Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:22 pm

Miracles wrote:You guys are just gonna have to accept the canon fact that Goku was stronger than Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack.
Goku was sandbagging that second arrival and finally used his full power against fused Zamas.
Yep, his full-power arm-breaking Kamehameha that pushed him to the absolute brink compared to Future Trunks and Vegeta both being a bit tired out but still physically fine.

A full-power Kamehameha that broke Goku's arms even as a SSB when Roshi's moon-destroying one back in OG DB didn't even do that to his own body.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:27 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Yep, his full-power arm-breaking Kamehameha that pushed him to the absolute brink compared to Future Trunks and Vegeta both being a bit tired out but still physically fine.

A full-power Kamehameha that broke Goku's arms even as a SSB when Roshi's moon-destroying one back in OG DB didn't even do that to his own body.
Goku was fatigued too while being able to injure fused Zamas unlike Vegeta and Trunks, after overpowering Zamas, he then danced on his face with no arms while using Kaioken to do it. :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:52 pm

Miracles wrote:You guys are just gonna have to accept the canon fact that Goku was stronger than Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack.
Goku was sandbagging that second arrival and finally used his full power against fused Zamas.
Except Vegeta was clearly stronger against Black? Goku didnt even train in between trips to the future

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:40 am


Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
After achieving his Ultimate form and completing his training with Piccolo, Gohan demonstrates he's around the same level in base as Goku. Given SSJ2 acts as a multiplier, Piccolo wrecked a SSJ2 Gohan at a comparable level to pre-ToP SSJ2 Goku.

In regards to his attack during the 2 vs 2 spar, it was clearly one of the joint attacks Gohan and Piccolo talked about practicing at the end of ep. 88. At best, it was meant to push weaker opponents from the ring, while distracting stronger opponents to give Gohan a chance of attacking them head on. Besides the obvious nature of the attack given the events of the previous episodes, it's almost impossible to use a single ki attack to define a character's strength. A number of reasons could cause a character to unleash less energy than they're capable of using, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, the rest of DBS offered little to show the gains Piccolo made since the start of the series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:37 pm

larzooma wrote:

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
After achieving his Ultimate form and completing his training with Piccolo, Gohan demonstrates he's around the same level in base as Goku. Given SSJ2 acts as a multiplier, Piccolo wrecked a SSJ2 Gohan at a comparable level to pre-ToP SSJ2 Goku.

In regards to his attack during the 2 vs 2 spar, it was clearly one of the joint attacks Gohan and Piccolo talked about practicing at the end of ep. 88. At best, it was meant to push weaker opponents from the ring, while distracting stronger opponents to give Gohan a chance of attacking them head on. Besides the obvious nature of the attack given the events of the previous episodes, it's almost impossible to use a single ki attack to define a character's strength. A number of reasons could cause a character to unleash less energy than they're capable of using, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, the rest of DBS offered little to show the gains Piccolo made since the start of the series.
Yeah, I never understood why people say Piccolo is under base Goku based on E90. Freaking Babidi survived Vegeta's suicide attack while being cut in half. A healthty Goku can easily do the same.

There's also Piccolo defeating and calling Gamisaras weak. That right there confirms Piccolo > 18.

We also have a Super writer and the manga implying Frost > Piccolo so that means Piccolo is most likely low to mid tier Super Saiyan level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:52 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
larzooma wrote:

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
After achieving his Ultimate form and completing his training with Piccolo, Gohan demonstrates he's around the same level in base as Goku. Given SSJ2 acts as a multiplier, Piccolo wrecked a SSJ2 Gohan at a comparable level to pre-ToP SSJ2 Goku.

In regards to his attack during the 2 vs 2 spar, it was clearly one of the joint attacks Gohan and Piccolo talked about practicing at the end of ep. 88. At best, it was meant to push weaker opponents from the ring, while distracting stronger opponents to give Gohan a chance of attacking them head on. Besides the obvious nature of the attack given the events of the previous episodes, it's almost impossible to use a single ki attack to define a character's strength. A number of reasons could cause a character to unleash less energy than they're capable of using, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, the rest of DBS offered little to show the gains Piccolo made since the start of the series.
Yeah, I never understood why people say Piccolo is under base Goku based on E90. Freaking Babidi survived Vegeta's suicide attack while being cut in half. A healthty Goku can easily do the same.

There's also Piccolo defeating and calling Gamisaras weak. That right there confirms Piccolo > 18.

