18 wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:You've posted zero evidence that Goku transformed to show "a clear increase in power". Nothing whatsoever. You're saying I'm twisting the argument but if you're claiming that Base Goku>SSJ Gohan that's ultimately what you have to claim. You would have to claim that Goku was using less power in SSJ than he's capable of in base.

But nothing implies it and instead, Goku is shown using power above his base state with nothing stating that he was using less power than base.
Goku powered up above his base form and even then didn't overwhelm Gohan. That's what's shown. You can't post anything from the fight that supports what you're claiming.
Dude, do you even read what I say?

I literally just clarified that I was NOT saying that Goku's SSJ state was NOT using less power than his Base state. I only acknowledged that it is possible.

Suppressed Goku goes Super Saiyan and he is still suppressed. it is not rocket science.
I wasn't responding to you. And your post isn't worth addressing based on the amount of conjecture you keep trying to inject in the story and passing it off as "reasonable doubt". If you're claiming that it's a possibility and not an absolute, you still haven't posted anything that would reasonably allow that doubt to exist.

Once you post an iota of evidence that Base Goku eclipses Gohan's power even though he deemed Gohan's power adequate for Super Saiyan after he was finished testing Gohan's strength, then we can have an honest discussion. But you're going to have to drop your bias.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu May 31, 2018 9:22 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:You've posted zero evidence that Goku transformed to show "a clear increase in power". Nothing whatsoever. You're saying I'm twisting the argument but if you're claiming that Base Goku>SSJ Gohan that's ultimately what you have to claim. You would have to claim that Goku was using less power in SSJ than he's capable of in base.

But nothing implies it and instead, Goku is shown using power above his base state with nothing stating that he was using less power than base.
Goku powered up above his base form and even then didn't overwhelm Gohan. That's what's shown. You can't post anything from the fight that supports what you're claiming.
Dude, do you even read what I say?

I literally just clarified that I was NOT saying that Goku's SSJ state was NOT using less power than his Base state. I only acknowledged that it is possible.

Suppressed Goku goes Super Saiyan and he is still suppressed. it is not rocket science.
I wasn't responding to you. And your post isn't worth addressing based on the amount of conjecture you keep trying to inject in the story and passing it off as "reasonable doubt". If you're claiming that it's a possibility and not an absolute you still haven't posted anything that would reasonably allow that doubt to exist.
Once you post an iota of evidence that Base Goku eclipses Gohan's power even though he deemed Gohan's power adequate for Super Saiyan after he was finished testing Gohan's strength, then we can have an honest discussion. But you're going to have to drop your bias.
Okay, let's do this, then.

Goku is equal to Freeza who surpassed SS Gohan. Goku is equal to Copy-Vegeta who is equal to Vegeta who is greater than SS3 Gotenks. Goku in SS2 is equal to an Ultimate Gohan even stronger than his original Ultimate self after training with Piccolo whom defeated him in his untrained base, SS and SS2 forms. Goku is able to take on the strongest of the Trio De Dangers, Bergamo, in his base form even though Bergamo was stated to be the strongest even after Drugged Basil made his debut and took on Majin Buu, a Majin Buu that got even faster and yet Goku was still taking him on fine later on. Goku exchanges blows with the newly strengthened Freeza from Hell whom is even stronger than when he invaded Earth. Goku takes a charged-up Hyper Explosive Demon Wave from the Piccolo that defeated the untrained base/SS/SS2 Gohan in a similar manner to when he took the attack during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai when him and Piccolo were relatively even in strength.

User avatar
supersaiyangodgogeta
Regular
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu May 31, 2018 9:27 pm

And what part of any of that disproves the notion of Gohan competing with Goku in the same form as was already shown?

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu May 31, 2018 9:35 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:And what part of any of that disproves the notion of Gohan competing with Goku in the same form as was already shown?
Did you not read through my blurb?

By being able to take foes greater than SS Gohan in his base form LIKE PICCOLO, MAJIN BUU, OR FREEZA, Goku was considered stronger than him; the excuse of "retcons/filler" also doesn't work here because we're discussing what many already consider "filler" AND later material that's the most up-to-date.

User avatar
supersaiyangodgogeta
Regular
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu May 31, 2018 9:42 pm

Base Goku was never shown to be able to beat Piccolo or Final Form Frieza during the TOP. So no, absolutely not.
The opposite is supported as Final Form Frieza is shown beating Jimeze easily and Gohan would've needed Super Saiyan to replicate the same feat as stated. That same base Gohan is relative to base Goku and Goku is shown fighting Jimeze as a Super Saiyan. Or are you going to claim that it's "possible" that Goku was massively suppressing his base power against Gohan in their second fight as well and used Super Saiyan against Jimeze for no reason?