We also have a Super writer and the manga implying Frost > Piccolo so that means Piccolo is most likely low to mid tier Super Saiyan level.
The main crux of this particular argument relies on a few things.

First, SS2 Goku is an easy match for an Ultimate Gohan that's been trained further and is implied to be stronger than before. This is before he further shows his true power against SSB Goku, and the recently reawakened Ultimate Gohan easily cut off Piccolo's arm with his hand, so SS2 Goku is already much stronger than SS2 Gohan whom Piccolo was a match for if not surpassed; Goku as a SS2 should definitely be stronger than Piccolo by any stretch of the imagination.

Second, Piccolo's Hyper Explosive Demon Wave is a move that those who are familiar with the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai know all too well, as it was supposed to be Piccolo Jr.'s trump card against Goku back then, when the two were pretty much equal. Piccolo using that move and charging it up drains him pretty well, and similar results were achieved against Goku in the Universal Survival Arc as they were back then during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai; Gohan in his base form with a charged-up fist achieves similar results to Piccolo in terms of making Goku struggle against the force of an attack.

That's not even mentioning a bunch of material from episodes prior establishing Goku's strength being superior to that of Piccolo without transformations, as well as Piccolo and base Gohan being shown as relative peers during the Tournament of Power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:11 pm

PFM18 wrote:Except Vegeta was clearly stronger against Black? Goku didnt even train in between trips to the future
Goku held back in that second trip. Goku didn't use his "full-power" until his showdown with Zamas.
Besides even Black himself stated Goku would be stronger when he returned at their hideout.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:13 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Except Vegeta was clearly stronger against Black? Goku didnt even train in between trips to the future
Goku held back in that second trip. Goku didn't use his "full-power" until his showdown with Zamas.
Besides even Black himself stated Goku would be stronger when he returned at their hideout.
What reason would Goku possibly have to hold back?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:41 pm

I do recall Goku and Vegeta only mentioning using their full power when they destroyed Zamasu's Susanoo cloud.

So I imagine Vegeta was still holding back somewhat even when he stomped Black.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:31 pm

PFM18 wrote:What reason would Goku possibly have to hold back?
He's done it throughout his entire career...For the lulz.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:44 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:What reason would Goku possibly have to hold back?
He's done it throughout his entire career...For the lulz.
In a death battle? I don't remember one single time this happened.

There's also Gowasu saying Black is the strongest non fused fighter in the same episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:What reason would Goku possibly have to hold back?
He's done it throughout his entire career...For the lulz.
In a death battle? I don't remember one single time this happened.

There's also Gowasu saying Black is the strongest non fused fighter in the same episode.
Didn't the show producer also confirm that, without counting the Gods of Destruction, Goku Black is the most powerful non-fused fighter?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote:In a death battle? I don't remember one single time this happened.

There's also Gowasu saying Black is the strongest non fused fighter in the same episode.
Well Goku did it in the Zamas arc in both the anime and manga. Didn't use the full power of Blue till fused Zamas and then finally used Kaioken against him which he held back.
Even in the manga he hid the MSSB + Hakai until the end. He even held back SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:26 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Didn't the show producer also confirm that, without counting the Gods of Destruction, Goku Black is the most powerful non-fused fighter?
That he did. I honestly don't think Goku or Vegeta surpassed Black in equal forms, only matched him.
Miracles wrote: Well Goku did it in the Zamas arc in both the anime and manga. Didn't use the full power of Blue till fused Zamas and then finally used Kaioken against him which he held back.
Even in the manga he hid the MSSB + Hakai until the end. He even held back SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta.
MSSB was not mastered so it makes sense he would be reluctant to use it and his fight with Vegeta wasn't exactly to the death.

Kinda of silly but maybe Goku didn't use Kaioken until E66 is because he was afraid to get his Ki all screwed again. :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:31 pm

larzooma wrote:

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
After achieving his Ultimate form and completing his training with Piccolo, Gohan demonstrates he's around the same level in base as Goku. Given SSJ2 acts as a multiplier, Piccolo wrecked a SSJ2 Gohan at a comparable level to pre-ToP SSJ2 Goku.

In regards to his attack during the 2 vs 2 spar, it was clearly one of the joint attacks Gohan and Piccolo talked about practicing at the end of ep. 88. At best, it was meant to push weaker opponents from the ring, while distracting stronger opponents to give Gohan a chance of attacking them head on. Besides the obvious nature of the attack given the events of the previous episodes, it's almost impossible to use a single ki attack to define a character's strength. A number of reasons could cause a character to unleash less energy than they're capable of using, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, the rest of DBS offered little to show the gains Piccolo made since the start of the series.
At equal forms, Gohan wasn't comparable to Goku until the ToP in my opinion. At best, the Gohan that Piccolo humiliated was comparable to Ultimate Gohan from Buu saga; which by that point, isn't even impressive by any means. Going by how much Base Goku has powered up since he took on the same Copy-Base Vegeta that effortlessly defeated SSJ3 Gotenks, I'd say he could defeat the SSJ2 Gohan that Piccolo defeated far quicker and with far less effort. I honestly think Base Goku by that point is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga).

If Piccolo's attack really was meant for weaker opponents, it just shows that he really isn't much power-wise. The average Tournament of Power fighter seemed far weaker than Base Goku and Vegeta, so for Piccolo to use a charged up attack against opponents of that caliber implies that he too is somewhere around that level of power.

I'm not saying Piccolo's weak by any means; heck, I feel he could easily destroy anyone from the Buu saga. It's just that there are so many stronger fighters at this point that being able to solo everyone from the Buu saga is no longer really an impressive feat in my opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 am

I wouldn't say Goku didn't try his best against Black and Zamasu when they told him what they did to his family, he was not holding back at all and surpassed Black until he got those weird zenkai boosts of his,
I guess he only used Kaioken against Merged Zamasu because he had no other choice, trying it was safer than not doing it. He couldn't move afterwards and needed a senzu.

Vegeta was clearly above Black when he gave that saiyajin cell speech and Black's anger was only able to stall him, my money would still be on Geets if Zamasu got mafuba'd and it all came down to them

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:06 am

SayianBeyondGod wrote:It does considering that total force is being spread out so there's a clear difference of resistance of force when pushing whole area back or puncturing a smaller area of it's spread out force hence weaker force per unit. What you're arguing seems to more so factor the durability of object rather than amount of force dealt with in comparison to surface area. I don't need to argue the relevancy of beam size when one is pushing back more volume than the other.

Again I don't think you understand what I'm arguing, the galick gun is pushing back more volume and surface area of the divine purification, and if you been remembering what I'm telling you force is spread among it's surface area. Think it as this way, a punch can produce 800 psi but that's just per inch not the entire surface area of the fist or the force from the entire fist. With the Kamekameha it's pushing through a fraction of the volume/area of the divine purification with it still being intact and stationary after penetration. Rest of it's surface area with it's force is still there and wasn't overcome at all.
"Galick Gun pushing back more surface area"..."force is spread among surface area"..."Kamehameha pushing through a fraction of area"..."rest of its surface area with its force still there"...I think you’re right that I don’t understand your argument. It's like you think the force is a pie and the Galick Gun ate more of it, and are conflating it with pressure. The only reason to talk about the spread of force is at it relates to the pressure the Kamehameha/Galick Gun applied. Galick Gun vs Holy Wrath, Kamehameha vs Holy Wrath — the force from the Holy Wrath they dealt with was the same. And if that force wasn't overcome, then they wouldn't have clashed; it would have just kept bearing down towards them. Why was it stationary?
But regardless I don't like this example as the human body has a specific durability limit and is going to correlate less with how much force is going to be overcome. Here's a better example using the same objects which would being easier to push back, assuming person is moving as well, A) the rod up against the person torso hence pushing his entire body or B) the rod against a specific area such as head or arm.
What doesn’t have a specific durability? The Holy Wrath did at any rate.

Which is easier to push? What’s this a better example of?
We do, hence the orange emiting flash which is the same color of explosion the divine purification had later and what it's colour.
Emitting flash. The explosion later. Or maybe you meant right before it explodes? No colors are the same except that of the smoke.
The purple light is when the galick gun is begining to consume the divine purification and exploded was completely consumed and hit Zamasu.
This is the tip of the Galick Gun. It can’t be when it begins to consume the Holy Wrath as it’s already right in his face.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:32 pm

Can't believe people are having such a hard time accepting that Vegeta is inferior to Goku when that's been the status quo for most of the series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:29 pm

They seemed equal to me with Goku having the more impressive showing because he really pushed himself so hard that he wrecked his arms.

Vegeta could have probably done the same if he were so willing. The Final Flash against Jiren was sort of like that in a way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:58 am

Just saw manga leaks.

Dis gon be gud.

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