I don't know what Boo has to do anything. Nothing implies that Boo was stronger than SSJ Gohan, so saying that Goku fought Slim Boo is a meaningless comparison.
Last edited by supersaiyangodgogeta on Thu May 31, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu May 31, 2018 9:51 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:And what part of any of that disproves the notion of Gohan competing with Goku in the same form as was already shown?
Be honest with me....

Do you read what you are responding to? It doesnt appear to be so

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu May 31, 2018 10:57 pm

PFM18 wrote: I never said otherwise nor did I imply it? What are you talking about dude? I didn't say that Basil wasn't stronger than the other U9 members either. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion.
Maybe you should read our whole back-and-forth. That post you replied to where you put words in my mouth and said it was another example of me thinking that only my interpretation is correct is the exact same post where I said (word for word) "I don't know if they're actually weaker than Namek Frieza, but they're certainly not nearly as strong as Buu". I never claimed that they were definitely weaker than Namek Frieza like it was a fact; I'm just maintaining that they're at least far weaker than Buu because that's how the show portrays them.

You quoted a single part of my post and ignored the rest that directly addresses what you said in your response. I have no idea how you can accuse other people of not reading what they're responding to when you've clearly been doing just that.
PFM18 wrote: You don't think that there is any chance of an alternative explanation?
I'm going to tell you exactly what I told Perhaps. If we're hinging everything on sheer mathematical probability, obviously everything is technically "possible". I don't think that particularly means anything though if there's nothing to support the alternative explanation for the scene in question.

The idea that Goku resorts to Super Saiyan just for shits and giggles when he doesn't need to really is a baseless assumption when there's nothing in the scene that states or implies he was holding back in the first place. It's absolutely baffling to me that I even have to explain this. Hell, it's not even the same situation as Super Saiyan Blue, where the characters repeatedly and directly make it clear that he's suppressing his power in that form. There's just never a direct implication at all for Super Saiyan.

supercat
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:02 am

Bullza wrote:
supercat wrote:Tagoma indicated that Gohan was indeed the strongest of his team.
Which part was this again?
Right after Tagoma blasts Shisami and Gohan, Sorbet begins going off on him about taking out one of their own or whatever. Tagoma then tries to justify his actions by indicating how it was for the purpose of taking down the top warrior or something along those lines. I don't recall the exact wording, but the indication there was strong enough to deduce that Gohan must have been noticeably stronger than Piccolo for Tagoma to drop such a remark. I also doubt skill has anything to do with this as Piccolo is seemingly the most skilled on the team.

supercat
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:23 am

PFM18 wrote:
supercat wrote:By the ToP, both Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto are both likely in a very low-tier as far as strength goes. Techniques such as Candy Beam may assist Buu a tad, but that would likely be as far as it goes. Android 18 wrecked Giant Ribrianne, who had grown stronger since her fight with Base Goku; which by the way, was in no shape or form a walk in the park for Goku. This alone suggests the following:

Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back a good deal of power, we'd still have the following:

Base Goku (full power) = Final Form Frieza > Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku (suppressed) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

So point is, there likely isn't much room for Buu to be relevant when even mid-tier characters like Android 18 are seemingly that powerful.

It's really not that difficult to understand why Base Goku is as strong as he is as it was pretty clear that he absorbed the ritual powers. Plus, all that training that took place between the battle with Beerus and the ToP... Yeah, I'd be quite surprised if Base Goku and Vegeta weren't stronger than Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto.

There are also numerous feats that support this.

-Base Goku fought better against Monaka-Beerus; a version of Beerus that was seemingly putting in far more effort than he did against SSJ3 Goku.

This is the same SSJ3 Goku that was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Beerus only acknowledged Vegeta as being superior to Goku. No such acknowledgement was given to Gohan or Gotenks; a strong implication for the following: Enraged Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Plus, Ultimate Gohan went down so quickly, it's hard grouping him into the same level as Goku.

-Copy Base Vegeta flat-out tanked all of SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks just moments before utterly humiliating him. This implies that there is a huge gap between the two.

-Goku's battle with Hit strongly implies that he had gotten at least 10x stronger between the universe 6 tournament and ToP. Therefore, even if Base Goku just reached SSJ Vegetto-tier sometime in RoF, it's very likely that by the ToP he surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto.

-Piccolo flat-out destroyed SSJ2 Gohan (who could have been pretty close to his Ultimate self), trained some more and got stronger, but was completely useless against Base Goku. My guess is Piccolo is probably somewhere closer to SSJ Vegetto at that time, if not a bit stronger.

So yeah, very unlikely Buu would fare well in the tournament.
I just don't think I am ready to make the leap to say current Android 18>Buu Arc SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't blame you for thinking it but I feel like it may be a bit much. Is she stronger than Buuhan? Yes. Most definitely. SSJ3 Vegetto? Maybe not. I am not entirely convinced that she is stronger than current Base Goku.(Who obviously is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto)
Well Android 18 is a tad confusing at times since we don't know how much Base Goku held back against Ribrianne (if he even held back). I would say at the very least, Android 18 is either comparable to SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga or a tad stronger; basically where I have Piccolo. But again, there's always that chance Goku wasn't holding back; which would mean it's possible that Android 18 (after power up) could actually be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto.

Overall, Android 18 could be either be below or above SSJ3 Vegetto without changing much; but like I said, the lowest I have her is still a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

Android 18 > / = PIccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan or Android 18 > SSJ3 Vegetto >> SSJ2 Vegetto > Piccolo SSJ > / = SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Either of these would work in my opinion.

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.

User avatar
SayianBeyondGod
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:38 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:30 am

Rally 07 wrote:
SayianBeyondGod wrote: So it's possible the first Omen is stronger in power than the second.
Well I disagree with that. Why would the first, initial Ultra Instinct Omen from Super episode 110 be stronger than the second Ultra Instinct Omen from Super episode 116. That really wouldn't make a lot of sense, as Gokou has more than likely grown more powerful from Super episode 110 with a Zenkai Boost being pushed beyond his limits and almost dying fighting against the Genkidama. Also from fighting Kefura. Also I'd like to say that there is more evidence that Gokou has indeed gotten stronger from Super episode 110. And that evidence is from the Kefura vs. Gokou fight. Also looking at Gokou and Kefura's fight for the tenth or so time; I realized Gokou is gotten way stronger from episode 110 and this is apparent with Kefura's kick. With that single kick, that likely rivals the Genkidama, Gokou was able to take that hit. Albeit he was caught by surprise, but he didn't need to transform into Ultra Instinct while breaking and surpassing his limits to counter that kick. Whereas with the Genkidama, he had to break his limits and transform into Ultra Instinct. This is further supported by Whis in episode 116 as he states Kefura's kick incited Gokou and acted as a stimulus for Gokou to break his limits and allowed him to transform into Ultra Instinct just like the Genkidama. So it would make sense the second trigger would be stronger than the first trigger. The second Ultra Instinct would be a lot stronger the the first; which the first surpassed the Genkidama, and this same Genkidama is much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20.
Sorry for the long reply but let's me make a simply response to this. Zenkai boost don't work until the user is full recovered, never in the fight in Kefla Goku had full recovery. In the 2nd use of UI, it was only stated that Goku had better movements not that raw strength has improved or anything alike. That's why he had trouble with his attacks in the second form unlike when he first used it, the only reason why he didn't have such a issue is because he absorbed the genkidama in the first use with gave him enough raw power. Without the genkidama he would've lacked the ki from earlier. I hope you not interperting that SSJ Kefla kick rivals the genkidama since that point gets killed in epsiode 122, when Vegeta claims Jiren has the strongest ki he felt yet wasn't as powerful when rivialling Goku from 110. In other words it pretty much implies that even Goku from episode 110 is stronger than Kefla nor Kefla is surpassing the power a the genkidama that Goku absrobed. Regardless that kicked did force him to break his limit and ignite UI, so I don't what you mean he didn't need to transform. The situation wth the genkidama is the same thing. If you're trying to argue what i think, you don't know if you turn into UI suddenly after being hit by the genkidama, he was litterally in rubble in with low ki. If anything he'a most likley took the force in blue then transformed with a visible power up after a peroid of time.

User avatar
DestructoDisc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 1:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:02 am

It was recently confirmed that Cus (or Kusu, however you prefer to call her) is the oldest among all the angel siblings. Does that mean she's also the strongest one?

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:29 am

You know, I really don't understand why folks are discounting me bringing up the next episode where Goku expresses his desire to use Super Saiyan against Krillin when they're sparring even though Krillin is hammered home as barely able to contend with even Goku's base form while he's suppressed.

It's the same general narrative context, that Goku is bored and wants to spar with his friends and family, but it's actually treated more seriously within the episode itself compared to the previous one since Goku literally doesn't understand why Krillin doesn't want him to turn Super Saiyan for their simple sparring, and there's a big focus on Krillin coming to terms with becoming a martial artist again; the events in this little mini-arc are also referenced again in the Universal Survival Arc where Goku tells Gohan that Krillin's been training and will do better than his son expects, since this little breather arc is the reason why Krillin starts seriously training again.

We also see that Goku often turns into a Super Saiyan when he's training, like the beginning of the show before Beerus wakes up or when he trains with Whis after deeming he's gotten a bit rusty after his encounter with the muggers.

User avatar
DBZ Macky
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 999
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:29 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:45 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:It was recently confirmed that Cus (or Kusu, however you prefer to call her) is the oldest among all the angel siblings. Does that mean she's also the strongest one?
Legal Loli for the win...?
I don't think that confirms anything. Vados is older than Whis, and it's still ambiguous whether one is stronger or the other.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3165
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:06 pm

I honestly don’t understand the need to revive old discussions that were exaustively done on this very thread and by the very same people. It would be productive to move on the last piece of information since the Dragon Ball Super series is already over.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:You know, I really don't understand why folks are discounting me bringing up the next episode where Goku expresses his desire to use Super Saiyan against Krillin when they're sparring even though Krillin is hammered home as barely able to contend with even Goku's base form while he's suppressed.
I think it all comes down to Goku using Super Saiyan when he gets invested into the fight, which naturally makes him stronger than his normal form. It isn’t only a response to a need. But, for what is worth, Base Goku is also capable of taking foes much stronger than him, like SS2 Caulifla, so it’s not impossible that he can’t take on SS Gohan either, specially when his opponent’s movements aren’t very sharp.
DestructoDisc wrote:It was recently confirmed that Cus (or Kusu, however you prefer to call her) is the oldest among all the angel siblings. Does that mean she's also the strongest one?
Thank you for bringing that up. I think their age is a hint to indicate their strength ranking, but as the mortals do they can change that too.

User avatar
DestructoDisc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 1:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:08 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
DestructoDisc wrote:It was recently confirmed that Cus (or Kusu, however you prefer to call her) is the oldest among all the angel siblings. Does that mean she's also the strongest one?
Legal Loli for the win...?
I don't think that confirms anything. Vados is older than Whis, and it's still ambiguous whether one is stronger or the other.
Didn't Vados outright state that she's stronger than Whis? I know that Whis then said that he's stronger than he was before but Vados was still confident that she can defeat him in a fight.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:32 pm

Without using Ultra Instinct, I do wonder how strong the Angels would be.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4141
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:40 pm

supercat wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
supercat wrote:By the ToP, both Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto are both likely in a very low-tier as far as strength goes. Techniques such as Candy Beam may assist Buu a tad, but that would likely be as far as it goes. Android 18 wrecked Giant Ribrianne, who had grown stronger since her fight with Base Goku; which by the way, was in no shape or form a walk in the park for Goku. This alone suggests the following:

Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back a good deal of power, we'd still have the following:

Base Goku (full power) = Final Form Frieza > Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku (suppressed) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

So point is, there likely isn't much room for Buu to be relevant when even mid-tier characters like Android 18 are seemingly that powerful.

It's really not that difficult to understand why Base Goku is as strong as he is as it was pretty clear that he absorbed the ritual powers. Plus, all that training that took place between the battle with Beerus and the ToP... Yeah, I'd be quite surprised if Base Goku and Vegeta weren't stronger than Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto.

There are also numerous feats that support this.

-Base Goku fought better against Monaka-Beerus; a version of Beerus that was seemingly putting in far more effort than he did against SSJ3 Goku.

This is the same SSJ3 Goku that was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Beerus only acknowledged Vegeta as being superior to Goku. No such acknowledgement was given to Gohan or Gotenks; a strong implication for the following: Enraged Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Plus, Ultimate Gohan went down so quickly, it's hard grouping him into the same level as Goku.

-Copy Base Vegeta flat-out tanked all of SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks just moments before utterly humiliating him. This implies that there is a huge gap between the two.

-Goku's battle with Hit strongly implies that he had gotten at least 10x stronger between the universe 6 tournament and ToP. Therefore, even if Base Goku just reached SSJ Vegetto-tier sometime in RoF, it's very likely that by the ToP he surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto.

-Piccolo flat-out destroyed SSJ2 Gohan (who could have been pretty close to his Ultimate self), trained some more and got stronger, but was completely useless against Base Goku. My guess is Piccolo is probably somewhere closer to SSJ Vegetto at that time, if not a bit stronger.

So yeah, very unlikely Buu would fare well in the tournament.
I just don't think I am ready to make the leap to say current Android 18>Buu Arc SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't blame you for thinking it but I feel like it may be a bit much. Is she stronger than Buuhan? Yes. Most definitely. SSJ3 Vegetto? Maybe not. I am not entirely convinced that she is stronger than current Base Goku.(Who obviously is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto)
Well Android 18 is a tad confusing at times since we don't know how much Base Goku held back against Ribrianne (if he even held back). I would say at the very least, Android 18 is either comparable to SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga or a tad stronger; basically where I have Piccolo. But again, there's always that chance Goku wasn't holding back; which would mean it's possible that Android 18 (after power up) could actually be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto.

Overall, Android 18 could be either be below or above SSJ3 Vegetto without changing much; but like I said, the lowest I have her is still a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

Android 18 > / = PIccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan or Android 18 > SSJ3 Vegetto >> SSJ2 Vegetto > Piccolo SSJ > / = SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Either of these would work in my opinion.

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
Goku was holding back. That U2 Rildo look alike took Ribrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit to an exhausted base Goku.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:52 pm

At this point, it's safe to assume that there'll be some kind of main villain that's strong and will be fought.

What I'm wondering is just how strong.

Will he/she be stronger than SSB? Kaioken Blue or Evolved Blue? I'm leaning towards the latter to establish them as a threat to our heroes, but I'm not sure by how much.

supercat
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:13 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
supercat wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I just don't think I am ready to make the leap to say current Android 18>Buu Arc SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't blame you for thinking it but I feel like it may be a bit much. Is she stronger than Buuhan? Yes. Most definitely. SSJ3 Vegetto? Maybe not. I am not entirely convinced that she is stronger than current Base Goku.(Who obviously is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto)
Well Android 18 is a tad confusing at times since we don't know how much Base Goku held back against Ribrianne (if he even held back). I would say at the very least, Android 18 is either comparable to SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga or a tad stronger; basically where I have Piccolo. But again, there's always that chance Goku wasn't holding back; which would mean it's possible that Android 18 (after power up) could actually be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto.

Overall, Android 18 could be either be below or above SSJ3 Vegetto without changing much; but like I said, the lowest I have her is still a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

Android 18 > / = PIccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan or Android 18 > SSJ3 Vegetto >> SSJ2 Vegetto > Piccolo SSJ > / = SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Either of these would work in my opinion.

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
Goku was holding back. That U2 Rildo look alike took Ribrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit to an exhausted base Goku.
Well I was leaning towards the notion that he wasn't going all out against Ribrianne. That said, even if Goku was only using 25% of his base form's full power, Ribrianne would still very likely be SSJ Vegetto-tier (at the very least). Contending with a Base Goku who is only using 20-25% of his power may not seem much now, but it's likely still a lot better than anything Buu saga SSJ Vegetto could have done (given how Base Goku is likely stronger than that same Vegetto's SSJ3).

So at the bare minimum, I have Android 18 a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto but marginally weaker than SSJ2 Vegetto; which again, is more or less where I have Piccolo.

Base Goku (full power) > Android 18 (after power up) > Giant Ribrianne > Android 18 (before power up) = Base Goku (20-25%) > Ribrianne > / = Piccolo > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) = Ultimate Gohan (50-75%) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Honestly, I'm not sure if I should put the Ribrianne that fought Base Goku over Piccolo or not; but given how Piccolo's best feat was merely defeating an SSJ2 Gohan who was likely only comparable to Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), I can't find any reason to move him up.

There's also how Base Goku didn't even bother transforming when Piccolo blasted him; he just tanked the attack like it wasn't much.

A bit off topic, but I also want to add that Tagoma is likely at least SSJ Gotenks-tier. Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, were excited, and immediately rushed in as SSJ Gotenks. Gotenks is known for his overconfidence, so it makes no sense for him to go Super Saiyan unless he felt the power that he sensed was worthy of it.

Post Reply